[From Rick Marken (2000.10.09.0745)]
Bruce Abbott (2000.10.08.1920 EST)--
So what you are claiming is that all those pleasurable and
unpleasurable things you wrote about evoke no feelings in
you of pleasure or displeasure.
When I pay attention to what I am perceiving I don't notice
separate perceptions that I would call pleasure or displeasure.
Maybe what you are calling "evoked feelings of pleasure" are the
visceral sensations (perceptions) that accompany certain other
perceptions. Parts of Beethoven's 3rd and 5th piano concertos
reliably evoke in me extremely pleasant visceral sensations.
These sensations could be called "pleasure" perceptions but
so could the auditory perceptions that constitute the concerto
itself. And I find many pieces of music to be just as pleasurable
as the 3rd and 5th piano concertos even though they don't evoke
the pleasant visceral sensations of the 3rd and 5th.
A massage may be another example of what you mean by "feelings
of pleasure". But even while getting a massage, the perceptions
I am enjoying are just the perceptions resulting from the massage
itself; there are no separate pleasure perceptions. The massage
perceptions _are_ the pleasure perceptions, just as the the Bach
D minor _is_ the pleasure perception. At least, that's the way
it seems to me when I am "looking at" my perceptions carefully.
Me:
My introspection led me to the conclusion that I just happen to
like having certain perceptions at certain times . . .
I also _dislike_ having certain perceptions,
Bruce:
Perhaps those feelings of liking or disliking are the conscious
manifestations of precisely the evaluative signals we are talking
about . . .
Perhaps. Maybe my introspect ions are being driven by my concept
of how the PCT model works. I was trying to think about my
"pleasure" experiences in the way Bill discussed these experiences
in his post. I found it to be a very interesting way to look at
my own experiences. When I was experiencing something I liked
(which was generally just about everything since I had little
trouble getting most of my perceptions to and/or keeping them at
my references for them) I would just "look at" what the liked
or pleasurable perception was; what I saw was just the perception
itself. When I ate an Oreo cookie, the perceptions I liked were
the taste and feel of the cookie; that _was_ the pleasure of
an Oreo for me.
Anyway, my introspect ions have no force on your model; I hope
you go ahead and develop it into a working simulation. Maybe
perceptions of pleasure are needed to get the model to do
whatever it is you want it to do. I'm not sure what that is
at the moment but I think I'll understand once I see the model
in action.
Best
Rick
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Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
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