relevance of quantum thermodynamics

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_10:20:36 PT]

“Living things constantly strive against the second law of thermodynamics, sucking in energy to maintain the order within their cells. Powering all this are our bodies’ equivalent of heat engines: mitochondria. So here’s an intriguing question: given that natural selection tends to encourage efficiency, has biology evolved quantum heat engines? There is a hot debate about whether any quantum effects are important in biology, but in my opinion it’s not crazy to think that evolution would produce the most efficient engines possible.”

The article is attached; you need a subscription to see it on the site at

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731720-400-im-building-a-machine-that-breaks-the-rules-of-reality/

quantum-thermodynamics.pdf (1.09 MB)

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.13.51]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_10:20:36 PT]

            "Living things constantly strive against the second

law of thermodynamics, sucking in energy to maintain the
order within their cells. Powering all this are our
bodies’ equivalent of heat engines: mitochondria. So
here’s an intriguing question: given that natural
selection tends to encourage efficiency, has biology
evolved quantum heat engines? There is a hot debate
about whether any quantum effects are important in
biology, but in my opinion it’s not crazy to think that
evolution would produce the most efficient engines
possible."

          The article is attached; you need a subscription to see

it on the site at

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731720-400-im-building-a-machine-that-breaks-the-rules-of-reality/

That article was published on the closest available date to April 1,

was it not? There are a few little details that would concern me and
might perhaps induce me to enquire further had it been published in,
say, June.

I grant that not all suspect articles published around April 1 are

spoofs. The first article I ever saw on masers was in an April 1
issue, and I thought it must be a spoof, but it wasn’t. Maybe this
also is not, but if it isn’t, why does it rely on the gross
thermodynamic statement of the second law as a law, rather than on
Boltzmann’s (or Gibbs) probabilistic reasoning for why the law is in
practice almost always observed? The probabilistic approach to
entropy would seem more appropriate to a quantum discussion, would
it not?

Martin

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_11:34:00 PT]

Good check point. The lead-in to this April 4 popsci article does include the word “fool”.

Further checking the author’s references, this was published in October

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.117.170401

The attached 2nd-Law-broken.pdf, published in July, seems to be a follow-up popularization.

Joseph Nils Becker has done considerable work on control of quantum states in diamonds at Oxford

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2084525317_Jonas_Nils_Becker

where Ian Walmsley has indeed demonstrated quantum effects in the operation of microscopic heat engines.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.08716

2nd-Law-broken.pdf (297 KB)

···

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.13.51]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_10:20:36 PT]

            "Living things constantly strive against the second

law of thermodynamics, sucking in energy to maintain the
order within their cells. Powering all this are our
bodies’ equivalent of heat engines: mitochondria. So
here’s an intriguing question: given that natural
selection tends to encourage efficiency, has biology
evolved quantum heat engines? There is a hot debate
about whether any quantum effects are important in
biology, but in my opinion it’s not crazy to think that
evolution would produce the most efficient engines
possible."

          The article is attached; you need a subscription to see

it on the site at

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731720-400-im-building-a-machine-that-breaks-the-rules-of-reality/

That article was published on the closest available date to April 1,

was it not? There are a few little details that would concern me and
might perhaps induce me to enquire further had it been published in,
say, June.

I grant that not all suspect articles published around April 1 are

spoofs. The first article I ever saw on masers was in an April 1
issue, and I thought it must be a spoof, but it wasn’t. Maybe this
also is not, but if it isn’t, why does it rely on the gross
thermodynamic statement of the second law as a law, rather than on
Boltzmann’s (or Gibbs) probabilistic reasoning for why the law is in
practice almost always observed? The probabilistic approach to
entropy would seem more appropriate to a quantum discussion, would
it not?

Martin

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.15.29]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_11:34:00 PT]

    Good check point. The lead-in to this April 4 popsci article

does include the word “fool”.

      Further checking the author's references, this was

published in October

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.117.170401

      The attached 2nd-Law-broken.pdf, published in July, seems

to be a follow-up popularization.

