physiologic or intrinsic error and stress

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···

On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 11:54 AM Bruce Nevin bnhpct@gmail.com wrote:

Sorry, I have no interpretation of those words making any connection to the TCV or PCT. If you want to propose something, you’ll have to be more explicit, with more context.

On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 12:41 PM PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

the word stress an interpreted variableÂ

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 11:24 AM Bruce Nevin bnhpct@gmail.com wrote:

That question doesn’t make sense.Â

In a straightforward reading, the Test for controlled variables can only be ‘applied to’ a control system, to find out what variable or variables it is controlling. A word is obviously not a control system.

In an indirect reading, you might be asking whether Bill had guessed that the word ‘stress’ was a controlled variable in some way, e.g. its presence or absence in a certain context being a disturbance; or you might be asking whether Bill had guessed that something about the word ‘stress’ could be used a disturbance to Test whether or not some other variable was under control. There are indefinitely many other possibilities, but to understand any of them requires more context.

On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 4:47 PM PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

did bill apply the TCV to the word stress?Â

On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 8:01 AM Bruce Nevin bnhpct@gmail.com wrote:

The term intrinsic variable comes from Ashley, so it’s hard to call its choice the result of Bill avoiding use of the word ‘stress’. Without the concept of intrinsic error, also from Ashley, the hierarchical model has a problem with infinite regress. Whatever term you choose to use, that term has to denote reference levels for variables that can be disturbed from those levels by persistent failure to control somewhere in the hierarchy. No consensually established meaning of the word stress has that denotation.

/B

On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 2:09 PM PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

the substitution is an ad hoc thing. i believe that Bill specifically intended to not write the word stress and i am wondering if perhaps this would be interesting to analyze from a TCV perspective.


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On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 4:48 AM Bruce Nevin csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[Bruce Nevin 2018-12-23_12:46:39 UTC]

Philip Yeranosian Dec 21, 2018, 9:34 AM–

By substituting ‘stress’ for intrinsic error, are you pointing to a potential area of research that you’re interested in working on? Let’s inquire what it might be.

PY: the word stress … has more connotations

Connotations are perceptions that are associated in memory with a given perception. Some connotations kind of normal or expected, those that are affirmed by more than one person in a community. Intersubjective agreement is the basis of what we call objectivity, but in general connotations, like associative memories in general, are subjective. A lot of the work in a field of science is making sure that intersubjective agreements in the field have a valid basis (though as we know it’s perception and therefore intersubjective ‘all the way down’). But even in science, connotations, analogies, metaphors, and so forth can suggest alternative avenues of research or alternative ways of organizing findings and integrating them into a theory. They suggest lines of work, but then the work still has to be done. So what connotations are you interested in, and why do they matter for PCT?

What does ‘stress’ mean?

stress

—stressless, adj. —stresslessness, n.

  /stres/, n.

    1. importance or significance attached to a thing; emphasis: to lay stress upon good manners.

    2. Phonet. emphasis in the form of prominent relative loudness of a syllable or a word as a result of special effort in utterance.

    3. Pros. accent or emphasis on syllables in a metrical pattern; beat.

    4. emphasis in melody, rhythm, etc.; beat.

    5. the physical pressure, pull, or other force exerted on one thing by another; strain.

    6. Mech.

       a. the action on a body of any system of balanced forces whereby strain or deformation results.

       b. the amount of stress, usually measured in pounds per square inch or in pascals.

       c. a load, force, or system of forces producing a strain.

       d. the internal resistance or reaction of an elastic body to the external forces applied to it.

       e. the ratio of force to area.

    7. Physiol. a specific response by the body to a stimulus, as fear or pain, that disturbs or interferes with the normal physiological equilibrium of an organism.

    8. physical, mental, or emotional strain or tension: Worry over his job and his wife’s health put him under a great stress.

    9. a situation, occurrence, or factor causing this: The stress of being trapped in the elevator gave him a pounding headache.

   10. Archaic. strong or straining exertion.

I think you are concerned with definitions 7 and 8 of the word ‘stress’. From that point of view, the other definitions may be connotations or they may be irrelevant (e.g. the phonetic and poetic meanings). Of course, in PCT we don’t talk about response to a stimulus, we talk about the physiological consequences of control being frustrated by persistent disturbances. As Warren, Tim, and colleagues have shown, such disturbances are very often a consequence of internal conflict.

Definitions 8 and 9 allude to subjective experience of the phenomena that are roughly indicated by definition 7. We don’t have any model of how rates of firing in nerve bundles are experienced subjectively. Setting that essential mystery aside, the body states that result from ongoing control being persistently disturbed may be perceived, those perceptions evoke other perceptions from memory, which may be elaborated by imagination, with further evocations from memory, and so on, until at some point we become aware of having a ‘feeling’ which we may further perceive as an emotion (B:CP Chapter 17, the 2005 edition). We have no definition or model of “we”, the experiencer, nor of the awareness that “we” have. It’s a problem left for the student, a Zen koan to contemplate.

‘Intrinsic variable’ and ‘intrinsic error’ have specific definitions that are established by intersubjective agreement in PCT (a field of science). The observed physiological consequences that the theory attributes to intrinsic error, and the subjective experiences that we call feelings and emotions, are phenomena that we seek to explain with the theory. By substituting ‘stress’ for intrinsic error, you’re pointing to a potential area of research. Is that what you’re interested in working on?

/Bruce

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:34 AM PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

begin to imagine evolution as the following model: DNA or protein is a series or frequency of words and for each occurrence of a particular word, we are replacing that word with another word. Â Â


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Please substitute the word stress for the word physiologic or intrinsic error. in chapter 14 of B:CoP. Reorganization is the reduction of stress.

stress is a word. Imagine chapter 14 as a series of words and for each occurrence of the word intrinsic error please substitute the word stress. it has more connotations

begin to imagine evolution as the following model: DNA or protein is a series or frequency of words and for each occurrence of a particular word, we are replacing that word with another word.

[Bruce Nevin 2018-12-23_12:46:39 UTC]

Philip Yeranosian Dec 21, 2018, 9:34 AM–

By substituting ‘stress’ for intrinsic error, are you pointing to a potential area of research that you’re interested in working on? Let’s inquire what it might be.

PY: the word stress … has more connotations

Connotations are perceptions that are associated in memory with a given perception. Some connotations kind of normal or expected, those that are affirmed by more than one person in a community. Intersubjective agreement is the basis of what we call objectivity, but in general connotations, like associative memories in general, are subjective. A lot of the work in a field of science is making sure that intersubjective agreements in the field have a valid basis (though as we know it’s perception and therefore intersubjective ‘all the way down’). But even in science, connotations, analogies, metaphors, and so forth can suggest alternative avenues of research or alternative ways of organizing findings and integrating them into a theory. They suggest lines of work, but then the work still has to be done. So what connotations are you interested in, and why do they matter for PCT?

What does ‘stress’ mean?

stress

—stressless, adj. —s€”stresslessness, n.

  /stres/, n.

    1. importance or significance attached to a thing; emphasis: to lay stress upon good manners.

    2. Phonet. emphasis in the form of prominent relative loudness of a syllable or a word as a result of special effort in utterance.

    3. Pros. accent or emphasis on syllables in a metrical pattern; beat.

    4. emphasis in melody, rhythm, etc.; beat.

    5. the physical pressure, pull, or other force exerted on one thing by another; strain.

    6. Mech.

       a. the action on a body of any system of balanced forces whereby strain or deformation results.

       b. the amount of stress, usually measured in pounds per square inch or in pascals.

       c. a load, force, or system of forces producing a strain.

       d. the internal resistance or reaction of an elastic body to the external forces applied to it.

       e. the ratio of force to area.

    7. Physiol. a specific response by the body to a stimulus, as fear or pain, that disturbs or interferes with the normal physiological equilibrium of an organism.

    8. physical, mental, or emotional strain or tension: Worry over his job and his wife’s health put him under a great stress.

    9. a situation, occurrence, or factor causing this: The stress of being trapped in the elevator gave him a pounding headache.

   10. Archaic. strong or straining exertion.

I think you are concerned with definitions 7 and 8 of the word ‘stress’. From that point of view, the other definitions may be connotations or they may be irrelevant (e.g. the phonetic and poetic meanings). Of course, in PCT we don’t talk about response to a stimulus, we talk about the physiological consequences of control being frustrated by persistent disturbances. As Warren, Tim, and colleagues have shown, such disturbances are very often a consequence of internal conflict.

Definitions 8 and 9 allude to subjective experience of the phenomena that are roughly indicated by definition 7. We don’t have any model of how rates of firing in nerve bundles are experienced subjectively. Setting that essential mystery aside, the body states that result from ongoing control being persistently disturbed may be perceived, those perceptions evoke other perceptions from memory, which may be elaborated by imagination, with further evocations from memory, and so on, until at some point we become aware of having a ‘feeling’ which we may further perceive as an emotion (B:CP Chapter 17, the 2005 edition). We have no definition or model of “we”, the experiencer, nor of the awareness that “we” have. It’s a problem left for the student, a Zen koan to contemplate.

‘Intrinsic variable’ and ‘intrinsic error’ have specific definitions that are established by intersubjective agreement in PCT (a field of science). The observed physiological consequences that the theory attributes to intrinsic error, and the subjective experiences that we call feelings and emotions, are phenomena that we seek to explain with the theory. By substituting ‘stress’ for intrinsic error, you’re pointing to a potential area of research. Is that what you’re interested in working on?

···

/Bruce

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:34 AM PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

begin to imagine evolution as the following model: DNA or protein is a series or frequency of words and for each occurrence of a particular word, we are replacing that word with another word. Â Â