perceiving PCT; "information in the perception"

[Hans Blom, 941213]

(Bill Leach 941212.16:24 EST(EDT))

Thank you for expressing your perception of PCT. There are some things
that I recognize, and some things that I experienced differently. I finish
with a correction of you remarks about "information in the perception".

The real shocks [after becoming acquainted with PCT] started coming
after I obtained somewhat of a "handle" on PCT basic and began dealing
with the implications... The range and number of "cherished" beliefs
whose "fundmental" foundations are at least "rocked" if not outright
blasted away is, I think, far greater than one can imagine. Indeed,
such continues to happen as one makes an effort to apply PCT principles
to all thinking about human behaviour.

It is strange how different people experience things differently. When I
read Bill Powers' B:CP, my introduction to PCT (I accidentally discovered
B:CP in the library of my Department, Electrical Engineering!), I got a
eureka-shock as well, but it was of a different nature. B:CP did NOT
"blast away" any of my old preconceptions; rather, it gave me an ADDI-
TIONAL perspective on how organisms function, myself included. I have felt
no need -- and do not feel any yet -- to throw away what I have learned
before; I only needed to REINTERPRET things from this new point of view. I
am therefore not, to the dismay of some, a "convert" to PCT, but -- to use
an analogy -- like a Christian who discovers the deep truths of Buddhism;
rather than relinquishing my old faith, this new discovery gives me a
better, clearer, deeper appreciation of my old faith as well. Call me a
synthesist...

The often made analogy of PCT versus conventional psychology with Newton-
ian versus pre-Newtonian celestial mechanics strikes me as a bit awkward,
especially since Einstein, who told us that it is perfectly acceptable to
talk about the sun circling the earth, the added perspective now being an
explicit recognition of the importance of the position of the observer.
"It's all perception", Einstein might have said.

I am beginning to think that the learning and understanding of the
basics of PCT is the minor step. The major "step" begins when one
starts seeing how virtually everything that one has understood about
anything (including oneself) is all affected by the principles
underlying PCT.

How very true. The new perspective needs to be integrated with all of our
pre-existing notions.

I have received similar shocks -- eureka's -- upon my discovery of other
theories as well: psychoanalysis, evolution theory, and Popper's falsifi-
cation theory, to name the few that jump to mind right now. All these
intuitively appealed to me immediately as kernels of deep understanding.
Not THE truth, mind you, but of valid perspectives on "truth", however
mutually irreconcilable they may seem superficially, and are, in details.

The following on "information in the perception" needs to be modified,
however. I don't know whether you have designed (classical) adaptive
controllers, those systems with dual functions -- to control AND to learn
(how to control better) -- but at least in that arena your remarks need to
be qualified:

Since I was pretty strongly in the middle of much of this last round of
"information in the perception"...

1) What we agreed to was that there would be information about a
    disturbance in the perception to the extent that control system
    gain was insufficient to cancle the effects of the disturbance
    upon the environmental parameter that was the object of the
    control.

Modified: A perfectly controlling system cannot learn, because there is no
information in its perception (only random noise). A control system CAN
learn as long as it does not control perfectly; in that case there will be
a systematic effect (i.e. information) in its perceptions. A very simple
example from classical control theory: in a proportional controller with a
finite gain and a constant setpoint there is a systematic non-zero offset
between setpoint and feedback signal (perception). This systematic offset
can be adapted away (made zero on average) by adding an integral component
to the controller. This is true even if the offset is much smaller than
the noise amplitude.

4) It is currently impossible to even conceive of actually measuring
    any of the necessary signals to make use of this "information".

This is simply not true. See the above example where this "information"
can be used to adapt the gain of the integral component in such a way that
a minimum offset results. This "information" is used to the hilt in adapt-
ive controllers.

5) The whole matter is one of idle curiosity and not relevant to PCT.

At least those who think that LEARNING (adaptation) is important, will
disagree. Adaptation isolates and uses the "information in the perception"
in order to tune the controller so that better performance -- a smaller
average offset -- results. Note that as an effect of this tuning, the
"information in the perception" disappears; IT IS USED. So those who speak
of there being no information in the perception are right only in the
extreme case: a fully adapted/correctly tuned controller.

Some simple adaptation schemes that every control engineer will be fami-
liar with implicitly use this principle. They add a dither or a pseudo-
random noise sequence to the controller's output. This extra noise
certainly does not improve the short-term control performance, of course:
it is an extra disturbance. Yet such an imperfection in control is what is
required if learning/adaptation is to be possible. What it does is some-
thing akin to establishing a gradient that the system can "climb".

