Powers on Free Will and Consciousness

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.0930)]

RM: This is a reply to Lynndal Daniels’ post to Tim Carey’s MOL discussion group but I think my reply might be of interest to everyone interested in PCT so I’m posting it to both the MOL and CSGNet discussion groups. Lynndal asks:

image281.png

PowersSystemsConsciousness.pdf (1.41 MB)

···

LD: I recently saw some conversation on the CSG group going on in regards to “Free Willâ€? and whether it was an illusion or not. So, I know there are some fairly strong opinions out there.  Did Powers opine on the existence or non-existence of Free Will or was that something that wasn’t part of PCT. Â

RM: This reminded me that I had seen a mention of free will in one of Bill’s papers that I had read way back when I was first getting into PCT, in about 1979 (turns out it actually had to be about 1980). I remember finding a chapter by Bill in book on consciousness in which he said something like “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”. So I went looking for that chapter and found a reference to it in LCS I. It was paper entitled “A systems approach to consciousness” and it was a chapter in a collection of papers edited by R. J and J. M Davidson. The title of the book was listed in LCS I as “The Psychology of Consciousness” but after some futile searching for the book under that title I somehow learned that the actual title of the book is “The Psychobiology of Consciousness”.Â

RM: I was unable to get a copy of Bill’s chapter directly from the net but fortunately I am able to get articles using a library service provided by Antioch University, where I teach part time, so I managed to get a copy that way. It’s attached to this message. After reading it several times I finally managed to find the section where Bill mentions free will; it’s in section 3.4 but I’ll save you the trouble of trying to find it; it is at the end of the following paragraph:Â

RM: It was surprisingly difficult for me to find this mention of free will because, as you can see, my memory of what Bill said was somewhat different that what he actually said. I was remembering the meaning, not the exact words (which is interesting in itself; what I stored was a higher level perception of meaning rather than the lower level perception of the text). The “intellectual debates” Bill is referring to are debates about “determinism versus free will”. So I clearly replaced “intellectual debates” with its meaning – “determinism versus free will” – in memory and came up with the remembered perception “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”.Â

RM: To understand what Bill means in the paragraph quoted above you have to read the whole chapter, particularly that last section where he discusses “point of view” as the aspect of us that is outside the inner determinism of the control of input structure of behavior and thought. The fact that we are able to vary our point of view on our hierarchical structure of perception (as we do in MOL) is an aspect of human nature that is not yet explained by PCT; what varies our point of view is, as Bill says just before the Conclusion section, i"Something that is not yet represented in the model". It is this “something” that is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet. Actually, the book has been written – it’s Behavior: The Control of Perception – it’s just that few people working to understand consciousness have read it, much less understood it.

RM: I thank Lynndal for jogging my memory of this paper. I haven’t read it in over 30 years and for some reason it didn’t make the cut to be reprinted in LCS I or II. But re-reading it reminded me of how brilliant, lucid and straightforward Bill was. This paper is really a masterpiece that anyone interested in PCT should read. And re-read because there is much gold to be mined in it. Â

BestÂ

Rick

PS. I sure hope it’s in the Powers archive at Northwestern.Â


Richard S. MarkenÂ

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of  Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human

Thank you Rick! Bill classic is still in storage (now for many
years). While I have not forgotten how delightful reading or
discussing things with Bill was, this article reminds my of why I
was so ‘smitten’ by him!

image281.png

···

On 05/20/2016 10:30 AM, Richard Marken
wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.0930)]

      RM: This is a reply to Lynndal Daniels' post to Tim Carey's

MOL discussion group but I think my reply might be of interest
to everyone interested in PCT so I’m posting it to both the
MOL and CSGNet discussion groups. Lynndal asks:

                LD: I recently saw some

conversation on the CSG group going on in regards to
“Free Willâ€? and whether it was an illusion or not.Â
So, I know there are some fairly strong opinions out
there.  Did Powers opine on the existence or
non-existence of Free Will or was that something
that wasn’t part of PCT. Â

          RM: This reminded me that I had seen a mention of free

will in one of Bill’s papers that I had read way back when
I was first getting into PCT, in about 1979 (turns out it
actually had to be about 1980). I remember finding a
chapter by Bill in book on consciousness in which he said
something like “free will is the last chapter of a book
that hasn’t been written yet”. So I went looking for that
chapter and found a reference to it in LCS I. It was paper
entitled “A systems approach to consciousness” and it was
a chapter in a collection of papers edited by R. J and J.
M Davidson. The title of the book was listed in LCS I as
“The Psychology of Consciousness” but after some futile
searching for the book under that title I somehow learned
that the actual title of the book is “The Psychobiology of
Consciousness”.Â

          RM: I was unable to get a copy of Bill's chapter

directly from the net but fortunately I am able to get
articles using a library service provided by Antioch
University, where I teach part time, so I managed to get a
copy that way. It’s attached to this message. After
reading it several times I finally managed to find the
section where Bill mentions free will; it’s in section 3.4
but I’ll save you the trouble of trying to find it; it is
at the end of the following paragraph:Â

        RM: It was surprisingly difficult for me to find this

mention of free will because, as you can see, my memory of
what Bill said was somewhat different that what he actually
said. I was remembering the meaning, not the exact words
(which is interesting in itself; what I stored was a higher
level perception of meaning rather than the lower level
perception of the text). The “intellectual debates” Bill is
referring to are debates about “determinism versus free
will”. So I clearly replaced “intellectual debates” with its
meaning – “determinism versus free will” – in memory and
came up with the remembered perception “free will is the
last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”.Â

        RM: To understand what Bill means in the paragraph quoted

above you have to read the whole chapter, particularly that
last section where he discusses “point of view” as the
aspect of us that is outside the inner determinism of the
control of input structure of behavior and thought. The fact
that we are able to vary our point of view on our
hierarchical structure of perception (as we do in MOL) is an
aspect of human nature that is not yet explained by PCT;
what varies our point of view is, as Bill says just before
the Conclusion section, i"Something that is not yet
represented in the model". It is this “something” that is
the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet.
Actually, the book has been written – it’s Behavior: The
Control of Perception – it’s just that few people working
to understand consciousness have read it, much less
understood it.

        RM: I thank Lynndal for jogging my memory of this paper.

I haven’t read it in over 30 years and for some reason it
didn’t make the cut to be reprinted in LCS I or II. But
re-reading it reminded me of how brilliant, lucid and
straightforward Bill was. This paper is really a masterpiece
that anyone interested in PCT should read. And re-read
because there is much gold to be mined in it. Â

BestÂ

Rick

        PS. I sure hope it's in the Powers archive at

Northwestern.Â


Richard S. MarkenÂ

                        Author, with Timothy A. Carey,

of  Controlling
People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being
Human

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.1910)]

image281.png

···

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Bill Leach wrleach@cableone.net wrote:

Thank you Rick!  Bill classic is still in storage (now for many

years). While I have not forgotten how delightful reading or
discussing things with Bill was, this article reminds my of why I
was so ‘smitten’ by him!

RM: Me too! I worked so closely with him I came to think of him as just a nice normal person; I knew he was smart but I forgot that he was a genius, a true genius. When I first read the paper, back in 1980, I knew it was good – really good – but I think I really appreciate the genius of it now because I understand control theory a heck of a lot better now than I did back then and I also know, because I worked with him so much, the thoughts that were behind Bill’s words when he wrote them back then. It’s like the Dylan lyric from Tangled Up in Blue:Â

And every one of them words rang true

And glowed like burning coal

Pouring of of every pageÂ

Like it was written in my soul from me to you.Â

(Yes, I know every Dylan song by heart, if it was written before 1976;-)

RM: Nice to hear from you, Bill. It’s been a long time. Bill Powers’ daughters are working hard to arrange a CSG meeting at Northwestern U in August 2017. I hope you can make it!

BestÂ

RickÂ

  On 05/20/2016 10:30 AM, Richard Marken

wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.0930)]

      RM: This is a reply to Lynndal Daniels' post to Tim Carey's

MOL discussion group but I think my reply might be of interest
to everyone interested in PCT so I’m posting it to both the
MOL and CSGNet discussion groups. Lynndal asks:


Richard S. MarkenÂ

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of  Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human

                LD: I recently saw some

conversation on the CSG group going on in regards to
“Free Willâ€? and whether it was an illusion or not.Â
So, I know there are some fairly strong opinions out
there.  Did Powers opine on the existence or
non-existence of Free Will or was that something
that wasn’t part of PCT. Â

          RM: This reminded me that I had seen a mention of free

will in one of Bill’s papers that I had read way back when
I was first getting into PCT, in about 1979 (turns out it
actually had to be about 1980). I remember finding a
chapter by Bill in book on consciousness in which he said
something like “free will is the last chapter of a book
that hasn’t been written yet”. So I went looking for that
chapter and found a reference to it in LCS I. It was paper
entitled “A systems approach to consciousness” and it was
a chapter in a collection of papers edited by R. J and J.
M Davidson. The title of the book was listed in LCS I as
“The Psychology of Consciousness” but after some futile
searching for the book under that title I somehow learned
that the actual title of the book is “The Psychobiology of
Consciousness”.Â

