The PCT Persuasion

From Bill Powers (2009.09.28.0246 MDT)]

The PCT Persuasion

A persuasion is both a frame of mind and an active process. I mean the title above in both senses. It is time for us in the Control System Group and who communicate by CSGnet to give up internal nit-picking, sniping, and nostalgia for the past, turn our attention outward, and begin a project to persuade all the behavioral sciences that the control system model of living systems is the only correct one among all the others. That claim may not remain true forever, but it is probably the truth as most of those who discuss PCT on the internet see it today. We can let the future take care of itself. Those for whom it is not true are free to observe until they are either persuaded to join in or decide to seek enlightenment elsewhere.

A good many years ago, Tom Bourbon and I wrote a paper called "Models and their Worlds." In it we compared three models as possible explanations of a human subject's performance in a simple task. The first we called the Stimulus-Response model, in which the sight of a moving target caused the response of moving a hand holding a mouse; the hand, mouse, and thus the cursor moved in the same pattern as the movements of the target. The second we called the "cognitive" model, in which the required movements of the hand were calculated according to previous experience with the moving target, and then executed. The third was, of course, the PCT model. We then systematically showed the conditions under which all three theories could correctly predict the observed behavior, then the conditions that would invalidate first the SR model and then both the SR and the cognitive models -- with only the control-system model predicting properly in all three cases.

I propose that those of us who can develop computer models devise more advanced demonstrations along the same lines, expanding this approach (with everyone contributing) by applying it to every current theoretical position held in the behavioral sciences. Those not versed in model-making can then help carry out the persuasion by taking the demonstrations to others of their professional and personal acquaintance and using them to show why only PCT makes sense.

I am proposing, to make this clearer, that we convert CSGnet from a discussion group into a workshop and that we combine our efforts to achieve a goal.

As a starter, here is an idea for showing how both the cognitive model and the SR model can be morphed into the PCT model simply by adjusting a few parameters of a general model. This can actually be done using the "Live Block Diagram" in LCS3, but the morphing process could be made much easier to do. Also, setting up the demonstration as representing a pursuit tracking task will make the distinctions clearer. The object in pursuit tracking is to make the cursor follow a target rather than stabilizing a variable at a fixed reference level.

The live block diagram can be converted to an SR model by setting the reference signal to zero and the feedback function's gain to zero, then adjusting the input gain and output gain and time constant to give a reasonable speed and size of response to the target movements. The SR model will fail when a disturbance is applied to the cursor so its position does not follow the changes of the system's output.

The cognitive model is represented by setting the input function's gain to zero. Then changes in the reference signal will pass through the comparator and the output function, then from the output through the feedback function to the cursor position. If the reference signal is given dynamic patterns of the right kind, the cursor position can be made to vary in correspondence to the target in just the way it does with the control system. The cognitive model will fail when disturbances are applied to the input quantity, because the system does not continuously sense the input quantity. It will also fail when the target moves in a novel way not experienced in the past, since in the cognitive model the required reference signal variations have to be calculated from past experience with the target movements.

The point is not just that the two other models can be made to fail. It's that by adjusting the parameters of the model, either the SR or the cognitive model can be converted smoothly and simply into a PCT model that succeeds in the tracking task for all three conditions. I think this will be the clincher that was missing from "Models and their Worlds." It should show very directly how PCT is related to earlier theories, and exactly what the control-system model can do that none of the existing models can do. Sheer stubbornness aside, I think this will persuade most people that PCT is the next stage in behavioral science.

PROGRAMMERS, START YOUR ENGINES.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Fred Nickols (2009.09.28.0822)]

Where can I find a copy of the Powers-Bourbon paper you mention?

···

--
Regards,

Fred Nickols
Managing Partner
Distance Consulting, LLC
nickols@att.net
www.nickols.us

"Assistance at A Distance"
  
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET>

From Bill Powers (2009.09.28.0246 MDT)]

The PCT Persuasion

A persuasion is both a frame of mind and an active process. I mean
the title above in both senses. It is time for us in the Control
System Group and who communicate by CSGnet to give up internal
nit-picking, sniping, and nostalgia for the past, turn our attention
outward, and begin a project to persuade all the behavioral sciences
that the control system model of living systems is the only correct
one among all the others. That claim may not remain true forever, but
it is probably the truth as most of those who discuss PCT on the
internet see it today. We can let the future take care of itself.
Those for whom it is not true are free to observe until they are
either persuaded to join in or decide to seek enlightenment elsewhere.

