Question

I am attending the University of Cincinnati. I am currently enrolled in a
class about PCT. The book we are using is titled Introduction to Modern
Pschycology: The Control-Theory View. As a general class topic, we take
each chapter and work on it seperately for the day, which by the way is
twice a week. During our discussion, we generally raise questions that the
rest of the class can answer, but this time we ran into a wall. Our
question was, on chapter 10, page 143, section 10.3.1, third paragraph,
first sentence "The control-theory. . . are percieved at the . . ." what is
the exact meaning of percieved here at this point? We came to some
different conclusions. First we broke down the activity into three seperate
areas. 1.) That a siganal is transported through the median, air, water,
etc. and reaches our stimulus receptors. 2.) The neurons fire to let us
know we have a signal, which travels the length of the nervous system and
reaches the neg. feedback loops. 3.) We respond to that signal by reacting
to bring the K value back to minimal disturbance. What part is this then of
the actually "percieved"?
        Some in the class argued that if you take into account all of it,
then there is no way that all the senses can be occuring at the same rate,
i.e. if your eye records light, it has a shorter length to travel than say
from the bottom of your foot for touch. That must make some kind of time
difference. Others argued that it was only in step 2 that you were talking
about the consistant timing. But the problem here is that in the experiment
given, it seems that it must incorporate everyone of the steps, or does not
as fully support your view in this particular case. What it amounts to is a
simple definition problem. You could respond by Email rather than clog the
net with this answer, in that case, my email is georgemd@ucunix.san.uc.edu

        By the way, we all enjoy and think your theory works well in all
situations.

                            Mark D. George

[from Dick Robertson] 950510.2130CDT
Rick Marken, I hope you picked up this question; it's from your part
of the chapter. Any way I'll a preliminary comment to you Mark.
Glad you're working through the material. It appears that your group
is really nailing the stuff that needs the next generation of
research. The quote you give is refering to Rick's assertion that
all SEQUENCES are controlled at the same level of complexity in the
control hierarchy, that is, at 8th order, if Powers's hierarchical
moldel is more or less on the mark, and if the action in question has
been accurately identified as to its level of complexity by Rick.
The transmission time for various nerves would not be a factor in the
type of control -- whether auditory, visual, or proprioceptive --
they would all be 8th order in that what the subject is doing is
integrating sets of categories, whether, sight, sound or feel.
Hope this gives a start. But do go after Rick for more detail. He
has done some further experiments on this which could be very
interesting to you. Best, Dick R.

<[Bill Leach 940627.22:27 EST(EDT)]

NET

I was approached by a friend with a question about how she might best
deal with herself with respect to a co-worker that very much annoys her.
I suggested that I would "toss it out on the net" to see what thoughts
there might be on the problem.

My perceptions:

The friend is obese, quite aware of the fact and a bit uncomfortable with
herself. I don't personally feel that her feelings about her weight
problem are severe but they undoubted are a factor even if minor.

She seems to otherwise be relatively "unconflicted". She has what
appears to me to be a reasonably rational set of ethical and moral
standards. As far as I know, she lives to those standards and is
comfortable with them.

Her description of her co-worker to me:

      Only child from a single parent family (mother).
      Rather intelligent, quick mind.
      Young and attractive.
      Appears to possibly be very possessive (was introduced to a male
      friend of my friend and proceded to attempt to isolate this guy
      from everyone and every activity that he previously engaged).

Her description of the problem:
   She tries to ignore what she perceives concerning the behaviour of the
   co-worker but find herself often getting rather upset.

      Often VERY loudly criticizes the work of other staff personnel
      (specifically not the work of my friend however).
      Often VERY loudly conducts herself in a rude fashion to people
      while on the telephone. This is so loud that others will often
      have to apologize or excuse the "background noise" to people that
      they are talking with on the phone.

The job is with the Social Security Administration and my friend is not
this persons supervisor. The would not likely be called friends either.
My friend does not feel that she has any influence with this other
person.

Because of her work, I have been trying to stir some interest in PCT.
She then asked me if PCT could provide any insight into how she should
respond to this behaviour that is annoying to her.

She mentioned that she had tried wearing headphones but they do not block
out enough should to prevent the outbursts from "getting to her".

She feels that this girls behaviour is destructive to herself as well as
annoying to others and would prefer potential solutions that would help
her to help the other girl to "get along" better with co-workers and the
like. However, she is also very interested in any suggestions on help
herself to cope better with how what she perceives is happening.

     //////////////////////////////////////////
     / /
     / -bill (Bill Leach; W.R. Leach Co.) /
     / bleach@bix.com 71330.2621@cis.com /
     / ARS KB7LX@KB7LX.ampr.org 44.74.1.74 /
     / 919-362-7427 /
     / P.O. Box 1228 /
     / Apex, NC 27502 /
     //////////////////////////////////////////

[From Rick Marken (991117.2200)]

OK. Let me see if I understand RTP.

Giving a kid a choice is not coercive. Therefore, it
must also be true that giving a teacher a choice is not
coercive either. Suppose, for example, that a kid tells
the teacher that the rule is "the second time you send
Jenny to the RTC you will have to find another job". I
presume, then, that when the teacher sends Jenny to
the RTC for the second time, the kid should say "I see
you have chosen to find another job" and expect the
teacher to go off and find another job.

