Proof positive

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.19.1445)]

I think the current meltdown of the economic system is proof positive
that free market economics works. Republican policies couldn't
possibly be the cause of the problem because we know that those
policies are right. So the current catastrophe must have been caused
by the Democrats. So we had better elect a Republican again because 8
years are obviously not enough time to clean up the mess left by
Clinton.

Have a great week-end, free marketers!

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

From Jim Wuwert 2008.09.19.2200EST

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.19.1445)]

I think the current meltdown of the economic system is proof positive
that free market economics works. Republican policies couldn’t
possibly be the cause of the problem because we know that those
policies are right. So the current catastrophe must have been caused
by the Democrats. So we had better elect a Republican again because 8
years are obviously not enough time to clean up the mess left by
Clinton.

What are you thinking when you say “meltdown?” What are you wanting for our economic system in this country? What would it look like if it wasn’t in a “catastrophe?” I am not asking so we can debate or so you will defend your statements. I am asking you to share with me what you see when I ask those questions. I want to learn more about what you see.

All e-mail correspondence to and from this address
is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law,
which may result in monitoring and disclosure to
third parties, including law enforcement.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY/AFFIRMATIVE ACTION EMPLOYER

[from Tracy B. Harms (2008-09-19 21:02 Pacific)]

Hi, Rick.

When I read this it reminds me how much I value the explanatory power
I've encountered in "free-market" economics. As it's hard not to think
of myself as referenced by the "free marketer" category, I notice that
I interpret your wishing me a great weekend as sarcasm, My main
response is fear: I'm frightened of being shunned, I'm frightened of
being scorned, I'm afraid that I may live in a world where the people
around me are intent on disrupting the productive efforts of others as
much as they can, and I'm fearful that communication will break down
before ideas can be seriously examined. In addition, I'm irritated as
I think that people who direct special enmity toward market processes
will succeed in characterizing the present establishment as
predominantly "free market" -- as if in collusion with the many
apologists for the present establishment (such as Republican Party
opinion-shapers) who are doing the same thing.

Tracy

···

On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:43 PM, Richard Marken <rsmarken@gmail.com> wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.19.1445)]

I think the current meltdown of the economic system is proof positive
that free market economics works. Republican policies couldn't
possibly be the cause of the problem because we know that those
policies are right. So the current catastrophe must have been caused
by the Democrats. So we had better elect a Republican again because 8
years are obviously not enough time to clean up the mess left by
Clinton.

Have a great week-end, free marketers!

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.09.20.0223 MDT )]

Tracy B. Harms (2008-09-19 21:02 Pacific) --

When I read this it reminds me how much I value the explanatory power
I've encountered in "free-market" economics. As it's hard not to think
of myself as referenced by the "free marketer" category, I notice that
I interpret your wishing me a great weekend as sarcasm, My main
response is fear: I'm frightened of being shunned, I'm frightened of
being scorned, I'm afraid that I may live in a world where the people
around me are intent on disrupting the productive efforts of others as
much as they can, and I'm fearful that communication will break down
before ideas can be seriously examined. In addition, I'm irritated as
I think that people who direct special enmity toward market processes
will succeed in characterizing the present establishment as
predominantly "free market" -- as if in collusion with the many
apologists for the present establishment (such as Republican Party
opinion-shapers) who are doing the same thing.

I agree that Rick's post sounded just like John McCain's attack ads, or all the negative ads we're getting here in Colorado, which seems to be a hotbed of sleazy political hacks. Very unimaginative playground stuff. But I have to agree with him (and perhaps with you) that the so-called "free market" isn't working very well. The problem is that the people who are yelling the loudest against regulations and taxes are the ones who are just trying to avoid going to jail for doing all the really selfish, tricky, dishonest, and downright criminal things they want to get away with.

It's the same problem the libertarians have. If everyone were a hard-working honest creative laborer in the vinyards who just wanted to be left alone to contribute his bit to his own and the common good, practically any economic system would work. All it takes is an intention to make it work, at the system concept level. People who want it to work for everyone will keep tweaking it until it does work for everyone, including themselves -- but they realize that it won't work for themselves unless it really does work for everyone.