          RM: I was unable to get a copy of Bill's chapter

directly from the net but fortunately I am able to get
articles using a library service provided by Antioch
University, where I teach part time, so I managed to get a
copy that way. It’s attached to this message. After
reading it several times I finally managed to find the
section where Bill mentions free will; it’s in section 3.4
but I’ll save you the trouble of trying to find it; it is
at the end of the following paragraph:Â

        RM: It was surprisingly difficult for me to find this

mention of free will because, as you can see, my memory of
what Bill said was somewhat different that what he actually
said. I was remembering the meaning, not the exact words
(which is interesting in itself; what I stored was a higher
level perception of meaning rather than the lower level
perception of the text). The “intellectual debates” Bill is
referring to are debates about “determinism versus free
will”. So I clearly replaced “intellectual debates” with its
meaning – “determinism versus free will” – in memory and
came up with the remembered perception “free will is the
last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”.Â

        RM: To understand what Bill means in the paragraph quoted

above you have to read the whole chapter, particularly that
last section where he discusses “point of view” as the
aspect of us that is outside the inner determinism of the
control of input structure of behavior and thought. The fact
that we are able to vary our point of view on our
hierarchical structure of perception (as we do in MOL) is an
aspect of human nature that is not yet explained by PCT;
what varies our point of view is, as Bill says just before
the Conclusion section, i"Something that is not yet
represented in the model". It is this “something” that is
the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet.
Actually, the book has been written – it’s Behavior: The
Control of Perception – it’s just that few people working
to understand consciousness have read it, much less
understood it.

        RM: I thank Lynndal for jogging my memory of this paper.

I haven’t read it in over 30 years and for some reason it
didn’t make the cut to be reprinted in LCS I or II. But
re-reading it reminded me of how brilliant, lucid and
straightforward Bill was. This paper is really a masterpiece
that anyone interested in PCT should read. And re-read
because there is much gold to be mined in it. Â

BestÂ

Rick

        PS. I sure hope it's in the Powers archive at

Northwestern.Â


Richard S. MarkenÂ

                        Author, with Timothy A. Carey,

of  Controlling
People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being
Human

[From Fred Nickols (2016.05.21.0818 ET)]

Rick: Many thanks for sending along Bill’s paper. It is indeed a gold mine; one such nugget was finally clarifying for me the “behavioral illusion.� I have underlined and marked several lines and sections. This one I really like: “The traditional statistical approach cannot reveal controlled consequences.�

Thanks again.

Fred Nickols

image00240.png

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 12:30 PM
To: mol@mail-list.com; csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Cc: Richard Marken
Subject: Powers on Free Will and Consciousness

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.0930)]

RM: This is a reply to Lynndal Daniels’ post to Tim Carey’s MOL discussion group but I think my reply might be of interest to everyone interested in PCT so I’m posting it to both the MOL and CSGNet discussion groups. Lynndal asks:

LD: I recently saw some conversation on the CSG group going on in regards to “Free Will� and whether it was an illusion or not. So, I know there are some fairly strong opinions out there. Did Powers opine on the existence or non-existence of Free Will or was that something that wasn’t part of PCT.

RM: This reminded me that I had seen a mention of free will in one of Bill’s papers that I had read way back when I was first getting into PCT, in about 1979 (turns out it actually had to be about 1980). I remember finding a chapter by Bill in book on consciousness in which he said something like “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”. So I went looking for that chapter and found a reference to it in LCS I. It was paper entitled “A systems approach to consciousness” and it was a chapter in a collection of papers edited by R. J and J. M Davidson. The title of the book was listed in LCS I as “The Psychology of Consciousness” but after some futile searching for the book under that title I somehow learned that the actual title of the book is “The Psychobiology of Consciousness”.

RM: I was unable to get a copy of Bill’s chapter directly from the net but fortunately I am able to get articles using a library service provided by Antioch University, where I teach part time, so I managed to get a copy that way. It’s attached to this message. After reading it several times I finally managed to find the section where Bill mentions free will; it’s in section 3.4 but I’ll save you the trouble of trying to find it; it is at the end of the following paragraph:

Inline image 2

RM: It was surprisingly difficult for me to find this mention of free will because, as you can see, my memory of what Bill said was somewhat different that what he actually said. I was remembering the meaning, not the exact words (which is interesting in itself; what I stored was a higher level perception of meaning rather than the lower level perception of the text). The “intellectual debates” Bill is referring to are debates about “determinism versus free will”. So I clearly replaced “intellectual debates” with its meaning – “determinism versus free will” – in memory and came up with the remembered perception “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”.

