Strong vill

[Martin Taylor 2010.03.27.11.40]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.26.1800)] to Bruce Gregory (2010.03.26.2006 EDT)]
  I have a strong vill;-)
   

That got me thinking: what corresponds in PCT to "a strong will"?

Is it to have high gain in most of one's active control units? Is it to be resistant to reorganization? If the latter, how can one's "resistance to reorganization" be varied? Would it be genetic, and be an intrinsic variable, or would it be learned as some kind of meta-control between the reorganizing system and the perceptual control system? There are people who say "Nothing you say can make me change my mind" and people who say "Show me the evidence and I will change my mind". Is one or the other of those attitudes the equivalent of having a strong will, and is either of them related to "resistance to reorganization?" Is "to haev a strong will" simply meaningless in PCT, and if so, what does someone probably mean when they say that they are strong-willed?

Many questions, no answers.

Martin

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.27.MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2010.03.27.11.40] --

That got me thinking: what corresponds in PCT to "a strong will"?

Is it to have high gain in most of one's active control units? Is it to be resistant to reorganization? If the latter, how can one's "resistance to reorganization" be varied?

Good questions. I'm not sure there is really any variation in the strength of will -- what's stronger or weaker are the control systems that are operated, sometimes, voluntarily. What people seem to mean by "will power" is internal conflict: you want to eat dessert, but by "sheer force of will" you manage to skip it. Unfortunately, this leave the desire for dessert in place, because what you did was to set up another control system to conflict with it, thus preventing it from acting. The moment the "will power" control system relaxes, you gobble up the dessert.

"Setting up another control system?" There are meanings there that I'm only now noticing. I'm getting more and more of a hunch that "reorganization follows awareness" isn't quite the right way to put it. It's more like "Awareness leads reorganization." I keep thinking of examples like that one, in which we voluntarily control something new, but if we turn attention to something else, that control collapses. We have to keep controlling consciously, over and over, for a long time before the new controller can be left to run by itself.

Doesn't that suggest something interesting? It sounds very much as if awareness or consciousness has the ability to set up new control systems that use existing systems, and the new system then gradually reorganizes and becomes a relatively permanent part of the hierarchy. So I get a picture of a central something that knows how to control in general, and keeps constructing new examples of control. In fact this central something builds the hierarchy, constrained only by the available materials and properties of the world.

If we could model that central something ....

Best,

Bill P.

[From Martin Lewitt (2010.1222.MDT)]

I think that "strength of will" like many words and phrases is overloaded. There are at least two meanings, one is the actual strength, intensity or persistene of effort that results in the achieving of a goal. The other would be the ability to resist impulses and urges, deferring gratification in persuit of a longer term goal. I think the latter is the more interesting issue for PCT. There is some evidence of intrinsic or genetic differences in the tendency to seek sensation rather than defer gratification. The sensation seekers, while disadvantaged in deferring gratification, don't seem disadvantaged in the area of developing physical skills and imposing their "strength of will" in sports competition for example.

Martin L

···

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.27.MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2010.03.27.11.40] --

That got me thinking: what corresponds in PCT to "a strong will"?

Is it to have high gain in most of one's active control units? Is it to be resistant to reorganization? If the latter, how can one's "resistance to reorganization" be varied?

Good questions. I'm not sure there is really any variation in the strength of will -- what's stronger or weaker are the control systems that are operated, sometimes, voluntarily. What people seem to mean by "will power" is internal conflict: you want to eat dessert, but by "sheer force of will" you manage to skip it. Unfortunately, this leave the desire for dessert in place, because what you did was to set up another control system to conflict with it, thus preventing it from acting. The moment the "will power" control system relaxes, you gobble up the dessert.

"Setting up another control system?" There are meanings there that I'm only now noticing. I'm getting more and more of a hunch that "reorganization follows awareness" isn't quite the right way to put it. It's more like "Awareness leads reorganization." I keep thinking of examples like that one, in which we voluntarily control something new, but if we turn attention to something else, that control collapses. We have to keep controlling consciously, over and over, for a long time before the new controller can be left to run by itself.

