Reorganization and Trial-and-error

[From Bill Powers (2009.08.01.0930 MDT)]

GP: Hello Bill. Drs. david goldstein david london john white and i just were speaking today of trial and error learning as containing the very stuff of reorganization. Trial and error seems more purposeful than random to me. Would you kindly expouse on this a bit bill.

I just thought of a quick demo of reorganization. Do you know that you can cause a coin to come up heads or tails, whichever you want, whenever you want?

Suppose you intend it to come up heads. You flip the coin, and if it's tails you flip it again and so on. You stop when it shows heads. Then you step back and say "Voila!" Works every time, though sometimes it can take more reorganizations (flips) than other times.

Your output function is the flipping. It causes random changes in the way the coin lands. You keep applying the reorganization until the error is zero.

Best,

Bill P.

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At 08:53 PM 7/31/2009 -0400, Gary Padover wrote:

Thx again bill for elucidating. gary

[From Fred Nickols (2009.08.01.1342 EDT)]

Hmm. I take that to mean that when I flip a coin there is in fact (some of the time) a certain flip and a certain position of a certain coin on my thumb that will result in the coin coming up heads (or tails as the case may be). As a flawed and variable output human being, I can't achieve that particular configuration or exert that particular behavioral output in exactly the same way every time.

However, presumably I (well, not me, but someone) could design and engineer a coin-flipping device that would indeed get heads or tails all or almost all of the time (in a vacuum of course). But that wouldn't be a closed-loop feedback-governed system would it?

···

--
Regards,

Fred Nickols
Managing Partner
Distance Consulting, LLC
nickols@att.net
www.nickols.us

"Assistance at A Distance"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET>

I just thought of a quick demo of reorganization. Do you know that
you can cause a coin to come up heads or tails, whichever you want,
whenever you want?

Suppose you intend it to come up heads. You flip the coin, and if
it's tails you flip it again and so on. You stop when it shows heads.
Then you step back and say "Voila!" Works every time, though
sometimes it can take more reorganizations (flips) than other times.

Your output function is the flipping. It causes random changes in the
way the coin lands. You keep applying the reorganization until the
error is zero.

[From Rick Marken (2009.08.01.1440)]

Fred Nickols (2009.08.01.1342 EDT) re: Bill’s coin flipping demonstration of reorganization

Hmm. I take that to mean that when I flip a coin there is in fact (some of the time) a certain flip and a certain position of a certain coin on my thumb that will result in the coin coming up heads (or tails as the case may be).

No. It’s much simpler than that. The result of any coin flip (assuming a fair coin) is “heads” with probability .5. But you can monitor the result of each flip and if your reference is for the result to be “heads” then you flip until the result is “heads”; and when you get “heads” you stop flipping. You are using a random output (the coin flip) to produce an intended result (“heads”).

A better way to see how the e. coli process works is by being the “Subject” in my “Selection of consequences” demo (http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/Select.html). Your output is a push of the space bar. The result of that output is a random change in the direction of movement (a tumble) of the little open circle (e. coli). If you have the goal of getting the open circle to the closed circle then you push the space bar when the open circle is not moving where you want and don’t press the space bar when the circle is moving where you want. So the time between outputs (tumbles) is short when the random change is undesireable and long when it is desireable.

This is how reorganization supposedly works. The output of the reorganization process (like your press of the space bar) produces random results. The reorganization system (you, in the case of the demo) perceives these results and compares them to a reference for what the results should be. If a randomly produced result of action is not anything like the reference, then the system acts again immediately to produce a new, random result. If the result is close to being like the reference then there is a longer delay until a new result is produced.

This is a surprisingly efficient control process that works even though the results of action are completely random. Applied to evolution, it suggests that random genetic mutation may be driven by intrinsic error in a population. When intrinsic error is large in a population of organisms the random mutation rate would increase (this is analogous to quickly hitting the space bar again when the little circle isn’t going the right way). When intrinsic error is low the mutation rate goes down. This would lead to a much more efficient adaptive evolutionary process than simple “survival of the fittest” with a constant (and very low) mutation rate.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

Thanks for your elaboration upon trial and error and randomness. Have a good weekend. Btw how do you like having manny on the dodgers. gary padover

Thx rick.the manny l.a. Dodger question was addressed to u rick. gary p.

[From Rick Marken (2009.08.01.1515)]

···

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Gary Padover garypadov@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for your elaboration upon trial and error and randomness. Have a good weekend. Btw how do you like having manny on the dodgers. gary padover

Hi Gary.

