Iâm a beginner in learning and understanding PCT and MOL. Iâm currently reading âPrinciples-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy, a method of levels approachâ. Iâm currently reading chapter 8 and there popping up lots of questions. Iâm gonna try to ask them as clear as possible (Iâm not a native English speaker):
Can behavior be seen as a manner to contol your perceptual input? I understand that itâs not the behavior you (try to) control, but your perception. You need your perception to be a certain way and as I understand (but I can be really wrong) by doing certain things (like heating up your cup of tea because you want a warm cup of tea) you change the perception how it is right now to what you want it to be.
Is the definition of perception according to PCT the same as the definition according to the dutch dictionary: an observation that involves interpretation, selection and organization of sensory information? And thereby an individual, subjective thing (because you are the one interpreting, selecting and organizing the sensory information).
Can the question âwhat do you control?â depends on how you see control? According to PCT you donât control your behavioral output, you control your perceptual input. But isnât doing something to get your perception to a certain way also a kind of lower level control? You do something you think/hope changes what is to what you want it to be.
Here are some preliminary answers to your questions. However, I am sure that other experienced PCTers can do even better.
Regarding âcan behavior be seen as a manner to control your perceptual inputâ, the statement that behavior is a consequence of control of perception (this being one I like) seems to capture the idea that behavior is just a part of the control processes that are occurring. In other words, behavior is not a technique or manner that stands alone by itself when controlling perceptual input.
The PCT definition of perception is different from the Dutch dictionary definition. William Powers defined perception neurologically as âA perceptual signal (inside a system) that is a continuous analog of a state of affairs outside the systemâ in Behavior: The Control of Perception, 2005, p. 299). The Dutch definition is a higher-level descriptive abstraction rather than the PCT view based on neural signaling.
My only thought concerning your question âwhat do you controlâ is that you seem to be focusing on conscious thought, whereas nearly all of what we do (99 percent?) is done non-consciously and âautomaticallyâ based on the structure, organization, and functioning of our nervous systems at that particular time.
With Regards and a Warm Welcome to the Wonderful World of PCT!
Thank you for helping me understand PCT a bit more!
I just started the book âBehavior: The control of perceptionâ, so hopefully it will become more clear to me how I must understand PCT.
I just online translated the definfition of perception according to Powers, but I canât comprehend it yet. I find PCT quit abstract and comprehend abstract things is not my forte.
Yes, we use our actions as means of controlling our perceptions. Two caveats: 1. Not all actions are purposeful, e.g. tremors. A cat accidentally falling from a tree limb twists and turns in the air, winding its tail as a counterweight, with the purpose of landing on its feet, but the ballistic falling itself is not purposeful (I said it was accidental). 2. Not all outputs of control loops are perceived by others as actions (e.g. endocrine secretions).
Yes, ut thereâs more to say. Yes, your perceptions are private. Nobody else has direct access to your perceptions.
When we talk about perceptions, we generally are referring to what we experience subjectively. Perceptual signals are posited by PCT, where the T as you know stands for âtheoryâ. Some neuroscience research has demonstrated that this theoretical variable, âperceptual signalâ, corresponds to rates of firing in neurons, regulated by synapses, and some neuroscience research has demonstrated that a change in a rate of firing in a personâs nervous system corresponds to a change in their subjectively experienced perception. So these three things co-vary, and might even be thought of as aspects of the same phenomenon. But there are times when it is important to be clear which of the three we are talking about.
The âinterpretation, selection and organization of sensory informationâ is done by perceptual input functions that synapse input signals together to create a higher-level signal from them. The word âinterpretationâ suggests a process of cogitation and judgement that does not apply; itâs an automatic result, once the perceptual input function comes into existence.
I donât understand why you begin the second part of this with âbutâ plus a question mark. I would begin it with âandâ plus a periodâŚwell, with a bit of rephrasing. âdoing something to get your perception to a certain way [is accomplished by setting reference values for] lower level control.â The setting of reference values on the output side is just as automatic as the combining of perceptual signals on the input side. Copies of the error signal branch to the reference input functions of plural comparators at the next level down. For each comparator, the strength of the reference input specifies how much of that perception is desired.
Translating this PCT model way of talking into subjective experience is illuminating, but can also get confused or confusing.
Happy reading of Behavior: The Control of Perception, sometimes abbreviated by PCTers as BCP or B:CP. As you will see reading the book, on pages 34 and 35, the author (âBillâ Powers) clarifies the meaning of the abstract definition of perception that he gives on page 299.
