Religious control systems

Chris_Cherpas · November 15, 2001, 3:34pm

[From Chris Cherpas (2001.11.15.0735 PT)]

Chris Cherpas (2001.11.14.1929 PT)--

Theists don't allow atheists to be free of religion. Consider
America's anti-communist reign of terror in the 1950's, in which "God"
became almost synonymous with America. Kenny, wouldn't you rather
America's slogan was "in many we are one" than "in God we trust?"
I thought the big idea in America was that we trusted ourselves,
the people, not some divine king/holy boss, to manage ourselves.
Conscientious objection requires a religious reason for not wanting to
kill.
Kids in schools are required to say "one nation, under God" routinely.
If I testify in court, I must swear to tell the truth by putting my hand

on

a bible and say "so help me God" -- as if I don't have better reasons for
telling the truth. We're backsliding, man, dropping rungs fast on the old
evolutionary latter like a bunch of drunks -- down, down into sheephood.

Woops. I meant ladder. Guess those rungs are more slippery than
I even imagined. Either that, or slow down on those Cosmopolitans.

Richard_Marken2 · November 15, 2001, 7:06pm

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.15.1030)]

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.14.1050EST)--

The "slave" remark is the kind of thing that Bill Powers hates and
will probably now admonish you to "grow up" or eliminate your agenda.

Bill Powers (2001.11.15.1009 MST)

You're right on all counts, Kenny. Vituperation merely lowers the
discussion to the spears-and-clubs level. Rants are always embarrassing
because they show the ranter in such a bad light while wasting all that
violent energy in accomplishing just the opposite of what is wanted. At
least I assume that Chris is not aiming to create sympathy for theists and
disgust for athiests.

I've enjoyed Chris's "rants" enormously. I thought they were passionate
but reasonable. I didn't see any hint of vituperation in them. I think
Kenny is being a tad disingenuous when he takes umbrage at being called
a "slave". In earlier discussions he proudly declared his uncoerced
"slavehood". I see nothing in Chris' posts that would create disgust for
atheists, unless one were already a theist. And most theists I know
already have disgust for atheists.

I don't think Chris's anti-theist writings will create any more sympathy
for atheists than did, say, Mark Twain's. But I don't think that's their
purpose. I think of them as verbal hor 'd'ouvres that clear the
intellectual palettes of those who enjoy a hearty meal of skepticism
with a little learning for dessert. I'd love to have another hor
'd'ouvres, Chris, if you have any left.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · November 15, 2001, 4:13pm

[From Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.14.1050EST)]

You have chosen to defend your atheistic reference perceptions on the CSGNet,
when no one has asked for them. At least you have answered confirming your
disgust with the millions of American's who pray to some supreme being for
blessing, including our President.

I won't do the same here to defend my, or such peoples, belief in Jesus as
their Savior, nor refute your atheistic point of view, or recall the
foundation of our American Constitution. There are plenty of other forums
and web sites to visit which do these things.

As before, if anyone on CSGNet wants my perceptions on religion, they can ask
me privately and I will answer privately.

However, if you prefer to discuss my control system

for religion, how about doing that privately with me?

<Nothing would be less enlightening. Discuss it with yourself,

slave.>

The first point is fine with me. The "slave" remark is the kind of thing
that Bill Powers hates and will probably now admonish you to "grow up"or
eliminate your agenda. Dag probably will rebuke you for being disrespectful,
especially on a professional forum on the life sciences. Mary will probably
just assume that you are "pissed off." Now Rick, he will probably discuss it
with you on CSGNet because he says he likes to discuss things, including what
others believe or do that he thinks is wrong or right. Slavery certainly
fits the bill.

<But, Kenny, you're not off the hook yet...>

Well, I guess you mean your hook? I am sorry to still hang there in your
eyes, but I don't feel on any hook at all and I hope to move from this topic
to a more PCT-oriented one.

Chris_Cherpas · November 16, 2001, 12:32am

[From Chris Cherpas (2001.11.15.1600 PT)]

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.14.1050EST)--

At least you have answered confirming your disgust with
the millions of American's who pray to some supreme being for
blessing, including our President.

Ken, you're learning... turning over a new leaf, are we?

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.14.1050EST)--

I won't do the same here to defend my, or such peoples, belief in Jesus as
their Savior, nor refute your atheistic point of view, or recall the
foundation of our American Constitution.