A good many years ago, Tom Bourbon and I wrote a paper called "Models
and their Worlds." In it we compared three models as possible
explanations of a human subject's performance in a simple task. The
first we called the Stimulus-Response model, in which the sight of a
moving target caused the response of moving a hand holding a mouse;
the hand, mouse, and thus the cursor moved in the same pattern as the
movements of the target. The second we called the "cognitive" model,
in which the required movements of the hand were calculated according
to previous experience with the moving target, and then executed. The
third was, of course, the PCT model. We then systematically showed
the conditions under which all three theories could correctly predict
the observed behavior, then the conditions that would invalidate
first the SR model and then both the SR and the cognitive models --
with only the control-system model predicting properly in all three cases.

I propose that those of us who can develop computer models devise
more advanced demonstrations along the same lines, expanding this
approach (with everyone contributing) by applying it to every current
theoretical position held in the behavioral sciences. Those not
versed in model-making can then help carry out the persuasion by
taking the demonstrations to others of their professional and
personal acquaintance and using them to show why only PCT makes sense.

I am proposing, to make this clearer, that we convert CSGnet from a
discussion group into a workshop and that we combine our efforts to
achieve a goal.

As a starter, here is an idea for showing how both the cognitive
model and the SR model can be morphed into the PCT model simply by
adjusting a few parameters of a general model. This can actually be
done using the "Live Block Diagram" in LCS3, but the morphing process
could be made much easier to do. Also, setting up the demonstration
as representing a pursuit tracking task will make the distinctions
clearer. The object in pursuit tracking is to make the cursor follow
a target rather than stabilizing a variable at a fixed reference level.

The live block diagram can be converted to an SR model by setting the
reference signal to zero and the feedback function's gain to zero,
then adjusting the input gain and output gain and time constant to
give a reasonable speed and size of response to the target
movements. The SR model will fail when a disturbance is applied to
the cursor so its position does not follow the changes of the system's output.

The cognitive model is represented by setting the input function's
gain to zero. Then changes in the reference signal will pass through
the comparator and the output function, then from the output through
the feedback function to the cursor position. If the reference signal
is given dynamic patterns of the right kind, the cursor position can
be made to vary in correspondence to the target in just the way it
does with the control system. The cognitive model will fail when
disturbances are applied to the input quantity, because the system
does not continuously sense the input quantity. It will also fail
when the target moves in a novel way not experienced in the past,
since in the cognitive model the required reference signal variations
have to be calculated from past experience with the target movements.

The point is not just that the two other models can be made to fail.
It's that by adjusting the parameters of the model, either the SR or
the cognitive model can be converted smoothly and simply into a PCT
model that succeeds in the tracking task for all three conditions. I
think this will be the clincher that was missing from "Models and
their Worlds." It should show very directly how PCT is related to
earlier theories, and exactly what the control-system model can do
that none of the existing models can do. Sheer stubbornness aside, I
think this will persuade most people that PCT is the next stage in
behavioral science.

PROGRAMMERS, START YOUR ENGINES.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Dag Forssell (2009.09.28.0720 PST)]

[From Fred Nickols (2009.09.28.0822)]

Where can I find a copy of the Powers-Bourbon paper you mention?

Models and Their Worlds by W. Thomas Bourbon and William T. Powers was first published in a special issue edited by Martin Taylor. I do not have it. It is one of those deals where authors give rights to a scientific publisher who turns around and prices the book out of sight. This way, many honest efforts get buried in scientific publications, never to be widely accessible and discussed. At least that is how I understand it.

Secondly, it was published in `Closed Loop, (contents attached) Volume 3, Number 1, Winter 1993. This time, significant to Tom Bourbon, with the complete list of references he had prepared to go with the paper. These references point to works by prominent psychologists who have been very vocal and eloquent in their critique of psychology as a wannabe science.

Closed Loop is available in its entirety for download at ftp.pctresources.com user name: pctstudent password: re5earch!