      Joseph Nils Becker has done considerable work on control of

quantum states in diamonds at Oxford

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2084525317_Jonas_Nils_Becker

      where Ian Walmsley has indeed demonstrated quantum effects

in the operation of microscopic heat engines.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.08716

The short paper you posted was interesting, in that I used to have

on my web site a live demonstration of exactly this small-scale
effect of entropy in a small isolated system increasing and
decreasing erratically, but it long ago stopped working because of
changes in Java, and I never bothered to upgrade it. The second law
is not broken at all. It only seems broken because of the enormous
degree of statistical smoothing in its large-scale (Clausius) form,
where the number of interacting entities (atoms, say) is of the
order of Avogadro’s number (6 * 1024 approximately). When
a system gets small, the interactions between the small number of
degrees of freedom being monitored and the wider Universe can easily
lead the entropy of the small system to go up and down. It’s true
even in an isolated small system. There’s no quantum magic about
that. It’s just a consequence of the fact that the Law of Large
Numbers is just a law of large numbers.

The so-called "arrow of time" implicated in the ever-increasing

entropy of an isolated system can easily reverse in a tiny system
simply because there aren’t enough degrees of freedom to smooth the
statistics. Sometimes one degree of freedom by chance gets a lot of
energy from all the others, which “cool” right down because of
conservation of energy, decreasing the overall entropy of the
system. One of my favourite Physics book series as a child was
George Gamow’s “Mr Tomkins” series. I remember two titles “Mr.
Tomkins in Wonderland” and “Mr. Tomkins Explores the Atom”. In one
of them, Mr Tomkins wakes from his exploration that explained the
Boltzmann-Gibbs approach to entropy to find his drink freezing on
one side of the glass and boiling on the other. It was a physical
possibility, but would have been very unlikely to have been observed
in the age of the Universe.

The observation of Mr Tomkins's glass is physically possible, but

has nothing to do with time reversal. It simply has to do with the
fact that it’s much easier to find your way out of a small
(unlikely) region of a possibility space than it is to find your way
back to the unlikely region by random moves. There’s no breaking of
the second law in it’s Boltzmann-Gibbs form where “entropy” is
determined by the sizes of spaces of possible states that are “the
same” from some observational viewpoint, though there is in the
Clausius form that applies only to bulk systems. Mis-applying laws
can get them broken any time you want, as magicians know very well.

Martin
···

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Martin
Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.13.51]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_10:20:36 PT]

                          "Living things constantly strive

against the second law of thermodynamics,
sucking in energy to maintain the order
within their cells. Powering all this are
our bodies’ equivalent of heat engines:
mitochondria. So here’s an intriguing
question: given that natural selection
tends to encourage efficiency, has biology
evolved quantum heat engines? There is a
hot debate about whether any quantum
effects are important in biology, but in
my opinion it’s not crazy to think that
evolution would produce the most efficient
engines possible."

                        The article is attached; you need a

subscription to see it on the site at

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731720-400-im-building-a-machine-that-breaks-the-rules-of-reality/

          That article was published on the closest available date

to April 1, was it not? There are a few little details
that would concern me and might perhaps induce me to
enquire further had it been published in, say, June.

          I grant that not all suspect articles published around

April 1 are spoofs. The first article I ever saw on masers
was in an April 1 issue, and I thought it must be a spoof,
but it wasn’t. Maybe this also is not, but if it isn’t,
why does it rely on the gross thermodynamic statement of
the second law as a law, rather than on Boltzmann’s (or
Gibbs) probabilistic reasoning for why the law is in
practice almost always observed? The probabilistic
approach to entropy would seem more appropriate to a
quantum discussion, would it not?

              Martin

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_16:13:21 PT]

I wonder why this never occurred to them. A prediction of your account is that their heat engine will run only for a very short time and then stop, or will run only in brief starts and stops.
They seem to find it worth putting it to experiment, so they’ll find out.

···

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.15.29]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_11:34:00 PT]

    Good check point. The lead-in to this April 4 popsci article

does include the word “fool”.

      Further checking the author's references, this was

published in October

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.117.170401

      The attached 2nd-Law-broken.pdf, published in July, seems

to be a follow-up popularization.

      Joseph Nils Becker has done considerable work on control of

quantum states in diamonds at Oxford

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2084525317_Jonas_Nils_Becker

      where Ian Walmsley has indeed demonstrated quantum effects

in the operation of microscopic heat engines.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.08716

The short paper you posted was interesting, in that I used to have

on my web site a live demonstration of exactly this small-scale
effect of entropy in a small isolated system increasing and
decreasing erratically, but it long ago stopped working because of
changes in Java, and I never bothered to upgrade it. The second law
is not broken at all. It only seems broken because of the enormous
degree of statistical smoothing in its large-scale (Clausius) form,
where the number of interacting entities (atoms, say) is of the
order of Avogadro’s number (6 * 1024 approximately). When
a system gets small, the interactions between the small number of
degrees of freedom being monitored and the wider Universe can easily
lead the entropy of the small system to go up and down. It’s true
even in an isolated small system. There’s no quantum magic about
that. It’s just a consequence of the fact that the Law of Large
Numbers is just a law of large numbers.

The so-called "arrow of time" implicated in the ever-increasing

entropy of an isolated system can easily reverse in a tiny system
simply because there aren’t enough degrees of freedom to smooth the
statistics. Sometimes one degree of freedom by chance gets a lot of
energy from all the others, which “cool” right down because of
conservation of energy, decreasing the overall entropy of the
system. One of my favourite Physics book series as a child was
George Gamow’s “Mr Tomkins” series. I remember two titles “Mr.
Tomkins in Wonderland” and “Mr. Tomkins Explores the Atom”. In one
of them, Mr Tomkins wakes from his exploration that explained the
Boltzmann-Gibbs approach to entropy to find his drink freezing on
one side of the glass and boiling on the other. It was a physical
possibility, but would have been very unlikely to have been observed
in the age of the Universe.

The observation of Mr Tomkins's glass is physically possible, but

has nothing to do with time reversal. It simply has to do with the
fact that it’s much easier to find your way out of a small
(unlikely) region of a possibility space than it is to find your way
back to the unlikely region by random moves. There’s no breaking of
the second law in it’s Boltzmann-Gibbs form where “entropy” is
determined by the sizes of spaces of possible states that are “the
same” from some observational viewpoint, though there is in the
Clausius form that applies only to bulk systems. Mis-applying laws
can get them broken any time you want, as magicians know very well.

Martin
      On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Martin

Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.13.51]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_10:20:36 PT]

                          "Living things constantly strive

against the second law of thermodynamics,
sucking in energy to maintain the order
within their cells. Powering all this are
our bodies’ equivalent of heat engines:
mitochondria. So here’s an intriguing
question: given that natural selection
tends to encourage efficiency, has biology
evolved quantum heat engines? There is a
hot debate about whether any quantum
effects are important in biology, but in
my opinion it’s not crazy to think that
evolution would produce the most efficient
engines possible."

                        The article is attached; you need a

subscription to see it on the site at

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731720-400-im-building-a-machine-that-breaks-the-rules-of-reality/

          That article was published on the closest available date

to April 1, was it not? There are a few little details
that would concern me and might perhaps induce me to
enquire further had it been published in, say, June.

          I grant that not all suspect articles published around

April 1 are spoofs. The first article I ever saw on masers
was in an April 1 issue, and I thought it must be a spoof,
but it wasn’t. Maybe this also is not, but if it isn’t,
why does it rely on the gross thermodynamic statement of
the second law as a law, rather than on Boltzmann’s (or
Gibbs) probabilistic reasoning for why the law is in
practice almost always observed? The probabilistic
approach to entropy would seem more appropriate to a
quantum discussion, would it not?

              Martin

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.23.01]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_16:13:21 PT]

      I wonder why this never occurred to them. A prediction of

your account is that their heat engine will run only for a
very short time and then stop, or will run only in brief
starts and stops.
They
seem to find it worth putting it to experiment, so they’ll
find out.

Lots of weird thing happen in the quantum world. My account is

classical, but nothing in the brief report in your PDF suggests what
difference a quantum account could make. My comment was based only
on what I read there, but if they had wanted to deal with
Boltzmann-Gibbs entropy, I would have thought that they would have
mentioned it. Classical probabilities have simple mathematical
relationships, but in the quantum world the basic variables are
complex-valued probability amplitudes whose squares yield
probabilities. I don’t know how these work in small system entropy
calculations.

If entanglement can make black holes radiate, who knows what else

might happen with entangled entities that share their entropy? The
hint that the efficiency might exceed a classical limit in the
Walmsley abstract might be another instance of the violation of the
Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen probability limit that allows for
unbreakable quantum encryption, and that would be in the same
conceptual area as the von Neumann-Landauer limiting relationship
between entropy change and heat generation (kt log 2 per bit change
in information) that leads designers of quantum computers to try to
make reversible computation, thus allowing zero heat-loss
computation.

One never knows.

Martin
···

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Martin
Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.15.29]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-04-06_11:34:00 PT]

                Good check point. The lead-in to this April 4 popsci

article does include the word “fool”.

                  Further checking the author's references, this

was published in October

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.117.170401

                  The attached 2nd-Law-broken.pdf, published in

July, seems to be a follow-up popularization.

                  Joseph Nils Becker has done considerable work

on control of quantum states in diamonds at Oxford

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2084525317_Jonas_Nils_Becker

                  where Ian Walmsley has indeed

demonstrated quantum effects in the operation of
microscopic heat engines.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.08716

           The short paper you posted was interesting, in

that I used to have on my web site a live demonstration of
exactly this small-scale effect of entropy in a small
isolated system increasing and decreasing erratically, but
it long ago stopped working because of changes in Java,
and I never bothered to upgrade it. The second law is not
broken at all. It only seems broken because of the
enormous degree of statistical smoothing in its
large-scale (Clausius) form, where the number of
interacting entities (atoms, say) is of the order of
Avogadro’s number (6 * 1024 approximately).
When a system gets small, the interactions between the
small number of degrees of freedom being monitored and the
wider Universe can easily lead the entropy of the small
system to go up and down. It’s true even in an isolated
small system. There’s no quantum magic about that. It’s
just a consequence of the fact that the Law of Large
Numbers is just a law of large numbers.

          The so-called "arrow of time" implicated in the

ever-increasing entropy of an isolated system can easily
reverse in a tiny system simply because there aren’t
enough degrees of freedom to smooth the statistics.
Sometimes one degree of freedom by chance gets a lot of
energy from all the others, which “cool” right down
because of conservation of energy, decreasing the overall
entropy of the system. One of my favourite Physics book
series as a child was George Gamow’s “Mr Tomkins” series.
I remember two titles “Mr. Tomkins in Wonderland” and “Mr.
Tomkins Explores the Atom”. In one of them, Mr Tomkins
wakes from his exploration that explained the
Boltzmann-Gibbs approach to entropy to find his drink
freezing on one side of the glass and boiling on the
other. It was a physical possibility, but would have been
very unlikely to have been observed in the age of the
Universe.

          The observation of Mr Tomkins's glass is physically

possible, but has nothing to do with time reversal. It
simply has to do with the fact that it’s much easier to
find your way out of a small (unlikely) region of a
possibility space than it is to find your way back to the
unlikely region by random moves. There’s no breaking of
the second law in it’s Boltzmann-Gibbs form where
“entropy” is determined by the sizes of spaces of possible
states that are “the same” from some observational
viewpoint, though there is in the Clausius form that
applies only to bulk systems. Mis-applying laws can get
them broken any time you want, as magicians know very
well.

              Martin
                  On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at

11:00 AM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net
wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.06.13.51]

                              [Bruce Nevin

2018-04-06_10:20:36 PT]

                                      "Living things constantly

strive against the second law
of thermodynamics, sucking in
energy to maintain the order
within their cells. Powering
all this are our bodies’
equivalent of heat engines:
mitochondria. So here’s an
intriguing question: given
that natural selection tends
to encourage efficiency, has
biology evolved quantum heat
engines? There is a hot debate
about whether any quantum
effects are important in
biology, but in my opinion
it’s not crazy to think that
evolution would produce the
most efficient engines
possible."

                                    The article is attached; you

need a subscription to see it on
the site at

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731720-400-im-building-a-machine-that-breaks-the-rules-of-reality/

                      That article was published on the closest

available date to April 1, was it not? There
are a few little details that would concern me
and might perhaps induce me to enquire further
had it been published in, say, June.

                      I grant that not all suspect articles

published around April 1 are spoofs. The first
article I ever saw on masers was in an April 1
issue, and I thought it must be a spoof, but
it wasn’t. Maybe this also is not, but if it
isn’t, why does it rely on the gross
thermodynamic statement of the second law as a
law, rather than on Boltzmann’s (or Gibbs)
probabilistic reasoning for why the law is in
practice almost always observed? The
probabilistic approach to entropy would seem
more appropriate to a quantum discussion,
would it not?

                          Martin