Requirement

[From Rick Marken (01.04.07.1740)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0407.1819)--

Perhaps someone can explain your obsession with this ["I see
you have chosen...] phrase to me.

I've explained it many times. My "obsession" is based on the fact
that the phrase is recommended for use in certain circumstances
as part of a program that purports to be based on an understanding
of PCT. I think anyone who understands PCT would instantly see
many things wrong with the phrase "I see you have chosen" as it
is recommended for use in this program. For example, I think anyone
familiar with PCT would instantly see that use of the phrase is
1) dishonest because the person saying it has not done what is
necessary (the test for the controlled variable) to determine
whether the "chosen" result has actually been chosen and 2) a poor
model for responsible behavior because the person saying it is
evading his own responsibility for making a choice by attributing
it to another. So even if this phrase is not actually used in
the program (which apparently it is not) I would like to see the
recommendation for its use removed from descriptions of the program.
This would reassure me that the program is, indeed, based on a PCT
view of human nature.

Perhaps you can explain why you have a problem with my "obsession"
with the "I see you have chosen..." phrase. Don't you think that
the PCT view of behavior should inform educational practice?

Best regards

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0408.0654)]

Rick Marken (01.04.07.1740)

Bruce Gregory (2001.0407.1819)--

> Perhaps someone can explain your obsession with this ["I see
> you have chosen...] phrase to me.

I've explained it many times.

I know. What I don't know is why you feel compelled to go on explaining it
over and over again or why you feel compelled to keep bringing the subject
up. Apparently you think that this one statement is the heart of RTP, but
why you refuse to give up worrying this particular bone escapes me. That's
what I was hoping to learn.

Perhaps you can explain why you have a problem with my "obsession"
with the "I see you have chosen..." phrase. Don't you think that
the PCT view of behavior should inform educational practice?

Frankly, I have never been able to find an application for PCT in
educational practice. It's a nice way to demonstrate conflict, but conflict
really has little to do with learning. I think teachers begin to make
progress when they realize that learning is about pattern recognition and
begin to see how difficult it is to affect that process in their students.
Fortunately, most learning has nothing to do with schooling. Were this not
the case, we'd be in real trouble.

BG

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0408.1312)]

Rick Marken (01.04.08.0940)

Some learning does seem to involve pattern recognition. What the
student has to learn to recognize, of course, is the same perceptual
aspects of the world perceived by the teacher.

You are talking about schooling, not about learning. Being "a good student"
involves learning how to convince the teacher that you have recognized the
same patterns that he or she recognizes. Lacking the same experiences as
the teacher, you can't really do this, but you can learn to fake it.

Although the teacher
can't really affect this process, I think he can influence it.
For example, the teacher can teach children to recognize the patterns
he perceives as "dog" by _pointing_ at his own perceptions of dogs
(rather than those of cats, houses, streets, etc).

Do you really think that's how we learn to recognize dogs? Or that we need
teachers to accomplish this? I'll bet you knew what a dog was before you
went to school and that you learned this is a haphazard way without formal
instruction.

But it seems
to me that pattern recognition is only a small part of learning.

Yes. I understand that. If you understood pattern recognition better you
would see why this is untrue.

You have to learn to perceive other types perceptions besides
patterns: transitions, sequences, relationships, principles, etc.

All of these are examples of patterns. If you weren't so committed to the
taxonomy of PCT you might be able to see this.

And to the extent that you want to control these perceptions you
have to learn _how_ to vary the references for lower level per-
ceptions as the means of controlling these perceptions.

Learning "how" follows learning "that." Both processes are hard-wired into
the brain and nervous system.

Learning
to play Bach is more than a matter of learning to recognize
patterns.

Of course. But if you don't recognize the patterns you can't reproduce them
can you?

BG

[From Rick Marken (01.04.08.0940)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0407.1819)--

Perhaps someone can explain your obsession with this ["I see
you have chosen...] phrase to me.

Me:

I've explained it many times.

Bruce Gregory (2001.0408.0654)]

I know. What I don't know is why you feel compelled to go on
explaining it over and over again or why you feel compelled to
keep bringing the subject up. Apparently you think that this
one statement is the heart of RTP, but why you refuse to give
up worrying this particular bone escapes me. That's what I was
hoping to learn.

This is where an understanding of PCT would help you. I am
obviously controlling a perception that is disturbed by those
who disguise their own controlling by saying that they are
"giving a choice" and then saying "I see you have chosen..."
when the "wrong" choice is made. When Bruce Nevin recently brought
this topic up again, I responded to his post as the means of
keeping a perception -- the perception of being honest about
one's own controlling -- under control. Bruce Nevin's post,
and my reply to it, had nothing to do with RTP. Bruce posted a
document that was apparently to be read by Spanish conquistators
to conquered Indians explaining to the Indians that they "had a
choice": they could obey the Spanish King or becoming slaves. The
document explicitly said that the conquistators did not consider
themselves reponsible for the violence that they would inflict
if the Indians chose not to obey the King (of course, all this
was said to the Indians in a language they could not understand
anyway). The content of the Spanish document was a huge dis-
turbance to my the perception of being honest about one's own
controlling and so I responded to Bruce's post. Since Bruce
presumably posted it to illustrate what was wrong with the idea
of "giving a choice" I was actually responding positively to
Bruce by acknowledging the delicious evil revealed in the Spanish
document.

Me:

Perhaps you can explain why you have a problem with my "obsession"
with the "I see you have chosen..." phrase. Don't you think that
the PCT view of behavior should inform educational practice?

Bruce G.

Frankly, I have never been able to find an application for PCT
in educational practice.

That's too bad.

I think teachers begin to make progress when they realize that
learning is about pattern recognition and begin to see how
difficult it is to affect that process in their students.

Some learning does seem to involve pattern recognition. What the
student has to learn to recognize, of course, is the same perceptual
aspects of the world perceived by the teacher. Although the teacher
can't really affect this process, I think he can influence it.
For example, the teacher can teach children to recognize the patterns
he perceives as "dog" by _pointing_ at his own perceptions of dogs
(rather than those of cats, houses, streets, etc). But it seems
to me that pattern recognition is only a small part of learning.
You have to learn to perceive other types perceptions besides
patterns: transitions, sequences, relationships, principles, etc.
And to the extent that you want to control these perceptions you
have to learn _how_ to vary the references for lower level per-
ceptions as the means of controlling these perceptions. Learning
to play Bach is more than a matter of learning to recognize
patterns.

Best regards

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Nevin (010408 18:18 EDT)]

Rick Marken (01.04.08.0940)--

I am [...] controlling a perception that is disturbed by those
who disguise their own controlling by saying that they are
"giving a choice" and then saying "I see you have chosen..."
when the "wrong" choice is made. When Bruce Nevin recently brought
this topic up again, I responded to his post as the means of
keeping a perception -- the perception of being honest about
one's own controlling -- under control. Bruce Nevin's post,
and my reply to it, had nothing to do with RTP.

I agree.

Bruce posted a
document that was apparently to be read by Spanish conquistators
to conquered Indians explaining to the Indians that they "had a
choice": they could obey the Spanish King or becoming slaves. The
document explicitly said that the conquistators did not consider
themselves reponsible for the violence that they would inflict
if the Indians chose not to obey the King (of course, all this
was said to the Indians in a language they could not understand
anyway). The content of the Spanish document was a huge dis-
turbance to my the perception of being honest about one's own
controlling and so I responded to Bruce's post. Since Bruce
presumably posted it to illustrate what was wrong with the idea
of "giving a choice" I was actually responding positively to
Bruce by acknowledging the delicious evil revealed in the Spanish
document.

Since the subject of RTP has come up in the sequel, however, why not compare the two situations.

Columbus: unintelligible language

RTP Teacher: language that is understood

Columbus: first mention

RTP Teacher: reminder of principles, social arrangements, and processes that have been extensively discussed before, and which are among the things that the teacher is teaching

Columbus: Immediate application of lethal force is the purpose

RTP Teacher: Coercion is a background possibility if a kid continues disruption without reference to the RTP principles, social arrangments, and processes, or explicitly rejects them outright.