Does this link with classical control schemes make sense to you?

Greetings,

Hans

<[Bill Leach 941214.18:12 EST(EDT)]

[Hans Blom, 941213]

It is strange how different people experience things differently. When I
read Bill Powers' B:CP, my introduction to PCT (I accidentally
discovered B:CP in the library of my Department, Electrical
Engineering!), I got a eureka-shock as well, but it was of a different
nature. B:CP did NOT "blast away" any of my old preconceptions; rather,
it gave me an ADDITIONAL perspective on how organisms function, myself
included. I have felt no need -- and do not feel any yet -- to throw
away what I have learned before; I only needed to REINTERPRET things
from this new point of view. I am therefore not, to the dismay of some,
a "convert" to PCT, but ...

There is some similarity in what you said to what I experienced. I was
profoundly relieved by B:CP and it's confirmation of the applicability of
physical sciences to behaviour. The very idea that control theory could
and did explain much of behaviour was a "breath of fresh air" to me. I
was nearly euphoric. However, following the initial "honeymoon" can the
"harsh realization" that a great deal of what I believed to be "truths"
was either flatly wrong or irrelevant. Both of which turned out (for me
at least) to seem much more profound than the initial understanding that
physical science could explain (to a major degree at least) behaviour.

The often made analogy of PCT versus conventional psychology with
Newtonian versus pre-Newtonian celestial mechanics strikes me ...

I agree and further agree with Rick when he says that the comparison is
insufficient.

How very true. The new perspective needs to be integrated with all of
our pre-existing notions.

This might also be a matter of interpretation of terms. It seems to me
that "integrating" "pre-existing notions" is "OK", but one has to
remember that the pre-existing notions may be completely wrong or (again)
irrelevant.

I have received similar shocks -- eureka's -- upon my discovery of other
theories as well: ...

So have I but the only one that really stands out for me is relativity.

The following on "information in the perception" needs to be modified,
however. ...

Since I was pretty strongly in the middle of much of this last round of
"information in the perception"...

Things might have been clearer if I had stated a little more background
information concerning the discussions.

Modified: A perfectly controlling system cannot learn, because there is
no information in its perception (only random noise). A control system
CAN learn as long as it does not control perfectly; in that case there
will be a systematic effect (i.e. information) in its perceptions.

There are two things "wrong" with this. The first is that a "perfectly
controlling system cannot have ANY noise or it is not perfectly
controlling. The second is that a living control system MUST perceive
its "lack of control" in order to become "adaptive". That is, there is
"no outside observer" to develop a "better control algorithm" if the
living control system does not perceive that control is not perfect.

4) It is currently impossible to even conceive of actually measuring
    any of the necessary signals to make use of this "information".

This is simply not true. See the above example where this "information"
can be used to adapt the gain of the integral component in such a way
that a minimum offset results. This "information" is used to the hilt in
adaptive controllers.

In this case it was absolutely true as we were specifically talking about
human control systems (which of course I did not mention again in my post
to you).

5) The whole matter is one of idle curiosity and not relevant to PCT.

At least those who think that LEARNING (adaptation) is important, will
disagree. Adaptation isolates and uses the "information in the
perception" in order to tune the controller so that better performance
-- a smaller average offset -- results. Note that as an effect of this
tuning, the "information in the perception" disappears; IT IS USED. So
those who speak of there being no information in the perception are
right only in the extreme case: a fully adapted/correctly tuned
controller.

Some simple adaptation schemes that every control engineer will be fami-
liar with implicitly use this principle. They add a dither or a pseudo-
random noise sequence to the controller's output. This extra noise
certainly does not improve the short-term control performance, of
course: it is an extra disturbance. Yet such an imperfection in control
is what is required if learning/adaptation is to be possible. What it
does is something akin to establishing a gradient that the system can
"climb".

Does this link with classical control schemes make sense to you?

Yes, they do and possibly there is something to learn from such
techniques. It seems rather doubtful however, that many if any of the
"advanced" signal processing techniques are actually employed by living
systems internally for control. For one thing, it seems that living
control systems tolerate rather "large" control errors (when compared to
engineered control systems). These "large" control errors do not often
seem to produce "stress" in the organism which implies to me that the
organism is not likely to "reorganize" to "improve" control.

If there is any experimental evidence that indicates that living control
systems employ statistical averaging, noise analysis, etc. I would be
interested in hearing about it.

-bill