Spinal Reflexes

[From Rick Marken (2001.10.29.1810)]

Bill Powers (2001.10.26.0335 MDT)

Also I found that the way the real systems appear to
be organized (like the spinal reflexes) reveals some
very interesting ways of collapsing different levels
so they can be implemented very efficiently (the stretch,
stretch velocity, and tendon control systems, for example,
all use the same comparator (called a spinal motor neuron).
Very clever.

Kenny Kitzke (2001.10.26) --

Indeed. Clever and amazing.

I was going to ask Bill to explain this in more detail. But since you seem to
understand it I think it would be great if you could explain it to me. I'm
not sure I understand how the the stretch, stretch velocity, and tendon
control systems all use the same comparator. What is the perception that's
being controlled? How does the "collapsing" work?

Thanks

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Rick Marken (2001.10.31.1530)]

Bill Powers (2001.10.26.0335 MDT)

Also I found that the way the real systems appear to
be organized (like the spinal reflexes) reveals some
very interesting ways of collapsing different levels
so they can be implemented very efficiently (the stretch,
stretch velocity, and tendon control systems, for example,
all use the same comparator (called a spinal motor neuron).
Very clever.

Kenny Kitzke (2001.10.26) --

Indeed. Clever and amazing.

Me:

I was going to ask Bill to explain this in more detail. But
since you seem to understand it I think it would be great
if you could explain it to me. I'm not sure I understand how
the the stretch, stretch velocity, and tendon control systems
all use the same comparator. What is the perception that's
being controlled? How does the "collapsing" work?

I guess Kenny is away from the Net. So could you explain this please,
Bill? It sounds very interesting to me.

Thanks

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.1)]

<Rick Marken (2001.10.31.1530)>

Rick to Kenny:

I was going to ask Bill to explain this in more detail. But
since you seem to understand it I think it would be great
if you could explain it to me. I'm not sure I understand how
the the stretch, stretch velocity, and tendon control systems
all use the same comparator. What is the perception that's
being controlled? How does the "collapsing" work?

Kenny responding to Bill:

Indeed. Clever and amazing.

<I guess Kenny is away from the Net. So could you explain this please,
Bill? It sounds very interesting to me.>

I was away for over two weeks and then busy trying to catch up from being
away. :sunglasses: Meanwhile some 900 E-mails have accumulated unread. I have
started scanning them and answering some. BTW, for all those who wrote to me
privately about the Twelfth Level, I do plan on answering privately by the
weekend.

But, my comment above, Rick, was only in a general context of agreeing with
the clever and amazing workings of a human being. Complexity almost beyond
imagination. Science has revealed much of this complexity in our life times,
often providing better understandings of how we live and behave and differ
from other living things. But, still our understanding is incomplete. That
is one reason I feel the description of human nature as seen through HPCT and
reorganization is at least incomplete if not in error. Hopefully, more
research will fill in the picture painted by Bill.

I have no special understanding of spinal reflexes and I suppose there are
understandings beyond what Bill has already investigated which amazed him
should you want to study this yourself. It certainly seems relevant to PCT.

After a recent trip by Patsy to a chiropractor, she came home with an amazing
chart of the human nervous system. It claims "the nervous system _controls_
the healthy function of virtually every cell, tissue, organ and system of
your body." It specifically shows the major/basic plexuses of the spinal
column of a human which serve as "junction boxes" to collect and distribute
nerve impulses from the central nervous system. This sounds similar to the
closed control loops of PCT to me.

If you would like the references listed on the chart, I will try to read them
and send them to you. I will need a magnifying glass to do this for it is in
the smallest font I have ever seen used. I suppose an Internet expert like
yourself can find even better and possibly more current articles (the newest
reference I can read is 1988)

Respectfully,

Kenny

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.01.0730)]

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.1)--

But, my comment above, Rick, was only in a general
context of agreeing with the clever and amazing workings
of a human being.

OK. I guess I'll wait for Bill to explain it.

Thanks anyway.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.01.1330)]

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.1)

Science has revealed much of this complexity in our life times,
often providing better understandings of how we live and behave and differ
from other living things. But, still our understanding is incomplete. That
is one reason I feel the description of human nature as seen through HPCT and
reorganization is at least incomplete if not in error.