Doesn't that suggest something interesting? It sounds very much as if awareness or consciousness has the ability to set up new control systems that use existing systems, and the new system then gradually reorganizes and becomes a relatively permanent part of the hierarchy. So I get a picture of a central something that knows how to control in general, and keeps constructing new examples of control. In fact this central something builds the hierarchy, constrained only by the available materials and properties of the world.

If we could model that central something ....

Best,

Bill P.

[From Martin Lewitt (2010.1245.MDT)]

I've often wondered, in the deferral of gratification instance, is it really the "strength of will" that varies, or is it the intensity of the urges and impulses. I think the genetic evidence points to the latter.

Martin L

···

[From Martin Lewitt (2010.1222.MDT)]

I think that "strength of will" like many words and phrases is overloaded. There are at least two meanings, one is the actual strength, intensity or persistene of effort that results in the achieving of a goal. The other would be the ability to resist impulses and urges, deferring gratification in persuit of a longer term goal. I think the latter is the more interesting issue for PCT. There is some evidence of intrinsic or genetic differences in the tendency to seek sensation rather than defer gratification. The sensation seekers, while disadvantaged in deferring gratification, don't seem disadvantaged in the area of developing physical skills and imposing their "strength of will" in sports competition for example.

Martin L

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.27.MDT)]

Martin Taylor 2010.03.27.11.40] --

That got me thinking: what corresponds in PCT to "a strong will"?

Is it to have high gain in most of one's active control units? Is it to be resistant to reorganization? If the latter, how can one's "resistance to reorganization" be varied?

Good questions. I'm not sure there is really any variation in the strength of will -- what's stronger or weaker are the control systems that are operated, sometimes, voluntarily. What people seem to mean by "will power" is internal conflict: you want to eat dessert, but by "sheer force of will" you manage to skip it. Unfortunately, this leave the desire for dessert in place, because what you did was to set up another control system to conflict with it, thus preventing it from acting. The moment the "will power" control system relaxes, you gobble up the dessert.

"Setting up another control system?" There are meanings there that I'm only now noticing. I'm getting more and more of a hunch that "reorganization follows awareness" isn't quite the right way to put it. It's more like "Awareness leads reorganization." I keep thinking of examples like that one, in which we voluntarily control something new, but if we turn attention to something else, that control collapses. We have to keep controlling consciously, over and over, for a long time before the new controller can be left to run by itself.

Doesn't that suggest something interesting? It sounds very much as if awareness or consciousness has the ability to set up new control systems that use existing systems, and the new system then gradually reorganizes and becomes a relatively permanent part of the hierarchy. So I get a picture of a central something that knows how to control in general, and keeps constructing new examples of control. In fact this central something builds the hierarchy, constrained only by the available materials and properties of the world.

If we could model that central something ....

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.03.27.1745 EDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.27.MDT)]

Doesn't that suggest something interesting? It sounds very much as if awareness or consciousness has the ability to set up new control systems that use existing systems, and the new system then gradually reorganizes and becomes a relatively permanent part of the hierarchy. So I get a picture of a central something that knows how to control in general, and keeps constructing new examples of control. In fact this central something builds the hierarchy, constrained only by the available materials and properties of the world.

If we could model that central something ....

BG: Since the central something is apparently an intentional agent, can we assume that it too is a hierarchical control system? Is there yet another even more central something guiding the construction of the central something? And so on, and so on...

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.27.1638 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.03.27.1745 EDT) –

BP earlier: If we could model
that central something …

BG: Since the central something is apparently an intentional agent, can
we assume that it too is a hierarchical control system? Is there yet
another even more central something guiding the construction of the
central something? And so on, and so on…

BP: No, I don’t think this involves infinite regress. What I’m thinking
of is more like the idea of the reorganizing system, which produces new
organization, or probably better, optimizes existing organizations,
without actually knowing anything about the system it’s optimizing. The
reorganizing system simply watches the behavior of some criterion
variable, and if that variable becomes farther from the criterion value,
causes a random change of direction in the process of slowly altering
system parameters. I’d say this mysterious central something is
the reorganization algorithm, except that I think it needs some
particular kind of pre-organized raw material to start with. The only way
to find out what’s really needed is to try to make a working model of
this whatever-it-is. If we could actually make it work, we’d have the
dawn of the Azimovian age of robots.

