PCT website updated

[From Dag Forssell (2005.04.27.13.20 PST)]

I have updated http://www.livingcontrolsystems.com/.

If anyone notices something I have missed, or something that does not work, please send me a note. I am particularly interested in having a rather complete list of PCT applications, since the first question people ask is: "So what, what are the applications."

Note that while several websites feature downloadable PCT demos, just about all of these are the DOS diskettes that I put together in 1994. The threads I put together in that same time frame were featured as text files with beautiful ASCII figures. Where my threads are featured at the official website and perhaps other places, they don't display properly as html files. When I post them in the next several months, they will display properly.

The demos featured at my publishing website (and at www.pctresources.com as soon as I find time to put that together too, with much more from the archives) are thoroughly reviewed for functionality. The documentation is nicely formatted for readability. I worked intensely with Bill P. on all that about a year ago.

Best, Dag

[From Rick Marken (2005.04.28.1540)]

Dag Forssell (2005.04.27.13.20 PST)

I have updated http://www.livingcontrolsystems.com/ .

If anyone notices something I have missed, or something that does not work,
please send me a note.

Very nice site. I'm thrilled to see that there is a collection of papers on
Control Theory in Sociology, edited by Kent McClelland no less, scheduled
for publication in 2006.

I am kind of surprised, though that you include Sociology and Cybernetics
but not Psychology in your list of topics that you describe as
"Applications� Who is using PCT" at

http://www.livingcontrolsystems.com/files/applications_pct.html

Of course, I'm a psychologist, so that may have something to do with it;-)
But by not including Psychology in your list of "Applications" I think you
are leaving out a lot of people (besides myself) who are or have been using
PCT for quite some time and whose work, I think, should be mentioned.
Psychologists that come to mind are Dick Robertson, Wayne Hershberger, Tom
Bourbon, Jeff Vancouver, Ray Pavloski, Isaac Kurtzer, Gary Cziko and Dan
Palmer. I'm sure there are many more. Some of these people may not be active
in CSG anymore. But, then, neither is Kent, and he made the cut (as I think
he should have).

Best regards

Rick

···

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MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

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[From Dag Forssell (2005.04.28.2130)]

[From Rick Marken (2005.04.28.1540)]
<snip>
I am kind of surprised, though that you include Sociology and Cybernetics
but not Psychology in your list of topics that you describe as
"Applications� Who is using PCT" at

During the day today, I changed it to Applications; using insight from PCT

Is psychology an "application" of PCT? I thought PCT *is* psychology (the successor to contemporary versions). Is psychology something you apply to itself? I have never heard you claim that you apply PCT in your life, least of all on CSGnet. If Dick Robertson applies PCT in his counseling practice, does that fall under MOL? What does he call it? What makes it an application? How do any of the other people you mention apply PCT to psychology?

Sociologists lean on psychology for their theoretical framework, and the point of the forthcoming volume is that they find contemporary psychology wanting, so I think that is an application.

Please clarify.

Best, Dag

[From Rick Marken (2005.04.28.2200)]

Dag Forssell (2005.04.28.2130)--

Rick Marken (2005.04.28.1540)
<snip>
I am kind of surprised, though that you include Sociology and Cybernetics
but not Psychology in your list of topics that you describe as
"Applications� Who is using PCT" at

During the day today, I changed it to Applications; using insight from PCT

Is psychology an "application" of PCT? I thought PCT *is* psychology (the successor to contemporary versions). Is psychology something you apply to itself? I have never heard you claim that you apply PCT in your life, least of all on CSGnet. If Dick Robertson applies PCT in his counseling practice, does that fall under MOL? What does he call it? What makes it an application? How do any of the other people you mention apply PCT to psychology?

Sociologists lean on psychology for their theoretical framework, and the point of the forthcoming volume is that they find contemporary psychology wanting, so I think that is an application.

I knew there was a good explanation;-)

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Rick Marken (2005.04.29.1130)]

Dag Forssell (2005.04.28.2130)

Please clarify.

