The power-law dispute as an intractable conflict

[From Kent McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)]

Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months have seen several threads emerge relating to the power law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing curved paths have been found to follow the power law, which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a new kind of behavioral illusion.

Silent followers of these threads on CSGnet have had, no doubt, quite a number of different perceptions about them. My own feeling has been a hope that this controversy would soon be over and that messages about the power law would stop filling my inbox (just as I’ve been longing for a quick end to the American presidential election campaign). Nevertheless, these threads have held some interest for me in one respect. From my perspective as someone who has sought to apply PCT to understanding social conflicts, this online dispute seems to be an excellent example of what in international relations is called an “intractable�? conflict.

Many ethnic and religious conflicts, for example, are so entrenched, over so many generations, that there seems to be no possibility that they will ever be resolved. While I hope the power law controversy is not going to last for generations, at the moment it seems firmly entrenched and shows no sign of abating.

By my rough count, the threads connected with the power law dispute have included well over 200 posts. Something like half of these posts have been from Rick Marken, and the content of almost all of his posts has been his repeated assertion that his spreadsheet model for explaining the power law findings is correct in every particular and always has been. The other half of the posts have come from a variety of contributors, initially Alex Gomez-Marin, but recently Bruce Abbott, Martin Taylor, and a few others, and the content of most of their posts has been to call into question the logic and mathematics underlying Rick’s claims.

This dispute has followed the classic pattern of a social conflict that escalates until it reaches a kind of stalemate, where neither side is willing to budge, so that the conflict drags on and on without any resolution or lowering of the intensity. Following that classic pattern, each escalation of effort on one side of the power-law dispute has been met by an equal and opposite reaction from the other side. The initial exchange between Alex and Rick eventually escalated into a testy exchange of emails about bullshit, and Alex then exited from the dispute, apparently in disgust. Martin and Bruce carried the controversy on, and when Bruce escalated the intensity by invoking the Gulliver’s Travels motif, Rick answered post for post. Martin’s detailed expositions of the mathematical flaws in Rick’s reasoning have similarly been answered by dueling equations from Rick.

As I have been thinking about how PCT can be applied to social conflicts like this one, my conclusion has been that the way to resolve interpersonal disputes is in much the same way that, according to Method-of-Levels therapists like Tim Carey and Warren Mansell, intrapersonal conflicts can be resolved: by “going up a level.�? To resolve a social conflict, the disputants need to agree on some higher-level perceptions that they can collectively control, and which will then remove the need for them pursue their control of the lower-level perceptions that have been the source of conflict (because of the incompatible reference values that the disputants have had for controlling them).

Violent hostilities in the international arena, for example, sometimes come to an end when both sides agree that they have suffered enough, and the higher-level perception that they then can collectively control takes the form of a peace treaty in which both sides make some concessions, although the losers of the conflict typically have to make far more concessions than the winners.

In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are right or wrong. But might there be there any higher-level perceptions that the disputants could agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?

On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normal�? science. If mathematics is the language of science, to be scientific a researcher must be able to offer mathematical formulations that are transparent to other scientists and logically sound. By this principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

On the other side of the dispute, Rick has apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the principles of normal science. His repeated response to the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in his position has not been to fix the errors, or even to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his. The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling clearly do not include the normal-science injunction that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free from errors.

What then might be the higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own position? I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University library. On that occasion, the message I took home from his presentation was that he was tired of trying to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether anybody else likes it or not.

My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one right way to do PCT research, and perpetually embattled against the forces of scientific error besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly confines of CSGnet.

What are the chances that I am right about this hypothesis? As Rick himself has often told us, the point of psychological research with PCT is to figure out the perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this hypothesized perception (until now, at least) to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems to me that the power-law threads can be taken together as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception Rick is controlling. Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one true scientist involved in the dispute.

If I am right in my hypothesis about the perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal from him explaining in detail why my analysis is incorrect and perhaps even going so far as to reject my pretentions to being a scholar of PCT. if so, I don’t intend to respond to a message like that, because it’s obvious that getting embroiled in an online controversy with Rick is a losing battle. If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I'm wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the perception he’s controlling.

As to the scientific credentials of the various disputants, CSGnet regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s scientific work to take a look at these two websites:

https://agomezmarin.com/
https://behavior-of-organisms.org/

In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has already amassed an amazing publication record in several related scientific fields. He seems like exactly the kind of person who might be capable of carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his research.

