The Immigration Problem

[From Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)]

I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problem” from a human behavior/PCT perspective.

It seems to me that current thinking about the problem is flawed. Two primary solutions are being advanced: build a wall (i.e., erect a barrier) and impose punitive measures (e.g., jail those who repeatedly cross our borders illegally). Neither seems to acknowledge that those illegal immigrants are controlling for getting into and presumably staying in the U.S.

From a PCT perspective it would seem to me that the aims ought to be one of getting those illegal immigrants to adopt a different goal or reference condition.

As it happens, most of them aren’t coming from Mexico but from Central America. (It seems Mexico has border problems of its own but as long as they’re just passing through it probably isn’t worth it for Mexico to do something about that.)

So how do we get those illegal immigrants to NOT want to come here and to want to stay where they are? That suggests doing something about the conditions under which they currently live. Hmm. How do we do that?

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

DISTANCE CONSULTING

“Assistance at a Distance”

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Be sure you measure what you want.

Be sure you want what you measure.

[From MK (2015.08.08.1430 CET)]

Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)--

I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problem�? from a human behavior/PCT
perspective.

M

I would take that a step deeper and imagine their goal is to live a peaceful life where they can get a decent job. I don’t know that “being in America” is really the ultimate goal, but they’ve come to associate being here with being able to attain their goals.

···

On Aug 8, 2015 6:12 AM, Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)]

Â

I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problemâ€? from a human behavior/PCT perspective.

Â

It seems to me that current thinking about the problem is flawed. Two primary solutions are being advanced: build a wall (i.e., erect a barrier) and impose punitive measures (e.g., jail those who repeatedly cross our borders illegally). Neither seems to acknowledge that those illegal immigrants are controlling for getting into and presumably staying in the U.S.

Â

From a PCT perspective it would seem to me that the aims ought to be one of getting those illegal immigrants to adopt a different goal or reference condition.

Â

As it happens, most of them aren’t coming from Mexico but from Central America. (It seems Mexico has border problems of its own but as long as they’re just passing through it probably isn’t worth it for Mexico to do something about that.)

Â

So how do we get those illegal immigrants to NOT want to come here and to want to stay where they are? That suggests doing something about the conditions under which they currently live. Hmm. How do we do that?

Â

Regards,

Â

Fred Nickols, CPT

DISTANCE CONSULTING

“Assistance at a Distanceâ€?

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Be sure you measure what you want.

Be sure you want what you measure.

Â

Â

Oops… I forgot to sign…
*barb

···

On Aug 8, 2015 6:12 AM, Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)]

Â

I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problemâ€? from a human behavior/PCT perspective.

Â

It seems to me that current thinking about the problem is flawed. Two primary solutions are being advanced: build a wall (i.e., erect a barrier) and impose punitive measures (e.g., jail those who repeatedly cross our borders illegally). Neither seems to acknowledge that those illegal immigrants are controlling for getting into and presumably staying in the U.S.

Â

From a PCT perspective it would seem to me that the aims ought to be one of getting those illegal immigrants to adopt a different goal or reference condition.

Â

As it happens, most of them aren’t coming from Mexico but from Central America. (It seems Mexico has border problems of its own but as long as they’re just passing through it probably isn’t worth it for Mexico to do something about that.)

Â

So how do we get those illegal immigrants to NOT want to come here and to want to stay where they are? That suggests doing something about the conditions under which they currently live. Hmm. How do we do that?

Â

Regards,

Â

Fred Nickols, CPT

DISTANCE CONSULTING

“Assistance at a Distanceâ€?

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Be sure you measure what you want.

Be sure you want what you measure.

Â

Â

[From Rick Marken (2015.08.08.0940)]

···

 Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)–

Â

FN: I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problemâ€? from a human behavior/PCT perspective.

Â

FN: It seems to me that current thinking about the problem is flawed. Two primary solutions are being advanced: build a wall (i.e., erect a barrier) and impose punitive measures (e.g., jail those who repeatedly cross our borders illegally). Neither seems to acknowledge that those illegal immigrants are controlling for getting into and presumably staying in the U.S.

Â

FN: From a PCT perspective it would seem to me that the aims ought to be one of getting those illegal immigrants to adopt a different goal or reference condition.

RM: The first thing I think of, from a PCT perspective, is “why is immigration a problem”? A problem implies that there is an error signal in the person that see it as a problem. Immigration is apparently a disturbance to a perception (or perceptions) that some people are controlling. I’m pretty sure that immigration is a problem for different people for different reasons. For example immigration is a problem for some people when it is done illegally; these people are controlling for people abiding by the law. For others immigration is a problem because they imagine that immigrants take jobs away from citizens; these people are controlling for seeing low unemployment numbers. For still others immigration is a problem because the immigrants are the wrong race or religion; these people are controlling for a homogeneous society. And I imagine that for many people are controlling for more than one of these perceptions so it is a problem for several reasons.Â

RM: So the “solution” to the immigration problem will be different for different people depending on what perceptions they are controlling. I think that’s why a policy solution is so difficult; one person’s solution will not be another person’s solution.Â

RM: Problems like this, that require solutions involving compromise, are the reason governments exist. There is no perfect governmental system – one that can always produce the perfect solution to problems – a solution that makes everyone happy. But some governmental systems work better than others.

RM: Governmental systems are human creations so some may work well for a while but eventually become dysfunctional when some humans act in ways that make it so (usually so that they can make things better for themselves without having to compromise with others). That’s what has happened in the US over the last couple decades, with the coup d’ grace being the passage of Citizen’s United (allowing very wealthy people to have a disproportionate influence on policy solutions), so I don’t see any solution to any of the problems that people have in this country – immigration  being the least of them, far more important being wage stagnation, income inequality, infrastructure degradation, climate change, universal healthcare to name a few –  being solved in the near future, if at all.Â

RM: The PCT “solution” to social problems is negotiation (based on facts) and compromise. It’s a solution that has been known (without PCT) for a long time. But very skillful, greedy control systems can always figure out ways to undo that solution, as they have successfully managed to do in the US. So really the ultimate problem is what it has always been – extremely skillful, greedy people. Which reminds me of one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes. In “Measure for Measure” Isabella tells the Duke who has taken over for the real Duke: 'Tis excellent to have a giant’s strength but it is tyrannous to use it as a giant". In less poetic PCT terms I read this as saying that it is excellent to be a highly skilled controller but it is bad for most everyone else to use that skill to overpower less skillful controllers.

BestÂ

Rick

Â

 As it happens, most of them aren’t coming from Mexico but from Central America. (It seems Mexico has border problems of its own but as long as they’re just passing through it probably isn’t worth it for Mexico to do something about that.)

Â

So how do we get those illegal immigrants to NOT want to come here and to want to stay where they are? That suggests doing something about the conditions under which they currently live. Hmm. How do we do that?

Â

Regards,

Â

Fred Nickols, CPT

DISTANCE CONSULTING

“Assistance at a Distanceâ€?

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Be sure you measure what you want.

Be sure you want what you measure.

Â

Â

Richard S. MarkenÂ

www.mindreadings.com
Author of  Doing Research on Purpose
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

I agree… thank you, Fred and Rick
*barb

···

On Aug 8, 2015 11:34 AM, Fred Nickols csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.1311)]

Â

Nice thought-provoking post, Rick. Thanks.

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Richard Marken (rsmarken@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) [mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu]
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:41 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: The Immigration Problem

Â

[From Rick Marken (2015.08.08.0940)]

Â

 Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)–

Â

FN: I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problem� from a human behavior/PCT perspective.

Â

FN: It seems to me that current thinking about the problem is flawed. Two primary solutions are being advanced: build a wall (i.e., erect a barrier) and impose punitive measures (e.g., jail those who repeatedly cross our borders illegally). Neither seems to acknowledge that those illegal immigrants are controlling for getting into and presumably staying in the U.S.

Â

FN: From a PCT perspective it would seem to me that the aims ought to be one of getting those illegal immigrants to adopt a different goal or reference condition.

Â

RM: The first thing I think of, from a PCT perspective, is “why is immigration a problem”? A problem implies that there is an error signal in the person that see it as a problem. Immigration is apparently a disturbance to a perception (or perceptions) that some people are controlling. I’m pretty sure that immigration is a problem for different people for different reasons. For example immigration is a problem for some people when it is done illegally; these people are controlling for people abiding by the law. For others immigration is a problem because they imagine that immigrants take jobs away from citizens; these people are controlling for seeing low unemployment numbers. For still others immigration is a problem because the immigrants are the wrong race or religion; these people are controlling for a homogeneous society. And I imagine that for many people are controlling for more than one of these perceptions so it is a problem for several reasons.Â

Â

RM: So the “solution” to the immigration problem will be different for different people depending on what perceptions they are controlling. I think that’s why a policy solution is so difficult; one person’s solution will not be another person’s solution.Â

Â

RM: Problems like this, that require solutions involving compromise, are the reason governments exist. There is no perfect governmental system – one that can always produce the perfect solution to problems – a solution that makes everyone happy. But some governmental systems work better than others.

Â

RM: Governmental systems are human creations so some may work well for a while but eventually become dysfunctional when some humans act in ways that make it so (usually so that they can make things better for themselves without having to compromise with others). That’s what has happened in the US over the last couple decades, with the coup d’ grace being the passage of Citizen’s United (allowing very wealthy people to have a disproportionate influence on policy solutions), so I don’t see any solution to any of the problems that people have in this country – immigration  being the least of them, far more important being wage stagnation, income inequality, infrastructure degradation, climate change, universal healthcare to name a few –  being solved in the near future, if at all.Â

Â

RM: The PCT “solution” to social problems is negotiation (based on facts) and compromise. It’s a solution that has been known (without PCT) for a long time. But very skillful, greedy control systems can always figure out ways to undo that solution, as they have successfully managed to do in the US. So really the ultimate problem is what it has always been – extremely skillful, greedy people. Which reminds me of one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes. In “Measure for Measure” Isabella tells the Duke who has taken over for the real Duke: 'Tis excellent to have a giant’s strength but it is tyrannous to use it as a giant". In less poetic PCT terms I read this as saying that it is excellent to be a highly skilled controller but it is bad for most everyone else to use that skill to overpower less skillful controllers.