RTP Student:
Something like "oops!" -> life goes on as usual.
Second "Oops!" -> asked/told to go to the RTC.
Something like "To hell with you!" -> told to go to the RTC.
Refuse to go to the RTC -> Removed by coercion.

Arawak person in Haiti (or others later):
Robbed, then enslaved or killed regardless of what they say or do.

RTP Teacher: Statement of purpose is to teach.

Columbus: Statement of purpose is to enrich the King and Queen of Spain (and himself, and those with him).

RTP Teacher: Conduct afterward is to teach.

Columbus: Conduct afterward is to "live like a soldier" (in words by a contemporary observer), meaning, with slaves feeding and supporting him, even physically carrying him around, digging for gold, and being added to cargo shipped back to Spain.

RTP Teacher: Says the aim is that the student should learn to think responsibly. Use of the "choice" statement is optional, and some testimony suggests that it is rare.
Columbus: Says the aim is that the Spaniards should be blameless. Historical evidence suggests that it was used repeatedly in a formulaic kind of way.

RTP schools: Described as calm, productive, with all parties treating one another with respect, etc.

Haiti, etc.: People once described as beautiful, strong, generous, intelligent are described as ugly, vicious, stupid. Population reduced by 90-96% in a few years, then gone, supplanted with blacks from Africa.

I think we can see here, for RTP teachers on the one hand and for Columbus and his followers on the other, some congruence between stated aims and actual results, and some evidence that the stated aims refer to actually controlled variables, and that disturbances to the values of those variables are resisted. And I think that we can see here some contrast between the aims that are controlled by the RTP teachers vs. those controlled by the Conquistadores.

I don't care about finding a better way for Columbus and his folks to feel blameless. Good luck to them.

We might be able to contribute to finding a way for teachers to teach responsible thinking. Rather, since the complaints are really about use of the "choice" language in the textbook teaching teachers about RTP, and no one is sure that teachers actually do use this phrase in the classroom, we might suggest a better way to convey to teachers how to go about teaching responsible thinking in an RTP setting. Specifically how to respond to disruptions and how to use the RTC as a resource.

The proposal that Rick called "Rick's Teaching Program" does not address this. In that proposal, the teacher does nothing more than gently but firmly (and coercively) remove a disrupting student from the classroom to the RTC so that the teacher can go on teaching without disruption.

The "I see you have chosen" phrase is inconsistent with the aim of teaching social responsibility because it is dishonest in the way that Columbus's "Requirement" is dishonest.

As I understand it, the aim of the "I see you have chosen" phrase is for the student to take responsibility for being presently unable to learn what the teacher is teaching in the classroom, to take responsibility for figuring out a how to do that, and to go off to the RTC for that purpose.

There is an agreed rule about disruption during teaching, the kid has been reminded of it and has agreed that she remembers and agrees to it, but has disrupted teaching again. What can the teacher say and do at that particular juncture to control for the above aims without dishonesty?

One approach would be to observe what teachers actually do say and do, and to draw recommendations from those observations, and put those recommendations in place of the "I see you have chosen" phrase in the teacher-teaching materials. But imaginative PCT researchers might be able to come up with recommendations without that.

         Bruce Nevin

···

At 09:41 04/08/2001 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (01.04.08.2000)]

Bruce Nevin (010408 18:18 EDT)--

The "I see you have chosen" phrase is inconsistent with the
aim of teaching social responsibility because it is dishonest
in the way that Columbus's "Requirement" is dishonest.

Yes. I agree completely.

There is an agreed rule about disruption during teaching, the
kid has been reminded of it and has agreed that she remembers
and agrees to it, but has disrupted teaching again. What can
the teacher say and do at that particular juncture to control
for the above aims without dishonesty?

It seems easy enough to me. The teacher should just be honest
about it and say something like "We agreed that you would leave
after two disruptions; you have disrupted twice so you have to
leave".

Best regards

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0409.0943)]

Rick Marken (01.04.08.2000)

It seems easy enough to me. The teacher should just be honest
about it and say something like "We agreed that you would leave
after two disruptions; you have disrupted twice so you have to
leave".

This is only appropriate if the student has agreed. What if the student has
not agreed? (It is difficult for me to belive that a disruptive student
would voluntarily agree to such a course of action, but I may be wrong, of
course.)

