The golden number?

[philip 8/24/14 10:49am]

I’m sure everyone knows that the golden number is aesthetically pleasing. Studies suggest that we invariably prefer a shape proportioned in this ratio. So, I’m curious about what you guys think about this number and perception. I am extremely hard pressed to find this number discussed in the context of control systems. But let me point out 3 important places you find this number:

  1. In the solar system among the spacing of various planets and moons.

  2. On the earth among the spacing of megalithic monuments (both in each individual monument as well as their spacing around the earth).

  3. In the anatomic physiology of all living control systems.

I mean, this number is basically the skeleton key of the universe. I think PCTists should have something to say about this.

[john kirkland 2014 08 25 1132 NZT]

This is not meant to be a quip though that’s how it’s tended to render.

The Fibonocci Series is error free; it ‘is’ there, in space and re-discoverable.

If I may take a few moments let me try to describe some recent experiences and how these may, or may not, fit into my gradual appreciation and understanding of PCT. This is risky as I’m going out on a limb here. Nonetheless, as usual, comments and suggestions welcomed. For me these ideas are all quite embryonic, though I am sure others have been there already. Here goes –

In Turkey I was given a copy of Pamuk’s novel ‘Museum of Innocence’ and whilst in Istanbul went to visit this museum as well. Before entering we thought an hour would be sufficient to look it over. It took almost three. I’m going to revisit the book since Pamuk has a knack of bending time.

Here’s a synopsis of the MoI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/books/orhan-pamuk-opens-museum-based-on-his-novel-in-istanbul.html?_r=0

One thing led to another since the novel and museum precipitated thinking about and exploring further possible relations between space, time and place (including objects). In brief, at this stage I’ve decided space = place x time (yes, it is an Ohm’s law analogy). Hence maybe, in an adaptation of PCT lingua franca, we each carve out perceptions from space by continuously adjusting slightly different events (objects/places) around a non-linear time-line (analog, not digital); because purposes are always mis-matched to actions and thus there is a requirement for an on-going negative feedback error-correcting loop. In this venture I’m grappling with bringing into co-existence: a. the spatial (parallel, simultaneous) associations occurring within a closed loop which, b. have analog but not necessarily digital or linear sequencing and, c. occur in some recognisable place (object and location).

Hence, possibly, the Fibonacci series is a sequence that is simultaneously spatial and can be put into place.

And, I did like the ‘skeleton key’ metaphor.

Kind regards

JohnK

···

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:09 AM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

[philip 8/24/14 10:49am]

I’m sure everyone knows that the golden number is aesthetically pleasing. Studies suggest that we invariably prefer a shape proportioned in this ratio. So, I’m curious about what you guys think about this number and perception. I am extremely hard pressed to find this number discussed in the context of control systems. But let me point out 3 important places you find this number:

  1. In the solar system among the spacing of various planets and moons.
  1. On the earth among the spacing of megalithic monuments (both in each individual monument as well as their spacing around the earth).
  1. In the anatomic physiology of all living control systems.

I mean, this number is basically the skeleton key of the universe. I think PCTists should have something to say about this.

[philip 8/25/14 12:52]

John, I’m curious to what you’re talking about in this ‘limba romana’ paragraph about mismatching purposes to actions.

Currently being discussed on CSGnet is the issue of “real” vs “imaginary” environmental variables. The talk seems to be about defining a distinction between:

  1. what we perceive from the environment, and

  2. what we add to our perception through pure imagination.

You say about the Fibonacci sequence: it ‘is’ there, in space and re-discoverable. You refer to it as a sequence that simultaneously exists in space and place. But can you describe what the golden number has to do with the taste of lemonade?

Best Regards,

Phil

···

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:51 PM, John Kirkland johnkirkland@gmail.com wrote:

[john kirkland 2014 08 25 1132 NZT]

This is not meant to be a quip though that’s how it’s tended to render.

The Fibonocci Series is error free; it ‘is’ there, in space and re-discoverable.

If I may take a few moments let me try to describe some recent experiences and how these may, or may not, fit into my gradual appreciation and understanding of PCT. This is risky as I’m going out on a limb here. Nonetheless, as usual, comments and suggestions welcomed. For me these ideas are all quite embryonic, though I am sure others have been there already. Here goes –

In Turkey I was given a copy of Pamuk’s novel ‘Museum of Innocence’ and whilst in Istanbul went to visit this museum as well. Before entering we thought an hour would be sufficient to look it over. It took almost three. I’m going to revisit the book since Pamuk has a knack of bending time.

