The Buddha on PCT

[From Bruce Gregory (971004.1720 EDT)]

The Buddha said,

"And I discovered that profound truth, so difficult to
perceive, difficult to understand, tranquilizing and
sublime, which is not to be gained by mere
reasoning, and is visible only to the wise.

The world, however, is given to reinforcement, delighted
with reinforcement, enchanted with reinforcement.
Truly, such beings will hardly understand the law of
negative feedback, the dependent origination of
everything. Yet there are beings whose eyes are
only a little covered with dust: they will understand
the truth."

                (freely) translated from
                _Samyutta Nikaya_

n'th Best

[Vladimir Jojic 971004.1100 MET]

From Bruce Gregory (971004.1720 EDT)

The Buddha said,

"And I discovered that profound truth, so difficult to
perceive, difficult to understand, tranquilizing and
sublime, which is not to be gained by mere
reasoning, and is visible only to the wise.

I have a quote about Buddhism, too: :slight_smile:

   (1) Now this, O monks, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
   suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow, grieving,
   dejection, and despair are suffering. Contact with unpleasant things
   is suffering, not getting what you want is also suffering. In short,
   the five aggregates[19] of grasping are suffering.

   (2) Now this, O monks, is the noble truth of the arising of suffering:
   that craving which leads to rebirth, combined with longing and lust
   for this and that--craving for sensual pleasure, craving for rebirth,
   craving for cessation of birth.

   (3) Now this, O monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of
   suffering: It is the complete cessation without remainder of that
   craving, the abandonment, release from, and non-attachment to it.

                [from the draft of "Anthology of Scriptures of World
                 Religions", by John Powers and James Fieser]

Putting it much simpler in terms of the PCT:

"Trying to control perceptions (that you are not able to control) and
failure to do so, makes you unhappy. Therefor, to reach the happiness,
give up on controlling those perceptions ..."

Later on Buddha talks about the eightfold path that "gives the vision"
consisting of: right view, right intention, right speech, right action,
right livelihood, right effort, right mindfullnes, right concentration ...
(adding new control systems, for controlling rightness of your view,
intentions etc.)

Obviously some parts of this eightfold prescription, contradict the quoted
part, for example ... right effort means right effort towards certain
goal, so you want (desire) to fullfil your plan, so you are back in the
circle of the mortals ...

On the other hand, Buddha wanted (desired) to help people eliminate
suffering from their life, so he did not actually give up on his controlled
perception "nobody suffers" ...

                (freely) translated from
                _Samyutta Nikaya_

Heretic!

Well, you're lucky, that Buddhist don't have the inquisition ... :slight_smile:

n'th Best

Aren't you a competitive little group ...?

Regards,
Vladimir

PS. What do you say about formalizing religions ...? :slight_smile:

i.kurtzer (971005)

_I_ say screw enlightenment and quotations. _I_ say talk is cheap.
_I_ say science demands experimentation, and it is most queer that there has
been precious little student involvement in the form of recruiting, or
establishing a program for the study of living control processes.

i.

{From Bruce Gregory (971006.0945 EDT)]

i.kurtzer (971005)

_I_ say screw enlightenment and quotations. _I_ say talk is cheap.
_I_ say science demands experimentation, and it is most queer that there has
been precious little student involvement in the form of recruiting, or
establishing a program for the study of living control processes.

I suspect that I can quess what variable you are not
successfully controlling..

n'th Best

From Bruce Nevin 971006.1610

Vladimir Jojic 971004.1100 MET --

Putting it much simpler in terms of the PCT:

"Trying to control perceptions (that you are not able to control) and
failure to do so, makes you unhappy. Therefor, to reach the happiness,
give up on controlling those perceptions ..."

No, you don't stop controlling. You stop being upset when you experience
error. That's what non-attachment is about. Changing addictive demands to
preferences. To model the difference as we presently model the perceptual
control hierarchy, you have to model emotion-laden memory and imagination.
The way the Buddhists talk about it, this sounds like a loop through the
intracorporal environment, where a perception is associated with responses
in the body, which give rise to other perceptual inputs, or perhaps (also)
amplify existing perceptual inputs, and so on in a loop. Some of these
intracorporal sensations are perceived as or with emotion.

[Vladimir Jojic 971007.1130 MET]

>From Bruce Nevin 971006.1610

Vladimir Jojic 971004.1100 MET --
>Putting it much simpler in terms of the PCT:
>
>"Trying to control perceptions (that you are not able to control) and
>failure to do so, makes you unhappy. Therefor, to reach the happiness,
>give up on controlling those perceptions ..."

No, you don't stop controlling. You stop being upset when you experience
error. That's what non-attachment is about. Changing addictive demands to
preferences. To model the difference as we presently model the perceptual
control hierarchy, you have to model emotion-laden memory and imagination.
The way the Buddhists talk about it, this sounds like a loop through the
intracorporal environment, where a perception is associated with responses
in the body, which give rise to other perceptual inputs, or perhaps (also)
amplify existing perceptual inputs, and so on in a loop. Some of these
intracorporal sensations are perceived as or with emotion.

What you say sounds ok, but how do you eliminate "becoming upset".

How do we become upset? My guess is, that we have control
systems, perceiving the performance of the lower control systems, and if
the performance is different than our reference, we become upset ...