For example, he writes, âWhen I refer to perception, I mean in general the entire series of events, following stimulation, that occurs in the input part of the brain, all the way from sensory receptors to the highest centers in the cerebral cortexâ (p. 34 of the 2005 edition) and âA âperceptionâ means a neural current in a single fiber or bundle of redundant fibers which has a magnitude that is related to the magnitudes of some set of primary sensory-nerve stimulationsâ (p. 35) â such stimulations being due to things such as light that stimulate sensory neurons in the eye, sound/air pressure waves that stimulate neurons in the ear, molecules in food and air that stimulate taste and smell neurons in the tongue and nose, âŚ
Anyhow, happy reading! And if you have more questions that arise concerning PCT, feel free to post them on this discourse site.
Just a thought. If you find Behavior: The Control of Perception a bit abstract, you might have a look at Your Behavior: Understanding and Changing the Things You Do. It is aimed at a genral audience, both lay and professional.
Thank you Bruce! Thatâs nice to hear, cause I find it quit abstract. It probably also got to do with it being all in English. Iâm quit okay with reading English, but if itâs about more abstract things, it gets way harder. And then Iâm not sure if I understand it or not.
Alsof thanks for your answers and explenation. I think Iâm getting the hang of it a bit more now.
I do understand that most we do is unconscious, so a lot of the perceptions we try to control, we control in an unconscious way. Hence the random reorganization when there is conflict, we donât control it, it kind of happens.
Itâs really fun and nice being able to communicate about PCT this way, getting to know from the people who know PCT from the inside out.
So thanks for having me here!
PCT tries to avoid abstractions, but aspects of PCT are challenging to understand in a way that is similar to how abstractions are hard to understand.
One is that it refers to things that we canât ordinarily look at, touch, and manipulate. very few of us have direct experience with neurons, synapses, and rates of firing.
A theory seems abstract until you have some ordinary experience that the theory explains. When you are simultaneously controlling the familiar perceptions of the ordinary experience and the less familiar perceptions of the theory, and how the latter explains the former, then the theory no longer seems so abstract.
This is the reason for practicing with the many demonstrations that are provided. That way you will come to understand PCT better than by just reading.
Hi Mara,
I agree with Bruce here. Contrary to other theories Iâve tried to grasp before (e.g. stimulus-response theory, relational frame theory, dual process theory, cognitive theory etc) the joy of learning PCT is that it applies to every experience you have. This will allow you to build your knowledge from the bottom up.
I remember when I started learning about PCT, I was driving my car in a constantly elated mood, finding out all these ways that we control. Finding the right road, how road signs work, getting angry at other drivers or myself, getting lost and feeling confused. Finding my way and regaining control. Speeding and slowing down. Conflicts between speed and safety.
Iâm no longer this aware of PCT in my daily activities, itâs no longer sparkly and new. But itâs everywhere, still. Typing. Getting work done. Supervising students :-).
Iâm sure that behavior canât be seen in a manner to âcontrol your perceptionâ although many members will not agree. As they donât show evidences for how behavior can control perception Iâll just direct you to diagram in LCS III (2008) where itâs obviously that behavior is result of control of perception (in comparator) and is used only for producing effects to imediate environment, so it doesnât control anything. Otherwise itâs mantra in PCT that output (behavior) is not controlled.
We could see many answers of personal experiences with using PCT, but I think that Fredâs suggestion that you should read personaly Powers and his thoughts about PCT is the best way that youâll understand PCT in itâs original form.
Every oppinion is somehow subjective as we can see also in PCT understanding of human brain. Fredâs superb suggestion of original PCT is really refreshing idea.
Maybe not all what is written in Powers âPCT for the Begginerâ will be useful, because some statements were product of Powers changing mind what is quite usual for inventors. PCT is quite unigue theory and if we go through it, youâll see that it ârepresentâ quite many truth about human life.
As I know what Iâll suggest in future through my presentations on Cybernetics Society to be improved in PCT Iâm giving you my subjective understanding of PCT. I made minor adaptations to âPCT for the Beginnerâ presented on Fredâs link :
PCT is about organisms functioning or how Living beings in general operate to survive
PCT is about goal directed behavior (purposefull) as Cybernetics is. So we can put PCT into Cybernetics theories.
Goals are achieved mostly through feedback loops where actual perception is matched to reference (wanted) perception which produce actions into immediate enviroment, attempting to change perception into wanted perception. Something what happens when people drive cars etc.
The basic idea can be stated briefly: organisms act on their surroundings, the environment, so as to control the effects the environment is having on them. According to PCT, the organism is the controller. It controls what happens to itself, by using the external world. The ability to control gives an organism very powerful ways of surviving. (note that here Powers didnât consider that also effects in internal environment should be counted in). In my presentation in âFundamentals - how organisms function from view of Ashby, Maturana and PowersâŚâ you can see that organisms function as closed system producing or maitaining homeostatic state or in Powers literature âpredetermind stateâ through activity of effectors (mostly glands and muscles).
PCT says that every behavior (activity of muscles) produced by any organism has the purpose of affecting some consequence of environmental events, some consequence that has detectable effects desired by or necessary to the organism itself. Organized behavior, according to PCT, is never produced for any other reason.
Organisms generate actions that affect the environment near them, thus altering that environment and creating or changing experiences at many levels in the way desired or intended by the organism.
An organism canât affect the rising and setting of the sun, moon, and stars. It
canât turn back a hurricane, or stop an earthquake. When natural disasters occur, organisms are overwhelmed and die. Organisms canât control natural forces (external environment), but can influence or modify their effects.
In a manner of speaking, there is really only one organism, called Life. Life survives by altering anything, including itself that reduces its capacity to survive. It does this not perfectly and instantly but well enough and soon enough that we human beings and all those other forms we living control systems have taken are still here.
The word control is used in many ways, but there is only one way it is used in PCT. To control
something is to act on it in such a way as to bring it to a predetermined state and maintain it there. (my comment) This is in accordance to Ashbyâs statement that all behaviors are homeostatic.
Driving down a long straight road, the driver attempts to keep the car in what he thinks is the
center of its lane. We have to say âattemptsâ because there are many influences that can push the car to one side or the other, and those influences can be almost as strong as the influence of the steering wheel. The term âinfluenceâ is used here because none of these forces on the car is acting alone; the final effect results from all these influences combined, not just from one of them. Note that no one influence, not even the influence of the steering wheel, would be said, in PCT, to âcontrolâ the path of the car. The driverâs means of control is the steering wheel. Influence on the carâs path is the only one the driver can vary.
Clearly, the sum of all independent influences, which we can sum up as a net âdisturbance,â
produces a net force on the car and drivers means of control to counteract influences of net âdisturbanceâ and keep the car in wanted path. The angle of the steering wheel must be adjusted to produce a restoring force a little larger than the net âdisturbanceâ (to move the car back where it belongs)
When this happens correctly, we can say that the perception of the carâs position is being controlled relative to a reference perceptual position near the perceived center of the lane. (my comment) Powers himself noticed that we donât perceive representations of the World but hierarchical perceptual models. So control hapens inside perceptual models created in the brain not in environment. Control happens in organism (the brain) and the effects of control can be seen in environment. Powers himself changed his mind quite some times.
The big question is now how this adjustment of the steering wheel can be produced. The PCT model uses an organization called a ânegative feedback control system,â which was first analyzed as a formal and general control system design in the 1930s.
Negative feedback says that if a crosswind is blowing the car to the right, the driver must respond by establishing an angle of the steering wheel to the left (the negative of right). The deviation itself is the basis for the action.
The control system detects deviations and acts according to their direction and size. This means it acts when disturbances occur and start to produce deviations. The first tiny deviations cause actions that tend strongly to restore the proper state, automatically opposing the disturbances.
Clearly there must be a second input to the control system beside the measure of the thing being controlled: a reference input that defines the goal of control. In the case of the driver, it specifies where the car is intended to be in its lane. Note that if the reference standard changes that, too, creates a deviation which the control system will act to correct.
Negative feedback system works as some âlineâ of cause and effect. They go in a circle. The driverâs hands cause the steering wheel to turn and the front wheels to angle right or left. That produces a force that makes the perception of the car deviate to the right or left. And that deviation causes the driverâs hands to move the steering wheel.
When we âdoâ something, we are actually controlling something, making it happen by acting
on the world. If disturbances come up while weâre acting, we simply make the action a little different and keep going. If somehow the action isnât quite right, so the âdoingâ starts to change, we can make another adjustment and keep going.
The basic PCT model applies to one single control process; it is part of a larger model called
âHierarchical PCTâ or HPCT that is made of many levels, each level containing many basic
control units.
