The Economy as Feedback Function

CSGnet Archive CSG2011
1

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.0930)]

While thinking about my little diagram that includes the economy as a
"feedback function" in an aggregate control loop I realized that this
way of looking at things may be a lot easier to understand (and model)
if looked at from the point of view of an individual controller. So I
am posting another diagram showing how I view an individual's
relationship to an economy.

This diagram represents how I conceptualize my own relationship to the
economy. So I am the individual controller in the diagram and I have
references (desires, wants, needs) for all kinds of goods and
services. I control for those goods and services by generating
outputs in the form of labor (work, production) and payments. These
outputs go into the economy and are turned into inputs to me in the
form of wages (monetary compensation) and the goods and services that
I want.

The economy, from my perspective, is a "black box". I (like everyone)
have ideas about how that black box works, of course, but I don't
really know how it works. But I do know that, if there were no
economy between my outputs and my inputs I would have to control for
meeting my wants and needs by controlling all on my own via the
environment. For example, if there were no economy and I wanted a
computer I would have to build that computer myself completely from
scratch (and I mean _scratch_, which includes mining, smelting and
stamping the materials that go into it). But with the economic
feedback function in place I can produce a computer for myself by
simply handing a credit card to a cashier. The economic system
connects my output (handing over the credit card) to my desired input
(the computer) via processes that occur in the economic "black box" --
processes of which I am only vaguely aware.

I believe that when we model an economy we are modeling the processes
that go on in the economic "black box". That is, we are modeling the
environmental feedback function that connects the outputs to the
inputs of the individual controllers who live in that economic
environment. From this perspective, different economic systems
represent somewhat different feedback functions.

from an individual perspective, the goodness of an economic feedback
function can be evaluated by how well the individual can control (get
inputs to match references) in the context of that economic system
(feedback function). So at an individual level we can, in principle,
evaluate the goodness of different economic systems in the same way
that we would evaluate the goodness of different surfaces on which to
move a mouse controller to get the most accurate control of cursor
position: we could compare the ability of equivalent individuals (in
terms of capabilities and wants/needs) to control in the context of
the different economic systems.

This approach to evaluating economies could be done without detailed
modeling of the economies. It would be an empirical approach to
measuring the goodness of different economic systems in terms of
equivalent measures of control. The research problem, in this case,
would be finding what could be agreed on as the appropriate measures
of control. Of course, it would also be important to see how well a
relatively wide range of different individuals (individuals with
different capabilities, mainly) are able to control in the context of
different economic systems. Economic feedback systems probably differ
not only in how well they allow equivalent individuals to control but
also in how many of the individuals in equivalent groups are able to
control well.

I think this is a reasonable basis for a PCT based research program in
economics.

Best

Rick

IndividualInEconomy.gif

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Content-Type: image/gif; name="IndividualInEconomy.gif"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IndividualInEconomy.gif"
X-Attachment-Id: f_gnv6q6xa0

2

[From Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)]

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, "By George, he's got it!"

Points well-taken, Rick. I wonder if Ludwig von Mises' work might fit in
and contribute to that scheme of things?

Fred Nickols

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 9:36 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: The Economy as Feedback Function

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.0930)]

While thinking about my little diagram that includes the economy as a
"feedback function" in an aggregate control loop I realized that this way of
looking at things may be a lot easier to understand (and model) if looked at
from the point of view of an individual controller. So I am posting another
diagram showing how I view an individual's relationship to an economy.

This diagram represents how I conceptualize my own relationship to the
economy. So I am the individual controller in the diagram and I have
references (desires, wants, needs) for all kinds of goods and services. I
control for those goods and services by generating outputs in the form of
labor (work, production) and payments. These outputs go into the economy and
are turned into inputs to me in the form of wages (monetary compensation)
and the goods and services that I want.

The economy, from my perspective, is a "black box". I (like everyone) have
ideas about how that black box works, of course, but I don't really know how
it works. But I do know that, if there were no economy between my outputs
and my inputs I would have to control for meeting my wants and needs by
controlling all on my own via the environment. For example, if there were
no economy and I wanted a computer I would have to build that computer
myself completely from scratch (and I mean _scratch_, which includes mining,
smelting and stamping the materials that go into it). But with the economic
feedback function in place I can produce a computer for myself by simply
handing a credit card to a cashier. The economic system connects my output
(handing over the credit card) to my desired input (the computer) via
processes that occur in the economic "black box" -- processes of which I am
only vaguely aware.

I believe that when we model an economy we are modeling the processes that
go on in the economic "black box". That is, we are modeling the
environmental feedback function that connects the outputs to the inputs of
the individual controllers who live in that economic environment. From this
perspective, different economic systems represent somewhat different
feedback functions.

from an individual perspective, the goodness of an economic feedback
function can be evaluated by how well the individual can control (get inputs
to match references) in the context of that economic system (feedback
function). So at an individual level we can, in principle, evaluate the
goodness of different economic systems in the same way that we would
evaluate the goodness of different surfaces on which to move a mouse
controller to get the most accurate control of cursor
position: we could compare the ability of equivalent individuals (in terms
of capabilities and wants/needs) to control in the context of the different
economic systems.

This approach to evaluating economies could be done without detailed
modeling of the economies. It would be an empirical approach to measuring
the goodness of different economic systems in terms of equivalent measures
of control. The research problem, in this case, would be finding what could
be agreed on as the appropriate measures of control. Of course, it would
also be important to see how well a relatively wide range of different
individuals (individuals with different capabilities, mainly) are able to
control in the context of different economic systems. Economic feedback
systems probably differ not only in how well they allow equivalent
individuals to control but also in how many of the individuals in equivalent
groups are able to control well.

I think this is a reasonable basis for a PCT based research program in
economics.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

3

[Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1105 MST)]

Rick:

Thanks again for this. You have given me an entirely new example to use
with my Target Model. Please take a look at the attachment and tell me I've
got it right.

Fred Nickols

Individual and Economy.docx (22 KB)

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 9:36 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: The Economy as Feedback Function

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.0930)]

While thinking about my little diagram that includes the economy as a
"feedback function" in an aggregate control loop I realized that this way of
looking at things may be a lot easier to understand (and model) if looked at
from the point of view of an individual controller. So I am posting another
diagram showing how I view an individual's relationship to an economy.

This diagram represents how I conceptualize my own relationship to the
economy. So I am the individual controller in the diagram and I have
references (desires, wants, needs) for all kinds of goods and services. I
control for those goods and services by generating outputs in the form of
labor (work, production) and payments. These outputs go into the economy and
are turned into inputs to me in the form of wages (monetary compensation)
and the goods and services that I want.

The economy, from my perspective, is a "black box". I (like everyone) have
ideas about how that black box works, of course, but I don't really know how
it works. But I do know that, if there were no economy between my outputs
and my inputs I would have to control for meeting my wants and needs by
controlling all on my own via the environment. For example, if there were
no economy and I wanted a computer I would have to build that computer
myself completely from scratch (and I mean _scratch_, which includes mining,
smelting and stamping the materials that go into it). But with the economic
feedback function in place I can produce a computer for myself by simply
handing a credit card to a cashier. The economic system connects my output
(handing over the credit card) to my desired input (the computer) via
processes that occur in the economic "black box" -- processes of which I am
only vaguely aware.

I believe that when we model an economy we are modeling the processes that
go on in the economic "black box". That is, we are modeling the
environmental feedback function that connects the outputs to the inputs of
the individual controllers who live in that economic environment. From this
perspective, different economic systems represent somewhat different
feedback functions.

from an individual perspective, the goodness of an economic feedback
function can be evaluated by how well the individual can control (get inputs
to match references) in the context of that economic system (feedback
function). So at an individual level we can, in principle, evaluate the
goodness of different economic systems in the same way that we would
evaluate the goodness of different surfaces on which to move a mouse
controller to get the most accurate control of cursor
position: we could compare the ability of equivalent individuals (in terms
of capabilities and wants/needs) to control in the context of the different
economic systems.

This approach to evaluating economies could be done without detailed
modeling of the economies. It would be an empirical approach to measuring
the goodness of different economic systems in terms of equivalent measures
of control. The research problem, in this case, would be finding what could
be agreed on as the appropriate measures of control. Of course, it would
also be important to see how well a relatively wide range of different
individuals (individuals with different capabilities, mainly) are able to
control in the context of different economic systems. Economic feedback
systems probably differ not only in how well they allow equivalent
individuals to control but also in how many of the individuals in equivalent
groups are able to control well.

I think this is a reasonable basis for a PCT based research program in
economics.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

4

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.1150)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)--

FN: To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, "By George, he's got it!"

Points well-taken, Rick. �I wonder if Ludwig von Mises' work might fit in
and contribute to that scheme of things?

Whoppee!! You like me! You really like me! :wink:

Thanks, Fred. Very encouraging.

(Keynes, Smith, Ricardo, Marx, etc) are describing the way they think
the inside of the economic feedback function is organized and/or
should be organized (by the way, I include in that economic feedback
function black box everything that affects the relationship between an
individual's outputs to and inputs from the economy; government laws
and regulations and lack thereof, cultural norms, etc). The fact is
right now all nations have slightly to very different economic
"feedback functions" so we can do the studies I suggested by looking
at equivalent individual controllers in different countries.

In your next post, Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1105 MST), you sent a nice
diagram of your Target Model and ask for my comments. My main comment
is that I think it's super! I would change only two things: 1) I think
the arrow between Goals and the little figure should point from the
Goals to the figure, rather than the way it is now; the Goals are
actually inside the little figure but since the circle is labelled "an
Individual" I think that change in the arrow pointing direction will
communicate that fact. 2) I would remove the arrow going from Goals to
Targets; there is no actual connection between Goals and Target other
than the one mediated by Perception so I think that arrow is
unnecessary, if not also possibly confusing.

Best

Rick

···

from my point of view von Mises and all other economic theorists
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

5

[From Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1217 MST)]

Rick:

Thanks for getting back to me. Glad you like it. In response to your
comments...

The arrow originally pointed from Goals to the individual, indicating they
were the individual's goals. I turned it around to indicate that the
individual sets them in relation to variables in the environment. Hence,
too, the dashed line from goals to the target (variable), which indicates
that the goals apply to the target.

Lately, I've been thinking about making the line between the individual and
goals a two-way arrow, indicating that the individual sets them in relation
to target variables, that they are the individual's goals and that it is
possible for individuals to adopt goals that originate with others and truly
make them their own. But I'm not sure just yet.

The Targets, then, are what we call "controlled variables." The Goals
specify the reference state or desired value for the variable in question.
Frankly, the biggest difficulty I run into is getting people to see the
importance of the difference between the variable and the specified value
for it. But, a couple of examples usually takes care of that.

Thanks again for taking time to review and comment.

And, yes, Rick, I like you. More important, I respect you and your grasp of
PCT.

Fred Nickols

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:51 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as Feedback Function

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.1150)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)--

FN: To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, "By George, he's got it!"

Points well-taken, Rick. �I wonder if Ludwig von Mises' work might fit in
and contribute to that scheme of things?

Whoppee!! You like me! You really like me! :wink:

Thanks, Fred. Very encouraging.

from my point of view von Mises and all other economic theorists
(Keynes, Smith, Ricardo, Marx, etc) are describing the way they think
the inside of the economic feedback function is organized and/or
should be organized (by the way, I include in that economic feedback
function black box everything that affects the relationship between an
individual's outputs to and inputs from the economy; government laws
and regulations and lack thereof, cultural norms, etc). The fact is
right now all nations have slightly to very different economic
"feedback functions" so we can do the studies I suggested by looking
at equivalent individual controllers in different countries.

