The Level of Fear

CSGnet Archive CSG1999
1

[From Kenny Kitzke (990826.1000EDT)]

In my search for the Twelfth Level, I have decided to focus on fear
initially. I suspect every adult human has experienced what we call "fear."
I suspect that every human has had to deal with and try to eliminate fear by
behaving to reduce the error it generates.

So, I want to understand this variable we experience (perceive) as fear.
And, I want to be clear about what level in the hierarchy this variable
exists as a reference perception. Is there anyone out there that is willing
to help me progress in this understanding? I would appreciate some help.

Here are some starter questions for understanding the HPCT model of human
behavior?

1) Is fear an actual perceptual variable signal we can control; or is it
really a name for a certain type of error for some comparison?

2) Is fear something that is solely physiological and sensed at the lower
levels only? Or, is fear something we create in our mind at a higher level
based on sensed perceptions?

3) Can two identical environmental inputs produce great fear in one human and
absolutely none in another? What accounts for this?

4) Is the reference perception for fear a continuous or discreet variable?
Could fear even be an intrinsic variable, at least at some amplitude where it
could trigger reorganization?

5) Can fear be created by internal imagination within the mind; without any
environmental input? At what level of the hierarchy does this suggest that
fear resides?

6) When we look down on our fears to try to understand how they feel to us,
from what level of the hierarchy are we looking down? What type of
perception is clearly higher than fear?

7) Can fear disappear without any reorganization? Can reorganization also
eliminate fear when it persists from the lower levels despite all our
intentions and behavior to control it?

Thanks,

Kenny

2

[From Bruce Gregory (990826.1203 EDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (990826.1000EDT)

1) Is fear an actual perceptual variable signal we can
control; or is it
really a name for a certain type of error for some comparison?

I suspect it is the way we experience particular types of error.

2) Is fear something that is solely physiological and sensed
at the lower
levels only?

Fear is experienced. It is not obvious that it is a controlled variable.
To a certain extent many people enjoy fear as long as they feel that
their ability to exercise control is not threatened--horror movies,
carnival rides.

Or, is fear something we create in our mind at

a higher level
based on sensed perceptions?

3) Can two identical environmental inputs produce great fear
in one human and
absolutely none in another?

Yes. Fear of flying is a good example. Some people are terrified of
flying, others enjoy it.

What accounts for this?

It seems to be associated with lack of control associated with survival.
Certain individuals experience this lack of control more acutely than
others. This probably has to do with the organization of individual
hierarchies and different reference levels for intrinsic variables. Some
people are more fearful than others, just as some people are more easily
bored than others.

4) Is the reference perception for fear a continuous or
discreet variable?

I doubt that fear is a controlled variable.

Could fear even be an intrinsic variable, at least at some
amplitude where it
could trigger reorganization?

Fear seems to be a signal. It is often linked to action, but it may make
reorganization _less_ likely. It is difficult to learn to fly if you are
afraid of being in the air.

5) Can fear be created by internal imagination within the
mind; without any
environmental input?

Yes. Recalling a frightening experience is frequently accompanied by
fear.

At what level of the hierarchy does
this suggest that
fear resides?

I doubt it is a controlled perception.

6) When we look down on our fears to try to understand how
they feel to us,
from what level of the hierarchy are we looking down? What type of
perception is clearly higher than fear?

Again, probably not a controlled perception.

7) Can fear disappear without any reorganization?

Definitely. When the plane lands and the person is in the terminal fear
normally disappears.

Can
reorganization also
eliminate fear when it persists from the lower levels despite all our
intentions and behavior to control it?

Yes, since reorganization can lead to improved control and therefore to
less error.

3

[From Rick Marken (990826.1230)]

Kenny Kitzke (990826.1000EDT)

Here are some starter questions for understanding the HPCT model
of human behavior?

1) Is fear an actual perceptual variable signal we can control...

Most of these questions are answered in Bill's essay on "Emotions"
in LCS II. I think it would be best if you tried to answer these
questions yourself on the net, based on your understanding of
the PCT model. Then, if others who understand the PCT model
disagree with your answers, you can try to iron out your differences.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

4

[From Rick Marken (990826.1820)]

Bruce Gregory (990826.1203 EDT) --

I think your answers to Kenny's question about fear were
really excellent!

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

5

[From Bruce Gregory (990827.0600 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990826.1820)

Bruce Gregory (990826.1203 EDT) --

I think your answers to Kenny's question about fear were
really excellent!

High praise, indeed. And much appreciated.