Here’s a synopsis of the MoI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/books/orhan-pamuk-opens-museum-based-on-his-novel-in-istanbul.html?_r=0

One thing led to another since the novel and museum precipitated thinking about and exploring further possible relations between space, time and place (including objects). In brief, at this stage I’ve decided space = place x time (yes, it is an Ohm’s law analogy). Hence maybe, in an adaptation of PCT lingua franca, we each carve out perceptions from space by continuously adjusting slightly different events (objects/places) around a non-linear time-line (analog, not digital); because purposes are always mis-matched to actions and thus there is a requirement for an on-going negative feedback error-correcting loop. In this venture I’m grappling with bringing into co-existence: a. the spatial (parallel, simultaneous) associations occurring within a closed loop which, b. have analog but not necessarily digital or linear sequencing and, c. occur in some recognisable place (object and location).

Hence, possibly, the Fibonacci series is a sequence that is simultaneously spatial and can be put into place.

And, I did like the ‘skeleton key’ metaphor.

Kind regards

JohnK

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:09 AM, PHILIP JERAIR YERANOSIAN pyeranos@ucla.edu wrote:

[philip 8/24/14 10:49am]

I’m sure everyone knows that the golden number is aesthetically pleasing. Studies suggest that we invariably prefer a shape proportioned in this ratio. So, I’m curious about what you guys think about this number and perception. I am extremely hard pressed to find this number discussed in the context of control systems. But let me point out 3 important places you find this number:

  1. In the solar system among the spacing of various planets and moons.
  1. On the earth among the spacing of megalithic monuments (both in each individual monument as well as their spacing around the earth).
  1. In the anatomic physiology of all living control systems.

I mean, this number is basically the skeleton key of the universe. I think PCTists should have something to say about this.

[From Rick Marken (2014.08.25, 1530)]

···

john kirkland (2014 08 25 1132 NZT)–

JK: The Fibonocci Series is error free; it ‘is’ there, in space and re-discoverable.

RM: Well, since you are waxing philosophical I guess I can too. Your comment here led me to the rather startling realization that almost all of existence is error free. “Almost all” because error does exist, but only in that corner of existence occupied by control organizations.

RM: As far as science is concerned the universe is just there; it’s neither right nor wrong, correct or in error. As my son’s favorite philosopher, Homer Simpson, once said “It’s just a bunch of stuff that happens”. Only with the emergence of closed-loop negative feedback organizations of matter diderror (and correctness) come into existence. The reference in a negative feedback specifies the correct state of some variable aspect of existence. To the extent that that aspect of existence does not match the reference it is in the wrong state and there is an error. To the extent that that aspect of existence does match the reference it is in the correct state and there is no error.

RM: So before there were negative feedback control organizations of matter there was nothing right or wrong with the universe. The universe simply was. But with the emergence of negative feedback control organizations there was also the emergence of right and wrong. You could say, then, that the negative feedback control organization was the first organization of matter that was able (or was condemned) to tell right from wrong.

Best regards

Rick

If I may take a few moments let me try to describe some recent experiences and how these may, or may not, fit into my gradual appreciation and understanding of PCT. This is risky as I’m going out on a limb here. Nonetheless, as usual, comments and suggestions welcomed. For me these ideas are all quite embryonic, though I am sure others have been there already. Here goes –

In Turkey I was given a copy of Pamuk’s novel ‘Museum of Innocence’ and whilst in Istanbul went to visit this museum as well. Before entering we thought an hour would be sufficient to look it over. It took almost three. I’m going to revisit the book since Pamuk has a knack of bending time.

Here’s a synopsis of the MoI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/books/orhan-pamuk-opens-museum-based-on-his-novel-in-istanbul.html?_r=0

One thing led to another since the novel and museum precipitated thinking about and exploring further possible relations between space, time and place (including objects). In brief, at this stage I’ve decided space = place x time (yes, it is an Ohm’s law analogy). Hence maybe, in an adaptation of PCT lingua franca, we each carve out perceptions from space by continuously adjusting slightly different events (objects/places) around a non-linear time-line (analog, not digital); because purposes are always mis-matched to actions and thus there is a requirement for an on-going negative feedback error-correcting loop. In this venture I’m grappling with bringing into co-existence: a. the spatial (parallel, simultaneous) associations occurring within a closed loop which, b. have analog but not necessarily digital or linear sequencing and, c. occur in some recognisable place (object and location).

Hence, possibly, the Fibonacci series is a sequence that is simultaneously spatial and can be put into place.

And, I did like the ‘skeleton key’ metaphor.

Kind regards

JohnK


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

I really like that!

···

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2014.08.25, 1530)]


Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Psychological Sciences
Coupland I
University of Manchester
Oxford Road

Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk

Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589

Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406

See teamstrial.net for further information on our trial of CBT for Bipolar Disorders in NW England

The highly acclaimed therapy manual on A Transdiagnostic Approach to CBT using Method of Levels is available now.

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

john kirkland (2014 08 25 1132 NZT)–

JK: The Fibonocci Series is error free; it ‘is’ there, in space and re-discoverable.

RM: Well, since you are waxing philosophical I guess I can too. Your comment here led me to the rather startling realization that almost all of existence is error free. “Almost all” because error does exist, but only in that corner of existence occupied by control organizations.

RM: As far as science is concerned the universe is just there; it’s neither right nor wrong, correct or in error. As my son’s favorite philosopher, Homer Simpson, once said “It’s just a bunch of stuff that happens”. Only with the emergence of closed-loop negative feedback organizations of matter diderror (and correctness) come into existence. The reference in a negative feedback specifies the correct state of some variable aspect of existence. To the extent that that aspect of existence does not match the reference it is in the wrong state and there is an error. To the extent that that aspect of existence does match the reference it is in the correct state and there is no error.

RM: So before there were negative feedback control organizations of matter there was nothing right or wrong with the universe. The universe simply was. But with the emergence of negative feedback control organizations there was also the emergence of right and wrong. You could say, then, that the negative feedback control organization was the first organization of matter that was able (or was condemned) to tell right from wrong.

Best regards

Rick

If I may take a few moments let me try to describe some recent experiences and how these may, or may not, fit into my gradual appreciation and understanding of PCT. This is risky as I’m going out on a limb here. Nonetheless, as usual, comments and suggestions welcomed. For me these ideas are all quite embryonic, though I am sure others have been there already. Here goes –

In Turkey I was given a copy of Pamuk’s novel ‘Museum of Innocence’ and whilst in Istanbul went to visit this museum as well. Before entering we thought an hour would be sufficient to look it over. It took almost three. I’m going to revisit the book since Pamuk has a knack of bending time.

Here’s a synopsis of the MoI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/books/orhan-pamuk-opens-museum-based-on-his-novel-in-istanbul.html?_r=0

One thing led to another since the novel and museum precipitated thinking about and exploring further possible relations between space, time and place (including objects). In brief, at this stage I’ve decided space = place x time (yes, it is an Ohm’s law analogy). Hence maybe, in an adaptation of PCT lingua franca, we each carve out perceptions from space by continuously adjusting slightly different events (objects/places) around a non-linear time-line (analog, not digital); because purposes are always mis-matched to actions and thus there is a requirement for an on-going negative feedback error-correcting loop. In this venture I’m grappling with bringing into co-existence: a. the spatial (parallel, simultaneous) associations occurring within a closed loop which, b. have analog but not necessarily digital or linear sequencing and, c. occur in some recognisable place (object and location).

Hence, possibly, the Fibonacci series is a sequence that is simultaneously spatial and can be put into place.

And, I did like the ‘skeleton key’ metaphor.

Kind regards

JohnK

Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Chad Green (2014.08.27, 12:57 ET)]

Rick wrote: “But with the emergence of negative feedback control organizations there was also the emergence of right and wrong.� By negative feedback control
organizations are you referring to topological defects/solitons perchance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_defect
?

BTW, I’m unsure if my messages get through because of the lack of feedback from the listserv.

Best,

Chad

Chad T. Green, PMP

Program Analyst
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
Web: http://cmsweb1.loudoun.k12.va.us/page/1966

“The future is already here—it’s juust not very evenly distributed.â€? - William Gibson

On Behalf Of Richard Marken

···

[From Rick Marken (2014.08.25, 1530)]

john kirkland (2014 08 25 1132 NZT)–

JK: The Fibonocci Series is error free; it ‘is’ there, in space and re-discoverable.

