Pierce and Control

[From Rick Marken (2011.02.07.1820)]

The diagram from “Man’s world of sound” that Gavin Ritz sent me is, indeed, quite interesting; a good example for the book Gary Cziko and I were going to write called “Not Quite PCT”. Unlike many other control diagrams from the period (1950s and 60s) Pierce correctly maps a control system to behavior. Most important, the reference signal is shown as being in the brain; it’s usually shown as being out in the environment as the “target” that is to be matched with the tracking cursor. Pierce also gets the fact that it is a perception (of speech in this case) that is compared to the reference and that it is the difference between perception (which he calls “feedback”) and reference that drives output.

Unfortunately, Pierce doesn’t quite get the idea that it’s the perception of speech that is controlled (kept at the reference) and that that is really what speech is, a set of controlled perceptions. The reason he doesn’t get this is clear from reading his description of the control process that is diagrammed. He thinks of the control process as sequential; feedback is compared to reference which then drives motor output, the feedback result of which is then fed back to be compared again to the reference. What he is describing is a “bang-bang” control system that is functioning as a learning system with the reference as the criterion for learning. The error leads to revision of the output; this constant revision process eventually produces a system that can produce speech sans feedback. Indeed, Pierce says this explicitly: “After the learning process has been completed… the auditory feedback mechanism is no longer a requisite to speaking.” So his is a model of learned speech with the resulting speech behavior being open-loop.

So Pierce was close but he couldn’t overcome the open-loop causal zeitgeist of his time, just as contemporary psychologists are unable to do the same these days. Close but, I’m afraid, no cigar.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.08.15.28)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.02.07.1820)]

Your comments are correct, as I said there’s
no theory behind his comments and it also has no controlled variable. His
comments about once one has learned to speak it’s no longer required are
really nonsensical.

But I have not seen any other diagrammatic
representation with a reference signal and comparator in the brain.

The diagram from “Man’s world of sound” that Gavin Ritz
sent me is, indeed, quite interesting; a good example for the book Gary Cziko
and I were going to write called “Not Quite PCT”. Unlike many other
control diagrams from the period (1950s and 60s) Pierce correctly maps a
control system to behavior. Most important, the reference signal is shown as
being in the brain; it’s usually shown as being out in the environment as the
“target” that is to be matched with the tracking cursor. Pierce also
gets the fact that it is a perception (of speech in this case) that is compared
to the reference and that it is the difference between perception (which he
calls “feedback”) and reference that drives output.

Unfortunately, Pierce doesn’t quite get the idea that it’s the perception of
speech that is controlled (kept at the reference) and that that is really what
speech is,

a set of controlled
perceptions.

Speech is the controlled variable.

This comment is I believe the hardest part
for most people to get their heads around. Once this concept of PCT is grasped
then the rest falls into place. But let me say this concept is not well
described in the books on PCT at all.

The reason he doesn’t get
this is clear from reading his description of the control process that is
diagrammed. He thinks of the control process as sequential; feedback is
compared to reference which then drives motor output, the feedback result of
which is then fed back to be compared again to the reference. What he is
describing is a “bang-bang” control system that is functioning as a
learning system with the reference as the criterion for learning. The error
leads to revision of the output; this constant revision process eventually
produces a system that can produce speech sans feedback. Indeed, Pierce
says this explicitly: “After the learning process has been completed…
the auditory feedback mechanism is no longer a requisite to speaking.” So
his is a model of learned speech with the resulting speech behavior being
open-loop.

So Pierce was close but he couldn’t overcome the open-loop causal zeitgeist of
his time, just as contemporary psychologists are unable to do the same these
days. Close but, I’m afraid, no cigar.

Didn’t know there were any prizes up
for graps.

Regards

Gavin

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.02.08.0930)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.02.08.15.28) re Rick Marken (2011.02.07.1820)

Your comments are correct, as I said there�s no theory behind his comments and it also has no controlled variable.

I think there is a theory behind his comments: open-loop causal
theory. That's why there is no controlled variable. The "feedback" in
his diagram would be the controlled variable (some function of the
feedback, anyway) but Pierce can't see that because he is seeing
things from an open-loop causal point of view, which sees input
(feedback) as a cause rather than a controlled result of action.