Of course our understanding is incomplete. But we know we are on the right track
because the model accounts rather well for the data we have (and does so far
better than other models, which can't really account for the data at all). It's
good to see you being skeptical of the ideas proposed by mere humans (in this
case, by Bill Powers) but your skepticism about human ideas seems to be rather
selective. You are very skeptical of the testable ideas about human nature that
were proposed by Bill Powers in the mid-1900s (as well you should be) but hardly
skeptical at all of the untestable ideas about human nature that were proposed
by Mark, Matthew, Luke and John in the first century AD. Shouldn't we be
skeptical of the ideas proposed by _all_ humans? Shouldn't we demand that all
ideas, especially those that ostensibly explain something as important as human
nature, be subjected to rigorous test and evaluation? Shouldn't we, on this
basis, have lost interest in religious explanations of human nature years ago?
Shouldn't Osama bin Laden be an impossibility by now?

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.01)]

<Rick Marken (2001.11.01.1330)>

<Of course our understanding is incomplete. But we know we are on the right
track
because the model accounts rather well for the data we have (and does so far
better than other models, which can't really account for the data at all).>

You are talking to the _saved_ concerning PCT. I am convinced about PCT, or
I would not be on this net or come to the conferences or speculate on things
that HPCT does not adequately explain in my own experience.

I am not aware there is any data about the highest level of perception or how
its references are established or changed or that there is a "reorganization"
system in humans. I do not see any reason to conclude that "controlling"
represents the [complete] nature of human beings. In fact, PCT shows that
all living things "control." Yet, I know of no one who would claim that
humans do not have innate abilities that animals do not have.

So what exactly explains the rest of human nature that is unique? I hope
some researcher like you will find some scientific evidence.

<It's good to see you being skeptical of the ideas proposed by mere humans
(in this
case, by Bill Powers) but your skepticism about human ideas seems to be rather
selective. You are very skeptical of the testable ideas about human nature
that
were proposed by Bill Powers in the mid-1900s (as well you should be) but
hardly
skeptical at all of the untestable ideas about human nature that were proposed
by Mark, Matthew, Luke and John in the first century AD.>

This is the kind of baiting and hitting below the belt using your speculative
perceptions of what others do or believe that upset people. To put the shoe
on the other foot for example purposes, some CSG folks seem to think this
propensity of yours may have driven certain accomplished PCT advocates off
this forum and from attending the conference. It neither will drive me off,
nor is it worth any further response IMHO.

<Shouldn't we be skeptical of the ideas proposed by _all_ humans? Shouldn't
we demand that all ideas, especially those that ostensibly explain something
as important as human nature, be subjected to rigorous test and evaluation?>

Sure. You mean like the tests that have been done on the reorganization
system in humans?

<Shouldn't we, on this basis, have lost interest in religious explanations of
human nature years ago? Shouldn't Osama bin Laden be an impossibility by
now?>

No and no. I have written a paper on my understanding about how PCT and the
Bible are consistent and inconsistent. But, it is just my impressions. Have
you done a similar study of both?

Respectfully,

Kenny

[From Bill Powers (2001.11.01.2300 MST)]

Rick Marken (2001.11.01.0730)]

OK. I guess I'll wait for Bill to explain it.

The three main spinal reflexes are (1) the tendon reflex, (2) the phasic
stretch reflex, and (3) the static stretch reflex.

In reverse order:

The static stretch reflex is a control system that tries to make muscle
length match a length specified by a reference signal known as the Gamma
efferent signal. The phasic stretch reflex can be seen as another control
system that tries to keep the rate of change of muscle length at zero.
Alternatively, it can be seen as adding a first-derivative component to the
static muscle length error. The tendon reflex is a control system that
tries to keep sensed muscle force (detected as strain in a tendon) matching
a reference force.

The length control system's comparator is the muscle spindle; it
mechanically measures the difference between the contraction of small
muscles in the spindle (caused by the Gamma efferent signals) and the
contraction of the main muscle. The error signal goes into the spinal motor
neuron, contributing to the net muscle force reference signal. The phasic
or rate-of-change stretch signal also goes to the spinal motor neuron. Also
entering the spinal motor neuron is the Alpha efferent signal which allows
higher centers to contribute to the net force reference level. Finally,
also entering the spinal motor neuron (with a minus sign) is the signal
from Golgi tendon receptors, which is the perceptual signal representing
muscle force. So all three systems operate via the spinal motor neuron.
Naturally we're speaking of aggregate systems here, one muscle being
activated by large numbers of spinal motor neurons.