RM: Well, since you are waxing philosophical I guess I can too. Your comment here led me to the rather startling realization that almost all of existence is error free. “Almost all” because error
does exist, but only in that corner of existence occupied by control organizations.

RM: As far as science is concerned the universe is just there ; it’s neither right nor wrong, correct or in error. As my son’s favorite philosopher, Homer Simpson, once said “It’s just a bunch of stuff that happens”. Only with the
emergence of closed-loop negative feedback organizations of matter diderror (and
correctness) come into existence. The reference in a negative feedback specifies the
correct state of some variable aspect of existence. To the extent that that aspect of existence does not match the reference it is in the
wrong state and there is an error. To the extent that that aspect of existence does match the reference it is in the correct state and there is no error.

RM: So before there were negative feedback control organizations of matter there was nothing right or wrong with the universe. The universe simply
was . But with the emergence of negative feedback control organizations there was also the emergence of right and wrong. You could say, then, that the negative feedback control organization was the first organization of matter that was able (or was condemned)
to tell right from wrong.

Best regards

Rick

If I may take a few moments let me try to describe some recent experiences and how these may, or may not, fit into my gradual appreciation and understanding of PCT. This is risky as I’m going out on a limb here. Nonetheless, as usual,
comments and suggestions welcomed. For me these ideas are all quite embryonic, though I am sure others have been there already. Here goes –

In Turkey I was given a copy of Pamuk’s novel ‘Museum of Innocence’ and whilst in Istanbul went to visit this museum as well. Before entering we thought an hour would be sufficient to look it over. It took
almost three. I’m going to revisit the book since Pamuk has a knack of bending time.

Here’s a synopsis of the MoI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/books/orhan-pamuk-opens-museum-based-on-his-novel-in-istanbul.html?_r=0

One thing led to another since the novel and museum precipitated thinking about and exploring further possible relations between space, time and place (including objects). In brief, at this stage I’ve decided space = place x time (yes, it is an Ohm’s law analogy).
Hence maybe, in an adaptation of PCT lingua franca, we each carve out perceptions from space by continuously adjusting slightly different events (objects/places) around a non-linear time-line (analog, not digital); because purposes are always mis-matched to
actions and thus there is a requirement for an on-going negative feedback error-correcting loop. In this venture I’m grappling with bringing into co-existence: a. the spatial (parallel, simultaneous) associations occurring within a closed loop which, b. have
analog but not necessarily digital or linear sequencing and, c. occur in some recognisable place (object and location).

Hence, possibly, the Fibonacci series is a sequence that is simultaneously spatial and can be put into place.

And, I did like the ‘skeleton key’ metaphor.

Kind regards

JohnK

Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.

Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Rick Marken (2014.08.27.1135)]

···

Chad Green (2014.08.27, 12:57 ET)

Â

CG: Rick wrote: “But with the emergence of negative feedback control organizations there was also the emergence of right and wrong.â€? By negative feedback control
organizations are you referring to topological defects/solitons perchance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_defect
?

RM: Well, since I can’t understand what in the world they are talking about in that article I guess I’d have to say “no”:wink:

RM: By negative feedback control organizations I just mean organizations of matter (molecules are probably the minimum components of this organization) that forms a circle of causality; and that in this circle the output of one causal component reduces (has a negative effect on) the tendency of the input to that component to cause that same output. In simple mathematical for, a negative feedback organization of matter is one where o = f(i) and i = -g(o). Since there is no explicit reference in such a simple organization the reference is implicitly zero. So if the system parameters result in a stable system, such a system will keep i = 0.Â

BestÂ

Rick

Â

Â

BTW, I’m unsure if my messages get through because of the lack of feedback from the listserv.

Â

Best,

Chad

Â

Chad T. Green, PMP

Program Analyst

Loudoun County Public Schools

21000 Education Court

Ashburn, VA 20148

Voice: 571-252-1486

Fax: 571-252-1575

Web: http://cmsweb1.loudoun.k12.va.us/page/1966

Â

“The future is already here—”it’s just not very evenly distributed.â€? - William Gibson


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of  Doing Research on Purpose
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble