The PCT Economics Model - Initializing and testing

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.02.1630 CST)]

Data for Initialization and Testing

I am thinking that the application can be used in two ways. You can
build a society one member/group at a time or you can start with
certain initial conditions. When setting the initial conditions,
then we need to use at a minimum standard data found (I hope) on the
gov pages. We should be able to load data from 1928 or 1929, then
simulate economic interaction for 5-6 years, and the resulting
statistics match what is on the gov pages for 1934 or 1935.

I am thinking that the type of data we need are below. We will need
to discuss the model of an individual and the relevant items being
controlled, but regardless of our final model, data like that below
will be needed for initialization and testing. When anybody thinks
of anything, please chime in!!!

1. Total population
2. Total number of farmers.
3. Count of companies and their employees (Rick showed a page like
this either last year or the year before).
4. Net income to the companies and amount paid to the employees
5. Count of companies that sell to other companies versus to individuals
6. Income distribution across the population
7. Calorie distribution across the population (is there
such a thing)?
8. housing/property distribution across the population
9. Any relevant disease outbreaks
10. Count of people affected by drought
11. Number of adults added to the economy each year
12. Count of family units and number of children per family
13. General demographics � age, sex, etc.
14. Etc.

adding some items already:

* sales tax rates (relevant tax rates)
* income tax percentages
* loan rates
* count of people employed by the government
* count of people recieving money from government programs

···

On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Shannon Williams <verbingle@gmail.com> wrote:

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.02.1630 CST)]

Data for Initialization and Testing

I am thinking that the application can be used in two ways. �You can
build a society one member/group at a time or you can start with
certain initial conditions. � When setting the initial conditions,
then we need to use at a minimum standard data found (I hope) on the
gov pages. �We should be able to load data from 1928 or 1929, then
simulate economic interaction for 5-6 years, and the resulting
statistics match what is on the gov pages for 1934 or 1935.

I am thinking that the type of data we need are below. �We will need
to discuss the model of an individual and the relevant items being
controlled, but regardless of our final model, data like that below
will be needed for initialization and testing. � When anybody thinks
of anything, please chime in!!!

1. � � �Total population
2. � � �Total number of farmers.
3. � � �Count of companies and their employees (Rick showed a page like
this either last year or the year before).
4. � � �Net income to the companies and amount paid to the employees
5. � � �Count of companies that sell to other companies versus to individuals
6. � � �Income distribution across the population
7. � � � � � � Calorie distribution across the population (is there
such a thing)?
8. � � � � � � housing/property distribution across the population
9. � � �Any relevant disease outbreaks
10. � � Count of people affected by drought
11. � � Number of adults added to the economy each year
12. � � Count of family units and number of children per family
13. � � General demographics � age, sex, etc.
14. � � Etc.

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.0345 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.02.1630 CST) --

SW: I am thinking that the application can be used in two ways. You can
build a society one member/group at a time or you can start with
certain initial conditions. When setting the initial conditions,
then we need to use at a minimum standard data found (I hope) on the
gov pages. We should be able to load data from 1928 or 1929, then
simulate economic interaction for 5-6 years, and the resulting
statistics match what is on the gov pages for 1934 or 1935.

BP: Before we can use data like that (and we will need much of it), we have to have a behaving system. It's a behaving system made of people who try to achieve goals by using the available means, and who interact with other behaving people. The available means start with the way the system is currently organized -- how goods are made, distributed, and exchanged, how money is obtained, saved, and used, and what rules exist for governing behavior (for example, you have to pay for goods, not just take them). None of this involves any specific behaviors, because these things are involved in all economic behavior in the current system.

It may be too difficult to go directly to a model of the whole US economy. I think we first have to study how transactions occur, which is how most economic theories I have heard of start. We have to consider what people need and want, needs being what is necessary to support a life with tolerable error, and wants being added as acquired sub-goals and further error-correction. And we have to consider both producers and consumers of goods and services; they play different roles and have different goals. In fact, one good starting point might be to define the main classes of actors in the system.

If we can define the basic system in the right way, it won't favor any particular economic system because it will have the same properties in any system. In fact, that's a good way to think of what we need to construct first: a picture of how people work under any social system. Economic Man. OK, Economic Person. But we also have to start with the system as it is now -- not its behavior, but its properties.

Glad to see this getting started.

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Aug 3 0830 MDT]

Don't forget FDRs confiscation of gold and the default on the US debt, which was supposed to be pd at $20 per oz of gold. -- Martin L

···

On 8/2/2011 3:20 PM, Shannon Williams wrote:

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.02.1630 CST)]

Data for Initialization and Testing

I am thinking that the application can be used in two ways. You can
build a society one member/group at a time or you can start with
certain initial conditions. When setting the initial conditions,
then we need to use at a minimum standard data found (I hope) on the
gov pages. We should be able to load data from 1928 or 1929, then
simulate economic interaction for 5-6 years, and the resulting
statistics match what is on the gov pages for 1934 or 1935.