Because both the length-error and force signals enter the spinal motor
neuron, the effect is much as if all the comparisons took place in the
motor neuron -- you can switch connections around and get an exactly
equivalent (mathematically) Virtual Comparator. If the limb is fixed
spatially so it can't move, the length and force control systems combine to
act like a single force control system. If the limb is free to move, the
systems combine to produce a single position control system. Both reference
signals, Gamma and Alpha, contribute to the net effect in either case.

It gets even more interesting. The muscle, as has now been shown by many
workers, has an exponential force-length relationship. When you oppose two
such muscles, the effective spring constant can be varied by tensing them
to varying degrees in opposition to each other. This gives higher systems
the ability to alter the spring constant and the damping in the overall
limb position control system. And I think there is some evidence that the
Gamma efferent system is the output of autonomic or cerebellar systems,
with the Alpha efferents being mainly associated with voluntary movements.

All this is accomplished by a very simple-looking arrangement. The diagram
of the systems in an early chapter of BC:P (not handy right now) is still,
evidently, valid.

This same arrangement, very nearly, is seen in the cockroach's motor
control systems, showing that the basic control systems evolved far before
human beings did. The cockroach has not changed observably in the past 600
million years, as near as we can tell from the fossil record. Of course we
can't see how much its control systems might have improved over that length
of time.

I'm sure that Kenny sees a guiding hand in all of this. But that, Rick, is
a losing battle, because the only way to win it is to abdicate the basic
principles of science and claim that you know the absolute truth. Some
people may be willing to do that, but I'm not.

Best,

Bill P.

P.S. I _will_ download your book materials, after I get my new desktop
computer up and running -- the old one went bad again and it wasn't worth
the expense to have it repaired another time.

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.02.0940)]

Bill Powers (2001.11.01.2300 MST)--

Thanks. This is a start. I don't think I'll really have my arms around it
until I see (or write) a simulation. Let me see if I'm following.

The static stretch reflex is a control system that tries to make muscle
length match a length specified by a reference signal known as the Gamma
efferent signal. The phasic stretch reflex can be seen as another control
system that tries to keep the rate of change of muscle length at zero.
Alternatively, it can be seen as adding a first-derivative component to the
static muscle length error. The tendon reflex is a control system that
tries to keep sensed muscle force (detected as strain in a tendon) matching
a reference force.

So there are three perceptions of muscle activity that are under control:
length, rate of change in length and force. Is that right?

The length control system's comparator is the muscle spindle; it
mechanically measures the difference between the contraction of small
muscles in the spindle (caused by the Gamma efferent signals) and the
contraction of the main muscle. The error signal goes into the spinal motor
neuron, contributing to the net muscle force reference signal. The phasic
or rate-of-change stretch signal also goes to the spinal motor neuron. Also
entering the spinal motor neuron is the Alpha efferent signal which allows
higher centers to contribute to the net force reference level. Finally,
also entering the spinal motor neuron (with a minus sign) is the signal
from Golgi tendon receptors, which is the perceptual signal representing
muscle force. So all three systems operate via the spinal motor neuron.
Naturally we're speaking of aggregate systems here, one muscle being
activated by large numbers of spinal motor neurons.

I think I could write a little simulation based on this description. I presume
you have already done this but I think it would be a useful exercise for me.
When I get it finished (probably in spreadsheet form) I'll submit it and see
if it's in the ball park.

Because both the length-error and force signals enter the spinal motor
neuron, the effect is much as if all the comparisons took place in the
motor neuron -- you can switch connections around and get an exactly
equivalent (mathematically) Virtual Comparator. If the limb is fixed
spatially so it can't move, the length and force control systems combine to
act like a single force control system. If the limb is free to move, the
systems combine to produce a single position control system. Both reference
signals, Gamma and Alpha, contribute to the net effect in either case.

I think I'll understand this better if I try to model it. I think I
understand, though. But I think I have to know more about how efferent
outputs affect these variables (length, rate and force). Are both the length
and force perceptions influenced by the same efferent output signal? I presume
that all the nervous system can do is send efferents to muscle spindle
cells(?) that change the length of these cells? I guess there are also cells
in the tendons (ligaments?) that affect the length and stretch sensed in
muscle cells. Is that right?

It gets even more interesting. The muscle, as has now been shown by many
workers, has an exponential force-length relationship. When you oppose two
such muscles, the effective spring constant can be varied by tensing them
to varying degrees in opposition to each other. This gives higher systems
the ability to alter the spring constant and the damping in the overall
limb position control system. And I think there is some evidence that the
Gamma efferent system is the output of autonomic or cerebellar systems,
with the Alpha efferents being mainly associated with voluntary movements.

I guess it's not obvious to me why this works because of the exponential
force-length relationship. Maybe I can figure it out if I use a simulation. I
think this "spinal reflex" control system would make a nice animated demo.
Maybe you already have one. But I think it would be nice to show how the
control exerted by the "spinal reflexes" maps to what we know about the
physiology of these reflexes.

All this is accomplished by a very simple-looking arrangement. The diagram
of the systems in an early chapter of BC:P (not handy right now) is still,
evidently, valid.

I'll take a look. I think I remember it. But I don't know if there is enough
there to serve as the basis of a simulation. But it will sure help.

I'm sure that Kenny sees a guiding hand in all of this. But that, Rick, is
a losing battle, because the only way to win it is to abdicate the basic
principles of science and claim that you know the absolute truth. Some
people may be willing to do that, but I'm not.

No battles. There just wasn't a bridge game at lunch yesterday;-)

Love

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Rick Marken (2001.11.02.1320)]

Me:

Shouldn't we be skeptical of the ideas proposed by _all_ humans? Shouldn't
we demand that all ideas, especially those that ostensibly explain something
as important as human nature, be subjected to rigorous test and evaluation?

Kenny Kitzke (2001.11.01)--

Sure. You mean like the tests that have been done on the reorganization
system in humans?

Yes. Exactly.

I have written a paper on my understanding about how PCT and the
Bible are consistent and inconsistent. But, it is just my impressions. Have
you done a similar study of both?

To some extent. I've found the Bible to be consistent with PCT inasmuch as the
Bible is a purposefully produced result of human action. The purposes achieved
(perceptual variables controlled) by those who wrote and compiled the Bible can
be gleaned, to some extent, from textual analysis. For example, it's pretty clear
that the scribes who compiled the biblical scrolls were combining texts from
several sources. One of the purposes of these compilers was to conserve, not
delete. This purpose is revealed in the many repetitions of the same stories in
the bible: the two Garden of Eden stories, the three versions of the peculiar
wife/sister story (the best known probably being the one where Abraham tried to
pass off his wife as his sister to Pharaoh). There are also repetitions woven
within the same story; such as the two endings (bird ending, non-bird ending) of
the flood story. Other purposes can be gleaned from comparison of the biblical
stories to existing archeology. For example, the archeology shows no evidence of
an imperial culture in Judea at the time of David/Solomon (c. 700 BC). The
biblical stories of the grandeur of the Davidic empire (and Solomon's temple,
etc) are almost certainly embellished tales of a legendary tribal chief named
David. Textual analysis suggests that these stories were written to justify an
existing imperial rule (that of Jereboam, I believe). We also can learn about
biblical purposes by looking at what didn't make the cut (and become part of the
canon). The Apocrypha contains "Old Testament" writing that didn't make it. But I
think that the most interesting writings are the recently (c. 1948) discovered
"Gnostic Gospel" that didn't make the "New Testament" canon. The Gnostic
gospels, written around the same time (c. 100 AD) as the canonical gospels,
present quite a different Christian theology than the one presented in the
canonical Gospels. I actually prefer the theology presented in the canonical
gospels but it's clear that the theological purpose of the writers of the
canonical gospel was quite different than that of the writers of the Gnostic
gospels.

Anyway, I do think there are some very interesting ways in which PCT could inform
our understanding of religious writings and religious behavior itself. Your
postulation of a "twelfth level" to explain religious behavior us, I think, an
example of this application of PCT.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org