The intentions formerly known as goals

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1200)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1440)--

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1050)--

> Let me take a shot at an example entry on "goal" (pardon some plagiarism
> from your earlier posts):
>
> Goal: This idea is reasonably close to the idea of a reference signal...

I like Bill's slightly longer, but much clearer definition. To many
"undefined" words in this definition. Is a "perception" different from a
"perceptual variable"? What does "reasonably close" mean?, etc. Nice try. In
my opinion, clarity must rule over triteness in any lexicon explanation.

I couldn't agree more. Why don't you give a shot.

By the way, I use the term "perception" to refer to a particular state of a
perceptual variable. A "perceptual variable" is something like the "honesty"; a
perceived aspect of the world that varies from very high to very low.
"Reasonably close" was Bill's expression. I think it means that the meanings
(of reference signal and goal) would be perceived as being nearly identical by
a reasonable person.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1505)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1110)

The pleasure we get is presumably derived from the physiological
consequences of the error.

I find this claim quite remarkable. Can you point me to any evidence
that supports it?

These consequences are perceived as pleasurable because they
are interpreted in the context of a goal we look forward confidently to achieving.

I'm not sure how to model "the context of a goal we look forward
confidently to achieving." A diagram might help.

The

same error driven physiological consequences would be perceived as unpleasant if
interpreted in the context of a goal that we were not looking forward with confidence
to achieving.

Again, I'd be very interested in reading any evidence that supports this
claim.

The point is that the experience of emotion has both a physiological
component (driven by error) and a cognitive component (associated with the perceived
reason for the error). This is the PCT model of emotion (in a nutshell) as described in
LCS II.

It has always seemed to me to be more like hand waving than a model. As
far as I know there is no evidence to support the story and it makes no
testable predictions. If I'm wrong, I'm confident that you will set the
record straight.

I don't do these things myself, but that doesn't mean that you don't.

That's just silly.

There seems to be a lot of that going around.

Many people would say that they don't control their perceptions
either. Would you take that as evidence that behavior is the control of perception, but
only for people who think they control perceptions?

What do you think?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1509)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1150)

I bet you can do better than that. Emotions and feelings are not part of the
PCT model, by the way. They are phenomena that are explained by the model.

You're just a fountain of remarkable claims today. Exactly how does the
PCT model (not you and Bill, but the model) 'explain' emotions and feelings?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1456) ]

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1150)]

> Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1400)--
>
> What is a "single perceptual variable"? I think we run into the same

problem

> here that we did with
> "goal".

I don't think so. A single perceptual variable is defined in the model as

p =

f(v1, v2...vn). That is, it's a scalar signal that is a function of some

set of

physical variables, v1, v2...vn) in the external environment.

Sorry Rick, Please give me a real world example of what you mean. When you
say "set", to me, that indicates more then one perceptual signal. If it's
more then one, then we do run into the same problem we faced with goal and
reference condition.

It sounds like we would be doing all the helping.

He has the data. 30 years worth. 5,000 data points. Where are you going to
come up with this kind of stuff.

> Some form and, or type of Imaginings, probably with emotions, and or
> feelings tied in.

I bet you can do better than that. Emotions and feelings are not part of

the

PCT model, by the way.

I didn't say they were. That is why I said "tied in". If you don't think
that emotions and/or feelings are tied into the imaginings "hopes" and
"aspirations" people have then we are not viewing the same model of human
nature.

They are phenomena that are explained by the model.

Then by all means explain them. I'm clueless. What is a "belief"? What is an
"inference"? Please elaborate?

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1511)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1200)

By the way, I use the term "perception" to refer to a particular state of a
perceptual variable. A "perceptual variable" is something like the "honesty"; a
perceived aspect of the world that varies from very high to very low.

Might I suggest a few candidates? How about 'arrogance' and
'closed-mindedness'?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1310 MdT)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1130)--

> Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1010)--

>
> > I don't know what "confronting the difficulties people have
translating higher
> > level goals into reference levels" means but it has certainly never
been a topic
> > of any importance to me.

...

Because it makes no sense to me. One way to make sense of it is to assume
that it's
about translating higher level goals into references (for lower level
perceptions).

Try this: it's about the problem of translating loose verbally stated goals
like "I want to lose weight" into actual perceptual and reference signals
concerning sensed weight, and then of finding lower-level actions that will
affect that the corresponding perceptual signals. Example: while hanging
onto the railing and panting after climbing one flight of steps, realizing
that _this_ is what the word "overweight" means.

Rick, I'm getting a strong sense of foot-dragging from you, as though
you're perfectly satisfied with everything the way it is and are resisting
any suggestion that something new might be added -- even peripherally.
What's the problem?

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1220)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1456)

> Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1150)--
>
> > Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1400)--
> >
> > What is a "single perceptual variable"? I think we run into the same
> >problem here that we did with "goal".

> I don't think so. A single perceptual variable is defined in the model as
>p = f(v1, v2...vn). That is, it's a scalar signal that is a function of some

> set of physical variables, v1, v2...vn) in the external environment.

Sorry Rick, Please give me a real world example of what you mean.

Sure. The color perception (p) carried by a neural signal in the optic nerve is
presumably a function of the intensity of two (according to Land ) or three
(Young-Newton) wavelengths of light (v1, v2, v3). One perceptual (color) signal
as a function of at least two environmental variables. This is all described
very nicely in B:CP.

> > Some form and, or type of Imaginings, probably with emotions, and or
> > feelings tied in.
>
> I bet you can do better than that. Emotions and feelings are not part of
> the PCT model, by the way.

I didn't say they were. That is why I said "tied in". If you don't think
that emotions and/or feelings are tied into the imaginings "hopes" and
"aspirations" people have then we are not viewing the same model of human
nature.

Never mind.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1310)]

Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1310 MdT)--

Rick, I'm getting a strong sense of foot-dragging from you, as though
you're perfectly satisfied with everything the way it is and are resisting
any suggestion that something new might be added -- even peripherally.
What's the problem?

Well, for one thing Linda's out of town so I have nothing to do but sit here
and try to avoid writing a paper.

I'm certainly not satisfied with everything the way it is. But I haven't seen
anything that looks like a particularly interesting suggestion regarding
something new that might be added, even peripherally. What I see are vague
statements about behavior using some PCT terminology being thrown out as
important new observations that are not handled by PCT. I would love to hear
suggestions about new things to be added to PCT if they were clearly based on
an understanding of the "old" things PCT already has.

What my problem might be is that I don't think it's useful to go out of one's
way to find sense in what looks like nonsense. I think it leads people to
think that they understand PCT better than they do. I think you do it to be
nice but I think it's not being nice in the long run. I think it's like being
nice to an algebra student by finding merit in their confused answers.

I'm impressed by your ability to find interesting meaning in even the most
confusing statements. You certainly have brought to light things that might
need to be added to the model (like how loose verbally stated goals
can be translated into actual perceptual and reference signals) or things
that unexpectedly derive from the model (like noticing that asking "What are
you doing" requires going up a level for an answer). I just think it's
important not to give students the impression that they understand something
unless the teacher is convinced that they really do understand it. I don't
think it's fair to the students. I think your strategy leads to students who
like you better. I think my strategy leads to better students.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1415 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1200)--

"Reasonably close" was Bill's expression. I think it means that the meanings
(of reference signal and goal) would be perceived as being nearly identical by
a reasonable person.

It's true that reference signal can be taken to correspond to goal. But
goal does not correspond to reference signal, since goals (in the common
parlance) refer to things that can only be sets of reference signals. If a
goal means one or more reference signals, then a single reference signal
(if that's all that exists) is a goal. But a single reference signal can't
be a set of reference signals, so this works only one way.

Goal and reference signal mean the same thing only if you reject the common
meaning of goal entirely. In that case there's nothing to translate.

Best,

Bill P.

Best,

Bill P.

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1545) ]

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1220)]

Sure. The color perception (p) carried by a neural signal in the optic

nerve is

presumably a function of the intensity of two (according to Land ) or

three

(Young-Newton) wavelengths of light (v1, v2, v3). One perceptual (color)

signal

as a function of at least two environmental variables. This is all

described

very nicely in B:CP.

Here's my problem. We have many perceptions, and some perceptual signals
might be parts of many different perceptions. Does a reference condition
deal with a _single_ perceptual signal or a set of perceptual signals ( a
perception ) in the PCT model? In your example above, Is a perceptual signal
each wavelength?, and the perception the intensity of the two? That is how I
understand it. Am I correct ? If I am correct, let's go to your oufielder
catching demo. The "goal" of the outfielder is to "catch" the ball (i.e. not
to let the ball hit the ground, and to hold it any manner or a few seconds )
In reaching this goal he/she must watch the ball, move arms, hands, and
fingers to actually catch it, and move his/her calfs, thighs, ankles, and
feet in order to put himself in a position to catch the ball. Once arriving
at the intended location,he/she must balance themselves to make the catch.
All of this involves god know how many control processes. How many different
perceptions are involved here? How many different perceptual signals are
involved here? How much imagination is used? So yes, your model is as it
should be, nice, simple, and accurate. The problem is in trying to
understand how all these simple control processes work ( or don't work )
together in the real world and become very complex and entwined. It is not
satisfactory to me to simply extrapolate from a single control process, to
all of human nature. The key in any understanding of Human nature lies in
HPCT. But to think it's all been done already in your spreadsheet model is
arrogant, self defeating, and just plain inaccurate as far as I'm concerned.
To think that some ideas could not contribute to HPCT because the people who
came up with those ideas knew nothng of PCT/HPCT is absurd. N. Weiner did a
good job of that

Never mind.

C'mon Rick. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and jump on in. The waters fine.
No sharks present.

Marc

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1421 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1505) --

Why be contrary -- just to keep the Rick's pot boiling?

Have you ever begun a project about which you felt excited and confident?
Starting any new project means that whatever error there is -- that is,
whatever the remaining difference is between where you are and where you
hope to end up -- is producing whatever action you're carrying out. Maybe
for one of those 75-mile errors you simply turn the gain down to keep from
trying ridiculously hard, or maybe the errors are kept from getting very
large by the sense of progress toward the goal (that's called rate
feedback). But whatever the case, if there were no error signal you would
not be striving toward the goal.

With error signals come action and preparation for action. You feel a
heightened sense of physiological readiness.Maybe your heart beats a little
faster, your blood vessels constrict, your breathing quickens, your pupils
dilate, your blood glucose level rises. These are familiar feelings,
because you feel them during practically any situation of heightened
preparation for action -- being afraid, being angry, being horrified, being
in love, being exhilarated, everything but being depressed. In the context
of starting a new project that you really like doing, these feelings are
taken as positive -- you say you're enjoying the effort, or are excited at
the prospects, or are feeling optimistic.

This is the "good" feeling I've been trying to describe. It's not anything
as stupid as saying that I like errors. Remember, "error" does not mean
mistake. Presence of an error signal doesn't even mean that there's
anything wrong. Error signals are what make actions occur. They are
_motivations_. They are _drives_. They go with ambition, striving, wanting,
trying. They keep perceptions close to their reference levels by causing
the necessary output (the pedaling that keeps you breezing along). Errors
become problems only when they are very large and stay very large, meaning
that the perception you're trying to control is staying far from its
reference level.

What is a "large" error? In a tracking experiment it's a difference between
target and cursor positions that is frequently as large as 10% of the range
of movement of the target. When the disturbance is made large and fast
enough to make a subject's tracking error average 10% RMS, subjects say
they are losing control, they can't do it, it's too hard. And they are
still correcting 90 percent of the effects of disturbances! A minute of
tracking under conditions that create 10% error RMS is exhausting. And all
you're doing is moving a mouse through a range of 5 or 6 inches.

When Marc Abrams gets his stress esperiment going, I trust that one of the
experiments will involve using different degrees of difficulty, tailored to
produce known amounts of tracking error in each individual subject, like
1%, 2%. 5%, 10%, and 20%, If the indicators of stress are functions of
error in a control task, this should demonstrate the effect. For
comparison, of course, you would want to devise some simple task like
waving a fan that takes just as much physical effort to produce but doesn't
involve a tracking error signal.

I think it might also be informative to provide a really nice reward, like
$20, for selecting the option of learning to do something relatively
simple. When the person indicates he would like to try it, there should be
"signs of stress" (that is, preparation for action) even before the task is
started. And if asked, the subject might possibly indicate some sort of
positive feeling.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1505 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1509) --\

You're just a fountain of remarkable claims today. Exactly how does the
PCT model (not you and Bill, but the model) 'explain' emotions and feelings?

And you're a pile of nits freshly picked. Jeez.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1420)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1545)--

Here's my problem. We have many perceptions, and some perceptual signals
might be parts of many different perceptions.

Each perception we have corresponds to the state of a perceptual signal. Most
perceptual signals are functions of other perceptual signals. You have to
understand what p = f(v1, v2...v3) means in order to understand PCT.

Does a reference condition
deal with a _single_ perceptual signal or a set of perceptual signals ( a
perception ) in the PCT model?

A single reference condition (state of a reference signal) always specifies the
state of a single perceptual signal.

In your example above, Is a perceptual signal
each wavelength?, and the perception the intensity of the two?

No. The perceptual signal is weighted sum of the wavelength intensities. That
signal corresponds to the perception of color.

That is how I understand it. Am I correct ?

No.

It is not
satisfactory to me to simply extrapolate from a single control process, to
all of human nature.

I think you should definitely learn how a single control process works before
you consider extrapolating to all of human nature.

