That's nice. Now can we talk about PCT?

[From Bill Powers (971218.1501 MST)]

CSGers, I think there is a PR message in the air to which we need to pay
attention. This message is heard whenever there seems to be some dispute
between PCT and other ways of understanding and dealing with human beings.
It comes in parts, but they're all parts of the same message.

1. There is nothing wrong with the way my colleagues and I go about our
business.

2. The profession of which I am a member has been making progress for many
years and has discovered many facts of substantial and lasting value.

3. Nobody in my field has ever acted but from the highest motives and with
the interests of others in mind.

4. It is not possible that all my mentors, teachers, and role models have
been mistaken about their approach to understanding human nature in any
important ways.

5. If PCT has anything to offer my profession, it is only as an extension
of what we already know to be the right methods and theories.

6. Criticisms of my field of knowledge can come only from personal motives
and misunderstandings; if critics truly understood how we reason in my
field, they would have nothing left to criticize.

I'm sure this list of points could be expanded, but we all can recognize
the familiar message.

So what to do when we hear it? Should we argue with it, and try to prove
logically that there is something wrong with it? Pile up evidence to show
it is wrong? Get angry about it and try to force someone to change his or
her mind? Put on demos and experiments that refute the "facts" so firmly
presented and believed?

We've all tried these things, and the one conclusion I think we would have
to agree with is that none of them works. Nobody has ever changed his or
her mind about either PCT or other theories of behavior because of any of
these attempts to persuade toward PCT or argue against other approaches.
People who come into PCT may have protested and argued, but in the end they
were persuaded by only one thing: learning the details of PCT. They have
done the persuading themselves, because they were willing to do it.

Of course I'm admonishing myself -- you've heard me doing that before, and
have seen me falling off the wagon more than once. But I keep trying to
climb back on, and hope that others will help keep me to my resolutions. In
a culture in which winning is everything and being right is the ultimate
claim to fame, it's hard to pick a different course and stick to it.

What do we say when we get that message? I think the best thing to say is
"That's nice. Now can we talk about PCT?"

So that's what I am going to say from now on, at least until my resolution
wavers again, with respect to all the arguments currently pending.

You say that drugs can cure mental illnesses? You say that reinforcement
causes behavior to change? You say that statistical measures apply to
individuals? You say that people control by running predictive models in
their heads? You say that electroconvulsive shock can fix depression?

That's nice. Now can we get back to talking about PCT?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (971218.1934)]

Bill Powers (971218.1501 MST)--

Bravo. I for one am much happier to see talk about applying CSG skills and
experience and talent to research and pracice. I look forward to being able
to do PCT research. Those who are currently able to further this infant
science should not squander the opportunity in exchange for the frustrating
pursuit of converts.

Help to willing students is another matter. ("... and the wisdom to know
the difference.")

Just say "That's nice. Can we talk about PCT now?"

I like it. It's a bit longer than "Just say no," but I like it.

  Bruce Nevin

[From Bruce Abbott (971218.2000 EST)]

CSGers, I think there is a PR message in the air to which we need to pay
attention. This message is heard whenever there seems to be some dispute
between PCT and other ways of understanding and dealing with human beings.
It comes in parts, but they're all parts of the same message. It comes from
Bill Powers and colleagues and the message is to any professional in the
life, behavioral, or social sciences.

1. There is nothing right with the way your colleagues and you go about your
business.

2. The profession of which you are a member has been making no progress and
has not discovered any facts of either substantial or lasting value.

3. Nobody in your field has ever acted but from the lowest motives and with
their own self-interests in mind, or from total ignorance.

4. It is not possible that any of your mentors, teachers, and role models have
been correct about their approach to understanding human nature in any
important ways.

5. If PCT has anything to offer your profession, it is only as a total
replacement of all previous methods and theories.

6. Criticisms of your field of knowledge from PCTers is always fair and
accurate; if critics truly understood how you reason in your
field, they would have no other option but to criticize.

I'm sure this list of points could be expanded, but we all can recognize
the familiar message.