The problem is the people who only want it to work for themselves and to hell with everyone else. They want to claw their way to the top over the bodies of anyone who gets in the way, and then expand their power indefinitely, because of course they can never be secure, knowing how they got there. They try to put a noble face on it, but it's a deadly game and it keeps the whole world in turmoil.

It's a version of the tragedy of the commons. People who really are noble want everyone to be free and self-determined, but as soon as they succeed in achieving part of that goal, the others jump in to take advantage of the new freedoms and twist them to their own selfish ends. The unscrupulous triumph precisely because they lack the scruples that keep others from violently objecting. This is a basic social dilemma and it has always prevented the attempts at utopia from working.

You defend the concept of a free market, but in the current culture that's a bit like the old communists praising the noble virtues of comradeship, sharing, mutual support, and generosity. The people in charge of the system do not intend that everyone should share in the benefits of this system, though they are perfectly willing for everyone else to believe in such things.

If it weren't for the raptors among us, the believers in a free market, or freedom in general, would have brought the world to peace and prosperity long ago. But we've never figured out what to do about the spoilers, or the reformers who turn into spoilers as soon as they ascend to power. Power corrupts, because of what one has to do to maintain power after attaining it. The free market, the folks cheerfully trading eggs for shoes in the town square while a troubadour make sprightly music, suddenly finds a WalMart plunked down in the middle of it, and the scene disintegrates. The principle of the free market can't work in the presence of concentrated power.

If you can figure out how to thwart attempts to gain power over others in this economic system, or any other, you will bring us all to the first working utopia. So get busy.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.20.0900)]

Bill Powers (2008.09.20.0223 MDT )--

I agree that Rick's post sounded just like John McCain's attack ads

This is like the MSM, in their faux efforts to appear fair, saying
that _both_ candidates have gone negative. Spare me!

But I have to agree with him (and perhaps with you) that the so-called "free
market" isn't working very well.

That wasn't what my comment was about. Of course the "free market"
isn't working; my comment satirically pointed to the fact that, in
economics, ideology trumps data.

The problem [for free marketers] is the people who only want it to work for
themselves and to hell with everyone else...

That's not the only problem; even if everyone were noble and
cooperative you would still need rules and regulations (blueprints) so
that people could successfully coordinate their efforts. I see
building and maintaining a successful economy as being similar to
building and maintaining any complex social organization, like IBM
Corporation. It's kind of amazing to me that the same people who
understand the need for competent management to make a organization
like IBM function properly are often those who think the much more
complex social organization called an economy will take care of itself
if everyone were just left alone to pursue their own "self interest".

If it weren't for the raptors among us, the believers in a free market, or
freedom in general, would have brought the world to peace and prosperity
long ago.

I disagree. I think that even without raptors you would still need
rules and guidelines so that the participants in the economy (the
"employees") know their job. I think, for example, that there must be
rules about paying taxes since taxes are an investment in the common
infrastructure (education, healthcare, transportation, R&D etc) that
makes an economy work best for everyone. Without such rules, some
might tithe and others might not, not because some people are good and
some bad, but simply because there are no plans for common investment
in the infrastructure. Of course, "free market" thinking imagines that
all this infrastructure development will magically happen on it's own
of people are left to their own devices; taxes are seen as a burden on
individual freedom rather than an investment in common infrastructure.
The fact that it doesn't work that way is, I think, the reason why
data is of so little interest to free marketers.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.09.20.1112 M<DT)]

Rick Marken (2008.09.20.0900) --

> Bill Powers (2008.09.20.0223 MDT )--

> I agree that Rick's post sounded just like John McCain's attack ads

This is like the MSM, in their faux efforts to appear fair, saying
that _both_ candidates have gone negative. Spare me!

I don't know what MSM is. Probably should. But I have no patience with conflicts any more, and generally just ignore what they're about. They don't get anyone anywhere until they escalate to deadliness, and then one side loses or is dead. The last one standing wins, and then asks in stupid bewilderment, "Where did everybody go?" Once you understand what a conflict is, it's just dumb to choose to be part of one.