You’re welcome.

And who is Manny? That Manny I remember is Manny Mota. Couldn’t be him, right?

I love going to Dodger stadium but nowadays it’s mainly for the Dodger dogs.

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.08.01.1623 MDTY)]

Fred Nickols (2009.08.01.1342 EDT) -0-

Hmm. I take that to mean that when I flip a coin there is in fact (some of the time) a certain flip and a certain position of a certain coin on my thumb that will result in the coin coming up heads (or tails as the case may be). As a flawed and variable output human being, I can't achieve that particular configuration or exert that particular behavioral output in exactly the same way every time.

You're so nice, Fred, that you wouldn't dream of accusing me of cheating. But I did. Don't overcomplicate reorganization.

When I flip the coin in the air, I do it a little differently each time and the coin spins a different number of times and lands at different angles and so on and so forth, with the net result that there is a 50-50 chance of getting heads (or tails if you intend to produce tails). So you have a 50% chance of getting the result you want on the first toss. Viola!

But what if you don't get the right result the first time? Why, you pick up the coin and toss it again. You have a 75% chance of getting the result you want in two tosses, a 99.6% chance of getting it in 8 tosses. That's how random reorganization works: if you don't get the result you want the first time, you reorganize again immediately. And you keep doing that until you succeed.

Suppose there's a jar holding 100 white marbles and 10 black marbles. The jar is covered with a black cloth so you can't see inside it, and all the marbles feel the same. If you announce your intention of pulling out a black marble by picking blindly, what are your odds of doing it if you start with the same mix of marbles every time (that is a broad hint).

If you use the principle of PCT reorganization, the odds are as high as your patience permits. If you don't get the black marble on the first trial, you throw the white one back in, shake the jar, and reorganize again. According to the principle of reorganization, you keep reorganizing every time the wrong result is obtained, so after 65 reorganizations you'd have a 99.9% chance of getting a black marble (that is, a 99.9% chance of not getting 65 white marbles in a row). If you chose white, it wouldn't take so long. Note that I didn't say your intention was to pull out a black marble THE FIRST TIME. I just said that you intended to pull out a black marble. You may have imagined that I meant "the first time," but I didn't say that. You keep pulling marbles out and throwing white ones back in until you get a black one as you intended. Even though you are selecting them at random, you can control for getting a black one with a high probability of (eventual) success.

Is it sinking in? How do you shake exactly 7 pills out of a bottle of pills so you can fill your 7-day pill dispenser? Well, you shake some pills out and count them. If there are less than 7, you shake some more into your hand. If you have more than 7 you throw the excess back in the bottle. You can't control the number of pills that come out very well, but since you can keep reorganizing as long as the number isn't right, you will end up with exactly 7 pills every time. Random variation of output, selection process to control the result.

What are the chances of throwing a 7 at a dice table, getting a straight flush hand, betting on 7 and winning at the roulette wheel? If you're allowed to reorganize, it's essential 100% in each case. Oh, the casino won't let you keep trying until you get what you want? That would be cheating? Tough for the customers; they ought to stay out of places like that.

Do the E. coli reorganization experiment in Chapter 7 of LCS3. Start it with the Run button, then click on Tumble (bottom center) to change the direction of the moving red dot and (you hope) get it to the target circle in the center. After the first Tumble button click, pressing the space bar will do the same thing. Slow the speed if you have trouble reacting fast enough.

On each Tumble-click or space-bar press, a reorganization takes place: the red dot becomes a spinning bacterium for a moment (a nice touch by Bruce Abbott), then takes off in a new direction. The chances of getting the right direction as a result are pretty small, but they aren't zero. When you get the hang of it, you will find that an average of 10 to 15 tumbles is enough to get to the target. The cumulative number of tumbles per hit is shown at the bottom of the screen. You can click on a radio button to have a model do the clicking; it works faster but takes roughly the same number of tumbles on average to hit the target.

You can click another radio button to see how many random changes are needed to hit the target just by jumping around the two-dimensional plotting area at random. I get numbers like 50 times as many changes, with a far larger ratio if we reorganize in 3 dimensions. Maybe JRK can calculate the ratio for reorganizing in more dimensions than 2 at the same time. I think evolution, to be a feasible process, requires E. coli reorganization.

Best,

Bill P.

Rick. Its manny ramirez. Btw i still pick up dodger games back east and enjoy vin scullys announcing.gary p.