(Gavin Ritz 2011 July 20,
6pm, NZT)
If audible speech is a
controlled variable, what is silent speech? That internal speech (and internal communication)
which we have with our self.
Regards
Gavin
[From Lloyd Klinedinst (2011.07.20.0225 CDT)]
My understanding is that behavior is the control of perception. This would include ALL verbal behavior.
Controlled variables could figure into all discussions of such behaviors. For example, the verbal rehearsals and various drafts of what I am keying into this message have all been Ps being compared with the dynamic RSs among which Ps I have chosen those Ps/CVs which appear in this email message .
In the context of my entire behavior during this message composition the actual messaging behavior occurs in the context of an internal dialog about whether or not to post this message and is further nested into a complex web of my behavior in the world of CSGnet. The verbal behavior part of it is just the tip of the iceberg or just one feature of the ‘face’ of Lloyd replying to one of your messages in the arena of CSGnet. And so on…
Internal communication (speech) would also fall into the category of communication behavior but extend beyond the domain of verbal behavior
to include paralinguistic behavior and more. It would be interesting to identify the Venn overlap among the three theories of PCT, communication and information.
Lloyd
···
On Jul 20, 2011, at 1:03 AM, Gavin Ritz wrote:
(Gavin Ritz 2011 July 20, 6pm, NZT)
If audible speech is a controlled variable, what is silent speech? That internal speech (and internal communication) which we have with our self.
Regards
Gavin
Lloyd Klinedinst - lloydk@klinedinst.com
10 Dover Lane - Villa Ridge, MO 63089-2001
Home: (636) 451-3232 FAX: (636)451-3232 Mobile: (314)-609-5571
[From Rick Marken (2011.07.20.0730)]
Gavin Ritz (2011 July 20,
6pm, NZT)–
If audible speech is a
controlled variable, what is silent speech? That internal speech (and internal communication)
which we have with our self.
Control of imagination. See the “Memory” chapter in B:CP.
Rick
[From Fred Nickols (2011.07.20.0852 MDT)]
Hmm. If by “silent speech” you mean what many refer to as “sub-vocal speech” why would that be “imagined.” Lots of people move their tongues etc when talking to themselves and some even move their lips. How is that “imaginary”?
Fred Nickols
[From Rick Marken (2011.07.20.0730)]
Gavin Ritz (2011 July 20, 6pm, NZT)–
If audible speech is a controlled variable, what is silent speech? That internal speech (and internal communication) which we have with our self.
Control of imagination. See the “Memory” chapter in B:CP.
Rick
···
–
[From Bill Powers (2011l07.20.0904 MDT)]
Fred Nickols (2011.07.20.0852 MDT) --
FN: Hmm. If by "silent speech" you mean what many refer to as "sub-vocal speech" why would that be "imagined." Lots of people move their tongues etc when talking to themselves and some even move their lips. How is that "imaginary"?
BP: I doubt that you could figure out what the words are just from feeling or imagining the movements of tongue and lips. You imagine the sounds, more likely.
Imagined perceptions are perfectly real; they're caused by routing reference signals back into the perceptual inputs as if the lower systems had done what is necessary to produce the matching perceptions. At least that's the PCT story. There will be a slight delay while we wait for neurologists to verify that.
Best,
Bill P.
Chad Green (2011.07.20.1750 EDT)
Fred, perhaps this article will shed some light on your question.
Representing Part-Whole Relationships in Recurrent Neural Networks
http://web.mit.edu/viren/www/pdf/JainZhigulinSeung05.pdf
The authors call the phenomenon "completion" or the imagining of parts not present in stimuli that are consistent with a recognized whole.
Best,
Chad
Chad Green, PMP
Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1633
Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET> 7/20/2011 11:08 AM >>>
[From Bill Powers (2011l07.20.0904 MDT)]
Fred Nickols (2011.07.20.0852 MDT) --
FN: Hmm. If by "silent speech" you mean what many refer to as
"sub-vocal speech" why would that be "imagined." Lots of people
move their tongues etc when talking to themselves and some even move
their lips. How is that "imaginary"?
BP: I doubt that you could figure out what the words are just from
feeling or imagining the movements of tongue and lips. You imagine
the sounds, more likely.
Imagined perceptions are perfectly real; they're caused by routing
reference signals back into the perceptual inputs as if the lower
systems had done what is necessary to produce the matching
perceptions. At least that's the PCT story. There will be a slight
delay while we wait for neurologists to verify that.
Best,
Bill P.
[From Rick Marken (2011.07.20.1730)]
Chad Green (2011.07.20.1750 EDT)–
Fred, perhaps this article will shed some light on your question.
Representing Part-Whole Relationships in Recurrent Neural Networks
http://web.mit.edu/viren/www/pdf/JainZhigulinSeung05.pdf
The authors call the phenomenon “completion” or the imagining of parts not present in stimuli that are consistent with a recognized whole.
I just glanced over it but, I agree, it does look like it could be a plausible implementation of the “imagination connection”. The “top down” connections would be the references specifying the intended perception (“whole”) with the “part” completed by “imagination”.
Best
Rick
···
–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com
(Gavin Ritz 2011.07.22. 15.38NZT)
[From
Rick Marken (2011.07.20.0730)]
Gavin Ritz (2011 July 20, 6pm, NZT)–
If audible speech is a controlled variable, what is silent speech?
That internal speech (and internal communication) which we have with our self.
Control of imagination. See the “Memory” chapter in B:CP.
I had a look not sure I’m clear on
this, so what is the controlled variable then, for silent speech.
Regards
Gavin
···
(Gavin Ritz 2011.02.22.16.00NZt)
[From Bill Powers
(2011l07.20.0904 MDT)]
Fred Nickols (2011.07.20.0852 MDT) –
FN: Hmm. If by “silent speech” you
mean what many refer to as
“sub-vocal speech” why would that be
“imagined.” Lots of people
move their tongues etc when talking to themselves
and some even move
their lips. How is that
“imaginary”?
BP: I doubt that you could figure out what the words
are just from
feeling or imagining the movements of tongue and lips.
You imagine
the sounds, more likely.
Imagined perceptions are perfectly real; they’re
caused by routing
reference signals back into the perceptual inputs as
if the lower
systems had done what is necessary to produce the
matching
perceptions. At least that’s the PCT story. There will
be a slight
delay while we wait for neurologists to verify that.
Okay so in other words you
are saying there is no controlled variable then? OR
The controlled variable is
possibly in the past??? Or future. Imagined controlled variable.
I’m a bit lost
here.
Regards
Gavin
···
(Gavin Ritz 2011.07.22.16.08NZt)
[From Lloyd Klinedinst
(2011.07.20.0225 CDT)]
Internal communication
(speech) would also fall into the category of communication behavior but extend
beyond the domain of verbal behavior
to include
paralinguistic behavior and more. It would be interesting to identify the Venn
overlap among the three theories of PCT, communication and information.
Lloyd explain to me what you mean by information. I’m writing a paper
that shows biological information actually doesn’t exist. In PCT there is
no place for information theory.
Regards
Gavin
(Gavin Ritz 2011 July 20, 6pm, NZT)
If audible speech is a controlled variable, what is silent speech?
That internal speech (and internal communication) which we have with our self.
Regards
Gavin
Lloyd Klinedinst - lloydk@klinedinst.com
10 Dover Lane - Villa Ridge, MO 63089-2001
Home: (636)
451-3232 FAX: (636)451-3232 Mobile: (314)-609-5571
···
[From Rick Marken (2011.07.21.2120)]
Gavin Ritz (2011.02.22.16.00NZt)–
Bill Powers
(2011l07.20.0904 MDT)–
BP: Imagined perceptions are perfectly real; they’re
caused by routing reference signals back into the perceptual inputs as
if the lower systems had done what is necessary to produce the
matching perceptions. At least that’s the PCT story. There will
be a slight delay while we wait for neurologists to verify that.
RM: Okay so in other words you
are saying there is no controlled variable then?
No, he said that controlled imagined variables (imagined perceptions) are caused by reference signals routed back into the perceptual inputs.
OR
The controlled variable is
possibly in the past??? Or future. Imagined controlled variable
Im a bit lost
here.
My guess is that you are lost because you think of controlled variables as physical variables in the environment. I think it would help if you understood that they are perceptions based on the sensory effects of physical variables in the environment.
Rick
···
–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com
(Gavin Ritz 2011.07.22.16.31NZT)
[From Rick Marken
(2011.07.21.2120)]
Gavin Ritz
(2011.02.22.16.00NZt)–
Bill Powers (2011l07.20.0904 MDT)–
BP: Imagined perceptions are
perfectly real; they’re caused by routing reference signals back into the
perceptual inputs as if the lower systems had done what is necessary to produce
the matching perceptions. At least that’s the PCT story. There will be a slight
delay while we wait for neurologists to verify that.
RM: Okay so in
other words you are saying there is no controlled variable then?
No,
he said that controlled imagined variables (imagined perceptions) are caused by
reference signals routed back into the perceptual inputs.
OR
The controlled
variable is possibly in the past??? Or future. Imagined controlled variable
I’m
a bit lost here.
My guess is that you are
lost because you think of controlled variables as physical variables in the
environment.
They are perceptions in the environment right???
So where is the controlled variable then?
I think it would help if
you understood that they are perceptions based on the sensory effects of
physical variables in the environment.
Say what. Put this another way, please. Please
do a drawing of silent speech.
Regards
Gavin
···
[From Rick Marken (2011.07.21.2150)]
Gavin Ritz (2011.07.22.16.31NZT)
Rick Marken
(2011.07.21.2120)–
RM: My guess is that you are
lost because you think of controlled variables as physical variables in the
environment.
GR: They are perceptions in the environment right???
Wrong.
GR: So where is the controlled variable then?
It is defined by the perceptual input function. It’s a neural net in the nervous system. Controlled variables exist only as neural signals.
I think it would help if
you understood that they are perceptions based on the sensory effects of
physical variables in the environment.
Say what. Put this another way, please.
p = f(e.i)
where p is a controlled perceptions, f() is a perceptual input function and e.i is a set of environmental variables.
Please
do a drawing of silent speech.
See the imagination connection in the Memory Chapter of B:CP.
Rick