[spam] Re: Perseptions we don't control

CSGnet Archive CSG2007
1

[From Bjorn
Simonsen (2007.26.01,13:10 EUST)]

[Martin Taylor
2007.01.25.17.15]

It doesn’t
matter how the feedback value that adds to the

disturbance value gets to be what it is. If it comes from

a system with memory (as almost all physical systems do),

so be it. At THIS nanosecond, it has THAT value.

Your first
sentence is OK. Your second sentence is also OK if I look at your World Model
that I understand is a function that is able to change the Output signal. (Now
I am back to your World Model. To morrow I will express my comprehension of it
so far).

If I go to
Bill’s Imagination mode, I don’t find the same function (memory sends a
perceptual signal back up toward the source of the address signal). Both in the
World Model and in Bill’s Imagination mode the signal that goes to Perceptual
Input or to the source of the address signal is dependent on the Output signal.

Incidentally,
what is an “insert signal”? You have used the

term more than once. What is the source of this signal and

where is it inserted? The two “insert signals” I understand

are the reference signal and the disturbance signal (though

Tom Bourbon did experiment with another, that controlled

the output gain). Do you mean either or both of these?

I put the
concept “insert signal” in quotation marks as a substitute for the Output
quantity in the environment. I treated the negative feedback loop as a composite
system and there memory is left out.

You are
still mixing up implementation details with functional analysis.

Think
function, not mechanism, unless the mechanism

necessarily affects the function in some way important to you.

I will listen
to that. I don’t hope I bypass your advise later.

bjorn

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2

Re: Perseptions we don’t
control
[Martin Taylor 2007.01.26.11.33]

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2007.26.01,13:10
EUST)]
[Martin Taylor 2007.01.25.17.15]

It doesn’t matter how the feedback value that adds
to the

disturbance value gets to be what it is. If it comes from

a system with memory (as almost all physical systems do),

so be it. At THIS nanosecond, it has THAT
value.

Your first sentence is OK. Your second sentence is
also OK if I look at your World Model that I understand is a function
that is able to change the Output signal.

I don’t know what diagram you are looking at that includes the
World Model, but I’ve never had one that affects the output
signal.

(Now I am back to your World Model. To morrow I
will express my comprehension of it so far).
If I go to Bill’s Imagination mode, I don’t find
the same function (memory sends a perceptual signal back up toward the
source of the address signal). Both in the World Model and in Bill’s
Imagination mode the signal that goes to Perceptual Input or to the
source of the address signal is dependent on the Output
signal.

My World Model is intended to model the way the output signal
would influence the perceptual signal if the output signal were to be
sent to the environment. It is imagination in action. In the
environment, the output signal affects potentially many things, the
net result of which is a whole series of time-delayed influences on
the perceptual signal. For example, if I am controlling to see my wife
happy, and I perceive her to ask me to go out and buy some milk, my
World Model may produce a signal for the imagined case in which I say
“No”, and that signal would correspond to a perception of my
wife being less happy. The same World Model fed with an output
function value corresponding to my saying “OK” would produce
a signal corresponding to a perception of her being happier. In the
“real” world, then, I go out and buy milk, if there isn’t
too great a conflict between doing that and doing something else that
would be impossible if I were to go out.

The
question of how the Workd Model signal combines with or substitutes
for the perceptual signal based on data from the environment remains
open in my mind. I think something like the World Model has to exist,
but its form might well be different at different levels of control.
It might, perhaps, exist only at the higher levels. Whatever its form,
though, I never considered it to be “able to change the output
signal”.

Martin