RM: To understand what Bill means in the paragraph quoted above you have to read the whole chapter, particularly that last section where he discusses “point of view” as the aspect of us that is outside the inner determinism of the control of input structure of behavior and thought. The fact that we are able to vary our point of view on our hierarchical structure of perception (as we do in MOL) is an aspect of human nature that is not yet explained by PCT; what varies our point of view is, as Bill says just before the Conclusion section, i"Something that is not yet represented in the model". It is this “something” that is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet. Actually, the book has been written – it’s Behavior: The Control of Perception – it’s just that few people working to understand consciousness have read it, much less understood it.

RM: I thank Lynndal for jogging my memory of this paper. I haven’t read it in over 30 years and for some reason it didn’t make the cut to be reprinted in LCS I or II. But re-reading it reminded me of how brilliant, lucid and straightforward Bill was. This paper is really a masterpiece that anyone interested in PCT should read. And re-read because there is much gold to be mined in it.

Best

Rick

PS. I sure hope it’s in the Powers archive at Northwestern.

Richard S. Marken

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human.

What a great thread to read… I’ll look in to the archive issue soon…

image00240.png

···

On May 21, 2016 6:21 AM, “Fred Nickols” fred@nickols.us wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2016.05.21.0818 ET)]

Â

Rick: Many thanks for sending along Bill’s paper. It is indeed a gold mine; one such nugget was finally clarifying for me the “behavioral illusion.� I have underlined and marked several lines and sections. This one I really like: “The traditional statistical approach cannot reveal controlled consequences.�

Â

Thanks again.

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

Â

Â

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 12:30 PM
To: mol@mail-list.com; csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Cc: Richard Marken
Subject: Powers on Free Will and Consciousness

Â

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.0930)]

Â

RM: This is a reply to Lynndal Daniels’ post to Tim Carey’s MOL discussion group but I think my reply might be of interest to everyone interested in PCT so I’m posting it to both the MOL and CSGNet discussion groups. Lynndal asks:

Â

LD: I recently saw some conversation on the CSG group going on in regards to “Free Willâ€? and whether it was an illusion or not. So, I know there are some fairly strong opinions out there.  Did Powers opine on the existence or non-existence of Free Will or was that something that wasn’t part of PCT. Â

Â

RM: This reminded me that I had seen a mention of free will in one of Bill’s papers that I had read way back when I was first getting into PCT, in about 1979 (turns out it actually had to be about 1980). I remember finding a chapter by Bill in book on consciousness in which he said something like “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”. So I went looking for that chapter and found a reference to it in LCS I. It was paper entitled “A systems approach to consciousness” and it was a chapter in a collection of papers edited by R. J and J. M Davidson. The title of the book was listed in LCS I as “The Psychology of Consciousness” but after some futile searching for the book under that title I somehow learned that the actual title of the book is “The Psychobiology of Consciousness”.Â

Â

RM: I was unable to get a copy of Bill’s chapter directly from the net but fortunately I am able to get articles using a library service provided by Antioch University, where I teach part time, so I managed to get a copy that way. It’s attached to this message. After reading it several times I finally managed to find the section where Bill mentions free will; it’s in section 3.4 but I’ll save you the trouble of trying to find it; it is at the end of the following paragraph:Â

Â

Inline image 2

Â

RM: It was surprisingly difficult for me to find this mention of free will because, as you can see, my memory of what Bill said was somewhat different that what he actually said. I was remembering the meaning, not the exact words (which is interesting in itself; what I stored was a higher level perception of meaning rather than the lower level perception of the text). The “intellectual debates” Bill is referring to are debates about “determinism versus free will”. So I clearly replaced “intellectual debates” with its meaning – “determinism versus free will” – in memory and came up with the remembered perception “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”.Â

Â

RM: To understand what Bill means in the paragraph quoted above you have to read the whole chapter, particularly that last section where he discusses “point of view” as the aspect of us that is outside the inner determinism of the control of input structure of behavior and thought. The fact that we are able to vary our point of view on our hierarchical structure of perception (as we do in MOL) is an aspect of human nature that is not yet explained by PCT; what varies our point of view is, as Bill says just before the Conclusion section, i"Something that is not yet represented in the model". It is this “something” that is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet. Actually, the book has been written – it’s Behavior: The Control of Perception – it’s just that few people working to understand consciousness have read it, much less understood it.