Â

BestÂ

Â

Rick

Â

Â

 As it happens, most of them aren’t coming from Mexico but from Central America. (It seems Mexico has border problems of its own but as long as they’re just passing through it probably isn’t worth it for Mexico to do something about that.)

Â

So how do we get those illegal immigrants to NOT want to come here and to want to stay where they are? That suggests doing something about the conditions under which they currently live. Hmm. How do we do that?

Â

Regards,

Â

Fred Nickols, CPT

DISTANCE CONSULTING

“Assistance at a Distance�

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Be sure you measure what you want.

Be sure you want what you measure.

Â

Â

Â

Richard S. MarkenÂ

www.mindreadings.com
Author of  Doing Research on Purpose

Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.1311)]

Nice thought-provoking post, Rick. Thanks.

Fred Nickols

···

From: Richard Marken (rsmarken@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) [mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu]
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:41 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: The Immigration Problem

[From Rick Marken (2015.08.08.0940)]

Fred Nickols (2015.08.08.0746)–

FN: I’ve been thinking about “the immigration problem� from a human behavior/PCT perspective.

FN: It seems to me that current thinking about the problem is flawed. Two primary solutions are being advanced: build a wall (i.e., erect a barrier) and impose punitive measures (e.g., jail those who repeatedly cross our borders illegally). Neither seems to acknowledge that those illegal immigrants are controlling for getting into and presumably staying in the U.S.

FN: From a PCT perspective it would seem to me that the aims ought to be one of getting those illegal immigrants to adopt a different goal or reference condition.

RM: The first thing I think of, from a PCT perspective, is “why is immigration a problem”? A problem implies that there is an error signal in the person that see it as a problem. Immigration is apparently a disturbance to a perception (or perceptions) that some people are controlling. I’m pretty sure that immigration is a problem for different people for different reasons. For example immigration is a problem for some people when it is done illegally; these people are controlling for people abiding by the law. For others immigration is a problem because they imagine that immigrants take jobs away from citizens; these people are controlling for seeing low unemployment numbers. For still others immigration is a problem because the immigrants are the wrong race or religion; these people are controlling for a homogeneous society. And I imagine that for many people are controlling for more than one of these perceptions so it is a problem for several reasons.

RM: So the “solution” to the immigration problem will be different for different people depending on what perceptions they are controlling. I think that’s why a policy solution is so difficult; one person’s solution will not be another person’s solution.

RM: Problems like this, that require solutions involving compromise, are the reason governments exist. There is no perfect governmental system – one that can always produce the perfect solution to problems – a solution that makes everyone happy. But some governmental systems work better than others.

RM: Governmental systems are human creations so some may work well for a while but eventually become dysfunctional when some humans act in ways that make it so (usually so that they can make things better for themselves without having to compromise with others). That’s what has happened in the US over the last couple decades, with the coup d’ grace being the passage of Citizen’s United (allowing very wealthy people to have a disproportionate influence on policy solutions), so I don’t see any solution to any of the problems that people have in this country – immigration being the least of them, far more important being wage stagnation, income inequality, infrastructure degradation, climate change, universal healthcare to name a few – being solved in the near future, if at all.

RM: The PCT “solution” to social problems is negotiation (based on facts) and compromise. It’s a solution that has been known (without PCT) for a long time. But very skillful, greedy control systems can always figure out ways to undo that solution, as they have successfully managed to do in the US. So really the ultimate problem is what it has always been – extremely skillful, greedy people. Which reminds me of one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes. In “Measure for Measure” Isabella tells the Duke who has taken over for the real Duke: 'Tis excellent to have a giant’s strength but it is tyrannous to use it as a giant". In less poetic PCT terms I read this as saying that it is excellent to be a highly skilled controller but it is bad for most everyone else to use that skill to overpower less skillful controllers.

Best

Rick

As it happens, most of them aren’t coming from Mexico but from Central America. (It seems Mexico has border problems of its own but as long as they’re just passing through it probably isn’t worth it for Mexico to do something about that.)

So how do we get those illegal immigrants to NOT want to come here and to want to stay where they are? That suggests doing something about the conditions under which they currently live. Hmm. How do we do that?

Regards,

Fred Nickols, CPT

DISTANCE CONSULTING

“Assistance at a Distance�

The Knowledge Workers’ Tool Room

Be sure you measure what you want.

Be sure you want what you measure.

Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.

Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble