Politics and Levels of Control

[From Bill Powers (2012.04.23.1410 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2012.04.22.1805) --

RM: While we cannot control successfully by acting in any way we want, we
can only control if we are free to act in those ways that will allow
us to produce the results we intend to produce while protecting those
results from disturbance. That is, we have to be able to vary our
actions in the dimensions of variation that will allow control of the
results we intend to control. The possible dimensions of variation of
actions relevant to control are called degrees of freedom. In order to
control successfully the relevant degrees of freedom relevant to
controlling a particular result have to be free to vary. We can't
control the cursor in a tracking task, for example, if we can't move
the mouse back and forth -- or if moving it back and forth has no
effect on the cursor (because it's not plugged into the computer,
say). But it doesn't help us control the cursor if we are free to act
in other ways that have no effect on the cursor. So what's important
to control is not freedom per se but having the relevant degrees of
freedom available.

BP: Yes, that sounds solid. You can go a little further in that direction. The idea that "it's all perception' sounds like an open door to solipsism, but when you add that we have to learn which actions will have the effects we want on the perceptions we want to control, the Real World suddenly makes an appearance. We can't just make up arbitrary rules and expect them to work. We may not know how Real Reality actually works or looks, but it is definitely there, constraining the possible actions that will have the effects we want.

There's still another side to this 3D coin. The degrees of freedom of the Real World are much more numerous than those we can perceive. This means that there is almost always more than one way to skin a cat. Two people seeking to control the same kind of variable can actually find quite different ways that will work.

RM: This more nuanced view of "freedom" in terms of degrees of freedom can
be stated more easily by saying that what people (and all organisms,
for that matter) need is the ability to control the results that
matter to them; that is, organisms should be able to produce the
results that they want and need to produce. Once control -- rather
than "freedom" -- is seen as what everyone must have then an analysis
of the optimal way to structure a society becomes more coherent
because control theory tell us what prevents control -- insuperable
disturbance (taking away degrees of freedom), lack of skill and
conflict -- and what increases it -- preparation, education and
cooperation.

BP: This "optimal way" still doesn't have to be the same for everyone. There is still freedom to choose among alternatives which are different but which accomplish the same ends. Communism and Capitalism could live peacefully side-by-side if we just tweaked the parameters a little. I don't have to take any particular road to get to Boulder; in fact there would be an infinite number of different paths if I had infinite time to find them. I don't disturb anyone else (usually) by choosing any one of them; I just drive in different traffic.

So there are lots of variations on how to achieve goals and what subgoals to achieve, and which ones we choose matters mainly to ourselves. This takes us to the ultimate constraint on freedom: our own individual natures.

At each level, I am free to choose goals, but they will have to be those which meet the demands of my next level up. It's always the next level up that determines what we are free to do. And at the top, or somewhere, there is a top level, a most important level anyway, that translates billions of years of learning and evolution into the basic perceptual signals that we always try to keep in states dictated by our genes. As Tom Bourbon once put it, a living system will always change itself in ways that matter to it the least in order to keep control of the aspects of itself that matter the most.

We can't choose the intrinsic variables that matter the most to us, can we? Maybe we can. But as soon as we say that, the question arises, "By what criteria do we choose?" Behind all this is our real nature whatever that is. We are born with it. It's the hand we are dealt.

I have a feeling that this doesn't take us to the end of the road.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2012.04.27.1530)]

Let me see if I can re-start this thread with a question to anyone
willing to answer: Can you give me an example of a belief of yours
that you would be willing to change for a "good reason" and a belief
that you would not be willing to change no matter what?

I will start it off:

I would be willing to change my belief that taxes should be highly
progressive if I saw evidence that flattening the tax rate improved
the lot of most people in society.

I would be willing to change my belief that behavior is the control of
perception if I were shown evidence that some (or all) behavior is
not.

I would not be willing to change my belief in the value of moving
society toward one where all people have access to the best healthcare
available, all people have enough money to live comfortably, with
anxiety, where all people have access to the education they want/need,
the housing they want/need, the safety/security they want need. In
other words, nothing will convince me to give up my belief in the
value of working towards a society where everyone is "in control" of
their lives.

Best

Rick

···

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2012.04.23.1410 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2012.04.22.1805) --

RM: While we cannot control successfully by acting in any way we want, we

can only control if we are free to act in those ways that will allow
us to produce the results we intend to produce while protecting those
results from disturbance. That is, we have to be able to vary our
actions in the dimensions of variation that will allow control of the
results we intend to control. The possible dimensions of variation of
actions relevant to control are called degrees of freedom. In order to
control successfully the relevant degrees of freedom relevant to
controlling a particular result have to be free to vary. We can't
control the cursor in a tracking task, for example, �if we can't move
the mouse back and forth -- or if moving it back and forth has no
effect on the cursor (because it's not plugged into the computer,
say). But it doesn't help us control the cursor if we are free to act
in other ways that have no effect on the cursor. So what's important
to control is not freedom per se but having the relevant degrees of
freedom available.

BP: Yes, that sounds solid. You can go a little further in that �direction.
The idea that "it's all perception' sounds like an open door to solipsism,
but when you add that we have to learn which actions will have the effects
we want on the perceptions we want to control, the Real World suddenly makes
an appearance. We can't just make up arbitrary rules and expect them to
work. We may not know how Real Reality actually works or looks, but it is
definitely there, constraining the possible actions that will have the
effects we want.

There's still another side to this 3D coin. The degrees of freedom of the
Real World are much more numerous than those we can perceive. This means
that there is almost always more than one way to skin a cat. Two people
seeking to control the same kind of variable can actually find quite
different ways that will work.

RM: This more nuanced view of "freedom" in terms of degrees of freedom can

be stated more easily by saying that what people (and all organisms,
for that matter) need is the ability to control the results that
matter to them; that is, organisms should be able to produce the
results that they want and need to produce. �Once control -- rather
than "freedom" -- is seen as what everyone must have then an analysis
of the optimal way to structure a society becomes more coherent
because control theory tell us what prevents control -- insuperable
disturbance (taking away degrees of freedom), lack of skill and
conflict -- and what increases it -- preparation, education and
cooperation.

BP: This "optimal way" still doesn't have to be the same for everyone. There
is still freedom to choose among alternatives which are different but which
accomplish the same ends. Communism and Capitalism could live peacefully
side-by-side if we just tweaked the parameters a little. I don't have to
take any particular road to get to Boulder; in fact there would be an
infinite number of different paths if I had infinite time to find them. I
don't disturb anyone else (usually) by choosing any one �of them; I just
drive in different traffic.

So there are lots of variations on how to achieve goals and what subgoals to
achieve, and which ones we choose matters mainly to ourselves. This takes us
to the ultimate constraint on freedom: our own individual natures.

At each level, I am free to choose goals, but they will have to be those
which meet the demands of my next level up. It's always the next level up
that determines what we are free to do. And at the top, or somewhere, there
is a top level, a most important level anyway, that translates billions of
years of learning and evolution into the basic perceptual signals that we
always try to keep in states dictated by our genes. As Tom Bourbon once put
it, a living system will always change itself in ways that matter to it the
least in order to keep control of the aspects of itself that matter the
most.

We can't choose the intrinsic variables that matter the most to us, can we?
�Maybe we can. But as soon as we say that, the question arises, "By what
criteria do we choose?" Behind all this is our real nature whatever that is.
We are born with it. It's the hand we are dealt.

I have a feeling that this doesn't take us to the end of the road.

Best,

Bill P.

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com