[From Chris Cherpas (960731.1058 PT)]
[re: A post from Mary Powers followed by a post from Bill Powers]
[from Mary Powers 960731]
MP:
There is, I think, a problem with the word "theory". It can
mean, as you defined it, a set of principles. Or it can mean
a systems concept - the next level in the HPCT hierarchy - which
sets the reference signal levels for principles. I don't think
that the levels at this level are at all clear, but to me systems
concepts are beliefs, and have a big emotional component,
especially when disturbed...
cc:
I am very interested in HPCTers' speculations on the higher
orders, especially "systems concept." To what extent could you,
Bill or others who are PCT-fluent describe your understanding
of HPCT "in HPCT language?" In other words -- not in general,
but specifically -- if you take what you consider to be the
conceptual core of H/PCT, what perceptions do think you think
you have, and how to they relate to each other hierarchically?
I'd appreciate any introspections you'd be willing to share.
[From Bill Powers (960731.0730 MDT)]
BP:
I presume that mathematical operations are a learned activity in a human
brain. But it doesn't seem likely (to me) that the processes which
enable us to symbolize and manipulate symbols according to rules are
themselves symbol manipulations done according to rules. Mathematics is
a _result_ of brain operations, not a _cause_ of them.
cc:
This certainly concurs with my intuitions. I think looking at
PCT diagrams brings home to me that (besides a sense of my own
ignorance) I don't know where to draw the line between relatively
direct perceptions about perceptions versus perceptions of formalisms
about perceptions. I'm not sure I can even talk about the problem clearly,
but I don't mean to imply I am talking about comparing models to "reality."
BP notes:
Not compare models with reality, but compare them with other models that
we consider equally or more valid. One important "other model" is called
neurology.
cc:
This also expresses my opinion:
BP:
While we can
describe simple neural operations mathematically, and speak of them as
"computations," they are not computations in the same sense as a
mathematical computation. They are physical processes which take place
without being mediated by symbols. That is my opinion.
cc:
How do you "perceive" H/PCT? Maybe this would narrow it down: In the
context of relatively undisturbed self-reflection or introspection, how
to you perceive HPCT?
I welcome any thoughts.
cc