By defining the parts of the basic model appropriately, however, we can apply it to
any particular control process, something as simple as a spinal reflex, or something as abstract and general as controlling a self-concept. At any level of complexity, the basic parts of the model are the same. My comment : I think this is the greatest part of Powers PCT â control unit analyses (CUA) of the Living control systems. I think this should be presented to the World as greatest achievement of the PCT.
First there is perception. To control something, you have to perceive its present state. Then there is action. To control something, you must act on the world in such a way as to alter the perception â get more or less of it.
Powers gave perfect explanation of his perceptual theory (Making sense of behavior 1998, p.24) : âOur only view of the real world is our view of the neural signal that represent it inside our own brains. When we act to make a perception change to our more desireble state â when we make the perception of the glass change from âon the tableâ to ânear the mouthâ - we have no direct knowledge of what we are doing to the reality that is the origin of our neural signal; we know only the final result, how the result looks, feels, smells, sounds, tastes, and so forthâŚ//âŚIt means that we produce actions that alter the world of perceptionâŚâ
The control task was defined as keeping the car in its lane, but how does the
driver know whether the carâs position is right or left of where it âshould beâ? What tells the driver where it should be?
Itâs easy for the driver to see where the car is in relation to its lane. But nothing in the scene outside tells the driver where the right position is.
That has to be learned, and more important, it must exist in the driver as a kind of standard against which the currently-perceived position is judged. The current perception is compared with the standard and the difference determines which way the action will go and how much action there will be.
So negative feedback control is made up of three basic processes: perception, comparison, and action as processes which enable the feedback effect of the action on the perception.
The driver must have a mental picture of how the scene in the windshield will look when the car is in its lane. We call this a âreference perceptionâ or âreference signalâ or âreference positionâ. When the actual perception matches the internally-generated reference perception, the car should be as closeas this driver can get it to perceive being in its lane.
The point is that the driver controls not the actual position of the car, as some external observer might see it, but the perceived position. And that, in a nutshell, is why this theory is called perceptual control theory.
As the reference position changes, the action of the control system makes the real-world change, which causes the perception to change so it tracks right along with the change in the reference position. The actions make the actual perception continue to match the changing reference perception all the way up the ramp, onto the frontage road, along the streets, around the corners and home.
It should not come as a surprise to hear that this changeable reference perception, or reference signal, or reference position, is being altered by another control system, a higher-level system that is concerned not with staying in a traffic lane but with getting home. The getting-home control
system is using the staying-in-the-lane (or elsewhere) control system as part of its means of control. It gets home by, in part, adjusting the perception of the position on the road where the lower system is told it wants to be.
As you mentioned that you are interested in psychoterapy Iâd adviced you, if you will try to use MOL, that you first try to use original PCT for understanding human problems. I think itâs better explaining the problems people might have and solutions that could help them.
Thank you for your lengthy explanation! The vast majority I think I get. I started to read the article âPCT for beginnersâ so think I will get moe sure of my understanding of PCT.
Iâm sure you made the best decission ever. You are on the right way to understanding how organisms really function. Thatâs the basic idea of PCT what you can see in article 2011 where Bill Powers associated PCT with his best and most devoted friends. But youâll probably find out a little problem.
Although Bill Powers claimed that PCT is scientific theory he was sometimes to much enthusiastic about friendship and he gave up his main scientific principles when some of his friends were writing about PCT like for example Rick Marken. His understanding of PCT never reached even Bill Powers knees. Youâll also find out that many members have their private theories that canât be supported with any scientific evidences.
I just wanted to turn your attention to be carefull to keep scientific pathway while reading anything from the PCT because otherwise you could be lost in phylosophy and pure psychology what I can garantee will not lead you to understanding how Living beings really function. I hope youâll understand where Bill Powers sometimes changed his mind.
So maybe you could test from time to time whether you really got the vaste majority of PCT. But your first observations of PCT and logics of perceptual thinking gave me hope that youâll become one of rare followers of PCT who could understand how organisms (including nervous system) really function.
Thanks for the alert. I just wanted to direct to possibility that Rick would want to present his RCT (Ricks Control Theory) which is quite misleading in respect to scientific PCT theory. It can confuse Mara while trying to understand real PCT as scientific theory. It happened before that Rick confused members of IAPCT. Like for ex. article that was criticized by Martin Taylor. Itâs very hard to remove destructable consequences of Rickâs writings about âPCTâ.
Iâll try not to mention Ricksâ RCT any more although I think itâs necesary if we want to understand what PCT as scientific theory really is.
Rick could really try to present his RCT as stand alone theory without âpushingâ it into PCT and even present it as PCT. Itâs his original psychological theory and I respect that. But I think itâs wrong if he tries to present it as scientific PCT theory.
I have disagreed with Rick about some things. Some of our views or interpretations may still differ. But itâs all within PCT. Differing views and interpretations are normal, expected, healthy, and necessary in any science. They do not constitute different fields of science. Personalizing it is demeaning to you and distracts from any point you wish to make.
First problem is that you are saying that different psychological theories are âinsideâ PCT as Ricksâ RCT is. See Bill Powers literature and youâll see that he criticised psychology as wrong interpretation of how organisms function (stimulus-respons). So psychological view does not âcorrespondâ to CEV at least by Powers interpretation, and it doesnât exist âinside PCTâ in other manner then proving what is not PCT.
So mostly psychological theories doesnât belong into PCT (except as wrong approcah) because they are showing something else as PCT does and so is Ricksâ RCT. Rick can present his view as critical view of PCT, but he is presenting all the time his RCT as PCT. He is saying that PCT says⌠And this is problematic because he canât support his statements neither with sicence nor with PCT statements.
I proved that hundred times on CSGnet forum (please see CSGnet archives) and that was the most probable reason why you changed forum to protect Rick and his âfantasyâ jouneys in his mind. If you use scientific evidences for talking about organisms functioning and PCT statements then we can say that you are talking about PCT and science. Otherwise you are talking about something else.
Why Martin Taylor criticized Markenâs and Schafferâs article? Because they are âinside PCTâ? They were talking about other theory, some psychological theory where people were following helicopter in âstimulus-responsâ manner. Where did you see in real World that people follow exactly movings of the helicopter? Maybe in some comedy movies. People will accompany helicopter with moving their eyes. Maybe.
Thatâs how scientific theories differ from each other and from other non-scientific theories. In using scientific evidences. And Rick is using wrong evidences what Martin showed and I criticised on CSGnet. I also wanted to respond to Rickâs and Schafferâs article but I thought that Martin clearly showed whatâs wrong with Ricks thinking about PCT and organisms functioning.
Itâs about who is right and who is wrong. Whoâs different view âcorrespondâ to CEV and whoâs not. Do we understand where is the problem of talking about science and PCT and RCT and other theories about organisms functioning? RCT is simply representing something else like many other theories do. You canât say that every imaginational construct âcorrespondâ to CEV (RR) and PCT.
Are you saying that there is no difference if you say that dogs are the same as cats and elephants are???
If youâll take a walk through CSGnet archives youâll also notice that Rick try to put into Bill Powers mouth that he is talking the same as Bill. Youâll be surprised what Billâs answer was. Or maybe youâll be not as you probably understand that never two persons can feel and think the same about the same problem.
Second problem is that you are talking about different views in science and that means that interpretations has to be scientific if we want to talk about science. Ricksâ and many others interpretations of organisms functioning are not scientific, because they donât include scientific evidences, but mostly their imagination. So they are not inside PCT which is by Powers words scientific theory.
The main problem is that Rick tries to show that his RCT interpretation is PCT by saying that âPCT saysâŚâ and he doesnât support that with scientific evidences or with PCT evidences. RCT interpretation is not what PCT says about PCT but what Rick is saying about PCT. And he should just emphasize that he is talking about his view on PCT. Here itâs not a problem if many different views and interpretations are ânormal, expected, healthy, and necessary in any scienceâ. Problem is that Rick is not talking about science and what PCT says about PCT, so itâs not about his DIFFERENT SCIENTIFIC VIEW ABOUT PCT, but he tries to present that his view is PCT view, what is simply not truth, so he is not âinside PCTâ but outside PCT as Bill described. He is not talking about what Bill wrote or said about PCT as he canât support his statements with any scientific evidences. Do you understand where is the problem?
Different views have to be first classifyed as science. And RCT has nothing to do with science as also some other private theories do not, because they are not supported with scientific evidences. When views and interperations will be classifyed as science then different views can be classifyed as âwithin PCTâ and WHEN RICK SHOWS SCIENTIFIC AND PCT EVIDENCES we can say that Rick is talking about PCT.
The same problem is with Warren. I warned him several times that Iâll write to Manchester leadership and report him as not using any science in his psychoterapy although Iâm not sure how much damage I could make. I asked also Tim Carey for help to persuade Warren to start using science on scientific organization as Machester University is. There Iâll show scientific evidences why Warren does not use PCT as scientific theory but he uses RCT as non-scientific theory. Both theories differe in the essence of being scientific or not. Itâs not a problem to talk about PCT from different views. The problem is when somebody says he is talking PCT and he is not, because he canât prove that.