Sorry, it was late (for me) last night so I didn't catch this request. I
thought you were just explaining your basis for putting some and not other
PCT related stuff up at your site as an example of the application of PCT.
But apparently you did want clarification, presumably in answer to some
questions you asked (which seemed rhetorical, through by bleary eyes. But
now I see that they were actual question, so I'll try to answer them.

You say:

Is psychology an "application" of PCT?

No, no more than sociology. Psychology (like sociology, economics, etc)
refers to a particular domain of observations. Psychology (at least the part
of it that I find interesting) consists of observations of individual human
behavior. Sociology consists of observations of group behavior. Economics
focuses on group behavior related to the production and consumption of goods
and services. People have applied PCT in all of these domains.

I thought PCT *is* psychology (the successor to contemporary versions).

That would be nice if it were true. But I'm afraid very few people see it
this way. PCT is just one of several contending models that have been used
to explain behavior.

Is psychology something you apply to itself?

Of course not. PCT is a model that can be used (applied) to explain
phenomena that are in the domain of observations labeled "psychology".

I have never heard you claim that you apply PCT in your life, least
of all on CSGnet.

Well, actually, I do apply my general understanding of PCT in my everyday
life (when I have the poise to do so), particularly my understanding of the
hierarchical nature of perception and control.

If Dick Robertson applies PCT in his counseling practice,
does that fall under MOL?

That is surely one way Dick has applied PCT. He has also done what I think
is an excellent application of PCT to understanding learning and the
phenomenon of learning plateaus.

What does he call it?

He probably calls MOL "MOL".

What makes it an application?

He is applying his understanding of the hierarchical nature of perception
and control to what he does in therapy sessions.

How do any of the other people you mention apply PCT to psychology?

They have all applied it in the same way that the sociologists presumably
apply it: as a model to explain the phenomena in which they are interested.

Sociologists lean on psychology for their theoretical framework, and the
point of the forthcoming volume is that they find contemporary psychology
wanting, so I think that is an application.

But all the psychologists I mentioned also find contemporary psychology
wanting. That's why it seemed to me that one had to be something other than
a psychologist in order to "make the cut" as one who applies PCT.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
Home: 310 474 0313
Cell: 310 729 1400

--------------------

This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
may contain privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
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of the original message.

From Dick Robertson,2005.05.01.1420CDT

Well, since I'm mentioned here let me chime in on the subject of
Psychology and PCT applications. I do indeed apply PCT in my work as a
clinical psychology (as does also David Goldstein, Tim and various of
our other members), for me at least not just MOL although I used it as
part of my armamentarium. And I agree that PCT can be thought of as
offering a "new" psychology. But, others have pointed out in the past
that PCT, as a theory of behavior, can underlie a lot of
disciplines--neurology, evolutionary biology, neuro biology, economics,
sociology, political science, etc.
I think it would be a good idea to mention psychology as one of the
fields in which PCT is gradually spreading as the behavioral foundation.

Best,

Dick R

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Dag Forssell <team@FORSSELLTRANS.COM>
Date: Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:42 pm
Subject: Re: PCT website updated

[From Dag Forssell (2005.04.28.2130)]

>[From Rick Marken (2005.04.28.1540)]
><snip>
>I am kind of surprised, though that you include Sociology and
>but not Psychology in your list of topics that you
describe as
>"Applications? Who is using PCT" at

During the day today, I changed it to Applications; using insight
from PCT

Is psychology an "application" of PCT? I thought PCT *is*
psychology (the
successor to contemporary versions). Is psychology something you
apply to
itself? I have never heard you claim that you apply PCT in your
life, least
of all on CSGnet. If Dick Robertson applies PCT in his counseling
practice,
does that fall under MOL? What does he call it? What makes it an
application? How do any of the other people you mention apply PCT
to
psychology?

Sociologists lean on psychology for their theoretical framework,
and the
point of the forthcoming volume is that they find contemporary
psychology
wanting, so I think that is an application.

Please clarify.

Best, Dag