[From Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.08.1950EST)]
<Rick Marken (2001.11.08.1500)>
You are one of my favorite people on CSGNet. You add value to it, IMHO, and
you have helped me understand PCT better innumerable times. I am grateful
for that, want to be your PCT colleague, learn more about PCT _with_ you and
want you to stay active on the forum, even if you get off into politics,
religion, economics, etc., for which you are not recognized, at least by me,
as having any special insight above others.
You can be tough on other people at times, especially when they bastardize
PCT. I praise you for that, yes, even the crusade on "I see you have chosen"
was fine in my book based on your perceptions of the misapplication of PCT
principles.
Where your contributions seem to get offensive, is when you poke into the
lives, character, integrity or motives of other people beyond what they do or
say or write and you appear to judge them, not just what they say or do or
write in their books.
I won't repeat the litany of purported sins regarding anyone else, but, I
can, and shall speak for myself, hoping for understanding that will be
helpful to you and encourage you to keep you posting here on CSGNet, but
perhaps with some subtle changes of style (which you have said you would try
to do on several occasions). That might advance the science and the number
of active disciples of PCT, even if they happen to be Christians. I think
that is a shared goal?
<I was guessing about the amount of skepticism you _currently_ hold about
the Bible.>
Well, I am glad you admit you are guessing. Because you simply can't know
the degree of my skepticism, historically or currently, from the little
information you have on that subject. So, when you make observations about
people on guesses, you take a chance your observations will be in error, the
results flawed and people will be hurt.
So, why guess? Why not just ask me? Then you are free to comment on my
words, not on your guessed perceptions. Wouldn't that be a better approach?
And, before making any public observation on the net that my skepticism on
HPCT and the Bible may not be applied equally, why not ask me privately
first, if it really concerns you.
Incidentally, I do not see what legitimate concern you should have about
exactly how skeptical I am about what I read in the Bible? What business is
it of yours at all? On HPCT, I do see you commenting on this forum. Have I
guessed anything about your religious beliefs and made observations about how
foolish they might appear to be IMHO? I don't think I have. I hope not. It
really is none of my business.
<I think it's important for people to continue to treat all their ideas, even
those they "accept", with a certain degree of skepticism.>
Fine for you. But why do you think I should care about what you think I
should do about my ideas? It seems to me, the more one would understand PCT,
the less one would try to assert what others should and should not do that
doesn't affect you directly. How does the degree of my skepticism about what
I read in the Bible, even about human nature, really affect what you think
and believe about human nature?
Rail all you want about Jerry Falwell and him "blaming the victim" for
terrorism but to what purpose or result? Did your comments cause him to
retract his implications? Or, would he have done that because of what others
he knows or respects said to him in private. Well, about all I can figure
from PCT is that spouting off makes you feel better about yourself. Your
Twelfth Level seems more at ease. How about explaining the merit of your
observation from your view? Were you trying to help someone? And who? And
how?
<I still approach PCT with skepticism. That's why I am always
trying to develop ways to test the model.>
I hear you. I have no evidence to the contrary. I believe you. I applaud
you for this approach.
<It seems to me that, although you do approach PCT with some skepticism, you
don't approach the Bible with a similar degree of skepticism. If you are
skeptical about the Bible then all you have to do is say that you are. I'll
believe you.>
Boy, that will settle this and your concern so simply. I am very skeptical
of _every_ word I read in my English Bible. That is why I have concordances
that deal with the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts.
I don't blindly believe or proclaim that "it is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"
as my NIV Bible literally states. That sounds impossible. So, do I now
unskeptically believe that it is impossible for a rich man to ever be in
God's kingdom? Of course not. In fact, when you study a little you find
that the word for a piece of rope and the word for camel is easily mixed up
and apparently was by some translator. That makes the analogy at least a bit
more sensible and credible. But, the principle I believe holds, rich men who
love money more than God will find it very difficult to enter God's coming
kingdom on earth.
Now, Rick, have you learned anything new about me or the Bible or my degree
of current skepticism about the Bible? Do you want to know how Jesus could
be in the tomb three days and three nights and have been put there on Friday
afternoon and rose from his grave on Sunday morning? I am very skeptical
about this account widely accepted in Christianity and what the Bible says.
But, these are facetious questions. I am not really asking you for your
opinion. I do not recognize you as any authority. Whether I am sufficiently
skeptical about the Bible in your eyes, is not material to me in any way.
Why do you torture yourself about such matters in my life? And, I don't know
how it affects your life any way?
If I express an idea about HPCT, or the foibles of relying on science or
scientists, I would expect you to react and would seriously consider any
critique or wisdom you offer, or answer any questions straight away.
But, unless I claim my idea to be correct _just because_ my source may have
been the Bible, in other words, apriori, I am not sure why the source matters
(my mind, my Bible, some words of a scientist opposed to PCT, or my wife).
And, I have not made any such claims to my knowledge. I have written some
comparisons about what the differences are between Bill Powers views of human
nature are compared to what the Bible says. I find the Bible more
persuasive. But, I am not dogmatic about it. Have I written science books
registered with the Library of Congress to challenge Bill's proposals? Of
course not. They are just my perceptions. If no one agrees, or no one
cares, I am not applying for the greatest psychologist medal and life will go
on with more important matters being there for my control.
<I have noticed that you have managed to protect your "faith" in the
validity of Biblical ideas from verbal disturbances such as questions
about the validity of these ideas.>
This seems like babble to me, things in your head. I just answered you in
several ways and would have had you asked instead of conjectured.
<Moreover, you have rarely suggested ways to test the validity of Biblical
ideas.>
Why should I, especially on this net? I do all the time, way more than my
participation on CSGNet on several forums.
<That's what led me to guess that you were not very skeptical about Biblical
ideas.>
And, can't you see the folly in all this? Because I do not offer ways to
test the Bible on this forum, when most do not want to discuss such things,
you guess about whether I am sufficiently skeptical and accuse me of not
being so. This is building error upon error in your mind to satisfy some
point you wish to make in your mind which does not matter much to me.
Man, I am getting a headache.
<But if you are, then I think you should just say you are and not play the
(rather
unpleasant , from my perspective) "Rick is hitting below the belt" game
(also known as the "Rick attacked so-and-so's religion" game, the "Rick
accused so-and- so of being a Nazi" game and, of course, the ever-popular
"Rick is driving people away from CSGNet" game.>
Okay. I am as skeptical as I wish to be when I read things written by Bill
Powers or the Apostle John. But, I hope you will agree that my skepticism
has little bearing on whether either is in fact accurate. Now, can the game
we are _both_ playing end, peacefully? Or, do you guess that it is only
others who play games? Or am I still playing? Who knows or cares?
I think I will respond to your post about human errors as soon as I get a
chance. I have some comments on it that have no origin in the Bible. 
Perhaps we can discuss that and not play any accusatory games about religion
on this net? Nah, but perhaps for at least a post or two. 8-))