But I think you know all about these problems. You canât mix friendship with science. And thatâs what you try to do. Defend Ricksâ wrong (non-scientific) understanding of organisms functioning. You are not harming just Rick, but also PCT.
You are still referring to âRickâs RCTâ. Stop it.
You are erecting a really inept straw man argument. Where I talk about disagreements within a developing theory, PCT, you substitute disagreement between PCT and S-R theories.
All the disagreements are within PCT, as indeed there are disagreements and arguments within any science. Not all the disagreeing proposals are accepted within the science. The process that leads to one view being accepted and the other not is a discussion that focuses on the specific terms of the disagreement. You need to focus on the specific things you disagree with. You canât just say âeverything Rick says is wrongâ.
No, I did not say that all theories or explanations in the world are included within PCT. If youâre going to keep setting up straw-man arguments you need to at least be plausible. You point to stimulus-response theories as an example. No, that is not what I said. Any stimulus-response explanation is very quickly dismissed in PCT discussions.
The resolution of a disagreement is a collective decision by the scientists in the field. Itâs called âcurrent scientific consensusâ. It is expected to change and evolve over time. It is not determined by who said it, or what the founders of the field said. It is determined by nature. It is determined by devising empirical tests in which one view explains the results of the tests and the other view does not.
Sometimes conflicting views must be sustained for a long time within a field. Is electromagnetic radiation such as light a matter of particles or waves? Physicists still seek to reconcile relativity and quantum mechanics.
Familiarity with virtually any scientific theory confronts us with disparity between experienced perceptions and the story that the theory tells. âThe fool on the hill sees the sun going down, but the eyes in his head see the world spinning 'round.â How are you doing with all that dark matter in your left forearm? System concepts can be more or less rigid or flexible (Milton Rokeach The Open and Closed Mind). People with rigid system concepts have little tolerance for alternative theoretical frameworks. Itâs no wonder some of them reject science altogether. They accept its beneficial applications. They accept its explanations of familiar experiences that are otherwise puzzling to them. That opens a way for them to accept âwell, there must be something to it, though I donât understand it.â
Our project here is the advancement and further development of PCT. Scientists, too, can get rigid and intolerant of alternatives to the theory in which they are most comfortable. What can open the way for them might be PCT explanations of familiar experiences that are otherwise puzzling to them and beneficial applications that are not obtainable by their theory.
For the science, it doesnât matter who says it. What matters is, does nature agree. âBoss realityâ is the bossâeven though we donât know and canât be absolutely certain what it really is. All we have is our explanations of our perceptions, our theories. Theories are made up of imaginary perceptions. We test them by controlling perceptions in a disciplined way (i.e. controlled at Principle and System Concept levels that we call science), but they remain imaginary. To protect ourselves from that uncomfortable fact, we use the word theoretical rather than imaginary. Well, not just to coddle ourselves, the distinction is precisely that theoretical perceptions must be tested and fantasies often are not.
So stop indulging your fantasies about âRCTâ and âRickâs RCTâ and your grandiose fantasy that you and maybe a few other favored people are the only ones who truly understand PCT. Just focus on the specific terms of your disagreement with Rick.
Rick also tends to present his PCT explanations of phenomena as the only possible ways that PCT can explain those phenomena. He recognized this (sort of) in e.g. Rick Marken (2017.06.25.1210):
EJ: I will bring up one example of a change of tone that I believe would make an enormous difference. You say, in the midst of this discussion with Martin, regarding your power law paper --
RM: >... I was amazed that everyone who participated in the debate, even those who have been at this for years, dismissed _the_ PCT explanation of the power law as Alex did. ... [emphasis added for clarity]
[EJ]: I don't think you get to say that your interpretation is "the" PCT explanation. You were obviously hearing from several people well versed in PCT, who disagreed with you. They may have been working towards a different PCT explanation.
RM: Thanks for the suggestion Erling. I suppose I could have said "my PCT explanation of the power law". But I was asked for the PCT explanation of the power law and that's what I gave. If others thought (or still think) that it's not the PCT explanation then they should have provided (or provide now) the actual PCT explanation. I don't understand what it means to be "working towards a different PCT explanation". I think there could only be one.
This was in connection with the power law paper and the pursuit control model of people chasing toy helicopters. In the present topic you have several vague and unsubstantiated claims about that paper.
You refer to a paper by Marken and Schaffer. Please provide a citation and a link to the paper. Where is their claim that stimuli caused their responses, and that they followed exactly? Please provide quotations.
Here is a summary statement in Martinâs response to the Marken-Shaffer paper.
The model they
offer may or may not be a correct PCT model for what people do when chasing toy helicopters,
but whether it is or not, it contains nothing that would explain why the movements of either
people or toy helicopters conform to the power law. It simply asks how people act in order to
bring their perceptions of the helicopterâs position in x and y relative to their own position nearer
to their reference values for those perceptions (equality).
If a power-law relation exists between the velocity of the helicopter or the pursuer and the radius
of curvature of either path (and according to their data it does), the reason for that relationship is
not addressed by their model, which appears to have been introduced only to bring the ideas (if
not the name) of Perceptual Control Theory to the notice of a wider public (in itself a laudable
objective, or so I believe). It is quite possible, even likely, that something about the processes
involved in the control of certain perceptions accounts for the power law and the variations in the
observed power, but Marken and Shaffer do not pursue this line of enquiry.
Martin did not call it S-R. He did not question the control model. He only said that the mathematical explanation for conformity to the power law was untenable because of a mathematical error. The power law is a generalization from empirical observations.
Airing the disagreement publicly did have the virtue of bringing PCT to the attention of a wider audience. For this, I thank Rick and Martin, as I think we all should. I note that the publications are not posted on Rickâs mindreadings.com website. Whether deliberately or not, it may have been a personal sacrifice for the benefit of PCT. Rick is deeply committed to PCT, and I canât rule out the possibility of a long-game perspective.
You repeat a general assertion that some peopleâs claims are not supported by evidence.
This is false. If you are not familiar with the many results of experiments and models that Rick and others have reported (and there are far more than have been published) then study them before you get a day older. If you are familiar with them, but you claim that they do not support what Rick or others say about control and living control systems, then identify specifically what you think is wrong. If you canât or wonât do either of those things, then shut up. You have no standing.
You are in no position to âwarnâ anybody. My perception is that you have reduced your credibility in this forum practically to zero. I invite anyone to contradict that assessment if they think I am wrong.
Here again, you have threatened someone. You admit that you threatened to write to the administration of Warrenâs university and tell them that Warren was doing something improper.
Specific citations, please. My recollection is that you have never âprovenâ anything. You have only posted vague aspersions, ad hominem attacks, and extended quotations from some things that Bill Powers wrote (but not other things that he also wrote). You have produced no reports of experiments or modeling, no proposals for experiments or modeling, no original theoretical proposals that might be developed and tested, nothing, zip, nada.
This is a paranoid fantasy.
But you bring up another question about the relation of a theory to its applications.
Tests of a theory are more strictly constrained than applications of the theory. Applications get to presume that the theory is correct. Newtonâs physics enables engineers to build structures, put satellites in orbit, send vehicles to the moon and mars and slingshot them around Jupiter to inspect other planets and their moons. Those who apply the theory are in fact exposing it to Boss Reality, but not as a scientific experiment.
MOL is a clinical application of PCT. The clinical experience is an observable phenomenon of human interaction. PCT is obligated to explain phenomena of human interaction. The MOL process is explained as âgoing up a levelâ, but the actual process has not been studied in detail, and we have no data adequate for constructing and testing a model.
I believe it will be found to be more complicated than âgoing up a levelâ. Talking is instrumental in it, and language provides a locus for attention that is âbesideâ the nonverbal perceptions to which language perceptions âreferâ. People come for therapy when conflict is distressing to them, and âdistressâ involves the relationships of the somatic branch of the hierarchy, the limbic system, and memories that are evoked and strengthened in association with the circumstances of the conflict. These subsystemic relationships have not been considered in any PCT model of observed behavior.
Boris, Iâve just pointed to where a lot of research needs to be done. You claim expertise in the somatic branch of the hierarchy. Will you do that research? Or will you just get angry and say nasty things about me?
your phylosophy is useless. This sort of our discussions are fruitless. Rickâs RCT (Ricksâ Control Theory) doesnât have any scientific arguments and neither your phylosophy BNCT (Bruce Nevin Control Theory) including MCT etc.
I beleive thatâs the main reason why PCT is rotating on one place, going nowhere. You are all rotating words from left to right and vica verse doing practically nothing. When I read contributions on IAPCT meetings itâs like looking into a classroom where students try to understand PCT.