The reorganizing system doesn’t need another reorganizing system to make
it work, so there’s no infinite regress there. It would be interesting,
though, to look into the possibility of a hierarchy of reorganizing
systems, each building on what the lower levels have
accomplished.

What I’m sort of looking for is a principle that, while very simple in
itself, could result in an organization that would continually extend
itself, leaving copies of its own basic organization wherever it acts on
the organism. We have a lot of ideas, like DNA, that look something like
this principle, but the really basic concept is still missing.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.27.1030 MDT)]

Martin Lewitt (2010.1222.MDT) --

ML: I think that "strength of will" like many words and phrases is overloaded. There are at least two meanings, one is the actual strength, intensity or persistence of effort that results in the achieving of a goal.

BP: That's one way to judge how hard the person is trying to achieve the goal. The amount of effort reflects the size of error signals amplified by the output function, so it depends on two factors: how much error there is, and how much effort the output function generates to correct a given amount of error. The latter is a way of judging how important the controlled variable is to the person; if it's only slightly important, the person might expend some effort to correct an error, but not very much. If a person seems willing to expend maximum effort just to correct what seems like a very small amount of error, we can conclude that the variable being controlled is very important to that person.

But this doesn't appear to have much to do with the concept of "will". It's just how a control system works.

ML: ... The other would be the ability to resist impulses and urges, deferring gratification in persuit of a longer term goal. I think the latter is the more interesting issue for PCT.

BP: Yes. The first question of interest is what we mean by an impulse or urge, and the next one is what we mean by "resisting" it.

A "urge" seems to be something like seeing a chocolate sundae and suddenly wanting to eat it, which looks a lot like stimulus and response. If a control system is involved, somehow it must be dormant until the chocolate sundae is seen, after which a pre-existing goal for eating a chocolate sundae suddenly becomes effective, or an error signal that existed all along suddenly becomes able to activate an output function for eating. This is a matter for experimental study; there doesn't seem to be any way to reason out what is likely to happen or what makes it happen. Whatever is found to be the truth, we can modify the model as required.

This has been discussed before on CSGnet, without any firm conclusions being reached. I think we just have to accept that it does happen: the sundae appears and suddenly we start controlling for getting a spoon and slurping up the sundae.

Given that the desire for a sundae exists and that it suddenly starts to become effective in producing behavior, what does it mean to say we "resist" the "urge or impulse" to eat it?

There is clearly a reference signal specifying that some lower system should be experiencing the taste of the sundae and all its other delightful properties. Excuse me for a minute, I have some ice cream in the freezer and it's calling to me ...

... heck, I forgot that I used the last of the chocolate sauce a while ago.

So how do I stop wanting a chocolate sundae? Given that reference signal, why don't I now put on my shoes and a coat, go start the car and drive it to store, get some chocolate sauce, bring it home, and have my sundae? I'm still here typing, and I didn't go. How did I manage to not go? To say I am going to resist the urge to eat is to imply that there is still active control that is pushing us in the direction of eating, so to avoid eating we have to push back against this continuing urge.

There are only two main choices: either I turn off the reference signal or otherwise disable that control system again, or I activate another control system that says, every time I start to do something to correct the error, "Do you want to be a big fat slob? It's morally wrong to indulge your primitive desire for sensations at the cost of serious future trouble, and shows that you're an inferior childish human being."

The latter is the will-power solution. In short, I somehow call up a lot of goals that require NOT eating the sundae, and try to achieve those goals at the same time as the goal of eating the sundae, a goal that is still there as active as ever. The resulting conflict prevents any action from taking place, so I don't eat the sundae. "Resistance" implies conflict.