But I have not seen any other diagrammatic representation with a reference signal and comparator in the brain.

I agree. That aspect of the diagram is really good. He was sooo close.

Speech is the controlled variable.

Well, that's a little vague. I think speech involves the control of
many perceptual variables simultaneously.� Understanding speech (from
a PCT perspective) is a matter of figuring out what variables are
controlled, and how they are controlled. Certainly, various functions
of the auditory signal are controlled. But the fact that we can speak
when we can't hear what we are saying (as in "The King's Speech";
great movie) suggests that there are other perceptions that are
controlled when we speak, such as the perception of� the position and
change of position of our various articulators (tongue, palates, lips,
etc).� Determining the variables that are being controlled in
behaviors we see as "speech", "catching fly balls" (see�Marken, R. S.
(2001) Controlled Variables: Psychology as the Center Fielder Views
It, American Journal of Psychology, 114, 259-281 to see the possible
controlled variables involved in catching fly balls and ways to
determine which are actually controlled), etc. is what PCT is all
about. Determining what variables are being controlled and how they
are being controlled when organisms behave is, I think, the main goal
of understanding behavior from a PCT perspective

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.09.11.22NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.02.08.0930)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.02.08.15.28) re Rick Marken (2011.02.07.1820)

Your comments are correct, as I said
there’s no theory behind his comments and it also has no controlled
variable.

I think there is a theory behind his comments:
open-loop causal

theory. That’s why there is no controlled variable.
The “feedback” in

his diagram would be the controlled variable (some
function of the

feedback, anyway) but Pierce can’t see that because he is seeing

things from an open-loop causal point of view, which
sees input

(feedback) as a cause rather than a controlled result
of action.

But I have not seen any other diagrammatic
representation with a reference signal and comparator in the brain.

I agree. That aspect of the diagram is really good. He
was sooo close.

Speech is the controlled variable.

Well, that’s a little vague.

That’s why I say it’s
all nested. There are levels of abstraction.

I think speech involves the control of

many perceptual variables simultaneously.

There is no doubt about
that

Understanding speech (from

a PCT perspective) is a matter of figuring out what
variables are

controlled, and how they are controlled.

Touche

Certainly, various functions

of the auditory signal are controlled. But the fact
that we can speak

when we can’t hear what we are saying (as in “The
King’s Speech”;

great movie) suggests that there are other perceptions
that are

controlled when we speak, such as the perception
of the position and

change of position of our various articulators
(tongue, palates, lips,

etc).

All of this and more,
sight is also a controlled variable too, in fact language is a mix of all the
energies (sight, {photons}, sound {phonons}, chemical {taste} etc.

Not to mention the very
fabric of all, logic (imperative, declarative and interrogative). Which was probably
here even before the Big Bang, how is PCT going to incorporate this is another issue
altogether.

In an older thread I put
together the very basics of how HPCT should look, from Mathematical Category
Theory and Topoi logic.

Determining the variables that are being controlled in

behaviors we see as “speech”, “catching
fly balls” (see Marken, R. S.

(2001) Controlled Variables: Psychology as the Center
Fielder Views

It, American Journal of Psychology, 114, 259-281 to
see the possible

controlled variables involved in catching fly balls
and ways to

determine which are actually controlled), etc. is what
PCT is all

about. Determining what variables are being controlled
and how they

are being controlled when organisms behave is, I
think, the main goal

of understanding behavior from a PCT perspective

I couldn’t have
said it better myself.

There’s a lot of
work to be done.

Regards

Gavin

Best

Rick

···

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

Gavin, please continue to contribute your insights to this discussion list. I am determined to catch up with you in spite of the different language that we both use for the same ideas.

For example, you define logic in terms of the imperative, declarative and interrogative. I define it in terms of the classical, intuitionistic, and linear (i.e., Linear logic - Wikipedia).