BG

[From Bill Powers (2001.04.09.0643 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (010408 18:18 EDT)--

One approach would be to observe what teachers actually do say and do, and
to draw recommendations from those observations, and put those
recommendations in place of the "I see you have chosen" phrase in the
teacher-teaching materials. But imaginative PCT researchers might be able
to come up with recommendations without that.

A welcome contribution, Bruce N., that should put this subject to rest.
I'll sum up my view and then let it go.

No one ever suggested that RTP teachers were like Columbus or
Conquistadores or Russian or Nazi dictators; those extreme images were
simply an escalation of the argument in the attempt to illustrate what was
wrong with a particular way of shifting responsibility -- illustrating this
to others who apparently (and to me, inexplicably) saw nothing wrong with
the "I see you have chosen ..." formulation. In the context of RTP, my
objection was that use of this assertion was probably detrimental to the
teachers' otherwise laudatory goal of treating students with respect, as
well as inconsistent with the goal of teaching (by example) the taking of
responsibility for effects of one's own actions. This was by no means an
indictment of RTP or its teachers, although the almost universal reaction
to my remarks was to assume I saw RTP as a failure or even something evil.

All through this elaborate fiasco I tried, without remarkable success, to
emphasize that I was objecting to written descriptions, not to anything I
knew about actual practices in RTP classrooms. A mere revision of the
textbooks should fix the problem, I thought (while any teachers actually
using this practice could quietly cease as in nolo contendere, without
admitting any wrongdoing). I was therefore astonished to find that some
readers objected strongly to my words. I was astonished because I thought
this meant that they supported the use of "I see you have ... blah blah
blah". I should have realized that all those irrelevant defenses of RTP
indicated that they thought I was criticizing Ed's program, and they were
simply defending the program without really considering the specific
objection. _Anything_ I said with a negative sound to it would have aroused
the same defenses; they weren't really reading what I said, only (in a neat
phrase Mary made up) "grooving on the sounds of the words."

Well, OK, I guess that's just how things are. Transferring any part of the
contents of one brain to another is a long slow uncertain process with
pitfalls and setbacks all along the way. Murphy's Law of Linguistics says
that anything that can be misconstrued will be misconstrued. A corollary is
that people seeking agreement through communication always assume they
agree long before they really know what they are agreeing to. Then, of
course, they are astonished when they discover that disagreements remain.

To some, the haggling over a phrase is a side-issue of no importance, the
main issue being that there was a criticism of some sort of the RTP
program. To me, the only issue of any importance was the phrase and its
implications; there never was any important criticism of RTP.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (01.04.09.0820)]

Me:

It seems easy enough to me. The teacher should just be honest
about it and say something like "We agreed that you would leave
after two disruptions; you have disrupted twice so you have to
leave".

Bruce Gregory (2001.0409.0943)

This is only appropriate if the student has agreed. What if the student has
not agreed? (It is difficult for me to belive that a disruptive student
would voluntarily agree to such a course of action, but I may be wrong, of
course.)

Bruce Nevin assumed that the kids agree beforehand to leave _if_ they
disrupt twice. If they don't agree, then, of course, you would just
leave out the part about "We agreed that you would leave after two
disruptions".

Best

Rick

[From Rick Marken (01.04.09.2140)]

Bill Powers (2001.04.09.0643 MDT) --

I should have realized that all those irrelevant defenses of
RTP indicated that they thought I was criticizing Ed's program,
and they were simply defending the program without really
considering the specific objection...

To some, the haggling over a phrase is a side-issue of no
importance, the main issue being that there was a criticism of
some sort of the RTP program. To me, the only issue of any
importance was the phrase and its implications; there never was
any important criticism of RTP.

Suppose that you actually _had_ been critical of the RTP program.
Would you have thought you were doing something wrong?

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers(2001.04.11.1144 MDT)]

Rick Marken (01.04.09.2140)--

To me, the only issue of any
importance was the phrase and its implications; there never was
any important criticism of RTP.

Suppose that you actually _had_ been critical of the RTP program.
Would you have thought you were doing something wrong?