I am thinking that the type of data we need are below. We will need
to discuss the model of an individual and the relevant items being
controlled, but regardless of our final model, data like that below
will be needed for initialization and testing. When anybody thinks
of anything, please chime in!!!

1. Total population
2. Total number of farmers.
3. Count of companies and their employees (Rick showed a page like
this either last year or the year before).
4. Net income to the companies and amount paid to the employees
5. Count of companies that sell to other companies versus to individuals
6. Income distribution across the population
7. Calorie distribution across the population (is there
such a thing)?
8. housing/property distribution across the population
9. Any relevant disease outbreaks
10. Count of people affected by drought
11. Number of adults added to the economy each year
12. Count of family units and number of children per family
13. General demographics � age, sex, etc.
14. Etc.

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Aug 3 0936 MDT]

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.0345 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.02.1630 CST) --

SW: I am thinking that the application can be used in two ways. You can
build a society one member/group at a time or you can start with
certain initial conditions. When setting the initial conditions,
then we need to use at a minimum standard data found (I hope) on the
gov pages. We should be able to load data from 1928 or 1929, then
simulate economic interaction for 5-6 years, and the resulting
statistics match what is on the gov pages for 1934 or 1935.

BP: Before we can use data like that (and we will need much of it), we have to have a behaving system. It's a behaving system made of people who try to achieve goals by using the available means, and who interact with other behaving people. The available means start with the way the system is currently organized -- how goods are made, distributed, and exchanged, how money is obtained, saved, and used, and what rules exist for governing behavior (for example, you have to pay for goods, not just take them). None of this involves any specific behaviors, because these things are involved in all economic behavior in the current system.

Among behaviors be sure to include how prices are set, and if they aren't market based, please including queuing, rationing, trading in ration cards, cronyism, etc.

It may be too difficult to go directly to a model of the whole US economy. I think we first have to study how transactions occur, which is how most economic theories I have heard of start. We have to consider what people need and want, needs being what is necessary to support a life with tolerable error, and wants being added as acquired sub-goals and further error-correction. And we have to consider both producers and consumers of goods and services; they play different roles and have different goals. In fact, one good starting point might be to define the main classes of actors in the system.

Most consumers should also be producers. A class system should not be built in.

If we can define the basic system in the right way, it won't favor any particular economic system because it will have the same properties in any system. In fact, that's a good way to think of what we need to construct first: a picture of how people work under any social system. Economic Man. OK, Economic Person. But we also have to start with the system as it is now -- not its behavior, but its properties.

How can it "favor" any particular economic system, unless we have values to judge it by? Or is greater production to be the pure materialistic standard? We may end up with a system with 80 hour work weeks and no vacations or retirement. Or are we to favor a system that aggregates and maximizes the internal subjective value that each person gets for the level of effort they are willing to expend. Or something else?

-- Martin L

···

On 8/3/2011 4:20 AM, Bill Powers wrote:

Glad to see this getting started.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.03.1015)]

Bill Powers (2011.08.03.0345 MDT)-

Shannon Williams (2011.08.02.1630 CST) --

SW: I am thinking that the application can be used in two ways...

BP: Before we can use data like that (and we will need much of it), we have
to have a behaving system. It's a behaving system made of people who try to
achieve goals by using the available means, and who interact with other
behaving people.

I've got my own ideas about how to do this, of course. I think
modeling the economy will be a nice intellectual exercise. But I'm
pretty sure it will be no more effective at influencing people than
have our models of purposeful behavior. People with what is basically
a political investment in the status quo in psychology have simply
ignored our demonstrations of the incorrectness of their assumptions
and have gone on to "disprove" PCT by scoffing at it. I have seen
this happen in meetings (like the Gordon Conference that was held
here in Oxnard years ago) where I have been the victim of this
scoffing and in reviews of my papers. I am pretty sure any model of
the economy that we develop based on PCT principles will get the same
reception.

What made me think of this was a recent quote from Krugman's blog:

�This is a Paul Krugman presidency,� Gingrich told Bill O�Reilly.
�[Obama] believes that stuff. He actually believes in left-wing
economic ideas. The only problem with them is that they don�t work.�

Note that there is no substance to this scoffing; it is simply stated
as though it were an obvious fact, believed by everyone, that
Krugman's ideas are wrong. Never mind that Krugman has been right
about nearly everything that has happened in the economy since he
started his column back in the late 1990s.

It's nice to see that Krugman, whom I admire greatly, has been
subjected to the same kind of treatment as I (and many other PCTers)
have. But it is a tad discouraging also because I think this way of
dealing with ideas -- scoffing at them without confronting them
substantively -- is quite effective. I think it's one reason why PCT
has not had more of an impact in the life sciences. The challenge of
PCT is rarely confronted directly; rather, PCT is just scoffed at --
dismissed as obviously wrong; everyone just knows that.

Of course, that's not going to keep me (or Paul) from trying to
convince our opponents with models and evidence (data). But I think
that how people -- including scientists -- deal with challenging ideas
has more to do with non-scientific concerns (prestige, power, money,
social acceptance) than with scientific ones (how well the idea fits
the data). I think this is the main reason why scientific paradigm
shifts are so difficult. Defense of the status quo (per Kuhn, as
mentioned in a recent post by Richard Pfau -- great to meet you at the
meeting Richard) is done more to control for career, status, money and
power than for the truth.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1300 CST)]

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.0345 MDT)]

BP: Before we can use data like that (and we will need much of it), we have
to have a behaving system. It's a behaving system made of people who try to
achieve goals by using the available means, and who interact with other
behaving people. The available means start with the way the system is
currently organized -- how goods are made, distributed, and exchanged, how
money is obtained, saved, and used, and what rules exist for governing
behavior (for example, you have to pay for goods, not just take them). None
of this involves any specific behaviors, because these things are involved
in all economic behavior in the current system.

I agree. I think that at first we start with a pre-determined set
available behaviors. Each controller will select the behaviors that
control it the best.

It may be too difficult to go directly to a model of the whole US economy. I
think we first have to study how transactions occur, which is how most
economic theories I have heard of start.

I think that in the last 20 years (I can't believe that I have known
you that long!) you have identified how these transactions occur. It
is like you have figured out how the heart works, but you need a body
to put it in. I know how to build the body.

We have to consider what people
need and want, needs being what is necessary to support a life with
tolerable error, and wants being added as acquired sub-goals and further
error-correction. And we have to consider both producers and consumers of
goods and services; they play different roles and have different goals. In
fact, one good starting point might be to define the main classes of actors
in the system.

Cool. I would like to get the interface set up so that you can figure
these things out. I can make an environment that defines where the
Aorta and nerves are so that you can hook them up to the heart.

Glad to see this getting started.

YAY!!! Now if I can just get my real work to stay at bay.

Thanks,
Shannon

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1300 CST)]

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Aug 3 0830 MDT]

Don't forget FDRs confiscation of gold and the default on the US debt, which
was supposed to be pd at $20 per oz of gold. -- Martin L

added confiscation of gold
added default on Debt.

How many times has the US defaulted on debt? do you have a page that shows it?

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1330 CST)]

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Aug 3 0936 MDT]

Among behaviors be sure to include how prices are set, and if they aren't
market based, please including queuing, rationing, trading in ration cards,
cronyism, etc.

Added to properties list:
minimun/maximum prices
queuing (what is that?)
rationing
cronyism

I expect that we don't need to add cronyism because that is inherent
connection within a society. We can see when we get to later
versions.

Most consumers should also be producers. �A class system should not be built
in.

We are starting with generic controllers. Everyone is equal. Same
height, weight, color. Only difference is the controlled variables and
available behaviors.

How can it "favor" any particular economic system, unless we have values to
judge it by? �Or is greater production to be the pure materialistic
standard? �We may end up with a system with 80 hour work weeks and no
vacations or retirement. �Or are we to favor a system that aggregates and
maximizes the internal subjective value that each person gets for the level
of effort they are willing to expend. �Or something else?

Well. Everyone will be able to download their app and figure out what
looks 'better' or 'worse' to himself.

Thanks,
Shannon

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1330 CST)]

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.03.1015)]

I've got my own ideas about how to do this, of course. I think
modeling the economy will be a nice intellectual exercise. But I'm
pretty sure it will be no more effective at influencing people than
have our models of purposeful behavior. �People with what is basically
a political investment in the status quo in psychology have simply
ignored our demonstrations of the incorrectness of their assumptions
and have gone on to "disprove" PCT by scoffing at it. �I have seen
this happen in meetings �(like the Gordon Conference that was held
here in Oxnard years ago) where I have been the victim of this
scoffing and in reviews of my papers. I am pretty sure any model of
the economy that we develop based on PCT principles will get the same
reception.

agreed. The market will not be Economists or people who think that
they 'know'. The market will be people who don't think that they
'know'. Which is most of the world. The app just needs to be basic
enough that people can see for themselves.

Thanks,
Shannon

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Aug 3 1236 MDT]

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1300 CST)]

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Aug 3 0830 MDT]

Don't forget FDRs confiscation of gold and the default on the US debt, which
was supposed to be pd at $20 per oz of gold. -- Martin L

added confiscation of gold
added default on Debt.

How many times has the US defaulted on debt? do you have a page that shows it?

The US usually defaults by devaluations. The other time I know of would have been Nixon's withdrawal from Bretton Woods, when we stopped exchanged gold for dollars.

-- Martin L

···

On 8/3/2011 12:11 PM, Shannon Williams wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.1257 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1300 CST)]

I agree. I think that at first we start with a pre-determined set
available behaviors. Each controller will select the behaviors that
control it the best.

Before we talk about behaviors, let's talk about controlled variables and their reference levels. Behavior, after all, is only the means by which we control the things that matter to us. Behavior will vary with every disturbance and every change of reference level. There's no way to predict it in advance except by running a model that behaves the same way as the real people under given circumstances.

Here are a few of the most important things some people control for (the first few are pretty universal). You can make them more detailed and add more.

Food
Water
Temperature
Clothing
Housing
Safety
Companionship
Entertainment
Knowledge
Love and/or bodily pleasure
Aesthetic pleasure
Respect/acceptance (by others and/or self)
Happiness (for others and/or self)
Freedom (from control by others)
Power (to control others)
Generosity/helping others
Superiority (over others)

Some of these goals may be means to achieving others or dependent on others. None of them is an economic goal in itself, but together they show why we adopt economic goals. In fact, you can develop an organizing principle for this list by asking, "What is it that people want from a successful economic system other than the system itself?" That's what I was doing when I generated the list. I haven't tried to assign relative importances.

It might be be possible to boil the list down to fewer categories, always remembering Powers' First Law of Group Behavior: "Some do, and some don't." The model must include both.

After this list has been worked over, the next step is to ask how people achieve these goals -- what are the means available, and how they are used. That will lead to the basic control systems we want to investigate.

A caution: Abandon your beliefs, all ye who enter here. The point of competent modeling is to discover the truth, not to prove you were right all along.

Best,

Bill P.

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1500 CST)]

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.1257 MDT)]

Behavior, after all, is only the means by which we
control the things that matter to us. Behavior will vary with every
disturbance and every change of reference level. There's no way to predict
it in advance except by running a model that behaves the same way as the
real people under given circumstances.

OK. I am just pointing out that we only have a select number of
behaviors. You can give money to an ice cream man, a convenience
store, a grocery store, a department store, a park. ETC. and/or you
can give time to these things or you can give time to a connection, a
park, a book, a hobby, a computer, etc. All possible behaviors though
are pre-deterimined in the App. We need to model how we will select
the behavior. In a future version we can actually model how new
behaviors come to exist.

Food
Water
Temperature
Clothing
Housing
Safety
Companionship
Entertainment
Knowledge
Love and/or bodily pleasure
Aesthetic pleasure
Respect/acceptance (by others and/or self)
Happiness (for others and/or self)
Freedom (from control by others)
Power (to control others)
Generosity/helping others
Superiority (over others)

Some of these goals may be means to achieving others or dependent on others.
None of them is an economic goal in itself, but together they show why we
adopt economic goals. In fact, you can develop an organizing principle for
this list by asking, "What is it that people want from a successful economic
system other than the system itself?" That's what I was doing when I
generated the list. I haven't tried to assign relative importances.

Very cool. I created an 'Valued Properties' section in my notebook.
Every controller will need a list of these properties and a way to
configure their relative importance (easiest to do via demographics I
think). Each behavior will need to address these properties via a
number for how much it relieves the property.

It might be be possible to boil the list down to fewer categories, always
remembering Powers' First Law of Group Behavior: "Some do, and some don't."
The model must include both.

Yes. Are you thinking these values should be loaded with initial conditions?

After this list has been worked over, the next step is to ask how people
achieve these goals -- what are the means available, and how they are used.
That will lead to the basic control systems we want to investigate.

Yes. We need a model to use the valued properties to select
appropriate behaviors.

A caution: Abandon your beliefs, all ye who enter here. The point of
competent modeling is to discover the truth, not to prove you were right all
along.

Okie Dokie! Don't look forward. don't look back. Don't look up.
Just keep you head down and build.

Take Care,
Shannon

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.2148 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.03.1500 CST) --

> [From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.1257 MDT)]
>
>BP earlier: Behavior, after all, is only the means by which we
> control the things that matter to us. Behavior will vary with every
> disturbance and every change of reference level. There's no way to predict
> it in advance except by running a model that behaves the same way as the
> real people under given circumstances.

SW: OK. I am just pointing out that we only have a select number of
behaviors. You can give money to an ice cream man, a convenience
store, a grocery store, a department store, a park. ETC. and/or you
can give time to these things or you can give time to a connection, a
park, a book, a hobby, a computer, etc. All possible behaviors though
are pre-deterimined in the App. We need to model how we will select
the behavior. In a future version we can actually model how new
behaviors come to exist.

BP: I think you're overlooking something that you actually know.