Bruce Gregory

6

[From Kenny Kitzke (990827.1030EDT)]

<Rick Marken (990826.1230)>

<Most of these questions are answered in Bill's essay on "Emotions"
in LCS II. I think it would be best if you tried to answer these
questions yourself on the net, based on your understanding of
the PCT model. Then, if others who understand the PCT model
disagree with your answers, you can try to iron out your differences.>

Thanks for the tip. If Bill has already answered how HPCT accounts for fear
in human beings, I will be happy to study it before commenting. I have no
knowledge of how the HPCT model accounts for fear, that is why I asked the
questions. It did not ring a bell in B: CP or MSOB, nor do I see emotions or
fear in the Index of B:CP and unfortunately, there is not an Index in MSOB.

I'll be happy to comment on what the creator of the HPCT model has to say
about fear and emotions and how they work in observed or internal behavior
while performing perceptual control. I wish I had bought the book at the
conference.

I just looked up "emotion" in Introduction to Modern Psychology and find a
comment on Page 197. Apparently, emotions are a class of psychological
problems most closely associated with error conditions *rather than reference
perceptions*. I sort of expected that assumption.

I see that people who find it hard to know their own emotional *feelings*
often develop psychosomatic diseases. This is an amazing observation.
Further the greater the emotion felt, the greater the error signal. This
excessive error triggers the reorganization process and directs attention to
the control systems having the error. Huh? I thought reorganization only
occurs when intrinsic variables are not controlled. Are emotions like fear
intrinsic variables in humans?

It would seem that is what a higher level of perception does to the lower
levels reference conditions which we call control is sort of a reorganization
too? Can't the higher level control loop change the reference perceptions
below and make the error go away with no observed change in behavior? Isn't
that what happens most of the time rather than reorganization?

Do people really have a hard time *knowing* (perceiving) their emotional
feelings or just a hard time talking about them to therapists? I think there
is some links here to the need for a guide in MOL.

"People who do not experience feelings [such as joy, sadness, etc.,] are hard
to help. I agree. I think such people are dead. "In that feelings are
perceptions of body states," Why is this required? Or do body states include
states of mind with no bodily incurred sensations? "Moods are definable as
perceptions of body states which are not a function of any specific error
signals." What then in the HPCT model defines moods?

Perhaps Dick Robertson can tell me if there is a valuable expansion in LCS II
on how emotions like fear, or moods like feeling lazy, are part of HPCT and
the role they play in behavior, before I spend the time and money on it to
find out it is more speculation than science?

Further, Dick, if you are there, do have other references I could access to
better understand these parts of human behavior? BTW, I finished 14th out of
16 in my tennis league this year-the worst finish ever. Since the last two
finishers are demoted to a lower Division, it was a high level perception
(perhaps an emotion) at high gain that helped me come back from 1-7 and 3-7
deficits to win both in a tiebreaker at 10-9; despite the physiological
diabetes drain in energy! Its all PCT but may or may not be HPCT. :sunglasses: In
any event, it is fascinating trying to understand these things we call
humans. Thanks again Dick for the ride to Seattle and the nice time with you
and your wife.

Kenny

7

[From Bruce Gregory (990827.1142 EDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (990827.1030EDT)

Are emotions like fear intrinsic variables in humans?

Yes.

It would seem that is what a higher level of perception does to the lower
levels reference conditions which we call control is sort of a
reorganization
too? Can't the higher level control loop change the reference perceptions
below and make the error go away with no observed change in
behavior? Isn't
that what happens most of the time rather than reorganization?

Try holding your breath. You will discover how effective the higher order
system is in maintaining a reference for "no breathing". Higher order loops
do change the reference levels of lower level systems, but this often
reveals itself in behavior rather than the lack of behavior.

Perhaps Dick Robertson can tell me if there is a valuable
expansion in LCS II
on how emotions like fear, or moods like feeling lazy, are part
of HPCT and
the role they play in behavior, before I spend the time and money on it to
find out it is more speculation than science?

This question suggests that you may be posting to the wrong list. Perhaps
you can find a more appropriate place to spend your time and money. Lots of
research has been done on emotions, very little of it is relevant to HPCT.
On the other hand, you could conduct relevant research and contribute to the
model.

Bruce Gregory

8

[From Rick Marken (990827.1250)]

Kenny Kitzke (990827.1030EDT)--

I'll be happy to comment on what the creator of the HPCT model has
to say about fear and emotions and how they work in observed or
internal behavior while performing perceptual control. I wish I
had bought the book at the conference.

Order a copy of LCS II _today_ from Benchmark:

http://www.benchpress.com/orders2.htm

I think you'll find that the "Emotions" chapter answers all your
questions about fear (well, those that aren't already answered
by the Bible or the Starr report;-))

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken