RTP

[From Bruce Nevin (980520.1644 EDT)]

Bruce Gregory (980520.1135 EDT)--

I only claim that RTP is applied PCT to yank Rick's chain.

Yanking someone's chain has an interesting relation to conflict, to
coercion, and to the Test. You're deliberately controlling a perception in
a way that disturbs another person's control of a perception. You're
creating a conflict with them to verify their resistance to the
disturbance. If you do this and then prevent them from resisting
successfully you have coerced them.

If the disturbance is not intended, is it coercion?

If there is no resistance, but resistance would be futile, Bill says it is
coercion.

In that case (if the disturbance is not intended, and there is no
resistance, but resistance would be futile) is it coercion?

  BN

[From Tim Carey (980521.0635)]

From[Marc Abrams (980520.1015)]\

Not trying to open a can of worms, but a little historical footnote.
RTP is based on Glassers _Reality Therapy_ not PCT.

Marc, on this point you have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest
you visit Ed's web page: www.respthink.com and read an article written by
Tom Bourbon comparing Ed's approach with Glasser's.

Cheers,

Tim

[From Bruce Gregory (980520.1700 EDT)]

Bruce Nevin (980520.1644 EDT)]

In that case (if the disturbance is not intended, and there is no
resistance, but resistance would be futile) is it coercion?

If only I could convince Rick that resistance would be futile... Coercion
would be the _only_ way I could get Rick to agree. (He'll probably even
disagree with this...) But to answer your question, it is coercion as long
as I am successful. (I haven't been successful yet, but perhaps there is a
first time.)

Best Offer

[From Tim Carey (980521.0710)]

From[Marc Abrams (980520.1015)]

I don't believe that this is true. If it were, the _first_ thing you
would want to do is find out _what_ the child is controlling for and
figuring out _if_ and _how_ the _child_ could eliminate the error.
This option is not even considered until the child _refuses_ to
cooperate by writing a plan that satisfies the _teacher_. At that
point an intervention team is called in to see if something can be
done.

I missed this point the first time, but again, Marc you are demonstrating
how little you know about the program when you start talking about the
processes involved.

Perhaps part of the problem is that you may have visited schools a few
years ago and one of the features of RTP is how it changes. With Tom
visiting the schools along with Ed their has been a constant striving to
align the RTP program ever more closely with the principles of PCT.

Last night, for example, I had a discussion group for people who are
currently using RTP in their schools. I hold these groups fortnightly and
about 10 people turn up. Last night we spent the first 45 minutes talking
specifically about the cv, what it was, how important it was, and how to
test for it. These kinds of discussions occur regularly with the schools
that I'm involved with.

I think, therefore, that we are probably having a parallel conversation.
You are talking about RTP based on your experiences of it and I am talking
about it based on my experiences. Our experiences seem very different.

Cheers,

Tim

[From Bill Powers (980620.2109 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (980520.1644 EDT)--

In that case (if the disturbance is not intended, and there is no
resistance, but resistance would be futile) is it coercion?

I'm still working on "has he hegemony, and must she submit?" And right
after that I have to deal with "Angels are miraculous beings, so is there
any physical limit to the number of them that could dance on the head of a
pin?"

Actually, the answer to your question is quite clear: an unintended
disturbance will not vary so as to produce a constant effect. Given that,
I'm sure you can work out the answer.

Best,

Bill P.

From [ Marc Abrams (980521.0943) ]

Hi Tim,

[From Tim Carey (980521.0635)]

From[Marc Abrams (980520.1015)]\
Not trying to open a can of worms, but a little historical footnote.
RTP is based on Glassers _Reality Therapy_ not PCT.

Marc, on this point you have no idea what you are talking about. I
suggest
you visit Ed's web page: www.respthink.com and read an article written
by
Tom Bourbon comparing Ed's approach with Glasser's.

Cheers,
Tim

Sorry Tim, you need to do your homework.

I am not looking to, nor will I get into a pissing contest with you
over this. In Glassers book _Control Theory_ written in 1984, in his
Acknowledgments he says;

" Since 1973, when I was introduced to Control Theory through William
T. Powers highly theoretical book _Behavior: The Control of
Perception_ (Chicago: Aldine,1973), I have been fascinated with the
possibilities of using this theory to add strength to our lives. This
book is my attempt to put these possibilities into practice, but it is
a book of ideas, not research.
    There is, however, a small but growing body of Psychological
research that, though independent of my work, is completely supportive
of _MY_ ( emphasis is mine ) control theory ideas ( I.e. _Reality
Therapy ). I am grateful to Dr. Ellen J. Langer of Harvard University
for compiling much of this corroborating research in her recent
well-documented book, _The Psychology of Control (Beverly Hills,
Calif: Sage Publications, 1983)".

If you haven't read it Tim, I suggest you do. It's always nice ( but
not always comfortable ) to have some historical perspective. One of
Glassers tenants was the _control_ of _BEHAVIOR_ not perception.
Toward that end he had some very unPCTish ideas :slight_smile:

What were some of those ideas? Glad you asked.

He felt that a written plan was useful and needed. Why?, so one could
see if one was _getting what they wanted_ through the "control" of
their _behavior_. Btw, Check out Ed's book _Freedom from Stress_
written in 1989 with the "Performance Plan" in it. Looks awfully
similar, but I may be mistaken.

In Chap. 17 _Taking Control of your Life_ ( I guess there was no pun
intended :slight_smile: ) He (Glasser) talks about how this mythical person ( his
case example ) _chooses_ to lead a life of misery. And to quote
directly from Pg 171, "... As soon as she realized that she was
choosing her misery (by _choosing_ her behavior, my note), she would
have asked herself the important control theory question "_Is the
criticizing and misery I am now choosing helping me get what I want?_"
Again, sounds awfully familiar. Replace behavior with perception and
bingo it moves from _Reality Therapy_ to PCT.

Need I go on? I don't think so. The point isn't to trash Ed and his
effort. I think Eds work is important, useful, and needed, but I don't
think he got the RTP from behind a burning bush. Tim, Like Rick, I
don't just understand what the big deal is.

Marc

Hi Tim,

[From Tim Carey (980521.0710)]

Me:

From[Marc Abrams (980520.1015)]
I don't believe that this is true. If it were, the _first_ thing you
would want to do is find out _what_ the child is controlling for and
figuring out _if_ and _how_ the _child_ could eliminate the error.
This option is not even considered until the child _refuses_ to
cooperate by writing a plan that satisfies the _teacher_. At that
point an intervention team is called in to see if something can be
done.

Your reply:
I missed this point the first time, but again, Marc you are
demonstrating
how little you know about the program when you start talking about the
processes involved.

Exactly _what_ part of the process did I make a mistake about? I was
not trying to describe _in detail_ each aspect of the process. My
point was and _is_, is that Ricks point about removing the conflict is
the main benefit of RTP. This is _not_, I repeat _NOT_ insignificant.
But as Bill stated a number of times. If two kids decided that they
would rather pass notes to each rather then listen to the teacher
Could they do it if they _DID NOT_ disrupt the learning of others or
the teaching of the teacher? No, and why not? Because the _INITIAL_
concern is to _ELIMINATE_ the conflict for the _TEACHER_ Not for the
child. I am _NOT_ saying this is a _bad_ thing. The question is not
about good or bad. The question is _ALWAYS_ can it be done better?

Please give a hand. What am I missing and where is the hole?

You said:
Perhaps part of the problem is that you may have visited schools a few
years ago and one of the features of RTP is how it changes.

My reply
Perhaps, But I just got the updated _Discipline for Home and School_.
The video, with Tom Bourbon and Ed discussing RTP and Control Theory.
I am trying to stay up to date. Tim, I believe in the program, but as
I said in a prior post, I don't think ED got RTP from behind a burning
bush. _What_ is there to be so damned defensive about.

You said
With Tom visiting the schools along with Ed their has been a constant
striving to
align the RTP program ever more closely with the principles of PCT.

My reply:

No question about it. Tom hooked up with Ed after I saw the program.
Ed has _always_ been totally committed to the program and to his
credit he moved away from Glassers Control of Behavior to PCT but
artifacts are sometimes a bitch to get rid of. _Especially_ if they
have _worked_ for you in the past.

I am also kind of curious as to why _you_ have become the sole RTP
spokesperson on CSG. What does Tom and Ed have to say? Why the lack
of interest on their part?

You said:
Last night, for example, I had a discussion group for people who are
currently using RTP in their schools. I hold these groups fortnightly
and
about 10 people turn up. Last night we spent the first 45 minutes
talking
specifically about the cv, what it was, how important it was, and how
to
test for it. These kinds of discussions occur regularly with the
schools
that I'm involved with.

My reply:
So?, Do you think I am saying that you _don't care_ about the childs
cv?
Nonsense. I am saying that the children are _secondary_
considerations. Maybe not in your heart but in the program Btw, how
many _children_ attend your evening discussions on CV's. After all
this is about _them_ isn't it.

You said:
I think, therefore, that we are probably having a parallel
conversation.
You are talking about RTP based on your experiences of it and I am
talking
about it based on my experiences. Our experiences seem very different.

My reply:
No, I am not talking about my _experiences_ with it. I was able to
observe some very dedicated people in action a few years ago. I just
don't think RTP was handed "down from the mountain"

Marc

from [ Marc Abrams (991119.1800) ]

An archive that should shed some light for the folks out there who no little
of the RTP program. The program has undergone several changes since this ost
and I am not sure what if any particulairs might be different. But I do
believe but I do think Ed's post stays in the current spirit of the
program. Tim C if I am wrong
please correct any errors. Thanks.

Marc

from Ed Ford (921114:1115) (from Bill Powers 921113.1000)

...we received your cards on Teaching Responsible Thinking. I think
you need to take a closer look at what you're recommending, or at
least the way you put it.

First, for those who are unfamiliar with my card, here it is...

                     TEACHING RESPONSIBLE THINKING

Responsibility ? the willingness and ability of people to follow
standards and rules and ultimately to set their own, without infringing
on the rights of others.

A. ESTABLISH STRONG RELATIONSHIPS

The most important step when teaching responsible thinking involves
spending daily quality time alone with each person. (explained on
reverse side of card). People must believe two things: you care about
them and you have confidence in their ability to resolve their
problems. You will then be more effective when teaching responsible
thinking.

B. SET STANDARDS; ASK FOR CHOICES & CONSEQUENCES

You have to set specific and reasonable rules and standards that must
be consistently applied over time and enforced fairly with each person.
When they are not willing to follow standards or obey rules, ask them
to name the various choices they have and to explain the consequences
that result from making those choices. The consequences should include
the loss of the privilege which is related to the responsible choice
they refuse to make.

Loss of privileges or restrictions must be the result of their not
being willing to work at resolving their problem. Lifting restrictions
or the return of a privilege should be tied to their having made a
commitment and a specific plan to resolve their problem. Remember,
trying to control people by rewarding or punishing them doesn't teach
responsible thinking.

C. TEACH RESPONSIBLE THINKING

Ask them what they think ? keep questioning them; don't tell them what
you think; ignore excuses & don't ask why; be non?judgemental; be
specific & stay focused.

1. Exploration: Basic questions to ask are...
What is it that you want? What are the rules or standards?
What were you doing to get what you want?

2. Evaluation: Getting them to think responsibly...
Is what you're doing getting you what you want?
Is what you're doing against the rules?

3. Commitment: Getting them to choose responsibility...
Are you willing to work at resolving your problems?

4. Teach them how to create a plan
a. establish specific area of needed improvement
   (keep plan small to assure success)
b. set a measurable goal for needed feedback
c. have them think through then explain in detail how they're going to
   achieve their measurable goal
d. set up a chart which shows progress in time increments (hourly,
   daily, or weekly, etc.)

                   picture of a chart

It seems to me that when two or more living control systems find themselves
in the same environment, in order for them to live in harmony and
cooperatively, they have to agree on a way things ought to be, a system of
concepts, which are best expressed and set forth by agreeing to a set of
standards upon which they base their choices as they attempt to find
satisfaction while living together. (I see standards as synonymous with
rules, criteria, principles, guidelines, etc.) Thus the needed harmony
between levels of the hierarchy in social groups. As they lives their
lives, trying to satisfy their own individual goals, the choices they make,
if based on agreed to standards, will more than likely make it easier for
them to live in harmony with each other.

In the order of nature, we first learn to follow standards as children at
home and then, ultimately, to set our own. For us to live in harmony, we
must always set rules while respecting the rights of others. Whether at
home, at school, at work, in an institutional setting, or just buying
gasoline, we are constantly surrounded by standards and rules. Thus the
need to learn to follow standards as well as to set our own standards while
resolving our internal conflicts.

Any time I deal with anyone, whether in private practice or elsewhere,
standards and rules are a part of life. Whether it is setting standards for
the kind of spouse we want (thus to help us make a choice), or wanting to
get along with a parent, or getting through school, or interacting properly
on the CSGnet by how to sign on, etc., standards are a part of life.
HOWEVER, IN ORDER TO HELP LIVING CONTROL SYSTEMS RESOLVE THEIR OWN INTERNAL
CONFLICTS AND TO TEACH THEM HOW TO DEAL WITH THEIR LIVES, THERE HAS TO BE A
BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF STANDARDS AND RULES AND OF HOW CONSEQUENCES AND
CHOICES ARE INTEGRATED INTO THE STANDARDS CONCEPT ALREADY ESTABLISHED IN THE
SETTING WHERE THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT. That is why I set forth a general
understanding and the need for setting standards as well as establishing a
model for where and how choices and consequences are integrated into the
standard concept prior to explaining the style and techniques for teaching
responsible thinking (in Section C) to anyone, any where, whether at home,
at school, or where ever.

I think, Bill, you confused what I was saying in Section B as a way to work
with others. I was merely setting forth the essential elements that go into
helping people learn to discipline themselves and deal with the rules in
environments where they find themselves or help those who have to establish
rules and standards in a setting and how all the concepts interrelate. The
approach I use when dealing with others, as set forth in the role plays and
explanations in Chapters Nine and Ten in Freedom From Stress has not been
abandoned. The attempt to teach responsible thinking through asking
questions is written out in Section C. What I was explaining in Section B
was the process, the standards to be considered and incorporated when
teaching others how to obey rules or helping them learn how to function
effectively in an environment where rules exist.

I use this card when teaching parents or when teach in residential treatment
centers or schools or in businesses. The essential elements explained in
Section B are the same. The style outlined in Section C, as you rightly
recognized, is very different, depending on the person and the situation. I
use the ideas for setting standards in Section B with my grandchildren as I
do with juveniles in a detention center. But the style for working with
people outlined in Section C can be very, very different.

Maybe you should think about approaching people in institutions as you
would people outside them. Teach them how to use PCT in the real
world they'll be going back to, not the artificial and cramped world
they're in at the moment.

As you can see from the above, I do, always have and always will.

Finally, my experience over the years has taught me that there are
tremendous differences in the understanding of the role of standards, the
meaning and place of consequences and choices. I was trying to establish as
clear an explanation as I could of the whole concept. I trust my card makes
a little more sense.

Ed Ford

···

Date: Sat Nov 14, 1992 10:26 am PST
Subject: setting standards