The behavior you must use to achieve a given goal is determined by the world outside you, not by you. You can't practice making salt-water taffy if what you want is to play the piano at Carnegie Hall. You have to study music, or piano-tuning. Whether you will turn right or left at the next corner or go straight ahead depends not on whether you want to turn or go straight, but on where your destination is. And your behavior has to change with every disturbance -- every detour sign --if you simply want to go on achieving the same goal.

You could give money to the ice-cream man, but you could also wait until he's not looking and steal an ice-cream bar, or rob him at gun-point, or bargain with him, or persuade him to give you credit, or put off buying from him until he holds a two-for-one sale.

Controlling something isn't a kind of behavior, it's a consequence, a result of behaving in the right relationship to unpredictable events and situations that are continuously changing. This is why trying to enumerate all possible behaviors is futile. I think you know that, but are using "behavior" to mean "goal-attainment" or perhaps "means of goal-attainment." Paying money is a means of achieving the goal of obtaining specific goods that you want. If you want a good, you get it by paying the asking price or at least bidding an amount that won't violate another goal like maintaining your savings at a given level if the bid is accepted. Your actual behavior, if you're bidding, may be to pay less (by an unpredictable amount) than you're willing to pay, so you can't even predict your own behavior with much accuracy.

What you can enumerate for purposes of modeling is (for example) a range of goods that people need or want, a range of reference levels for each one, the strategies producers use for setting prices, and the monetary and social goals that consumers and producers pursue. Given such things, the model will proceed to behave in ways determined by the properties you have given its components. Such a model can't be completely comprehensive, especially at first before it has been tested at all. We may have some guesses about how it might behave, but we won't know until we set it in motion. Once we have seen its behavior and have compared it with what has actually happened in the past, we can add missing features and correct mistakes, first getting the model to run at all, and then bringing the model closer to reality.

SW: Very cool. I created an 'Valued Properties' section in my notebook.
Every controller will need a list of these properties and a way to
configure their relative importance (easiest to do via demographics I
think). Each behavior will need to address these properties via a
number for how much it relieves the property.

BP: Relieves? I think your brain meant "values." For any given good, the value of the good is specified by the reference signal in the model which determines how much of it you want, or perhaps by the nature of the higher-order goal that the good helps you to achieve. The importance of the good is set by the loop gain that says how hard you will try to correct any deviation of the amount you obtain from the amount you want. The term "value" itself as used in economics is almost undefined -- except when reduced simply to "amount of money you would pay to get as much of it as you want or need." But under that usage value fluctuates with every change of circumstances, such as appearance of a new product that offers some of the benefits of an older one, or running into a budget constraint, or getting married. It also depends on the level of control you're talking about -- value relative to what purpose? Survival? Vanity? Power?

I'm not trying to make things more difficult, just trying to show that what we need to give the model are properties, not behaviors. The behaviors will emerge from the properties. The behavior of some segments of the economy will change in relation to the behavior of other segments, with changes in the natural world, with population, with weather, with season. Behavior is not the most important thing: controlled variables and their reference levels are what matter the most.

I suggest that we tackle something really simple and see how it goes. That will make a lot of things clearer. How about just one person who buys 5 different goods and makes a certain wage trying to satisfy reference signals for consuming each good at some specific rate? Everything not specified as a property of the model (such as a reference level) or a variable affected by the behavior of the model (such as rates of purchase and amount of spending) is an independent variable we can set to different values to see what happens. I'm not going to suggest how to set up the model; I'll just critique it as it develops. This is just a model of one consumer. When we get the hang of modeling one consumer, we can model N consumers, and then turn to modeling producer, then M producers. Then we can try running both models together. Step by step. Just exploring to see what will happen.

Best,

Bill P.

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.04.0730 CST)]

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.03.2148 MDT)]

What you can enumerate for purposes of modeling is (for example) a range of
goods that people need or want, a range of reference levels for each one,
the strategies producers use for setting prices, and the monetary and social
goals that consumers and producers pursue. Given such things, the model will
proceed to behave in ways determined by the properties you have given its
components. Such a model can't be completely comprehensive, especially at
first before it has been tested at all. We may have some guesses about how
it might behave, but we won't know until we set it in motion. Once we have
seen its behavior and have compared it with what has actually happened in
the past, we can add missing features and correct mistakes, first getting
the model to run at all, and then bringing the model closer to reality.

Agreed.

What you are saying is that you have a selection of goods that have a
list of properties which and each property has a satisfaction value.
For example, the product 'Ice Cream' satisfies 1) hunger X by amount,
2) the desire to socialize Y amount * the number of friend who might
select ice Cream, 3) the desire to stay busy by z amount, etc.

To get the item, you either have it come to you or you go to it.

I'm not trying to make things more difficult, just trying to show that what
we need to give the model are properties, not behaviors. The behaviors will
emerge from the properties.