`Third, it was included as chapter 12 in People as Living Things by Phil Runkel. Same content as Closed Loop.

Of course, you will find it discussed on CSGnet. Easy to find if you download and install the CSGnet archives at the pctresources ftp site.

Best, Dag

CL_content_print.pdf (78 Bytes)

[From Dag Forssell (2009.09.28.0720 PST)]

[From Fred Nickols (2009.09.28.0822)]

Where can I find a copy of the Powers-Bourbon paper you mention?

Models and Their Worlds by W. Thomas Bourbon and William T. Powers
was first published in a special issue edited by Martin Taylor. I do
not have it. It is one of those deals where authors give rights to a
scientific publisher who turns around and prices the book out of
sight. This way, many honest efforts get buried in scientific
publications, never to be widely accessible and discussed. At least
that is how I understand it.

Secondly, it was published in Closed Loop, (contents attached) Volume
3, Number 1, Winter 1993. This time, significant to Tom Bourbon, with
the complete list of references he had prepared to go with the paper.
These references point to works by prominent psychologists who have
been very vocal and eloquent in their critique of psychology as a
wannabe science.

Closed Loop is available in its entirety for download at
ftp.pctresources.com user name: pctstudent password: re5earch!

Third, it was included as chapter 12 in People as Living Things by
Phil Runkel. Same content as Closed Loop.

Of course, you will find it discussed on CSGnet. Easy to find if you
download and install the CSGnet archives at the pctresources ftp site.

Best, Dag

CL_content_print.pdf (37.3 KB)

[From Fred Nickols (2009.09.28.1023 EST)]

Thanks, Dag. I have Phil's book so I can read the Powers-Bourbon paper.

···

--
Regards,

Fred Nickols
Managing Partner
Distance Consulting, LLC
nickols@att.net
www.nickols.us

"Assistance at A Distance"
  
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dag Forssell <csgarchive@PCTRESOURCES.COM>

[From Dag Forssell (2009.09.28.0720 PST)]

>[From Fred Nickols (2009.09.28.0822)]
>
>Where can I find a copy of the Powers-Bourbon paper you mention?

Models and Their Worlds by W. Thomas Bourbon and William T. Powers
was first published in a special issue edited by Martin Taylor. I do
not have it. It is one of those deals where authors give rights to a
scientific publisher who turns around and prices the book out of
sight. This way, many honest efforts get buried in scientific
publications, never to be widely accessible and discussed. At least
that is how I understand it.

Secondly, it was published in Closed Loop, (contents attached) Volume
3, Number 1, Winter 1993. This time, significant to Tom Bourbon, with
the complete list of references he had prepared to go with the paper.
These references point to works by prominent psychologists who have
been very vocal and eloquent in their critique of psychology as a
wannabe science.

Closed Loop is available in its entirety for download at
ftp.pctresources.com user name: pctstudent password: re5earch!

Third, it was included as chapter 12 in People as Living Things by
Phil Runkel. Same content as Closed Loop.

Of course, you will find it discussed on CSGnet. Easy to find if you
download and install the CSGnet archives at the pctresources ftp site.

Best, Dag

[From Rick Marken (2009.90.28.1340)]

Bill Powers (2009.09.28.0246 MDT)–

It is time for us in the Control System Group and who communicate by CSGnet to give up internal nit-picking, sniping, and nostalgia for the past, turn our attention outward, and begin a project to persuade all the behavioral sciences that the control system model of living systems is the only correct one among all the others.

Gee, why didn’t I think of that? Oh, that’s right, I did think of it, 30 years ago. That’s why I published all those papers in behavioral science journals. I thought that I was trying to “persuade all the behavioral sciences that the control system model of
living systems is the only correct one among all the others”, but maybe not.

I propose that those of us who can develop computer models devise more advanced demonstrations along the same lines, expanding this approach (with everyone contributing) by applying it to every current theoretical position held in the behavioral sciences.

So it’s computer models that do the persuading. I’ve done some of that, too; I’ve even put some up on the net. I guess my programs just aren’t as persuasive as they should be.

I am proposing, to make this clearer, that we convert CSGnet from a discussion group into a workshop and that we combine our efforts to achieve a goal.

You can’t have a workshop without workers.