My best to all,

Kent

[Martin Taylor 2016.08.21.17.20]

[From Kent McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)]

Interesting food for thought. Thanks for that.

  Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months have seen several threads emerge relating to the power law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing curved paths have been found to follow the power law, which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a new kind of behavioral illusion....
  In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are right or wrong. But might there be there any higher-level perceptions that the disputants could agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?
  On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normal�? science. If mathematics is the language of science, to be scientific a researcher must be able to offer mathematical formulations that are transparent to other scientists and logically sound. By this principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when pointed out, must be immediately fixed.
  On the other side of the dispute, Rick has apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the principles of normal science.

I think you put your finger on the core problem. It's one that has been at the heart of many of my prolonged exchanges with Rick, at least as I perceive it. I'll leave it to others, including Rick, to comment on your suggestion as to the top-level controlled perception that might be the overarching driver. I have a separate proposal, not perhaps at such a high level. When I look back on 25 years of interaction with CSGnet, the perception that PCT is a "revolution" always seems to be tightly controlled. While I agree that as I perceive "revolution" PCT is indeed revolutionary, I believe that Rick controls a perception that this implies that PCT is not subject to normal science. It has transcended normal science.

Treating my various disturbances as part of a TCV, Rick's control actions usually seem strongest whenever I propose using some tools available widely to the scientific community. Since Mary's message quotes it, I use information theory as an example. Looked at from a "normal science" viewpoint, information theory can be an analytical tool analogous to (and indeed convertible to) Analysis of Variance. It can also be used to provide envelopes of possibility that are relevant to control. When Allan Randall and I attempted an information-theoretic analysis of control, Rick strongly objected on the grounds that the perceptual signal carried no information about the disturbance, "none, nada". When Allan and I demonstrated that the disturbance was completely recoverable from a knowledge of the output and the perception, but not from the output alone, which in normal science would be considered a proof that the perception contains information about the disturbance, Rick's devastating counter was that a controlled perception contains no information about the disturbance.

That's far from a unique example, the current power-law dispute being but the latest. The use of normal science tools is forbidden to a scientific revolutionary, and since PCT must be revolutionary, therefore the tools and methods of normal science are irrelevant. Attempts to show how normal science tools apply to a PCT problem are evidence that the tool user is an enemy of PCT, or worse, a heretic, when the tool user had been presumed to be a friend of PCT.

Thanks very much for making this, which had been nebulous in my mind, suddenly perfectly clear.

Martin

···

  His repeated response to the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in his position has not been to fix the errors, or even to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his. The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling clearly do not include the normal-science injunction that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free from errors.
  What then might be the higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own position? I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University library. On that occasion, the message I took home from his presentation was that he was tired of trying to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether anybody else likes it or not.
  My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one right way to do PCT research, and perpetually embattled against the forces of scientific error besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly confines of CSGnet.
  What are the chances that I am right about this hypothesis? As Rick himself has often told us, the point of psychological research with PCT is to figure out the perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this hypothesized perception (until now, at least) to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems to me that the power-law threads can be taken together as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception Rick is controlling. Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one true scientist involved in the dispute.
  If I am right in my hypothesis about the perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal from him explaining in detail why my analysis is incorrect and perhaps even going so far as to reject my pretentions to being a scholar of PCT. if so, I don’t intend to respond to a message like that, because it’s obvious that getting embroiled in an online controversy with Rick is a losing battle. If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I'm wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the perception he’s controlling.
  As to the scientific credentials of the various disputants, CSGnet regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s scientific work to take a look at these two websites:
  https://agomezmarin.com/
https://behavior-of-organisms.org/
  In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has already amassed an amazing publication record in several related scientific fields. He seems like exactly the kind of person who might be capable of carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his research.
  My best to all,
  Kent

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.21.2300)]

···

 Kent McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)

KM: Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months have seen several threads emerge relating to the power law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing curved paths have been found to follow the power law, which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a new kind of behavioral illusion.

RM: Yes, exactly.

Â

KM: From my perspective as someone who has sought to apply PCT to understanding social conflicts, this online dispute seems to be an excellent example of what in international relations is called an “intractableâ€? conflict.