In your next post, Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1105 MST), you sent a nice
diagram of your Target Model and ask for my comments. My main comment
is that I think it's super! I would change only two things: 1) I think
the arrow between Goals and the little figure should point from the
Goals to the figure, rather than the way it is now; the Goals are
actually inside the little figure but since the circle is labelled "an
Individual" I think that change in the arrow pointing direction will
communicate that fact. 2) I would remove the arrow going from Goals to
Targets; there is no actual connection between Goals and Target other
than the one mediated by Perception so I think that arrow is
unnecessary, if not also possibly confusing.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

6

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.21.1700)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1217 MST)--

Lately, I've been thinking about making the line between the individual and
goals a two-way arrow, indicating that the individual sets them in relation
to target variables, that they are the individual's goals and that it is
possible for individuals to adopt goals that originate with others and truly
make them their own. �But I'm not sure just yet.

I would be against it. I see the arrows as functional links. To the
extent that people individuals set their goals in relation to target
variables it's because the individuals are controlling for doing that;
it's not the target variables that are doing it. So the direction of
the functional connection between goals (references) and target
variables is always one way-- from goals to target variables.

The Targets, then, are what we call "controlled variables." �The Goals
specify the reference state or desired value for the variable in question.
Frankly, the biggest difficulty I run into is getting people to see the
importance of the difference between the variable and the specified value
for it. �But, a couple of examples usually takes care of that.

Thanks again for taking time to review and comment.

And, yes, Rick, I like you. �More important, I respect you and your grasp of

Thanks Fred. I kinda knew that but it's nice to hear. My little shtick
about "You like me. You really like me" is actually what Sally Fields
(the actress, at one time best known as the Flying Nun) said when she
won an Academy Award. I kind of hate to admit that I know that but I
always thought it was kind of cute. Sally Field said it because the
Award showed that her peers respected her as a real actress, not just
a cute sit-com personality.

Best

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

7

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)--

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, "By George, he's got it!"

Well it looks like you're the only one interested in this "economy as
feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
"the" economy.

2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
who produced it.

3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
variations in characteristics of the economic "feedback function".
These variations could be handled by parameterizing the "essential
economy" characterized by points a) and b).

4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a "big deal". Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy's "work" in the sense that they provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it's the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii's) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That's just my stinkin' values. For example, who's to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden's) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that's what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won't get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we've got still "works" -- just as the
crappy mouse pad still "works" in the sense that it allows the user to
control the cursor -- even if it doesn't work as well as I think it
could.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

8

[From Fred Nickols (2011.05.22.1312 MST)]

Rick:

I am nowhere near smart enough to model the economy. My dealings with "the
economy" are limited to trying to get some paid work. Money coming in soon
translates to money going out (with maybe a little retained for the fabled
rainy day). Money coming in ties to paid work (no, I don't have sizable
investments producing income for me; I'm a working stiff), hence my search
for paid work. If I think of money coming in in terms of the
proximate-ultimate continuum I mentioned a while back as being on the
ultimate end, the question for me is what I can do in the here and now that
will lead to paid work? Well, I figure it has to do with being visible,
with saying and doing things that pique/arouse interest on the part of those
with money to spend and who see what I might bring to the party as worth
some of that money. To illustrate: I recently went up to Phoenix to be
part of a debate about performance appraisals. The event was hosted by
Littler-Mendleson, a big labor relations law firm. As it happens, I had
already scheduled a presentation to the Phoenix chapter of ISPI the night
before the debate. One of the people who attended the ISPI session liked my
presentation and the materials on my web site. Presto! Paid work. I don't
think there's an "economy" at work in that; just a couple of people who
bumped into one another and discovered some mutual interests. Fortunately,
one of them had some money and was willing to give it to the other one.

All that said, I do appreciate the efforts of others and so I pay attention
and try to learn what I can.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 12:16 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as Feedback Function

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)--

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, "By George, he's got it!"

Well it looks like you're the only one interested in this "economy as
feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
"the" economy.

2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
who produced it.

3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
variations in characteristics of the economic "feedback function".
These variations could be handled by parameterizing the "essential
economy" characterized by points a) and b).