As a starter, here is an idea for showing how both the cognitive model and the SR model can be morphed into the PCT model simply by adjusting a few parameters of a general model.

A very nice idea.

The point is not just that the two other models can be made to fail. It’s that by adjusting the parameters of the model, either the SR or the cognitive model can be converted smoothly and simply into a PCT model that succeeds in the tracking task for all three conditions. I think this will be the clincher that was missing from “Models and their Worlds.” It should show very directly how PCT is related to earlier theories, and exactly what the control-system model can do that none of the existing models can do. Sheer stubbornness aside, I think this will persuade most people that PCT is the next stage in behavioral science.

I doubt it. I had great hopes for some of my demonstrations too. I think the problem is that in order to be persuaded by these demos people have to have a good grasp of modeling and how models inform our understanding of phenomena. And on top of that they also have to have no investment in the correctness of an existing model. The intersection of those two sets people is very small and it is only these people that we would be building the model for. I say this not to inhibit these efforts but just to temper expectations about what the results of doing this might be. I think the number of people in the behavioral sciences who can be persuaded that PCT is the next stage in behavioral science (let alone understand what that means) is a very small number indeed.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2009.09.28.2009 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2009.90.28.1340) –

Bill Powers (2009.09.28.0246 MDT)–

It is time for us in the Control System Group and who communicate by
CSGnet to give up internal nit-picking, sniping, and nostalgia for the
past, turn our attention outward, and begin a project to persuade all the
behavioral sciences that the control system model of living systems is
the only correct one among all the others.

RM: Gee, why didn’t I think of that? Oh, that’s right, I did think of
it, 30 years ago. That’s why I published all those papers in behavioral
science journals. I thought that I was trying to “persuade all the
behavioral sciences that the control system model of living systems is
the only correct one among all the others”, but maybe not.

BP: Yes, I thought of it, too, at least that long ago, but evidently
didn’t accomplish it any more successfully than you did. We have been too
often sidetracked and have wasted a lot of time and energy overcoming
internal friction in the CSG.

BP earlier: I propose that those of us who can develop computer
models devise more advanced demonstrations along the same lines,
expanding this approach (with everyone contributing) by applying it to
every current theoretical position held in the behavioral sciences.

RM: So it’s computer models that do the persuading. I’ve done some of
that, too; I’ve even put some up on the net. I guess my programs just
aren’t as persuasive as they should be.

BP: Yes, I believe that’s the problem. Neither are mine.

BP Earlier: I am proposing, to make this clearer, that we convert
CSGnet from a discussion group into a workshop and that we combine our
efforts to achieve a goal.

RM: You can’t have a workshop without workers.

BP: Correct. Are you going to be one of them? One of the requirements for
a successful workshop is an atmosphere of detached assessment in which
egos are less important that results. If flaws are detected they should
be laid out and discussed, along with suggestions for improvements. It
doesn’t matter who detects them or who corrects them.

BP Earlier: As a starter, here is an idea for showing how both the
cognitive model and the SR model can be morphed into the PCT model simply
by adjusting a few parameters of a general model.

RM: A very nice idea.

BP Earlier: The point is not just that the two other models can be
made to fail. It’s that by adjusting the parameters of the model, either
the SR or the cognitive model can be converted smoothly and simply into a
PCT model that succeeds in the tracking task for all three conditions. I
think this will be the clincher that was missing from “Models and
their Worlds.” It should show very directly how PCT is related to
earlier theories, and exactly what the control-system model can do that
none of the existing models can do. Sheer stubbornness aside, I think
this will persuade most people that PCT is the next stage in behavioral
science.

RM: I doubt it. I had great hopes for some of my demonstrations too.

BP: I think your great hopes came too often from not looking critically
enough at what you developed. You always gave your own work the highest
of marks, when there were still flaws in it. Your basic conceptions are
very ingenious and informative, but the presentation tends to be sketchy
and hard to understand, partly because of the crude graphics and partly
for lack of careful clear labeling and explanation. These are problems
you can do something about, which means that your chances of being
understood are probably a lot higher than you think they are. Since the
ideas you have to communicate are important ones and worth teaching,
polishing up your methods is worth every bit of effort it will take. Take
some courses in computer graphics. Then your demos will look better than
all the others.