I still want to eat the sundae, and at the same time I castigate myself for my moral failings and weak will, so I am in continual conflict every time I see a sundae. When people eat sundaes in from of me, I yell at them for being self-indulgent and self-destructive, at the same time I am drooling and wishing I could have one, too. So this is not a happy situation, even though my will power has prevailed. I feel stronger because of my will power, and weaker because of the conflict. The only good thing about this is that I don't gain a lot of weight.

There is some evidence of intrinsic or genetic differences in the tendency to seek sensation rather than defer gratification. The sensation seekers, while disadvantaged in deferring gratification, don't seem disadvantaged in the area of developing physical skills and imposing their "strength of will" in sports competition for example.

I think this will make more sense if we think in terms of controlling low-order and high-order perceptions. If the hierarchy were working normally, a higher-order system that wants to achieve a goal does so by adjusting the reference signals of lower-order systems. If a specific low-order system's controlled variable would work against achievement of the higher-order goal, whether the achievement be immediate or in the future, the higher-order system would simply reduce (perhaps to zero) the reference signal going to the lower-order system. That lower-order system would stop wanting the contraindicated perception, and some other lower-order system would start wanting something different. No problem at all. No will power needed, either. If I want to turn left at the corner, I set the reference for turning right to zero, and the reference for turning left to a nonzero value. Why should that require will power?

We are all sensation-seekers. That's the second level of control in PCT, and is used by just about every higher control system. This isn't a question of abandoning sensation-seeking for loftier goals, but of controlling sensations in a way consistent with, and as a means for, achievement of higher-order goals. I'm pretty sure the will-power solution almost always involves conflict, and is not a good solution because of that. Other solutions require resolving the conflicts, in the manner of the method of levels, so the lower-level reference signals are set to the values appropriate to the higher-order goals, with no great effort required, since that's how the hierarchy would normally operate if there were no conflicts.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2010-04.01,10.55 EUST)]

Martin Taylor 2010.03.27.11.40

Is it to have high gain in most of one’s active control units?

Yes, I think so.

I will refer to Susan Greenfield (The Human Brain page 107-108). I can’t reproduce her text, but I will describe what she writes.

"Behavior may be changed by the chemical communication between nerve cells.

Nicotine works as a type of receptor, it mimic the effects of acetylcholine ( a natural transmitter). You have to add more nicotine to maintain the effect of acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine acts on several different types of receptors, nicotine works on only one type of receptor. More nicotine lead to more acetylcholine and the global brain becomes more unbalanced"

Is it to be resistant to reorganization?

Yes, I think so. It is difficult to stop smoking, but it is not impossibe.

If the latter, how can one’s “resistance to reorganization” be varied?

Nicotine function on a certain HPCT level. I am uncertain which level. More nicotine has global effects on higher levels in the brain. I think it is possible to establish a goal at a still higher level, the principle level, I think, and reorganice.

Would it be genetic, and be an intrinsic variable, or would it be

learned as some kind of meta-control between the reorganizing

system and the perceptual control system?

I think it is genetic and it is an intrinsic variable. But I think it als can be reorganized.

The receptor which nicotine replaces is genetic.

There are people who say “Nothing you say can make me change my mind”

and people who say “Show me the evidence and I will change my mind”. Is one or

the other of those attitudes the equivalent of having a strong will, and is
either of them related to “resistance to reorganization?”

I think both are equivalent of having what people review as a strong will. And I agree with Bill that wishing to start smoking and later nicotine evoke conflicts. And I agree with Martin Lewitt that “strength of will” is a overloaded phrase.

I think both of them are more or less "resistance to reorganization.

Is “to haev a strong will” simply meaningless in PCT, and if so, what does someone
probably mean when they say that they are strong-willed?
I don’t think it is meaningless to PCT, but the concept is very complicated. PCT makes it more easy to describe what “to have a strong will” may mean.

bjorn