If you don't want to become upset, you eliminate the control system
controlling the performance of your control systems ... (but you
still have the right view/effort/action/etc., to keep you on the track)

(note: control system that controls the performance of other control
system, has to have some memory, since it operates on a time segment,
rather than a certain point in time)

Regards,
Vladimir

From Bruce Nevin 971007.1908

Vladimir Jojic 971007.1130 MET --

... you don't stop controlling. You stop being upset when you experience
error. That's what non-attachment is about. Changing addictive demands to
preferences. ...

What you say sounds ok, but how do you eliminate "becoming upset".

It's called meditation. There are all kinds of approaches to this, but the
fundamental techniques involve attending to some circumscribed domain of
perception. The classic vipassana technique described by Gautama aka the
Buddha starts you out with a practice called anapana. To begin with, you pay
attention to the sensations within a triangular area of your face that
includes your nose and your upper lip; with practice, you narrow this area
until you are focussed just on the sensations of the breath entering and
leaving the nostrils.

Of course you are distracted. Other perceptions seem important. Sensations
in the body seem to demand attention. Thoughts arise. Memories arise.
Imaginings arise. Feelings arise. The practice is to notice that your
attention has wandered and gently return your attention to the sensations of
the breath in that very small area.

After enough practice to be able to hold one's attention in a disciplined
way (at minimum 3 days of a 10-day course, or 1 week of a month course), you
begin to focus attention on other small areas of the body, moving
systematically through the body from head to foot, head to foot. If this
becomes too difficult, return to anapana until the focus of attention is
sharp again, then resume moving attention through the body.

One side effect of this practice over time is much more acute and immediate
awareness of perceptions as they arise, even when not meditating. Another is
an awareness of impermanence, aniccha, how these perceptions arise and fade.
Another is non-attachment -- not getting roiled up if a preference is not
met. I will say in a moment how I believe these are related.

These are side effects: it appears that if they are made aims, they don't
happen. So the direct answer to "How do you eliminate `becoming upset' is
that you don't. It falls away by itself.

How do we become upset? My guess is, ...

It may be that attachment -- the emotional and physiological turbulence that
happens when an addictive demand is not met, the addictiveness itself -- is
a side effect of not becoming aware of sensations until they become
prominent enough to demand attention, or, perhaps better, it is an effect of
the process whereby a sensation is made more acute until we cannot ignore
it. This increase in prominence appears to be brought about in a feedback
loop within the body, such as I sketched in the post to which you replied.
Perhaps it happens this way: An error signal somehow has distressing
affects. The distressing affects are themselves perceptions that we attempt
to control. Error from failure to control them has distressing affects. And
so on in a kind of mounting reverberation until we pay attention--quite
likely not to the original perception at all. Anyway, that is how I
understand certain writers on Buddhist psychology, and it is how I have
experienced it; and it explains why when one simply attends more immediately
to perceptions as they arise (and pass away), attachment stops happening, as
I mentioned earlier.

In the classic vipassana (vipasyana) technique the focus is at the sensation
level, but the chosen focus of attention can be at any level.

If this is of interest, I can look for a clearer description by a qualified
teacher of these disciplines.

I. Kurtzer aka myrexsw, all of this is available for experiment by
individuals (that's what these 3,000-year Buddhist traditions are, really,
and other traditions of teaching and practice we could talk about,
experiment and discourse about how the experiments go) but I wouldn't know
how to model it.

If you don't want to become upset, you eliminate the control system
controlling the performance of your control systems

I don't think there is any control system controlling the performance of
control systems -- are you suggesting that a control system might take the
error signals of other control systems as perceptual input? Wouldn't fly.

Now some rampant speculation. Readers offended by lack of experimental
grounding may want to discard this message at this point, if you have not
done so already.

It appears likely that error has physiological effects (maybe local chemical
and/or electrical effects) that result in reorganization, and that
reorganization is distressing, or the effects of error that trigger
reorganization are distressing. This is my interpretation of subjective
experience; I have no physiological research to back me up, but I would just
bet that things like adrenaline, endorphins, and all kinds of other stuff go
in the biochemical soup in the intracorporal environment when there is
prolonged error in our control of perceptions. We get angry, impatient,
depressed, all kinds of stuff goes on.

So it seems to me likely that the occasion for some little neurons changing
what they control as cells (maybe affecting the gain in a control system, or
after a longer time changing neural connections, but these are side-effects
from the cell's point of view) might just be some chemical contributions to
the shared intracellular environment by the cells of a control system that
is unable to make its perceptual input match its reference input. As these
cellular byproducts of error in a control system diffuse more widely, the
cells that make up other control systems begin to change what they control.
Affects of such changes through the control hierarchy would be more immediate.

This is wildly speculative, of course. But it seems clear that the
behavioral byproducts of these little neuron critters just carrying on their
tiny lives as cells somehow constitute a control hierarchy in process of
reorganization. The cells aren't aiming to do that--they cannot control a
perception of being part of a multi-cell control system, they cannot even
perceive a perceptual signal or reference signal or error signal at that
level of multicellular organization-- but that is an effect or result of
what they do control as cells. How does that happen?

At a gross level, where we cannot ignore effects like elevated heart rate or
mood changes, biochemicals like endorphins and adrenaline are obviously
involved. Perhaps they are also involved at more subtle early stages of the
process, before the process of reverberation that seems to make things
unignorably distressing.

        Bruce