Is that correct? Why or why not.

Thanks

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Gregory (991118.0734 EST)]

Rick Marken (991117.2200)

OK. Let me see if I understand RTP.

Giving a kid a choice is not coercive. Therefore, it
must also be true that giving a teacher a choice is not
coercive either. Suppose, for example, that a kid tells
the teacher that the rule is "the second time you send
Jenny to the RTC you will have to find another job". I
presume, then, that when the teacher sends Jenny to
the RTC for the second time, the kid should say "I see
you have chosen to find another job" and expect the
teacher to go off and find another job.

Is that correct? Why or why not.

I thought we had established that society _is_ coercive, but apparently I am
wrong. If we can agree on this, it is possible to answer your question. Are
you willing to take that step?

Bruce Gregory

from [ Marc Abrams (991118.0947) ]

[From Rick Marken (991117.2200)]

OK. Let me see if I understand RTP.

Giving a kid a choice is not coercive.

It might be but you can't make sweeping statements aprori about it. You need
to understand the intent ( which is practically impossible to ever really
know ) of the _INDIVIDUAL_. If you base it on the actions you see how are
you ( a control theorist ) any different then a behaviorist? The _only_ way
you can ever _possibly_ know is by doing the Test. and modt of the time that
would be either impractical or undoable. How do you you know if it is a side
effect or intended?

BTW, Rick are you going to answer my simple question? Let me repreat it for
the 3rd time oh great watcher of the gate :-). If I am counter countrolling.
Are we coercing each other simultaneously? and if so, Exactly when does this
begin and end.

Therefore, it
must also be true that giving a teacher a choice is not
coercive either.

No different then your example above

Suppose, for example, that a kid tells
the teacher that the rule is "the second time you send
Jenny to the RTC you will have to find another job". I
presume, then, that when the teacher sends Jenny to
the RTC for the second time, the kid should say "I see
you have chosen to find another job" and expect the
teacher to go off and find another job.

Is that correct? Why or why not.

You tell me.

Marc

[From Bruce Nevin (991117.1206 EDT)]

Rick Marken (991117.2200)--

Suppose, for example, that a kid tells
the teacher that the rule is "the second time you send
Jenny to the RTC you will have to find another job". I
presume, then, that when the teacher sends Jenny to
the RTC for the second time, the kid should say "I see
you have chosen to find another job" and expect the
teacher to go off and find another job.

Is that correct? Why or why not.

Because there is a prior agreement about the rules. To initiate RTP,
parents, teachers, administrators, and students have many meetings and
discussions and agree about how they want their school to be, including
what the rules are.

What about a kid who comes into the school after RTP is accepted and
established? At the least, there are meetings and other occasions to
explain how the school works, including what the rules are and how they work.

Kids understand playing by rules. When you play tag, if you get tagged by
"it" while you're off base then you're "it." If one person changes the
rules everyone has to agree on the change. Calvinball doesn't work for more
than two or a few players. If one person insists on a changed rule that no
one else agrees with, then they are thereby putting themselves out of the
game. Kids recognize this.

So there should be provision for proposing changes (for example, schools
can bail out of RTP), but it's hard to get agreement on changes in mid
play. That's why it's a big effort to get RTP established.

"Rules of the game" simplify expectations, relationships, and interactions.
They facilitate cooperation around a relatively narrowed set of aims for a
group, at the cost of restricting individual freedom of choice to that
narrowed range of aims for the duration of play. Participants support those
aims in ways that are prescribed by patterning of the game, as communicated
verbally in the form of rules. The rules are not the pattern or structure
of interactions, relationships, and expectations, they are a socially
transmissible (and enforceable) codification of them.

Obviously, not everyone has to play. A kid can opt out of tag and play by
himself or in a different group with a different set of rules. A kid can be
home schooled.

(Not to mention PCT and the "rules of the game" for career advancement,
etc. A maverick scientist can work with little support & recognition in
isolation or in a small group with its own "rules of the game".)

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 10:01 PM 11/17/1999 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (991118.1250)]

Me:

Giving a kid a choice is not coercive.

Marc Abrams (991118.0947) --

It might be but you can't make sweeping statements aprori
about it. You need to understand the intent...of the _INDIVIDUAL_.

Right. I have to know whether the teacher intends to limit
the kid to the choices. I test this by having the kid do
something other than one of the choices and see if the teacher
acts to prevent it. If the teacher does act to prevent it, then
giving the choice was coercive; if the teacher does _not_ act
to prevent it, then giving the choice was just a lot of hot air.

BTW, Rick are you going to answer my simple question? Let me repreat
it for the 3rd time oh great watcher of the gate :-). If I am counter
countrolling. Are we coercing each other simultaneously? and if so,
Exactly when does this begin and end.

Sorry. I guess I didn't see the relevance to the topic of RTP
procedures.