Never crossed my mind either way. I was just noting some details that I
thought would improve the program.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (01.04.11.1630)]

Me:

Suppose that you actually _had_ been critical of the RTP program.
Would you have thought you were doing something wrong?

Bill Powers (2001.04.11.1144 MDT)-

Never crossed my mind either way. I was just noting some details that I
thought would improve the program.

Is noting some details that you thought might improve the program not
the same as being critical of the program? Were you being critical of
S-R theory, reinforcement theory, modern control theory and behavior
modification or were you just noting some details that you thought would
improve them?

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken, PhD
RAND
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018

[From Bill Powers (2001.04.12.0659 MDT)]

Rick Marken (01.04.11.1630)--

Is noting some details that you thought might improve the program not
the same as being critical of the program?

Not at all the same. I think the program is excellent, and is a good move
toward applying PCT in real life, though there are places where it could be
done better. One speck of dirt on the piano doesn't mean that the whole
living room is a mess.

Were you being critical of
S-R theory, reinforcement theory, modern control theory and behavior
modification or were you just noting some details that you thought would
improve them?

It varies. I think S-R theory, behavior modification, and reinforcement
theory have irredeemable flaws and should be trashed. Modern control theory
has some useful applications to hardware systems, and might even have
something to say about higher levels of living systems, so I wouldn't trash
it, although I haven't seen any need for it yet.

I'd say the answer to your basic question is that there are degrees of
criticism from very mild to devastating, depending on how many details are
being criticized. If you think that a whole program should be destroyed
just because of one relatively minor mistake, you're being more severe
toward others than you are toward yourself.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 11:58 EDT)]

Bill Powers(2001.04.11.1144 MDT)--

···

At 11:46 04/11/2001 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:

Rick Marken (01.04.09.2140)--

>>To me, the only issue of any
>> importance was the phrase and its implications; there never was
>> any important criticism of RTP.
>
>Suppose that you actually _had_ been critical of the RTP program.
>Would you have thought you were doing something wrong?

Never crossed my mind either way. I was just noting some details that I
thought would improve the program.

What you say depends solely on your intentions. What you tell someone depends upon their control of what you say. The rhetorical effect -- in this case whether or not there was criticism of RTP -- is in the latter. Communication involves a feedback loop between autonomous control systems. If the loop is not closed, there are words for it other than communication.

         Bruce Nevin

[From Rick Marken (01.04.12.0920)]

Bill Powers (2001.04.12.0659 MDT)--

I'd say the answer to your basic question is that there are degrees of

criticism from very mild to devastating, depending on how many details

are

being criticized. If you think that a whole program should be

destroyed

just because of one relatively minor mistake, you're being more severe

toward others than you are toward yourself.

I don't think that a whole program should necessarily be destroyed
because of one (or many) relatively minor (or even major) mistakes. But
I do think that any program (or theory, model or research activity)
should be willing to deal with criticism, from mild to devastating,
either by defending against it or by changing based on it, whichever
seems appropriate.

One of the things that is most attractive to me about PCT is the
willingness of its practitioners (including its developer) to take all
criticism, from mild to devastating, seriously (your dialog with Bruce
Gregory is a model of that). Indeed, even better is your willingness to
deal with _your own_ criticisms of the theory that you yourself
invented. My own research on PCT has been a continuous "critical attack"
on the theory, an attack which the theory continues to weather quite
well.

My "basic question" to you about criticism of RTP was based on your
earlier post [Bill Powers (2001.04.09.0643 MDT)] in which you seemed to
be going out of your way to make it sound like you were _not_
criticizing RTP at all or, if you were, that it was so minor as to not
merit consideration. This was troubling to me, not because I have any
important criticisms of RTP, but because it seemed that you were tacitly
supporting the idea, which seems to be prevalent in the RTP community,
that RTP should not suffer criticism from anyone except, possibly, those
in the RTP community itself. This is the aspect of RTP that has always
been most troubling to me. The program itself seems fine. It's the
attitude of those in the program toward _any_ criticism of that program
that has been most troubling to me. This aversion to criticism seems
totally out of synch with the scientific spirit and self-critical
attitude that is at the heart of PCT, the approach to understanding
human nature upon which RTP is purportedly built.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken, PhD
RAND
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018

[From Rick Marken (01.04.12.0930)]

Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 11:58 EDT)

What you say depends solely on your intentions.

What you say (the words you output) depends on your intentions
(references) _and_ disturbances: o ~ r-d. What you _perceive_ (as the
result of that output), when that perception is controlled and when
control is good, depends almost solely on your intentions: p ~r.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, PhD
RAND
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018

[From Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 12:58 EDT)]

Rick Marken (01.04.12.0930)--

···

At 09:31 04/12/2001 -0700, Richard Marken wrote:

Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 11:58 EDT)

> What you say depends solely on your intentions.

What you say (the words you output) depends on your intentions
(references) _and_ disturbances: o ~ r-d. What you _perceive_ (as the
result of that output), when that perception is controlled and when
control is good, depends almost solely on your intentions: p ~r.

Your point is well taken as a technical point. As a practical matter (which is what we are concerned with), disturbances during the production of an utterance (speech or email) have very little bearing on the question. The relevant disturbances arise when we perceive what the other person does or does not understand.

         Bruce Nevin

[From Rick Marken (01.04.12.1020)]

Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 12:58 EDT)--

Your point is well taken as a technical point. As a practical matter

(which

is what we are concerned with), disturbances during the production of

an

utterance (speech or email) have very little bearing on the question.

The

relevant disturbances arise when we perceive what the other person

does or

does not understand.

There's our problem. You think PCT applies only in "technical", not
"practical" situations. I think PCT applies to all instances of control
and that, therefore, o ~r-d and p~r whenever a person is controlling. If
a person is controlling for "being understood" his outputs (what he
says) and disturbances (what his audience says) are continuously
integrated into a perception of "understoodness"., which the person
tries to keep under control by varying his output (what he says).

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, PhD
RAND
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018

[From Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 15:20 EDT)]

Rick Marken (01.04.12.1020)--

There's our problem. You think PCT applies only in "technical", not
"practical" situations. I think PCT applies to all instances of control
and that, therefore, o ~r-d and p~r whenever a person is controlling. If
a person is controlling for "being understood" his outputs (what he
says) and disturbances (what his audience says) are continuously
integrated into a perception of "understoodness"., which the person
tries to keep under control by varying his output (what he says).

Let me put it this way. During speaking or typing, control is almost always so very good that disturbances are successfully resisted and the effects of disturbances are negligible for both speaker and hearer, or for both typist and reader, and so for the communication loop between them. Therefore, for the topic at hand (communication) these disturbances have little or no relevance.

Other disturbances are very relevant, but they all involve the other party in a communication loop. If that person does or says something that the speaker (typist) perceives is because they did not understand, or understood something other than intended, or disagreed, etc., that is a disturbance of this other sort. Or if the person takes a minor part of what was said and responds as though it were the topic. Sometimes this reflects misunderstanding; sometimes it reflects high gain on controlling the new topic; sometimes it reflects effort to distract and prevent communication from continuing on the original main topic.

Rick, I omitted mentioning possible disturbances while e.g. I am saying or typing the word "disturbances." This does not mean that I do not think that PCT applies. For you to say so to me is surprising. I think I have demonstrated an understanding of the basic principles of PCT over the past 10 years or more. So I ask you: why are you doing this? Is there something that you don't want me to talk about?

         Bruce Nevin

···

At 10:20 04/12/2001 -0700, Richard Marken wrote:

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0412.1545)]

Bruce Nevin (2001.04.12 15:20 EDT)

Rick, I omitted mentioning possible disturbances while e.g. I am saying or
typing the word "disturbances." This does not mean that I do not think that
PCT applies. For you to say so to me is surprising. I think I have
demonstrated an understanding of the basic principles of PCT over the past
10 years or more. So I ask you: why are you doing this? Is there something
that you don't want me to talk about?

If Rick is nothing else, he is consistent. Why would you ever imagine that
you could avoid his disdain if you differed with him in the slightest? Even
Bill is not exempt, as you might have noticed. Rick was sure that only he
and Bill truly understood PCT, and now, alas, he has begun to have doubts
about Bill.

BG