4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a "big deal". Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy's "work" in the sense that they provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it's the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii's) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That's just my stinkin' values. For example, who's to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden's) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that's what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won't get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we've got still "works" -- just as the
crappy mouse pad still "works" in the sense that it allows the user to
control the cursor -- even if it doesn't work as well as I think it
could.

Best

Rick

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

9

bob hintz 2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx, but failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops for each individual controller. The control of income has its own disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud, etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an individual’s territory (for some this is walking distance, or public transportation, for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of different goods and services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health insurance even if it is available at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the internet.

bob

···

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re the only one interested in this "economy as

feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple

other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model

“the” economy.

  1. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common

to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies

is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and

services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those

who produced it.

  1. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in

variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.

These variations could be handled by parameterizing the "essential

economy" characterized by points a) and b).

  1. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback

functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are

able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little

less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes

these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a

feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they provide

individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she

could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things

than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments

(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make

it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other

environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment

and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some

economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?

That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an

economy that allows people to control for their health care needs

easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes

it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that

in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to

live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health

emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in

the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if

there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of

distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better

economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it

because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the

crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user to

control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it

could.

Best

Rick

–

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

10

See attached

Individual and Economy.doc (33.5 KB)

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as Feedback Function

bob hintz 2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx, but failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops for each individual controller. The control of income has its own disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud, etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an individual’s territory (for some this is walking distance, or public transportation, for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of different goods and services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health insurance even if it is available at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re the only one interested in this “economy as
feedback function” idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
    “the” economy.

  2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
    to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
    is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
    services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
    who produced it.

  3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
    variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.
    These variations could be handled by parameterizing the “essential
    economy” characterized by points a) and b).

  4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
    functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
    able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the
crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user to
control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it
could.

Best

Rick

–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

11

Fred

Can you do a mapping with the individuals
and the Controlled variable, output quantity, disturbances, feedback function,
input quantity. In other words how will the mapping look with the environment quantities
and functions? That is a multiple mapping.

Regards

Gavin

Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
a.m.
Feedback Function

See
attached

Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group
Sent: Monday, 23 May 2011 9:09
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
From: Control
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

bob
hintz 2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx, but
failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops
for each individual controller. The control of income has its own
disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the
location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the
acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the availability
of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud, etc., the
availability and price of the goods and services within an individual’s
territory (for some this is walking distance, or public transportation, for
other it is the world as a whole), and priority of different goods and services
(cost of food and shelter may preclude health insurance even if it is available
at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the
internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re
the only one interested in this "economy as

feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple

other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model

“the” economy.

  1. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common

to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies

is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and

services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those

who produced it.

  1. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in

variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.

These variations could be handled by parameterizing the "essential

economy" characterized by points a) and b).

  1. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback

functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are

able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little

less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes

these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a

feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they
provide

individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she

could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things

than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments

(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make

it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other

environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment

and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some

economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?

That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an

economy that allows people to control for their health care needs

easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes

it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that

in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to

live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health

emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in

the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if

there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of

distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better

economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it

because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the

crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user
to

control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it

could.

Best

Rick

–

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

12

sorry, Gavin, but I don’t understand your question.

···

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2011, at 16:22, Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ wrote:

Fred

Can you do a mapping with the individuals
and the Controlled variable, output quantity, disturbances, feedback function,
input quantity. In other words how will the mapping look with the environment quantities
and functions? That is a multiple mapping.

Regards

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group
Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
Sent: Monday, 23 May 2011 9:09
a.m.
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

See
attached

From: Control
Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

bob
hintz 2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx, but
failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops
for each individual controller. The control of income has its own
disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the
location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the
acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the availability
of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud, etc., the
availability and price of the goods and services within an individual’s
territory (for some this is walking distance, or public transportation, for
other it is the world as a whole), and priority of different goods and services
(cost of food and shelter may preclude health insurance even if it is available
at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the
internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at > 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com > wrote:

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re
the only one interested in this "economy as

feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple

other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model

“the” economy.