Counter control is not coercion; it is control by disturbance
of a controlled variable, which is illustrated in my "Control
of Behavior" demo at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/demos.html

In counter control, the controlled variable is some aspect of
the controller's own behavior. If, for example, I (the
controller) know that you want me to go to the RTC and that
you will yell louder and louder to get me to go, then I can
control the amplitude of your yelling by appropriately delaying
my trip to the RTC. There is no coercion because, if my
counter control fails (because you have come to your senses
and stopped trying to force me to go to the RTC), I will
not force you to yell.

What in the world does this have to do with the question of
whether or not the _recomended_ RTP practices are coercive?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (991118.1350)]

Bruce Nevin (991117.1206 EDT)--

Because there is a prior agreement about the rules.

I think what you are saying is that, when the teacher
gives the kid a choice, it is not coercive because
there was prior agreement about the rules the kid
should follow. So I presume that if there were prior
agreement about the rules the teacher should follow
then it would not be coercive for the kid to give the
teacher a choice.

Is that correct?

By the way, I like the idea of the kids getting together
and working out the rules on their own and agreeing to them.
I know that some RTP people do this; I think this should
be played up as a _very_ useful aspect of RTP. It doesn't
remove coerciveness from the program but I think it goes a
long way towards explaining why there is so little conflict
when the rules are enforced; the misbehaving kid (like the
person without a library card) feels not just the teacher
(librarian) "pushing back" to enforce the rule; s/he feels
the whole community "pushing back".

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

from [ Marc Abrams (991118.1820) ]

[From Rick Marken (991118.1250)]

Right. I have to know whether the teacher intends to limit
the kid to the choices.

No you need to know _HOW_ he _intends_ to do it.

I test this by having the kid do
something other than one of the choices and see if the teacher
acts to prevent it. If the teacher does act to prevent it, then
giving the choice was coercive; if the teacher does _not_ act
to prevent it, then giving the choice was just a lot of hot air.

I don't believe you can _accurately_ test for this. "Theoretically" there is
nothing stopping you. Like Time travel or standing a pencil on it's point.
There is nothing in Physics that says either one cannot be done. In fact
_theoretically_ they both _can_ be done.

You of course would have to test and see if any other alternatives were
viable either. How would you know you covered all the alternatives?

What in the world does this have to do with the question of
whether or not the _recomended_ RTP practices are coercive?

Absolutely nothing. :slight_smile:

Marc

[From Bruce Nevin (991118.2042 EDT)]
Rick Marken (991118.1350)--

···

At 12:48 PM 11/18/1999 -0800, Richard Marken wrote:

Bruce Nevin (991117.1206 EDT)--

Because there is a prior agreement about the rules.

I think what you are saying is that, when the teacher
gives the kid a choice, it is not coercive because
there was prior agreement about the rules the kid
should follow.

I do not deny coercion as a backdrop to this situation. I was explaining
the difference between the agreed "rules of the game" for the school and a
rule made up by one person with no agreement of others.

Other than that point, I have no interest in the debate about coercion in
RTP. what I said to Marc about modelling coercion has nothing to do with RTP.

  Bruce Nevin

[From Rick Marken (991118.1830)]

Me:

[To determine if the teacher is controlling for the choices
offered] I have to know whether the teacher intends to limit
the kid to the choices.

Marc Abrams (991118.1820)

No you need to know _HOW_ he _intends_ to do it.

No, you don't need to know how. All you need to do is apply
disturbances to the hypothetical controlled variable (in this
case, the offered choices) and watch for an effect of these
disturbances; if there is little or no effect, then that
variable (or something very much like it) is under control.
This is how my Test for the Controlled Variable demo works;
it doesn't know _how_ the controlled square is kept under
control (that is, it doesn't know what mouse movements are
used to control the square); all it does is look at the state
of the hypothetical controlled variable; it compares expected
to the actual effect of disturbances to this variable to
determine whether it is really under control.

Me:

I test this by having the kid do something other than one of
the choices and see if the teacher acts to prevent it.

Marc:

I don't believe you can _accurately_ test for this.

This _is_ your choice (to believe that I can't accurately
test for the controlling done by the teacher); but I can
accurately test for it.

You of course would have to test and see if any other
alternatives were viable either. How would you know you
covered all the alternatives?

You never know for sure. But you can get pretty darn close.
In the case of the teacher controlling for the choices open
to the kid, I don't know what the alternatives are to this
being the controlled variable if every effort the kid makes
to produce an outcome other than the two offered is
systematically and strongly opposed. What alternative
would you think had not been covered?

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

from [ Marc Abrams (991118.2253) ]

[From Rick Marken (991118.1830)]

No, you don't need to know how. All you need to do is apply
disturbances to the hypothetical controlled variable (in this
case,

Oh I see. All tests for the CV are also tests for coercion. Thanks for
clearing that up

Marc

[From Rick Marken (991119.0910)]

Marc Abrams (991118.2253) --

Oh I see. All tests for the CV are also tests for coercion.

No. All tests for CVs are tests for controlled variables
(CVs). If the variable a person is controlling is an aspect
of another person's behavior then that controlling can be
called "coercion". But if you don't like calling it coercion
(because no physical force is ever used, say) you can
just call it "control of behavior".

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken