some thoughts

[philip 2018.03.20]

I feel as though discussion of PCT have degenerated quite a bit since the definition of its pure state in 1960. I don’t think PCT is about robotics, or about defining the conditions where control is “good”, or even about the TCV. PCT is simply about the general mechanism developed in Powers 1960. I don’t think any of the research on PCT today helps develop the ideas in the 1960 paper.

A quote:

We do not need to go through the tedious process of the “test of the significant variable” to obtain every bit of information we are going to accumulate. Both the human subject and the investigator are presumably similar creatures, and the investigator can often find short-cuts by an introspective analysis of his own perceptual methods. The investigator can hope to discover those variables which in his experience are “self-evident” classes, that is, which to his knowledge and belief are the forms in which he must perceive and has has always perceived his universe. The results of this introspection, in the form of classes of variables which should be significant to other human control systems, can also be subjected to the test of the significant variable. (Powers 1960, part 1)

In his paper, Powers says that work needs to be done in discovering the “classes” of perceptual variables (i.e. the sequences of static configurations) which are controlled in general.

What class of perceptual variables is controlled in drawing the ellipse? Here it is: We need
two foci, so the pen goes past the first focus and stops. Then it goes around the focus, past the second focus, and stops again. Then it goes back to where it started and stops a third time. This is a three term sequence of static first order configurations.

As Adam pointed out, nobody is controlling the curvature or velocity. If there is some relationship between the curvature and velocity of drawing, then it has nothing to do with PCT, because these variables are not controlled as a class of precepts. There is no behavioral illusion. The only illusion Powers mentions in his 1960 paper are the illusions inherent in the geometry of perception.

None of the questions in the original paper are topics of research in PCT today. Instead, I see people reinventing the robot, adding 6 new, redundant classes of perception, repeatedly doing experiments where the LOV is the significant variable, etc. I get it, the spinal cord doesn’t have an axon which represents “F = ma”. That doesn’t mean you can say robots are not built properly.

I don’t know everything about what you have been researching for 60 years, but nothing I have read is better than the original 1960 paper. Maybe you should just get people to read the 1960 paper instead of writing all these new books.

PCT is a theory of abstraction. It’s focus is on discovering the transforms which occur between orders of perception. It’s focus is not on discovering the mechanisms of motor control. Powers published his 1960 paper in the journal Perceptual and Motor Skills! For heaven’s sake, he already said in the paper everything one needs to know about motor skills. He says the proprioceptive feedback-connections in the first-order spinal loops divide before going to the central systems. That’s the first order. But you can’t just start talking about controlling a perception of scientific honesty when all you can do so far is draw an ellipse using a sequence of first order perceptions.

And I now I have a question for whoever read my thoughts:

How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3?

In his paper, Powers says that work needs to be done in discovering the “classes” of perceptual variables (i.e. the sequences of static configurations) which are controlled in general.

How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3?

···

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 12:27 AM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

[philip 2018.03.20]

I feel as though discussion of PCT have degenerated quite a bit since the definition of its pure state in 1960. I don’t think PCT is about robotics, or about defining the conditions where control is “good”, or even about the TCV. PCT is simply about the general mechanism developed in Powers 1960. I don’t think any of the research on PCT today helps develop the ideas in the 1960 paper.

A quote:

We do not need to go through the tedious process of the “test of the significant variable” to obtain every bit of information we are going to accumulate. Both the human subject and the investigator are presumably similar creatures, and the investigator can often find short-cuts by an introspective analysis of his own perceptual methods. The investigator can hope to discover those variables which in his experience are “self-evident” classes, that is, which to his knowledge and belief are the forms in which he must perceive and has has always perceived his universe. The results of this introspection, in the form of classes of variables which should be significant to other human control systems, can also be subjected to the test of the significant variable. (Powers 1960, part 1)

In his paper, Powers says that work needs to be done in discovering the “classes” of perceptual variables (i.e. the sequences of static configurations) which are controlled in general.

What class of perceptual variables is controlled in drawing the ellipse? Here it is: We need
two foci, so the pen goes past the first focus and stops. Then it goes around the focus, past the second focus, and stops again. Then it goes back to where it started and stops a third time. This is a three term sequence of static first order configurations.