  1. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common

to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies

is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and

services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those

who produced it.

  1. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in

variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.

These variations could be handled by parameterizing the "essential

economy" characterized by points a) and b).

  1. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback

functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are

able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little

less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes

these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a

feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they
provide

individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she

could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things

than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments

(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make

it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other

environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment

and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some

economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?

That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an

economy that allows people to control for their health care needs

easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes

it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that

in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to

live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health

emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in

the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if

there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of

distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better

economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it

because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the

crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user
to

control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it

could.

Best

Rick

–

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

13

Fred

For any model to be mathematically circumscribed
it requires some form of mapping. For example when we have two sets A and B
they can be mapped by a function that transforms elements of set A into elements
of set B. This is one of the foundations of mathematics. Mathematical category Theory.

So for example in PCT lets say the output
function (as per PCT) has two sets X and Y, set X has elements x which can be
the neural signals. Then set Y is the output quantities, then the function transforms
those elements x of set X into the elements y of set Y.

In the environment as per PCT there are a
number of variables and a number of so called functions. Output Quantities,
feedback functions, disturbances, controlled variables, input quantities. All
these aspects of PCT should be able to be mapped to each other, in an economy it’s
the interaction of these that make the economy (of-course all the internal control
stuff too).

So what I would like to understand is how
do these variables and functions look in a mapping. Say we have multiple
individuals they all have external variables and functions what does this
mapping look like.

So ignore the internal control systems how
would all the external variables and functions look in a mapping.

Regards

Gavin

sorry, Gavin, but I don’t
understand your question.

···

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2011, at 16:22, Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ wrote:

Fred

Can you
do a mapping with the individuals and the Controlled variable, output quantity,
disturbances, feedback function, input quantity. In other words how will the
mapping look with the environment quantities and functions? That is a multiple
mapping.

Regards

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group
Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
Sent: Monday, 23 May
2011 9:09 a.m.
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

See
attached

From: Control
Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Sunday, May 22,
2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

bob hintz
2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx,
but failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops
for each individual controller. The control of income has its own
disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the
location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the
acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the
availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud,
etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an
individual’s territory (for some this is walking distance, or public
transportation, for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of
different goods and services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health
insurance even if it is available at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the
internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re
the only one interested in this "economy as

feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a
couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
    “the” economy.

  2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
    to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
    is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
    services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
    who produced it.

  3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
    variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.
    These variations could be handled by parameterizing the “essential
    economy” characterized by points a) and b).

  4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
    functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
    able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the
crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user
to
control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it
could.

Best

Rick

–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

14

Well, now I’m even more confused, I suspect my math skills are not up to the task.

Fred

···

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2011, at 18:19, Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ wrote:

Fred

For any model to be mathematically circumscribed
it requires some form of mapping. For example when we have two sets A and B
they can be mapped by a function that transforms elements of set A into elements
of set B. This is one of the foundations of mathematics. Mathematical category Theory.

So for example in PCT lets say the output
function (as per PCT) has two sets X and Y, set X has elements x which can be
the neural signals. Then set Y is the output quantities, then the function transforms
those elements x of set X into the elements y of set Y.

In the environment as per PCT there are a
number of variables and a number of so called functions. Output Quantities,
feedback functions, disturbances, controlled variables, input quantities. All
these aspects of PCT should be able to be mapped to each other, in an economy it’s
the interaction of these that make the economy (of-course all the internal control
stuff too).

So what I would like to understand is how
do these variables and functions look in a mapping. Say we have multiple
individuals they all have external variables and functions what does this
mapping look like.

So ignore the internal control systems how
would all the external variables and functions look in a mapping.

Regards

Gavin

sorry, Gavin, but I don’t
understand your question.

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2011, at 16:22, Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ wrote:

Fred

Can you
do a mapping with the individuals and the Controlled variable, output quantity,
disturbances, feedback function, input quantity. In other words how will the
mapping look with the environment quantities and functions? That is a multiple
mapping.

Regards

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group
Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
Sent: Monday, 23 May
2011 9:09 a.m.
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

See
attached

From: Control
Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Sunday, May 22,
2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

bob hintz
2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx,
but failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops
for each individual controller. The control of income has its own
disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the
location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the
acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the
availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud,
etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an
individual’s territory (for some this is walking distance, or public
transportation, for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of
different goods and services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health
insurance even if it is available at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the
internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re
the only one interested in this "economy as

feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a
couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
    “the” economy.

  2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
    to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
    is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
    services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
    who produced it.

  3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
    variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.
    These variations could be handled by parameterizing the “essential
    economy” characterized by points a) and b).

  4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
    functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
    able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the
crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user
to
control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it
could.

Best

Rick

–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

15

Okay Fred

It’s just that mapping the economy like
a control system (the entire control system) is not very sound, as the economy
is only the environment part (but lots of pieces of the environmental part) so
that is what is required to be mapped.

Further in near equilibrium systems (like
an economy) with lots of variables there is something called Onsager
Cross-inductions (or reciprocal relations), this is like the multiplier effect
only much worse. So I would like to see the mappings of these environment variables
and functions.

You can get cross inductions in the human
mind too, something that PCT has not considered at all. (but that’s
another story).

Regards

Gavin

Well, now I’m even more
confused, I suspect my math skills are not up to the task.

Fred

···

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2011, at 18:19, Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ wrote:

Fred

For any
model to be mathematically circumscribed it requires some form of mapping. For
example when we have two sets A and B they can be mapped by a function that
transforms elements of set A into elements of set B. This is one of the
foundations of mathematics. Mathematical category Theory.

So for
example in PCT lets say the output function (as per PCT) has two sets X and Y,
set X has elements x which can be the neural signals. Then set Y is the output
quantities, then the function transforms those elements x of set X into the
elements y of set Y.

In the
environment as per PCT there are a number of variables and a number of so
called functions. Output Quantities, feedback functions, disturbances,
controlled variables, input quantities. All these aspects of PCT should be able
to be mapped to each other, in an economy it’s the interaction of these
that make the economy (of-course all the internal control stuff too).

So what
I would like to understand is how do these variables and functions look in a mapping.
Say we have multiple individuals they all have external variables and functions
what does this mapping look like.

So
ignore the internal control systems how would all the external variables and
functions look in a mapping.

Regards

Gavin

sorry, Gavin, but I don’t
understand your question.

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2011, at 16:22, Gavin Ritz garritz@XTRA.CO.NZ > wrote:

Fred

Can you
do a mapping with the individuals and the Controlled variable, output quantity,
disturbances, feedback function, input quantity. In other words how will the
mapping look with the environment quantities and functions? That is a multiple
mapping.

Regards

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group
Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
Sent: Monday, 23 May
2011 9:09 a.m.
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

See
attached

From: Control
Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Sunday, May 22,
2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as
Feedback Function

bob hintz
2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx,
but failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops
for each individual controller. The control of income has its own
disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the
location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the
acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the
availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud,
etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an
individual’s territory (for some this is walking distance, or public transportation,
for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of different goods and
services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health insurance even if it is
available at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the
internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com > > wrote:

[From Rick Marken
(2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”

Well it looks like you’re
the only one interested in this "economy as

feedback function" idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a
couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
    “the” economy.

  2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
    to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
    is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
    services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
    who produced it.

  3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
    variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.
    These variations could be handled by parameterizing the “essential
    economy” characterized by points a) and b).

  4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
    functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
    able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they
provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the
crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user
to
control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it
could.

Best

Rick

–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

16

[From Rick Marken (2011.05.22.2005)]

bob hintz (2011.05.22)

I think Rick's model will need to include at least two separate feedback
loops for each individual controller.