That's not the only problem; even if everyone were noble and
cooperative you would still need rules and regulations (blueprints) so
that people could successfully coordinate their efforts.

Yes, but if people try to arrive at successful cooperation by squabbling over the right way to do it, they will never get there.

I see building and maintaining a successful economy as being similar to
building and maintaining any complex social organization, like IBM
Corporation. It's kind of amazing to me that the same people who
understand the need for competent management to make a organization
like IBM function properly are often those who think the much more
complex social organization called an economy will take care of itself
if everyone were just left alone to pursue their own "self interest".

That is a truly beautiful point. If the market economy is so great, why don't corporations just leave the running of the company up to a free market? What's with this CEO business, and managers, and foremen? We don't need a company government telling people what they can and can't do; let them work it out for themselves. The invisible hand of supply and demand will magically make sure that this is the best of all possible companies.

> If it weren't for the raptors among us, the believers in a free market, or
> freedom in general, would have brought the world to peace and prosperity
> long ago.

I disagree. I think that even without raptors you would still need
rules and guidelines so that the participants in the economy (the
"employees") know their job.

Yes, I agree about the rules and guidelines. You can't play any game without both. But the raptors are the ones who don't care about the economy or the job or the company, or playing the same game as everyone else. The only rules they're interested in are the ones that favor them over others. My queen can take your queen, but your queen can't take my queen. Wanna play?

I think, for example, that there must be rules about paying taxes since taxes are an investment in the common infrastructure (education, healthcare, transportation, R&D etc) that makes an economy work best for everyone. Without such rules, some might tithe and others might not, not because some people are good and some bad, but simply because there are no plans for common investment in the infrastructure.

Right, but some rules need enforcement and some don't. You can't make a golfer penalize himself for grounding his club in a sand trap, but if he doesn't, he isn't playing golf and nobody will pay any attention to his score. That's different from rules about not hitting other golfers over the head with a driver. People who want a workable economy would devise rules designed to make it run properly, but not with the idea that people will want to violate them. Just tell me which side of the road you people drive on, and I'll comply. That kind of rule is not born of conflict between people. Taxes are just a Home Owners' Association fee, which you pay if you want your snow removed, your building painted, and the grass cut.

Of course, "free market" thinking imagines that all this infrastructure development will magically happen on it's own of people are left to their own devices; taxes are seen as a burden on individual freedom rather than an investment in common infrastructure. The fact that it doesn't work that way is, I think, the reason why data is of so little interest to free marketers.

I don't want to talk about "free marketers" or what "they" think about data. You don't know what "they" think and neither do I. You're making up a bogeyman so you can stomp on it. That's exercising the wrong end of your body.

Best,

Bill P.
'

[From Rick Marken (2008.09.20.1530)]

Bill Powers (2008.09.20.1112 M<DT)--

Rick Marken (2008.09.20.0900) --

> Bill Powers (2008.09.20.0223 MDT )--

> I agree that Rick's post sounded just like John McCain's attack ads

This is like the MSM, in their faux efforts to appear fair, saying
that _both_ candidates have gone negative. Spare me!

I don't know what MSM is.

Mainstream Media.

It's kind of amazing to me that the same people who
understand the need for competent management to make a organization
like IBM function properly are often those who think the much more
complex social organization called an economy will take care of itself
if everyone were just left alone to pursue their own "self interest".

That is a truly beautiful point.

Thanks. I thought so too.

Of course, "free market" thinking imagines that all this infrastructure
development will magically happen on it's own of people are left to their
own devices; taxes are seen as a burden on individual freedom rather than an
investment in common infrastructure. The fact that it doesn't work that way
is, I think, the reason why data is of so little interest to free marketers.

I don't want to talk about "free marketers" or what "they" think about data.
You don't know what "they" think and neither do I.

You're right. I have the same problem with SR people who don't get
convinced by the PCT demos. I suppose it could be something other than
a lack of interest in data. Of course, the other hypotheses that come
to mind would just get you more irritated so I'll just leave it at
this: I have no idea why, after these last 7+ years, anyone would vote
for a Republican (which I really meant by "they") again.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com