As Adam pointed out, nobody is controlling the curvature or velocity. If there is some relationship between the curvature and velocity of drawing, then it has nothing to do with PCT, because these variables are not controlled as a class of precepts. There is no behavioral illusion. The only illusion Powers mentions in his 1960 paper are the illusions inherent in the geometry of perception.

None of the questions in the original paper are topics of research in PCT today. Instead, I see people reinventing the robot, adding 6 new, redundant classes of perception, repeatedly doing experiments where the LOV is the significant variable, etc. I get it, the spinal cord doesn’t have an axon which represents “F = ma”. That doesn’t mean you can say robots are not built properly.

I don’t know everything about what you have been researching for 60 years, but nothing I have read is better than the original 1960 paper. Maybe you should just get people to read the 1960 paper instead of writing all these new books.

PCT is a theory of abstraction. It’s focus is on discovering the transforms which occur between orders of perception. It’s focus is not on discovering the mechanisms of motor control. Powers published his 1960 paper in the journal Perceptual and Motor Skills! For heaven’s sake, he already said in the paper everything one needs to know about motor skills. He says the proprioceptive feedback-connections in the first-order spinal loops divide before going to the central systems. That’s the first order. But you can’t just start talking about controlling a perception of scientific honesty when all you can do so far is draw an ellipse using a sequence of first order perceptions.

And I now I have a question for whoever read my thoughts:

How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3?

[Bruce Nevin 2018-03-21_13:19:12 UTC]

philip 2018.03.20 –

In the quoted passage, Bill is talking about determining what the orders of perception are, and their hierarchical organization relative to one another. This is clear when we restore the missing context at the beginning of that paragraph:

If a human being is indeed this sort of functional being, we can find out more about what is going on inside him if we can learn to understand the various classes of perceptual variable which are involved in his feedback control systems. The method of disturbing and testing, which we call the “test of the significant variable,” is one method, and it is wholly scientific in its procedures, but fortunately we need not go through this tedious process to obtain every bit of information we are going to accumulate.

We certainly cannot omit the test for the controlled variable (as it has been called subsequent to 1957 and 1960) when we work to understand something like the drawing of elliptical curves.

You identify the “class of perceptual variables … controlled in drawing the ellipse” as follows:

PJY: We need two foci, so the pen goes past the first focus and stops. Then it goes around the focus, past the second focus, and stops again. Then it goes back to where it started and stops a third time. This is a three term sequence of static first order configurations.

You seem very certain of this. By what tests did you confirm that your hypothesis is correct?

PJY: How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3?

The Environment function E is in the environment in 1960. Bill and his co-authors used some terminology differently from how we use it now. Compare with B:CP. What they termed the feedback signal is in B:CP the perceptual signal, and what they termed the feedback function is in B:CP the perceptual input function.

···

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 12:27 AM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

[philip 2018.03.20]

I feel as though discussion of PCT have degenerated quite a bit since the definition of its pure state in 1960. I don’t think PCT is about robotics, or about defining the conditions where control is “good”, or even about the TCV. PCT is simply about the general mechanism developed in Powers 1960. I don’t think any of the research on PCT today helps develop the ideas in the 1960 paper.

A quote:

We do not need to go through the tedious process of the “test of the significant variable” to obtain every bit of information we are going to accumulate. Both the human subject and the investigator are presumably similar creatures, and the investigator can often find short-cuts by an introspective analysis of his own perceptual methods. The investigator can hope to discover those variables which in his experience are “self-evident” classes, that is, which to his knowledge and belief are the forms in which he must perceive and has has always perceived his universe. The results of this introspection, in the form of classes of variables which should be significant to other human control systems, can also be subjected to the test of the significant variable. (Powers 1960, part 1)

In his paper, Powers says that work needs to be done in discovering the “classes” of perceptual variables (i.e. the sequences of static configurations) which are controlled in general.

What class of perceptual variables is controlled in drawing the ellipse? Here it is: We need
two foci, so the pen goes past the first focus and stops. Then it goes around the focus, past the second focus, and stops again. Then it goes back to where it started and stops a third time. This is a three term sequence of static first order configurations.