The key in any understanding of Human nature lies in
HPCT. But to think it's all been done already in your spreadsheet model is
arrogant, self defeating, and just plain inaccurate as far as I'm concerned.

Well, then I guess it's a good thing I don't think it's all been done already
in my spreadsheet model.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1519 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1310) --
\
\Well, for one thing Linda's out of town so I have nothing to do but sit here

and try to avoid writing a paper.

I'm certainly not satisfied with everything the way it is.

...

[But] What I see are vague
statements about behavior using some PCT terminology being thrown out as
important new observations that are not handled by PCT.

Did Linda take your glasses with her? The conversation has not been about
important new observations that are not handled by PCT. It's been about how
to provide a translation from ordinary terms into PCT terms, for teaching
purposes. Nothing new is being added. We're just trying to define some
words. Call Linda and ask where she hid them.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1736)]

Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1505 MDT)

Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1509) --\

You're just a fountain of remarkable claims today. Exactly how does the
PCT model (not you and Bill, but the model) 'explain' emotions and
feelings?

And you're a pile of nits freshly picked. Jeez.

I may well be mistaken, but this is how I see it. PCT is a model
(defined by the a set of equations) that describes purposeful behavior.
As far as I know, PCT contains no comparable set of equations that
describes:

1. Memory
2. Emotion
3. Imagination
4. Cognition

There are stories about how each of these might someday be incorporated
into a more encompassing model based on PCT. These stories are more or
less persuasive. They are not, however, models and as such lack
predictive power or the capacity to be rigorously tested.

Is my understanding flawed?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.17250)

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1420)]

> Does a reference condition
> deal with a _single_ perceptual signal or a set of perceptual signals

( a

> perception ) in the PCT model?

A single reference condition (state of a reference signal) always

specifies the

state of a single perceptual signal.

> In your example above, Is a perceptual signal
> each wavelength?, and the perception the intensity of the two?

No. The perceptual signal is weighted sum of the wavelength intensities.

That

signal corresponds to the perception of color.

This makes no sense to me. A perception of what color?, To a single color?
when we "see" something is each color a different perception or a different
perceptual signal? or are they one in the same? How many different
perceptions, or perceptual siganls are involved in my "seeing" a rainbow?
Careful Rick, this might be a trick question.

I think you should definitely learn how a single control process works

before

you consider extrapolating to all of human nature.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind and pass it on to others who
might need it.

Well, then I guess it's a good thing I don't think it's all been done

already

in my spreadsheet model.

yes it is. See we do agree on something.

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1739)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.17250)

Welcome back to the Eastern seaboard!

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1500)]

Bill Powers (2003.05.25.1519 MDT)

Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1310) --

>[But] What I see are vague
>statements about behavior using some PCT terminology being thrown out as
>important new observations that are not handled by PCT.

Did Linda take your glasses with her?

No. But she did take my heart;-)

The conversation has not been about
important new observations that are not handled by PCT. It's been about how
to provide a translation from ordinary terms into PCT terms, for teaching
purposes.

There I go again. I thought we were talking about this statement by Bruce G.

I understand that [Argyris] has devoted some time to confronting the

difficulties

people have translating higher level goals into reference levels for higher

level

control systems. This is topic of great importance to some people and one

that

HPCT has had relatively little to say about

Through the glasses Linda left me, it looks to me like Bruce G. is saying that "
confronting the difficulties people have translating higher level goals into
reference levels for higher level control systems" is an observation not handled
by PCT . If I take off my glasses I can't see anything (which is closer to my
experience of what, besides rancor, Bruce G. typically has to contribute these
discussions). But I can't seem to make out the part where Bruce is asking for
(or providing) a translation from ordinary terms into PCT.

Did you meant "glasses" or "acid"?

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Rick Marken (2003.05.25.1505)]

Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.17250)--

> No. The perceptual signal is weighted sum of the wavelength intensities.
> That signal corresponds to the perception of color.

This makes no sense to me.

Try Ch. 8 in B:CP.

A perception of what color?

Depends on the wavelengths.

To a single color?

For a fixed set of wavelengths, yes.

when we "see" something is each color a different perception or a different
perceptual signal? or are they one in the same?

Perceptual signals are the same as perceptions. Each perception corresponds,
in theory, to a separate perceptual signal.

How many different
perceptions, or perceptual siganls are involved in my "seeing" a rainbow?

Lot's. There are the color sensations, the curved bow configurations and the
overall rainbow event.

Careful Rick, this might be a trick question.

How did I do?

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

from [ Marc Abrams (2003.05.25.1804) ]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0525.1739)]

Welcome back to the Eastern seaboard!

I just got beamed back by Scottie.

Marc