···

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this list sounds unfair, let me assure you that it sounds no less fair to
me than the list Bill P. presented. Avery's list is far closer to the
message some of us have tried to express than Bill P.'s list is. We may
come off sounding like we believe the things stated in Bill's list, but that
is because we are arguing against a position that sounds to us much like the
list presented above. The truth, I am convinced, lies somewhere between
these extremes.

You say that drugs can cure mental illnesses? You say that reinforcement
causes behavior to change? You say that statistical measures apply to
individuals? You say that people control by running predictive models in
their heads? You say that electroconvulsive shock can fix depression?

That's nice. Now can we get back to talking about PCT?

When I discussed bipolar affective disorder, I _was_ talking about PCT, or
so I thought. I _know_ I was talking about control theory and human
behavior. Are you suggesting that these are not the same thing?

Regards,

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (971218.1800)]

Bruce Abbott (971218.2000 EST) --

When I discussed bipolar affective disorder, I _was_ talking
about PCT, or so I thought. I _know_ I was talking about
control theory and human behavior. Are you suggesting that
these are not the same thing?

Bruce, we've been trying to explain to you for the last three
years that these are, indeed, _not_ the same thing. PCT is
just _one_ of many applications of control theory to behavior.
PCT happens to be the _correct_ application of control theory
to behavior because it is based on 1) an understanding of the
nature of control 2) recognition of the fact that purposeful
behavior _is_ control and 3) an understanding of the fact that
the behavior of a control (purposeful) system is organized around
the control of _perception_, not output. No other application of
control theory to behavior recognizes even _one_ of these facts
about behavior and control.

The chicken experiment was (unconsciously done) PCT. But, with
respect to your discussion of bipolar affective disorder, all
I can say is "That's nice. Now can we get back to talking about
PCT?"

Hasta la vista, baby

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bill Powers (971218.1913 MST)]

Bruce Abbott (971218.2000 EST)]

CSGers, I think there is a PR message in the air to which we need to pay
attention. This message is heard whenever there seems to be some dispute
between PCT and other ways of understanding and dealing with human beings.
It comes in parts, but they're all parts of the same message. It comes from
Bill Powers and colleagues and the message is to any professional in the
life, behavioral, or social sciences.

1. There is nothing right with the way your colleagues and you go about your
business.

2. The profession of which you are a member has been making no progress and
has not discovered any facts of either substantial or lasting value.

3. Nobody in your field has ever acted but from the lowest motives and with
their own self-interests in mind, or from total ignorance.

4. It is not possible that any of your mentors, teachers, and role models

have

been correct about their approach to understanding human nature in any
important ways.

5. If PCT has anything to offer your profession, it is only as a total
replacement of all previous methods and theories.

6. Criticisms of your field of knowledge from PCTers is always fair and
accurate; if critics truly understood how you reason in your
field, they would have no other option but to criticize.

I'm sure this list of points could be expanded, but we all can recognize
the familiar message.

I'm sure you're absolutely right, Bruce. Can we get back to PCT now?

When I discussed bipolar affective disorder, I _was_ talking about PCT, or
so I thought. I _know_ I was talking about control theory and human
behavior. Are you suggesting that these are not the same thing?

You were making some guesses about oscillations in the brain, as I recall.
Receptors (I think you meant neurotransmitters) rising and falling,
unstable feedback loops, seretonin levels changing the loop gain, and so
forth. Tnis is certainly a possible explanation. There are probably many
others.

Can we get back to talking about PCT now?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Tim Carey (971218.1630)]

[From Bill Powers (971218.1501 MST)]

That's nice. Now can we get back to talking about PCT?

A great post Bill. I, for one, am not interested in learning about other
theories. In the long run that may make me extremely narrow minded but at
this point I don't care. I find PCT fascinating and I want to learn all I
can about it. The only benefit I think in discussing other points of view
on the net has been reading your's and Rick's replies. These replies often
cover PCT in detail. This is the reason I first subscribed to CSGnet ... to
learn PCT.

I hope this happens,

Regards,

Tim