OK. You stay focused on making the model receive input, make
decisions, and make output. I will stay focused on the ones and
zeros. My goal is to build an App that you can start and stop and
configure and play with. Also, my goal is to have an app that will
predict the flow of money/goods and services through a society given
certain initial conditions.

For the example above, it may turn out that going to a 'store' or
location versus having it come to you, is all that is needed for the
model. The Store itself can be modeled as fulfilling a need and you
do not need to model the actual products. If that is the case, then
you do not need to model 'picking up and item'. I guess we just model
the results of a behavior. Hunger level is at x, socialization need
is at Y, money level is at Z, etc. for this controller and money level
and goods(if appropriate) reset in the 'providing' controller.

The behavior of some segments of the economy

will change in relation to the behavior of other segments, with changes in
the natural world, with population, with weather, with season. Behavior is
not the most important thing: controlled variables and their reference
levels are what matter the most.

Definitely. Agreed.

I suggest that we tackle something really simple and see how it goes. That
will make a lot of things clearer. How about just one person who buys 5
different goods and makes a certain wage trying to satisfy reference signals
for consuming each good at some specific rate? Everything not specified as a
property of the model (such as a reference level) or a variable affected by
the behavior of the model (such as rates of purchase and amount of spending)
is an independent variable we can set to different values to see what
happens. I'm not going to suggest how to set up the model; I'll just
critique it as it develops. This is just a model of one consumer. When we
get the hang of modeling one consumer, we can model N consumers, and then
turn to modeling producer, then M producers. Then we can try running both
models together. Step by step. Just exploring to see what will happen.

Excellent. I am not ready to try that for another few weeks maybe.
But I can watch what you are doing. Here are three framework tasks
that I see remaining. I am working on #1. I am getting the simple
and unconditional framework stuff nailed down.

1. Describe what the user will see on the monitor. It has to be
graphical and engaging.
2. Describing the framework that will support #1
3. Describing what 'things' will be used for decision-making (Bill is
working on this)

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.04.0705 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.04.0730 CST) --

SW: What you are saying is that you have a selection of goods that have a
list of properties which and each property has a satisfaction value.
For example, the product 'Ice Cream' satisfies 1) hunger X by amount,
2) the desire to socialize Y amount * the number of friend who might
select ice Cream, 3) the desire to stay busy by z amount, etc.

BP: Not quite, but yes. Each of these should be expressed as the numerical value of the present amount of a variable: amount of ice cream, number of friends, degree of busy-ness, and so on, with some suitable measure of each. Then there is a reference level for each amount: how much ice cream, how many friends, how busy one is aiming for. The level required for satisfaction is not in the perception, but is specified by the reference signal. The amount of ice cream that satisfies one person'e reference for ice cream might be too much for another person and not enough for a third. So it can't be the ice cream that "has" the value -- or as economists say, the "utility."

SW: To get the item, you either have it come to you or you go to it.

BP: Yes. Mainly, however, you have to pay for it as you transfer it from the supplier's inventory to yours and transfer the price from your bank account (or mattress) to the supplier's.

>BP earlier: I'm not trying to make things more difficult, just trying to >show that what we need to give the model are properties, not behaviors. The >behaviors will emerge from the properties.

SW: OK. You stay focused on making the model receive input, make
decisions, and make output. I will stay focused on the ones and
zeros. My goal is to build an App that you can start and stop and
configure and play with. Also, my goal is to have an app that will
predict the flow of money/goods and services through a society given
certain initial conditions.

BP: This is where you have to adjust the parameters of the model so it behaves as nearly like the real system as possible. First, when we get far enough to make this possible, the model has to match the real flows as observed over some period in the past, and from that make a correct pseudo-prediction of data from just after that period ("pseudo" because we actually know the result already but are pretending we don't). You get the initial conditions from the last verified state of the economy before the model is started up.

SW: For the example above, it may turn out that going to a 'store' or
location versus having it come to you, is all that is needed for the
model. The Store itself can be modeled as fulfilling a need and you
do not need to model the actual products. If that is the case, then
you do not need to model 'picking up and item'. I guess we just model
the results of a behavior. Hunger level is at x, socialization need
is at Y, money level is at Z, etc. for this controller and money level
and goods(if appropriate) reset in the 'providing' controller.

BP: That will work better if you express the states of the items in terms of error signals: hunger error at X, socialization error at Y, money error at Z, and ditto for the goods. The error will simply produce an output of money (or for inputing money, an output of labor time) that affects the flow of money and goods. The object is to achieve as close to zero error as possible. The aggregate effect will be the sum of all these effects over all the consumers, each with some distribution of preferences and reference levels. The control systems themselves, without further direction, will seek the state of minimum achievable overall error.

We DO need to model the actual products, at least by category like "food", and the actual exchanges of money for them. That's how you get the model to produce behavior. We don't need to model how the consumer and the goods get together unless there's some unusual cost in goods and services involved, like driving 200 miles to get the product one bought. Then we just add that to the price.

You have to think quantitatively, not just qualitatively. A store doesn't just "fulfill a need" or not; you pay a certain amount of the money you have to a store (or more generally, a producer) to obtain some of the good you need, and keep paying more until you have as much as you want, or until a conflict arises with spending money on something else you need just as much (this is where the phenomena of supply and demand and price theory get into the act).

Where you get the good doesn't matter in a simple model. It will matter when there is more than one source and each store has different prices.
Goods are used up or depreciate at a certain rate, depleting the consumer's inventory, so they have to be replenished at that same rate by spending money to keep the inventory of each good at the desired level (for services, it's the frequency of use that has to be maintained since there is no inventory. Or maybe it's something like the rate at which grass and hair grow, or houses get dirty). Likewise, spending money depletes the inventory of money, which must be replaced by wages or capital income to keep the level of reserves at the desired level. If you allow credit in the system, the money inventory can go negative. Otherwise, the spending stops when the money is gone.

The properties of the economy are determined in part by the loop gains and reference levels for each good that are set by each consumer, or rather by all of them together.

>BP earlier: I suggest that we tackle something really simple and see how it >goes. That will make a lot of things clearer.

SW: Excellent. I am not ready to try that for another few weeks maybe.
But I can watch what you are doing. Here are three framework tasks
that I see remaining. I am working on #1. I am getting the simple
and unconditional framework stuff nailed down.

BP: Hey, I'm not doing it, you are. I'm the one driving from the back seat. We need your framework tasks in any case, but that's just getting ready to start the modeling. Let's set up one control system for each inventory of goods and one for the money reserves, with arbitrary reference levels and gains that we can play with. Then we model the way money is used to adjust the goods inventories upward and the way use or depreciation adjusts them downward, with the complementary effects, plus the effects of income, on the money inventories. These control systems make up our model of one consumer.

I'll gladly supply anything needed to overcome the start of the learning curve -- just say what you're baffled about, if anything, and I'll try to fix it. I'll turn the helm over to you at any time you wish (remembering that the pilot has legal control until the ship gets out of the harbor and you can dump him overboard).

I think you'll very quickly get a nice law of supply and demand out of this (not to mention the Giffen Effect when income is too low). You can change prices and see the effects. Likewise you can change reference levels and loop gains. Much later, these changes will occur through actions by other parts of the model, but for now this model is just a disconnected fragment. The idea is always to have a fragment that runs, with the missing parts replaced by independent variables we can simply set to different values to see what the local effects of remote causes would be. We don't have to wait for the whole model to be finished before we can see how we're doing.

Would you like a simple practice problem to work on just to get your feet wet?

Here's one. A consumer wishes to have Rg amount of goods ("R"eference amount, subcategory "g"oods). The goods inventory already contains N units of goods. The goods cost Cg for each unit. The customer's money inventory stands at M dollars to start with. Write a control system model for bringing N to the value Rg, by spending money from the inventory M. For various initial values of the variables, determine whether the desired amount of goods will be obtained. Don't calculate it yourself; make the model show you the answer.

Hint: M is not allowed to go negative.

Second hint: make the rates of buying and spending be per minute, so only very small amounts are exchanged in one minute. You need B bananas per week, which is B/10080 banana per minute. Setting dt = 0.0001 week, we can calculate the amount of spending on bananas during one iteration of the program which represents one minute of real time.

$ = Cg*B*dt
  where $ = dollars spent in one interval of dt minutes.

This will give a smoothed-out picture of something that actually occurs in jumps, but you can always make dt larger if you wish.

Best,

Bill P.

[Shannon Williams (2011.08.04.1030 CST)]

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.04.0705 MDT)]

SW: What you are saying is that you have a selection of goods that have a
list of properties which and each property has a satisfaction value.
For example, the product 'Ice Cream' satisfies 1) hunger X by amount,
2) the desire to socialize Y amount * the number of friend who might
select ice Cream, 3) the desire to stay busy by z amount, etc.

BP: Not quite, but yes. Each of these should be expressed as the numerical
value of the present amount of a variable: amount of ice cream, number of
friends, degree of busy-ness, and so on, with some suitable measure of each.
Then there is a reference level for each amount: how much ice cream, how
many friends, how busy one is aiming for. The level required for
satisfaction is not in the perception, but is specified by the reference
signal. The amount of ice cream that satisfies one person'e reference for
ice cream might be too much for another person and not enough for a third.
So it can't be the ice cream that "has" the value -- or as economists say,
the "utility."

So each person has a list of controlledVariables. Each
controlledVariable has a currentPercievedLevel and a
referenceLevelTarget.

Each item or service has a list of [noun1]. And each [noun1] has the
potential to affect the various percievedLevels of a person. Can you
give a name to [noun1]?

BP: This is where you have to adjust the parameters of the model so it
behaves as nearly like the real system as possible. First, when we get far
enough to make this possible, the model has to match the real flows as
observed over some period in the past, and from that make a correct
pseudo-prediction of data from just after that period ("pseudo" because we
actually know the result already but are pretending we don't). You get the
initial conditions from the last verified state of the economy before the
model is started up.

Agreed.

BP: That will work better if you express the states of the items in terms of
error signals: hunger error at X, socialization error at Y, money error at
Z, and ditto for the goods. The error will simply produce an output of money
(or for inputing money, an output of labor time) that affects the flow of
money and goods. The object is to achieve as close to zero error as
possible. The aggregate effect will be the sum of all these effects over all
the consumers, each with some distribution of preferences and reference
levels. The control systems themselves, without further direction, will seek
the state of minimum achievable overall error.

Yep. I see it. sweet! and simple- once we figure out the error calculation.

We DO need to model the actual products, at least by category like "food",
and the actual exchanges of money for them. That's how you get the model to
produce behavior. We don't need to model how the consumer and the goods get
together unless there's some unusual cost in goods and services involved,
like driving 200 miles to get the product one bought. Then we just add that
to the price.

OK. Cool.

You have to think quantitatively, not just qualitatively. A store doesn't
just "fulfill a need" or not; you pay a certain amount of the money you have
to a store (or more generally, a producer) to obtain some of the good you
need, and keep paying more until you have as much as you want, or until a
conflict arises with spending money on something else you need just as much
(this is where the phenomena of supply and demand and price theory get into
the act).

Where you get the good doesn't matter in a simple model. It will matter when
there is more than one source and each store has different prices.
Goods are used up or depreciate at a certain rate, depleting the consumer's
inventory, so they have to be replenished at that same rate by spending
money to keep the inventory of each good �at the desired level (for
services, it's the frequency of use that has to be maintained since there is
no inventory. Or maybe it's something like the rate at which grass and hair
grow, or houses get dirty). Likewise, spending money depletes the inventory
of money, which must be replaced by wages or capital income to keep the
level of reserves at the desired level. If you allow credit in the system,
the money inventory can go negative. Otherwise, the spending stops when the
money is gone.

OK.

BP: Hey, I'm not doing it, you are. I'm the one driving from the back seat.
�We need your framework tasks in any case, but that's just getting ready to
start the modeling. Let's set up one control system for each inventory of
goods and one for the money reserves, with arbitrary reference levels and
gains that we can play with. Then we model the way money is used to adjust
the goods inventories upward and the way use or depreciation adjusts them
downward, with the complementary effects, plus the effects of income, on the
money inventories. These control systems make up our model of one consumer.

OK. I can work these parts out. We need a good solid model for
generating the error signals from the above. Once the decision is
made, it is easy to model the transfer of money/good and services.

I think you'll very quickly get a nice law of supply and demand out of this
(not to mention the Giffen Effect when income is too low). You can change
prices and see the effects.

Yes!!

The idea is always to have a fragment that runs, with the missing parts
replaced by independent variables we can simply set to different values to
see what the local effects of remote causes would be. We don't have to wait
for the whole model to be finished before we can see how we're doing.

Yes. this will definitely be made of components that can be added and extended.

Would you like a simple practice problem to work on just to get your feet
wet?

Not yet for me. I am following a design process. I would list the
rules (controlled variables) that are guiding me, but they are not up
for debate, and I do not have time to debate them. Essentially, we
can build the body of the app except for the heart. Right now I need
to focus on what organs the heart will need to interact with. I do
not even need to know what inputs and outputs it will need (these will
be configurable).

Maybe Martin or Adam or Rick or Gavin can tackle your puzzle right now?

Thanks,
Shannon

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.04.12021 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.04.1030 CST)

Maybe Martin or Adam or Rick or Gavin can tackle your puzzle right now?

Sure. I thought I'd give you first try, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

Best,

Bill P.

Hey,

Just letting you know that I will be on vacation and traveling during
the next ten days. Also Bill, we will be in Denver for a few days. Is
that where you live? I am not sure how much unscheduled time we have,
but we could try to meet if you like.

Take Care,
Shannon

···

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2011.08.04.12021 MDT)]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.04.1030 CST)

Maybe Martin or Adam or Rick or Gavin can tackle your puzzle right now?

Sure. I thought I'd give you first try, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Adam Matic 2011.08.06 12.00 CET]

Shannon Williams (2011.08.04.1030 CST)

Maybe Martin or Adam or Rick or Gavin can tackle your puzzle right now?

AM: I’m on it.
Having some problems with my computer, but I think I’ll be done in a week or so.

Best, Adam