Finding "God" in the US Constitution is liking finding
the pope in a pizza. But, by the way, I don't idolize
the founding "fathers" (or the founding mothers); they're
just like us, but didn't have the pleasure of watching
Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV. Kenny, you are a slave to
the cult of heros and gods. Wake up and smell the perceptions.

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.14.1050EST)--

The "slave" remark is the kind of thing that Bill Powers hates
and will probably now admonish you to "grow up"or
eliminate your agenda

Actually, I was going to admonish you for thinking that
anyone on this list is interested in your sunday school
baby talk. I assume most of the people on this list are
grown ups, people who can think for themselves instead
of obeying the dead (yet deathless!) prose of a lot of
dead old farts who call themselves "saints." But, Kenny,
where's the research program? Does biblical knowledge
actually expand and become more coherent through continued
questioning, experimenting, and reformulating? Your only
sane answer is, "No."

Your god-descended (no, not daughter of Elisium) 12th
level is not the mind spring of a scientist; it is not even the
mess made by a baby playing with its feces (which, at least
suggests some creativity); it is the desparate hope of an infant
in adult's clothing (OK, an embryo in a clowns-for-christ outfit),
just waiting for some big, strong paternal force to save him from
having to live life. Crucifixion is the easy way out, dude; it's a
a cop-out.

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.14.1050EST)--

...I hope to move from this topic to a more PCT-oriented one.

Whoa! Forget everything I said. You're moving to a more
PCT-oriented topic? OK. Then I'm done being the anti-chris
for a while. Kenny, you are forgiven...No! Wait! I got one more:
You know how certain people like to say that "God" is just short for
"Good?" (get it?). I say it's short for "Godzilla."

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · November 16, 2001, 1:21am

[From Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.15.2000 EST)]

<You're right on all counts, Kenny. Vituperation merely lowers the
discussion to the spears-and-clubs level.>

I am glad you agree. [It is rare when anyone agrees with me lately on this
net, so every incident is worth acknowledging. 8-)]

PCT has made it clearer than ever to me why blaming, berating, accusing or
physically or mentally abusing others to try to get them to see things our
way, only leads to greater resistance and escalating conflict and strife
rather than the hoped for change by the vituperator. I guess bin Laden and
Bush don't see it our PCT way?
8-))

I have learned from PCT the folly in ranting even to those who many might
feel one has a valid reason (a right or even an obligation) to rant on: one's
children, spouse or employees. Over and over again, getting others to change
what they do is best approached by changing what you do; as in demonstrating
a better approach. This has helped me sharpen certain leadership skills and
methods in my teaching work.

I won't touch that with a ten foot poll, certainly not publicly on this
forum. If one really wanted to know what Chris was really doing, I suppose
one could just ask Chris? Then, one could do the test for the controlled
variable to see if his answer was honest. I see this as helpfully
applying PCT to real life which is even more fascinating to me than models of
real life.

Respectfully,

Kenny

Kenneth_Kitzke_Value · November 16, 2001, 1:47am

[From Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.15.2030 EST)]

<I've enjoyed Chris's "rants" enormously. I thought they were passionate
but reasonable. I didn't see any hint of vituperation in them.>

Just as I predicted.
[Now Rick, he will probably discuss it with you on CSGNet because he says he
likes to discuss things, including what others believe or do that he thinks
is wrong or right. Slavery certainly fits the bill.] I must have guessed
what you control for Rick.

Caught red handed. Is your memory that good or did you do a search? But, I
am not too sure if the slavehood Chris envisioned is the same as mine. Nor
do I care enough to ask.

<I'd love to have another hor'd'ouvres, Chris, if you have any left.>

Nothing like food (or a fan club) to egg a man on to more tantalizing
perceptional morsels and greater self-satisfaction. I am blessed with a
"delete" key. Fire away Chris and Rick; at least until someone has the
audacity to object to the topic on CSGNet.

Richard_Marken2 · November 16, 2001, 3:41pm

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.16.0740)]

Me:

I think Kenny is being a tad disingenuous when he takes umbrage at being
called a "slave". In earlier discussions he proudly declared his uncoerced
"slavehood".

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.15.2030 EST)

Caught red handed. Is your memory that good or did you do a search?

No search. Just pure memory. Fortunately, memory is the _second_ thing to go.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org