You betcha! I combined what must be the work of a very large number of
control loops into just one loop to make the role of the economy as
"feedback function" more obvious. Definitely an oversimplification.

The control of income has its own
disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the
location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc.� The control of the
acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the
availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud,
etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an
individual's territory (for some this is walking distance, or public
transportation, for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of
different goods and services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health
insurance even if it is available at place of employment).

Yes, for sure! And many of the "disturbances" you mention --
availability of employment, the rate of pay, the location of jobs,
the requirements to be hired -- I see as characteristics of the
economic feedback function itself. But that's a question to be
decided by the modeling.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

17

bob hintz 2011.05.22

Thanks, Fred

I have it now.

bob

···

On May 23, 2011 5:09am, Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us wrote:

See attached From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Hintz
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 1:23 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: The Economy as Feedback Function
bob hintz 2011.05.22

I have been trying to open Fred’s Individual and economy docx, but failing. Would it possible to repost a regular doc version.

I think Rick’s model will need to include at least two separate feedback loops for each individual controller. The control of income has its own disturbances, such as the availability of employment, the rate of pay, the location of jobs, the requirements to be hired, etc. The control of the acquisition of desired goods and services will depend in part on the availability of income from labor, gifts, loans, investment, theft, fraud, etc., the availability and price of the goods and services within an individual’s territory (for some this is walking distance, or public transportation, for other it is the world as a whole), and priority of different goods and services (cost of food and shelter may preclude health insurance even if it is available at place of employment).

I am working my way through an economics education with the Khan Academy on the internet.

bob

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com> wrote:[From Rick Marken (2011.05.22.1215)]

Fred Nickols (2011.05.21.1042 MST)–

To paraphrase Colonel Pickering, “By George, he’s got it!”
Well it looks like you’re the only one interested in this “economy as
feedback function” idea, Fred. But I would like to mention a couple
other things that came to mind when I think of the economy this way.

  1. There are many kinds of economies so it will be difficult to model
    “the” economy.

  2. Modeling an economy will be a matter of figuring out what is common
    to all economies. I would guess that what is common to all economies
    is a) specialization and coordination in the production of goods and
    services and b) distribution of what is produced to those who those
    who produced it.

  3. Variations in how a) and b) are accomplished will results in
    variations in characteristics of the economic “feedback function”.
    These variations could be handled by parameterizing the “essential
    economy” characterized by points a) and b).

  4. Differences in characteristics of different economic feedback
    functions should be detectable in how well equivalent individuals are
    able to control certain variables in the context of those economies.

Actually, this way of looking at an economy helps me feel a little
less anger at those with whom I disagree about economics. It makes
these disagreements less of a “big deal”. Since an economy is a
feedback function, all economy’s “work” in the sense that they provide
individual controllers with access to goods and services that he/she
could not possibly produce on his/her own.

Some economies make it easier for some people to control some things
than other economies; but it’s the same with physical environments
(physical feedback functions); some environments (like Hawaii’s) make
it easier to control for some things (like surfing) than do other
environments (like the upper Midwest).

Controllers have to learn to control in the context of the environment
and economy (feedback functions) they get. I happen to think some
economic feedback functions would be better than others but so what?
That’s just my stinkin’ values. For example, who’s to say that an
economy that allows people to control for their health care needs
easily and effectively (like Sweden’s) is better than one that makes
it a living hell for some people to get the care they need (like that
in the US)?

If people value having the freedom to pay no taxes over the freedom to
live without the fear of being financially ruined by a health
emergency then that’s what they like. Both economies still work, in
the sense that they provide things that one could not possibly get if
there were not specialized/coordinated production and some means of
distribution of that production to the producers.

So while I will continue to work for what I perceive as a better
economic feedback function, I won’t get all bent out of shape about it
because I know that whatever we’ve got still “works” – just as the
crappy mouse pad still “works” in the sense that it allows the user to
control the cursor – even if it doesn’t work as well as I think it
could.
Best

Rick

–
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com