Â

RM: I thank Lynndal for jogging my memory of this paper. I haven’t read it in over 30 years and for some reason it didn’t make the cut to be reprinted in LCS I or II. But re-reading it reminded me of how brilliant, lucid and straightforward Bill was. This paper is really a masterpiece that anyone interested in PCT should read. And re-read because there is much gold to be mined in it. Â

BestÂ

Â

Rick

Â

PS. I sure hope it’s in the Powers archive at Northwestern.Â

Â

Richard S. MarkenÂ

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of  Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human

Â

[Bruce Nevin (20160521.10:41 ET)]

Thanks for posting this, Rick! A model of lucidity.

On p. 223  I find distinct definitions of action and behavior that might be of interest to our contentious friend Boris.

Used copies of the book can be found. To stalk a good price (including shipping) one could lurk here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=davidson&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=the+psychobiology+of+consciousness

I just put a brief quote and a cite in my Paris paper (latest incarnation). Here’s the cite in one of the standard formats:

William T. Powers. 1980. A systems approach to consciousness. In J. M. Davidson & Richard J. Davidson (eds.), The Psychobiology of Consciousness, New York: Plenum, pp. 217-242.

Do we have a complete bibliography someplace on the web? I mean something likeÂ

http://zelligharris.org/ZSHbibliography.htmlÂ

image281.png

···

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2016.05.20.0930)]

RM: This is a reply to Lynndal Daniels’ post to Tim Carey’s MOL discussion group but I think my reply might be of interest to everyone interested in PCT so I’m posting it to both the MOL and CSGNet discussion groups. Lynndal asks:

LD: I recently saw some conversation on the CSG group going on in regards to “Free Willâ€? and whether it was an illusion or not. So, I know there are some fairly strong opinions out there.  Did Powers opine on the existence or non-existence of Free Will or was that something that wasn’t part of PCT. Â

RM: This reminded me that I had seen a mention of free will in one of Bill’s papers that I had read way back when I was first getting into PCT, in about 1979 (turns out it actually had to be about 1980). I remember finding a chapter by Bill in book on consciousness in which he said something like “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”. So I went looking for that chapter and found a reference to it in LCS I. It was paper entitled “A systems approach to consciousness” and it was a chapter in a collection of papers edited by R. J and J. M Davidson. The title of the book was listed in LCS I as “The Psychology of Consciousness” but after some futile searching for the book under that title I somehow learned that the actual title of the book is “The Psychobiology of Consciousness”.Â

RM: I was unable to get a copy of Bill’s chapter directly from the net but fortunately I am able to get articles using a library service provided by Antioch University, where I teach part time, so I managed to get a copy that way. It’s attached to this message. After reading it several times I finally managed to find the section where Bill mentions free will; it’s in section 3.4 but I’ll save you the trouble of trying to find it; it is at the end of the following paragraph:Â

RM: It was surprisingly difficult for me to find this mention of free will because, as you can see, my memory of what Bill said was somewhat different that what he actually said. I was remembering the meaning, not the exact words (which is interesting in itself; what I stored was a higher level perception of meaning rather than the lower level perception of the text). The “intellectual debates” Bill is referring to are debates about “determinism versus free will”. So I clearly replaced “intellectual debates” with its meaning – “determinism versus free will” – in memory and came up with the remembered perception “free will is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet”.Â

RM: To understand what Bill means in the paragraph quoted above you have to read the whole chapter, particularly that last section where he discusses “point of view” as the aspect of us that is outside the inner determinism of the control of input structure of behavior and thought. The fact that we are able to vary our point of view on our hierarchical structure of perception (as we do in MOL) is an aspect of human nature that is not yet explained by PCT; what varies our point of view is, as Bill says just before the Conclusion section, i"Something that is not yet represented in the model". It is this “something” that is the last chapter of a book that hasn’t been written yet. Actually, the book has been written – it’s Behavior: The Control of Perception – it’s just that few people working to understand consciousness have read it, much less understood it.

RM: I thank Lynndal for jogging my memory of this paper. I haven’t read it in over 30 years and for some reason it didn’t make the cut to be reprinted in LCS I or II. But re-reading it reminded me of how brilliant, lucid and straightforward Bill was. This paper is really a masterpiece that anyone interested in PCT should read. And re-read because there is much gold to be mined in it. Â

BestÂ

Rick

PS. I sure hope it’s in the Powers archive at Northwestern.Â

Richard S. MarkenÂ

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of  Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human