If you want to keep your different âPCTâ views on the problem of organisms functioning itâs your way of choosing your life decissions. But itâs obvious that youâll hardly change anything in your unscientific approcaches to organisms functioning.
You invited me back to discussions here and asked me to show you my presentation on Cybernetics Society how organisms function through my DBCS diagram. You asked me also for detailed explanation when Iâll finnish series of presentations on Cybernetics Society. And I promised you that Iâll do it. And that is all.
As MOL is concerned Iâd really like to see âclinicalâ researches how it works and how efficient it is. I think that Michael Lambertâs researches about âpsychoterapyâ still stand and his critics about unefficiency of psychoterapy methods. MOL is quite useless method of helping people if something will not change. Itâs better to see Lamberts critics for yourself.
As Warren is concerned you help in my decission to really write to Manchester leadership as soon as possible so to stop Warrens replication of RCT (Ricks Control Theory). It will be pure scientific discussion. So you canât do anything about it beside that youâll try to âbarkâ into the Moon. I hoped that maybe you will help to change Warrenâs mind as his obligation to scientific explanation which is grounded by the nature of Universities if they are really scientific organizations. Some home-made theories like RCT, BNCT, MCT and so on have nothing to do there.
He, he Bruce itâs obviously that you are provocator of top kind and that you exactly know that you wrote prefectly empty text and you thought that Iâll get angry. To calm you I donât have any intention or wish to persuade you what is right and wrong in advancing and promoting PCT as scientific theory. You persuaded yourself by inviting me to explain my DBCS on IAPCT. Remember?
I got request to explain my DBCS from many sources. I need time. To really get into the secrets of organisms functioning a lot of work has to be done if we want it to be good or at least on the level of Bill Powers.
But Iâd really like to invite you to my next presentations on Cybernetics Society as I really worked hard to harmonize many scientific concepts and specially physiological concepts about âcontrol unit organizationâ (CUO) of organisms. I think that you canât imagine the huge multidisciplinary work which was never done before in Cybernetics.
You exactly know what you wanted to achieve with your post and itâs quite clear that you have nothing except your desire to âprotectâ Rick and RCT, BNCT, MCT etc. Thatâs what âdifferent viewsâ of PCT is about. Keeping âemptynessâ and achieved level of understanding of whatever you think is your ârightâ understanding about organsims functiong. You are mostly wrong.
Mentioned theories have a little to do with science and PCT and IAPCT will never make any revolution or progress in understanding how organisms really function although you tryed with Rick to make a ârevolutionâ, but we see that itâs not worth of mentioning any progressive tendency.
As I wrote before. Your are very inteligent person and itâs quite natural that youâll try to preserve what you achieved with various means. Youâll vary your control of âerrorâ until youâll get close to what you want. itâs highly improbable that youâll get what you really, really want. But itâs worth of trying. But not with âCVâ understanding of how organisms function. Itâs wrong approach.
So Iâll just say good-bye and Iâll keep contact to say my oppinion about PCT if anybody like Mara will try to find out how organisms function. Till then Iâll keep my Cybernetics way of presenting organisms functioning and thatâs where my researches are directed.
You can research whatever you want. Itâs useless if youâll not come to the conclussion and means to promote scientific PCT and Bill Powers name as inventor of incredibly good theory. I knew from the beggining that Iâll not achieve any advancement in your scientific approcah to PCT. But I at least tried. Knowing PCT as I scientifically understand it, itâs not hard to understand why people are so predictable.
And you are not trying to do anything to understand scientific PCT and organisms functioning. Sorry Richard Pfau, Fred, Kent and Martin are an exceptions. They understand that PCT has to make some step forward so that it will catch modern knowledge in many sciences. I think that also Frank, Eva and Earling understand that. Need not to mention Adam, Alex and their co-workers. Iâm sure that they will come faster than IAPCT to basic conclussions about how primitive organisms function so to explain their âPower Lawâ in detail. They are scientists.
In some sense you are an exception too. You wanted me to present my DBCS theory about organisms functiong when Iâll finnish my presentations on Cybernetics Society. I promised you that Iâll do that and Iâll keep my promise. And thatâs all.
I really wish that Mara would come closer to understanding how organisms function. If Mara youâll have any questions about scientific support to PCT and organsims functioning you can turn to me directly on my e-mail or through ZOOM etc. I think you can ask Richard Pfau, Fred or Kent or maybe Martin how to contact me.