In any event, for those on this list who share an interest in the connections between computation, logic, topology, and physics, I encourage you to check out this publication:

Physics, Topology, Logic and Computation: A Rosetta Stone (Baez and Stay, 2008)

Cheers,
Chad

Chad Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633

Gavin Ritz <garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ> 2/8/2011 5:35 PM >>>

(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.09.11.22NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2011.02.08.0930)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.02.08.15.28) re Rick Marken (2011.02.07.1820)

Your comments are correct, as I said there's no theory behind his comments

and it also has no controlled variable.

I think there is a theory behind his comments: open-loop causal

theory. That's why there is no controlled variable. The "feedback" in

his diagram would be the controlled variable (some function of the

feedback, anyway) but Pierce can't see that because he is seeing

things from an open-loop causal point of view, which sees input

(feedback) as a cause rather than a controlled result of action.

But I have not seen any other diagrammatic representation with a reference

signal and comparator in the brain.

I agree. That aspect of the diagram is really good. He was sooo close.

Speech is the controlled variable.

Well, that's a little vague.

That's why I say it's all nested. There are levels of abstraction.

I think speech involves the control of

many perceptual variables simultaneously.

There is no doubt about that

  Understanding speech (from

a PCT perspective) is a matter of figuring out what variables are

controlled, and how they are controlled.

Touche

Certainly, various functions

of the auditory signal are controlled. But the fact that we can speak

when we can't hear what we are saying (as in "The King's Speech";

great movie) suggests that there are other perceptions that are

controlled when we speak, such as the perception of the position and

change of position of our various articulators (tongue, palates, lips,

etc).

All of this and more, sight is also a controlled variable too, in fact
language is a mix of all the energies (sight, {photons}, sound {phonons},
chemical {taste} etc.

Not to mention the very fabric of all, logic (imperative, declarative and
interrogative). Which was probably here even before the Big Bang, how is PCT
going to incorporate this is another issue altogether.

In an older thread I put together the very basics of how HPCT should look,
from Mathematical Category Theory and Topoi logic.

Determining the variables that are being controlled in

behaviors we see as "speech", "catching fly balls" (see Marken, R. S.

(2001) Controlled Variables: Psychology as the Center Fielder Views

It, American Journal of Psychology, 114, 259-281 to see the possible

controlled variables involved in catching fly balls and ways to

determine which are actually controlled), etc. is what PCT is all

about. Determining what variables are being controlled and how they

are being controlled when organisms behave is, I think, the main goal

of understanding behavior from a PCT perspective

I couldn't have said it better myself.

There's a lot of work to be done.

Regards

Gavin

Best

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

( Gavin
Ritz 2011.02.11.10.24NZT)

Hi there Chad

Whoever wrote the Wiki on
logic is trying to confuse the whole world about logic. I like things simple so
I can understand it.

Any language is only made
of three types of logical statements and nothing else.

·
Declarative (a statement, e.g. the girl’s
hair is black), it’s either true or false- this really makes up most of
scientific proofs. Basis of mathematics. Set Theory. Proven to be a problem by Gödel.
Often called propositional logic

·
Imperative (a command, e.g. Fix this tap)
it’s either structure or process; there is no accepted calculus for this.
But this logic connects all of living organism. A mate of mine has developed a calculus
which you have. This cannot be true or false.

·
Interrogative (a question, Is this a gun?)
it’s either yes or no and plus statement responses. (basis of black hole
entropy)

Each of these types of
logic is connected by logical connectives and there are only 4 of them. They are
like musical notes they repeat on many levels of abstraction. From concrete
objects to categories of categories of categories.

·
Or-or

·
And-and

·
If-then

·
If-and-only-if.

For example in PCT the reference
signal is like a command, so it’s an imperative logical operator. It sort
of commands the “controlled variable”.

That’s why I have
said there is mathematics to prove PCT both holistically (using mathematical category
theory and Topoi logic for the HPCT) and Fractal mathematics, and internally by
imperative logical calculus developed by a colleague of mine.

Logic is the foundations
of science, maths, and all communication, it’s content free and has a
form (fabric) which I mention above.

Once one becomes aware of
it in a general discourse one is able to discern what types of arguments people
are putting up.

It’s the basis of Elliot Jaques measuring
instrument in Human capability and in some ways it forms the basis of HPCT. (Mentioned
in another thread).

A linear logical
statement would be connected by or-or and by and-and connective and a non linear
one by “if-then” and “if-and-only-if”.

Hope this helps.

Interesting article
below. Hard going.

Regards

Gavin

Gavin, please continue to contribute your insights to
this discussion list. I am determined to catch up with you in spite of the
different language that we both use for the same ideas.

For example, you define logic in terms of the
imperative, declarative and interrogative. I define it in terms of the
classical, intuitionistic, and linear (i.e.,
Linear logic - Wikipedia).

In any event, for those on this list who share an
interest in the connections between computation, logic, topology, and physics,
I encourage you to check out this publication:

Physics, Topology, Logic and Computation: A Rosetta
Stone (Baez and Stay,
2008)

Cheers,

Chad

Chad Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ
2/8/2011 5:35 PM

(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.09.11.22NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.02.08.0930)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.02.08.15.28) re Rick Marken (2011.02.07.1820)

Your comments are correct, as I said there’s no
theory behind his comments

and it also has no controlled variable.

I think there is a theory behind his comments:
open-loop causal

theory. That’s why there is no controlled variable.
The “feedback” in

his diagram would be the controlled variable (some
function of the

feedback, anyway) but Pierce can’t see that because he is seeing

things from an open-loop causal point of view, which
sees input

(feedback) as a cause rather than a controlled result
of action.

But I have not seen any other diagrammatic
representation with a reference

signal and comparator in the brain.

I agree. That aspect of the diagram is really good. He
was sooo close.

Speech is the controlled variable.

Well, that’s a little vague.

That’s why I say it’s all nested. There are levels of
abstraction.

I think speech involves the control of

many perceptual variables simultaneously.

There is no doubt about that

Understanding speech (from

a PCT perspective) is a matter of figuring out what
variables are

controlled, and how they are controlled.

Touche

Certainly, various functions

of the auditory signal are controlled. But the fact
that we can speak

when we can’t hear what we are saying (as in “The
King’s Speech”;

great movie) suggests that there are other perceptions
that are

controlled when we speak, such as the perception of
the position and

change of position of our various articulators
(tongue, palates, lips,

etc).

All of this and more, sight is also a controlled
variable too, in fact

language is a mix of all the energies (sight,
{photons}, sound {phonons},

chemical {taste} etc.

Not to mention the very fabric of all, logic
(imperative, declarative and

interrogative). Which was probably here even before
the Big Bang, how is PCT

going to incorporate this is another issue altogether.

In an older thread I put together the very basics of
how HPCT should look,

from Mathematical Category Theory and Topoi logic.

Determining the variables that are being controlled in

behaviors we see as “speech”, “catching
fly balls” (see Marken, R. S.

(2001) Controlled Variables: Psychology as the Center
Fielder Views

It, American Journal of Psychology, 114, 259-281 to
see the possible

controlled variables involved in catching fly balls
and ways to

determine which are actually controlled), etc. is what
PCT is all

about. Determining what variables are being controlled
and how they

are being controlled when organisms behave is, I
think, the main goal

of understanding behavior from a PCT perspective

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

There’s a lot of work to be done.

Regards

Gavin

Best

Rick

···

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

(John Kirkland 2011.02.11.21.14NZT)

Just for fun Chad, if you flip the last figure across the horizontal
plane it's then 911.

It's a very tidy summary Gavin, ta.

JohnK

···

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 8:24 PM, Gavin Ritz <garritz@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.11.10.24NZT)

Hi there Chad

Whoever wrote the Wiki on logic is trying to confuse the whole world about
logic. I like things simple so I can understand it.

Any language is only made of three types of logical statements and nothing
else.

��������� Declarative (a statement, e.g. the girl�s hair is black), it�s
either true or false- this really makes up most of scientific proofs. Basis
of mathematics. Set Theory. Proven to be a problem by G�del. Often called
propositional logic

��������� Imperative (a command, e.g. Fix this tap) it�s either structure or
process; there is no accepted calculus for this. But this logic connects all
of living organism. A mate of mine has developed a calculus which you have.
This cannot be true or false.

��������� Interrogative (a question, Is this a gun?) it�s either yes or no
and plus statement responses. (basis of black hole entropy)

Each of these types of logic is connected by logical connectives and there
are only 4 of them. They are like musical notes they repeat on many levels
of abstraction. From concrete objects to categories of categories of
categories.

��������� Or-or

��������� And-and

��������� If-then

��������� If-and-only-if.

For example in PCT the reference signal is like a command, so it�s an
imperative logical operator. It sort of commands the �controlled variable�.

That�s why I have said there is mathematics to prove PCT both holistically
(using mathematical category theory and Topoi logic for the HPCT) and
Fractal mathematics, and internally by imperative logical calculus developed
by a colleague of mine.

Logic is the foundations of science, maths, and all communication, it�s
content free and has a form (fabric) which I mention above.

Once one becomes aware of it in a general discourse one is able to discern
what types of arguments people are putting up.

It�s the basis of Elliot Jaques measuring instrument in Human capability and
in some ways it forms the basis of HPCT. (Mentioned in another thread).

A linear logical statement would be connected by or-or and by and-and
connective and a non linear one by �if-then� and �if-and-only-if�.

Hope this helps.

Interesting article below. Hard going.

Regards

Gavin

Gavin, please continue to contribute your insights to this discussion list.
I am determined to catch up with you in spite of the different language that
we both use for the same ideas.

For example, you define logic in terms of the imperative, declarative and
interrogative.� I define it in terms of the classical, intuitionistic, and
linear (i.e., Linear logic - Wikipedia).

In any event, for those on this list who share an interest in the
connections between computation, logic, topology, and physics, I encourage
you to check out this publication:

Physics, Topology, Logic and Computation: A Rosetta Stone (Baez and Stay,
2008)

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/rosetta.pdf

Cheers,

Chad

Chad Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1633

Gavin Ritz <garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ> 2/8/2011 5:35 PM >>>

(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.09.11.22NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2011.02.08.0930)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.02.08.15.28) re Rick Marken (2011.02.07.1820)

Your comments are correct, as I said there's no theory behind his comments

and it also has no controlled variable.

�I think there is a theory behind his comments: open-loop causal

theory. That's why there is no controlled variable. The "feedback" in

his diagram would be the controlled variable (some function of the

feedback, anyway) but Pierce can't see that because he is seeing

things from an open-loop causal point of view, which sees input

(feedback) as a cause rather than a controlled result of action.

But I have not seen any other diagrammatic representation with a reference

signal and comparator in the brain.

I agree. That aspect of the diagram is really good. He was sooo close.

Speech is the controlled variable.

Well, that's a little vague.

That's why I say it's all nested. There are levels of abstraction.

I think speech involves the control of

many perceptual variables simultaneously.

There is no doubt about that

� Understanding speech (from

a PCT perspective) is a matter of figuring out what variables are

controlled, and how they are controlled.

Touche

Certainly, various functions

of the auditory signal are controlled. But the fact that we can speak

when we can't hear what we are saying (as in "The King's Speech";

great movie) suggests that there are other perceptions that are

controlled when we speak, such as the perception of� the position and

change of position of our various articulators (tongue, palates, lips,

etc).

All of this and more, sight is also a controlled variable too, in fact

language is a mix of all the energies (sight, {photons}, sound {phonons},

chemical {taste} etc.

Not to mention the very fabric of all, logic (imperative, declarative and

interrogative). Which was probably here even before the Big Bang, how is PCT

going to incorporate this is another issue altogether.

In an older thread I put together the very basics of how HPCT should look,

from Mathematical Category Theory and Topoi logic.

Determining the variables that are being controlled in

behaviors we see as "speech", "catching fly balls" (see Marken, R. S.

(2001) Controlled Variables: Psychology as the Center Fielder Views

It, American Journal of Psychology, 114, 259-281 to see the possible

controlled variables involved in catching fly balls and ways to

determine which are actually controlled), etc. is what PCT is all

about. Determining what variables are being controlled and how they

are being controlled when organisms behave is, I think, the main goal

of understanding behavior from a PCT perspective

I couldn't have said it better myself.

There's a lot of work to be done.

Regards

Gavin

Best

Rick

--

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com