As Adam pointed out, nobody is controlling the curvature or velocity. If there is some relationship between the curvature and velocity of drawing, then it has nothing to do with PCT, because these variables are not controlled as a class of precepts. There is no behavioral illusion. The only illusion Powers mentions in his 1960 paper are the illusions inherent in the geometry of perception.

None of the questions in the original paper are topics of research in PCT today. Instead, I see people reinventing the robot, adding 6 new, redundant classes of perception, repeatedly doing experiments where the LOV is the significant variable, etc. I get it, the spinal cord doesn’t have an axon which represents “F = ma”. That doesn’t mean you can say robots are not built properly.

I don’t know everything about what you have been researching for 60 years, but nothing I have read is better than the original 1960 paper. Maybe you should just get people to read the 1960 paper instead of writing all these new books.

PCT is a theory of abstraction. It’s focus is on discovering the transforms which occur between orders of perception. It’s focus is not on discovering the mechanisms of motor control. Powers published his 1960 paper in the journal Perceptual and Motor Skills! For heaven’s sake, he already said in the paper everything one needs to know about motor skills. He says the proprioceptive feedback-connections in the first-order spinal loops divide before going to the central systems. That’s the first order. But you can’t just start talking about controlling a perception of scientific honesty when all you can do so far is draw an ellipse using a sequence of first order perceptions.

And I now I have a question for whoever read my thoughts:

How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3?

[Rick Marken 2018-03-21_09:01:31]

···

[Bruce Nevin 2018-03-21_13:19:12 UTC] replying to philip 2018.03.20 –

BN: In the quoted passage, Bill is talking about determining what the orders of perception are, and their hierarchical organization relative to one another. This is clear when we restore the missing context at the beginning of that paragraph:…

RM: Excellent post Bruce! Thanks you!

BestÂ

Rick

If a human being is indeed this sort of functional being, we can find out more about what is going on inside him if we can learn to understand the various classes of perceptual variable which are involved in his feedback control systems. The method of disturbing and testing, which we call the “test of the significant variable,” is one method, and it is wholly scientific in its procedures, but fortunately we need not go through this tedious process to obtain every bit of information we are going to accumulate.Â

We certainly cannot omit the test for the controlled variable (as it has been called subsequent to 1957 and 1960) when we work to understand something like the drawing of elliptical curves.

You identify the “class of perceptual variables … controlled in drawing the ellipse” as follows:Â

PJY: We need  two foci, so the pen goes past the first focus and stops. Then it goes around the focus, past the second focus, and stops again. Then it goes back to where it started and stops a third time. This is a three term sequence of static first order configurations.

You seem very certain of this. By what tests did you confirm that your hypothesis is correct?

PJY: How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3?Â

The Environment function E is in the environment in 1960. Bill and his co-authors used some terminology differently from how we use it now. Compare with B:CP. What they termed the feedback signal is in B:CP the perceptual signal, and what they termed the feedback function is in B:CP the perceptual input function.

/Bruce

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 12:27 AM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

[philip 2018.03.20]

I feel as though discussion of PCT have degenerated quite a bit since the definition of its pure state in 1960. I don’t think PCT is about robotics, or about defining the conditions where control is “good”, or even about the TCV. PCT is simply about the general mechanism developed in Powers 1960. I don’t think any of the research on PCT today helps develop the ideas in the 1960 paper.Â

A quote:

We do not need to go through the tedious process of the “test of the significant variable” to obtain every bit of information we are going to accumulate. Both the human subject and the investigator are presumably similar creatures, and the investigator can often find short-cuts by an introspective analysis of his own perceptual methods. The investigator can hope to discover those variables which in his experience are “self-evident” classes, that is, which to his knowledge and belief are the forms in which he must perceive and has has always perceived his universe. The results of this introspection, in the form of classes of variables which should be significant to other human control systems, can also be subjected to the test of the significant variable. (Powers 1960, part 1)

In his paper, Powers says that work needs to be done in discovering the “classes” of perceptual variables (i.e. the sequences of static configurations) which are controlled in general. Â

What class of perceptual variables is controlled in drawing the ellipse? Here it is: We needÂ
two foci, so the pen goes past the first focus and stops. Then it goes around the focus, past the second focus, and stops again. Then it goes back to where it started and stops a third time. This is a three term sequence of static first order configurations.

 As Adam pointed out, nobody is controlling the curvature or velocity. If there is some relationship between the curvature and velocity of drawing, then it has nothing to do with PCT, because these variables are not controlled as a class of precepts. There is no behavioral illusion. The only illusion Powers mentions in his 1960 paper are the illusions inherent in the geometry of perception.Â

None of the questions in the original paper are topics of research in PCT today. Instead, I see people reinventing the robot, adding 6 new, redundant classes of perception, repeatedly doing experiments where the LOV is the significant variable, etc. I get it, the spinal cord doesn’t have an axon which represents “F = ma”. That doesn’t mean you can say robots are not built properly.Â

I don’t know everything about what you have been researching for 60 years, but nothing I have read is better than the original 1960 paper. Maybe you should just get people to read the 1960 paper instead of writing all these new books.

PCT is a theory of abstraction. It’s focus is on discovering the transforms which occur between orders of perception. It’s focus is not on discovering the mechanisms of motor control. Powers published his 1960 paper in the journal Perceptual and Motor Skills! For heaven’s sake, he already said in the paper everything one needs to know about motor skills. He says the proprioceptive feedback-connections in the first-order spinal loops divide before going to the central systems. That’s the first order. But you can’t just start talking about controlling a perception of scientific honesty when all you can do so far is draw an ellipse using a sequence of first order perceptions.Â

And I now I have a question for whoever read my thoughts:Â

How is it that the feedback function went from being at the input-output boundary in 1960 to being totally in the environment in LCS3? Â

Â

Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[From: Bruce Nevin (Tue 930427 12:32:06)]

A while back (it has been a while) as I was going over something that I
was preparing to send to CSG-L, I made the following correction:

  controlling for the perception of X
  ==> controlling the perception of X

Since then, I have noticed this locution a number of times, even
in something that Bill wrote.

The reason I thought of it as an error and corrected it is
because it seems to say "controlling actions for the perception
of X," when what we want to say is that perception and not action
is what is controlled.

Granted, it could mean "controlling perception p for (i.e.
w.r.t.) reference r", but unless it says just that, explicitly,
it invites misinterpretation by those who assume that it is
behavioral outputs that are controlled.

···

-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-

[Dag Forssell (930424 10.30) ] --

I suppose ignorance is rooted in lack of experience on which to
base references. So ignorance may arise in two ways, as you say:
inexperience (naivete), and ignoring. Demagogues cultivate both,
and exploit them in different ways. Withholding information
cultivates the first type in an obvious way. Putting a "spin" on
information cultivates the second type in a less obvious way,
encouraging the mark to ignore some perceptions and imagine
others in support of a higher-level reference. This appears to
work best with people who perceive a strong need to know where
they stand with respect to an external authority such as
scripture. Then, with knowledge of reference perceptions
respecting that external authority, an unscrupulous person can
manipulate such persons so that they serve his or her ends. For
example, David Koresh exploited higher-level references in his
intended converts, references that were expectable given their known
fundamentalist or 7th-Day Adventist commitments. After a
20-minute telephone conversation with Koresh, said the brother of
one victim, he had felt all his Christian upbringing turned
upside down and inside out and hadn't known where he stood.

Seems to me the marks control a perception of themselves being
right (correct) according to an external standard, and that makes
them vulnerable to manipulation w.r.t. that standard; but the
manipulators control a perception of being perceived as right,
correct, embodying in themselves the external standard to which
others owe fealty.

-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-

I would like to build an analog device that picks up sound
(atmospheric compression waves) coming from a direction D,
provides it as perceptual input to a comparator with reference 0
(zero), and outputs cancelling compression waves from an effector
(speaker) positioned just ahead of the perceptual input device
(directional microphone). The problem is that one must amplify
the very small audio signal from the microphone in order to drive
the speaker. However, as I understand it, reversing the sign in
a conventional audio amplifier is difficult because sine waves at
different frequencies (partials) would arrive at different
phases. Any ideas?

        Bruce
        bn@bbn.com