What we can do with the cognitive and SR theories to show their
relationship to PCT can also be done with other theories. We may not
always be able to devise an interactive computer model to illustrate the
relationship, but there are other kinds of demonstrations. In my
experience, demonstrations always persuade better than mere words do;
it’s important to experience the variables in relation to each other even
if a person doesn’t know what variables are. The demonstrations provide
experiences to which we can then attach the words.

RM: I think the problem is that
in order to be persuaded by these demos people have to have a good grasp
of modeling and how models inform our understanding of phenomena. And on
top of that they also have to have no investment in the correctness of an
existing model. The intersection of those two sets people is very small
and it is only these people that we would be building the model for. I
say this not to inhibit these efforts but just to temper expectations
about what the results of doing this might be. I think the number of
people in the behavioral sciences who can be persuaded that PCT is
the next stage in behavioral science (let alone understand what that
means) is a very small number indeed.

BP: I don’t think it will get us anywhere to blame the readers for not
understanding what we write or program. I don’t agree with your
assessment any more than I agree with Dag that only engineers can
understand PCT. When people don’t understand what I say I try to find out
why and correct my mistakes. Of course we all understand exactly what was
meant when we read our own words with approval. But other people who
don’t already understand what we’re saying can easily pick unintended
messages out of hastily written sentences: “I threw the horse over
the fence some hay.” And when you neglect to mention something
obvious that the reader doesn’t know, but needs to know to understand
what you mean, that’s your fault as a writer, not the reader’s fault. If
the reader already knew what you know, you wouldn’t need to write
anything. If not, it’s up to you to explain. Blaming the reader is a
cop-out.

What I’m proposing is that we adopt the intent of converting the
behavioral sciences to PCT in the next few years. Let that intention
shape our actions. Whether we succeed will depend on factors beyond our
control, but equally on factors we can control. As we know, that is
generally all that’s needed for successful control.

The main thing is to stop squabbling about trivia and start cooperating
toward the main goal we have always had.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.09.28.2235)]

Bill Powers (2009.09.28.2009 MDT)]

BP: Yes, I thought of it, too, at least that long ago, but evidently
didn’t accomplish it any more successfully than you did. We have been too
often sidetracked and have wasted a lot of time and energy overcoming
internal friction in the CSG.

How is this “sidetracked”? The friction, whether from inside or outside CSG, is simply people who are not persuaded about some aspect of PCT. When this happens do we just continue on and ignore the misapprehensions? I think it’s often useful to deal with them; that’s part of persuading, no? I’ve gotten several ideas for research based on some of these “sidetracks”.

RM: So it’s computer models that do the persuading. I’ve done some of
that, too; I’ve even put some up on the net. I guess my programs just
aren’t as persuasive as they should be.

BP: Yes, I believe that’s the problem. Neither are mine.

I wasn’t being facetious. I agree, the demos have not been persuasive.

RM: You can’t have a workshop without workers.

BP: Correct. Are you going to be one of them? One of the requirements for
a successful workshop is an atmosphere of detached assessment in which
egos are less important that results. If flaws are detected they should
be laid out and discussed, along with suggestions for improvements. It
doesn’t matter who detects them or who corrects them.

Of course. I’d love to be part of a workshop like that. I think we can do it with the economic model. But I’m not very comfortable working in Delphi; I’d rather work in java because of the platform independence but I’m not that good at that. But maybe I could work more as the systems person and those who can program in Delphi best can produce the code; I’m sure I could read it fine.

RM: I doubt it. I had great hopes for some of my demonstrations too.

BP: I think your great hopes came too often from not looking critically
enough at what you developed. You always gave your own work the highest
of marks, when there were still flaws in it.

It’s more laziness than self-satisfaction; but both sins are probably equally bad;-)

BP: I don’t think it will get us anywhere to blame the readers for not
understanding what we write or program. I don’t agree with your
assessment any more than I agree with Dag that only engineers can
understand PCT…Blaming the reader is a
cop-out.

I agree. I don’t blame the reader any more;:wink:

The main thing is to stop squabbling about trivia and start cooperating
toward the main goal we have always had.

OK, but it would help if I could get a definition of trivia. Is the discussion about “information in perception” about trivia? It doesn’t seem like it to me.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com