RM: Yes, all real conflicts are intractable in the sense that there is no solution at the level of the conflict will allow all parties to the conflict to achieve the goals that are are in conflict.Â

Â

KM: Many ethnic and religious conflicts, for example, are so entrenched, over so many generations, that there seems to be no possibility that they will ever be resolved. While I hope the power law controversy is not going to last for generations, at the moment it seems firmly entrenched and shows no sign of abating.

RM: Scientific conflicts are the same. It should be possible to resolve them by empirical test, where the results of the test show which party to the conflict is right and which is wrong. But it’s rarely that simple. This is why scientific conflicts can go on for quite a long time.Â

Â

KM:  according to Method-of-Levels therapists like Tim Carey and Warren Mansell, intrapersonal conflicts can be resolved: by “going up a level.â€?Â

RM: Yes. Â

Â

KM: In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are right or wrong. But might there be there any higher-level perceptions that the disputants could agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?

KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normalâ€? science. If mathematics is the language of science, to be scientific a researcher must be able to offer mathematical formulations that are transparent to other scientists and logically sound. By this principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

KM: On the other side of the dispute, Rick has apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the principles of normal science. His repeated response to the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in his position has not been to fix the errors, or even to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his. The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling clearly do not include the normal-science injunction that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free from errors.

RM: I don’t think this is really going up a level. I see the appeal to mathematical arguments as the means used by each side to try to bring the perception of the meaning of the power law – the perception that I see as being in conflict – to the goal state of each party.Â

RM: I see “going up a level” as either party becoming aware of higher level controlled perceptions, control of which is degraded by failure to get the conflicted perception into it’s goal state.Â

KM: What then might be the higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own position?

RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in the conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions that are relevant to solving the conflicts are the perceptions each party to the conflict is controlled that requires that they set the goal for the conflicted perception in different goal states. What, for example, am I controlling that requires that I set a goal for showing that the power law is an example of a behavioral illusion?; what is everyone else controlling for that requires that they set a goal for showing that it is not?

Â

KM : I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University library. On that occasion, the message I took home from his presentation was that he was tired of trying to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether anybody else likes it or not.

RM: Yes, that’s close. I wouldn’t say that I no longer have the goal of spreading the word about PCT; but I am trying to concentrate on doing my own brand of PCT research, which, from years of working with Bill, I believe to be the correct brand of PCT. So while I would like others to like my brand of PCT I do have the goal of not letting others dislike of my brand of PCT affect the way I go about my business.Â

Â

KM: My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one right way to do PCT research, and perpetually embattled against the forces of scientific error besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly confines of CSGnet.

RM: This is a pretty good description of the state of a perception I am controlling for; it’s certainly not the goal state. I would like to be one scientist among many doing “my brand” of PCT and not battling the forces of PCT error besetting me on all sides. This leads me to realize that, as in all interpersonal conflicts (like the one about the power law) there is also an internal conflict. My internal conflict is that I want to do research with colleagues – not as a lone researcher – but I also want to do “my brand” of PCT research (which I do, indeed, think is the right brand). The conflict results from the fact I can’t do both and the power law discussion is a good example. I could do research with colleagues if I could see the power law from the point of view of the power law researchers (and the CSGNet people who see this research as demonstrating something important about movement control; but this would create an error in the system that is controlling for doing “my brand” of PCT, which can’t help seeing the power law as anything other than an example of a behavioral illusion. But when describe research on the power law in a way that achieves my goal of doing “my brand” of PCT I create an error in the system controlling for doing research with colleagues. Right not, the system controlling for doing “my brand” of PCT is controlling with higher gain, so it’s winning the conflict. But in doing so, it’s creating error in the system controlling for “doing research with colleagues”. But apparently that system is controlling with much lower gain. That’s probably what you picked up in my talk at Northwestern; I was really saying that the “my brand of PCT” control system was (and probably will continue) to win the internal conflict with the system controlling for doing research with colleagues.Â

Â

KM: What are the chances that I am right about this hypothesis?

RM: I think you were very close and your description of your hypothesis has helped my become aware of a conflict within my self – the one I just described above – that I don’t think I was consciously aware of before.Â

Â

KM: As Rick himself has often told us, the point of psychological research with PCT is to figure out the perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this hypothesized perception (until now, at least)

RM: Actually, you did. Your statement of the hypothesis was a disturbance that actually helped me better articulate (consciously) the two sides of the conflict I’m dealing with.Â

Â

KM: to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems to me that the power-law threads can be taken together as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception Rick is controlling.

RM: Actually, they can. They certainly show that I am controlling for high gain for “my brand” of PCT. What’s harder to see is that I am also controlling for doing research with colleagues. You could see that I am controlling for doing research with colleagues if the people opposing me were asked to just go along with my ideas (as a test; they don’t have to really believe it). If they did, you would see me enthusiastically join in the research collaborative.

Â

KM: Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one true scientist involved in the dispute.

 RM: I suppose you could describe it that way, yes. That reveals the fact that I am controlling for “my brand” of PCT.

KM: If I am right in my hypothesis about the perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal

RM: That would be true only if I didn’t want you to discover the perception(s) I am controlling, But I’m not ashamed of controlling for “my brand” of PCT; nor am I ashamed of controlling for wanting to do research with colleagues. I just wish these two goals were not in conflict.Â

KM: If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I’m wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the perception he’s controlling.

RM: It turns out that I didn’t come back with a strong rebuttal and you don’t have to admit that yo’re wrong; you were right!

Â

KM: As to the scientific credentials of the various disputants,

RM: I’m well aware of the fact that all the people involved in this discussion are very smart and well credentialed. But thanks for documenting it for us.Â

Best regards

Rick

Â

CSGnet regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s scientific work to take a look at these two websites:

https://agomezmarin.com/

https://behavior-of-organisms.org/

In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has already amassed an amazing publication record in several related scientific fields. He seems like exactly the kind of person who might be capable of carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his research.

My best to all,

Kent


Richard S. MarkenÂ

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

Hi Kent and Rick, a great exchange, lively to witness, and wholly consistent with (H)PCT!

Warren

···

Kent McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)

KM: Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months have seen several threads emerge relating to the power law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing curved paths have been found to follow the power law, which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a new kind of behavioral illusion.

RM: Yes, exactly.

KM: From my perspective as someone who has sought to apply PCT to understanding social conflicts, this online dispute seems to be an excellent example of what in international relations is called an “intractable� conflict.

RM: Yes, all real conflicts are intractable in the sense that there is no solution at the level of the conflict will allow all parties to the conflict to achieve the goals that are are in conflict.

KM: Many ethnic and religious conflicts, for example, are so entrenched, over so many generations, that there seems to be no possibility that they will ever be resolved. While I hope the power law controversy is not going to last for generations, at the moment it seems firmly entrenched and shows no sign of abating.

RM: Scientific conflicts are the same. It should be possible to resolve them by empirical test, where the results of the test show which party to the conflict is right and which is wrong. But it’s rarely that simple. This is why scientific conflicts can go on for quite a long time.

KM: according to Method-of-Levels therapists like Tim Carey and Warren Mansell, intrapersonal conflicts can be resolved: by “going up a level.�

RM: Yes.

KM: In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are right or wrong. But might there be there any higher-level perceptions that the disputants could agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?

KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normal� science. If mathematics is the language of science, to be scientific a researcher must be able to offer mathematical formulations that are transparent to other scientists and logically sound. By this principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

KM: On the other side of the dispute, Rick has apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the principles of normal science. His repeated response to the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in his position has not been to fix the errors, or even to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his. The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling clearly do not include the normal-science injunction that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free from errors.

RM: I don’t think this is really going up a level. I see the appeal to mathematical arguments as the means used by each side to try to bring the perception of the meaning of the power law – the perception that I see as being in conflict – to the goal state of each party.

RM: I see “going up a level” as either party becoming aware of higher level controlled perceptions, control of which is degraded by failure to get the conflicted perception into it’s goal state.

KM: What then might be the higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own position?

RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in the conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions that are relevant to solving the conflicts are the perceptions each party to the conflict is controlled that requires that they set the goal for the conflicted perception in different goal states. What, for example, am I controlling that requires that I set a goal for showing that the power law is an example of a behavioral illusion?; what is everyone else controlling for that requires that they set a goal for showing that it is not?

KM : I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University library. On that occasion, the message I took home from his presentation was that he was tired of trying to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether anybody else likes it or not.

RM: Yes, that’s close. I wouldn’t say that I no longer have the goal of spreading the word about PCT; but I am trying to concentrate on doing my own brand of PCT research, which, from years of working with Bill, I believe to be the correct brand of PCT. So while I would like others to like my brand of PCT I do have the goal of not letting others dislike of my brand of PCT affect the way I go about my business.

KM: My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one right way to do PCT research, and perpetually embattled against the forces of scientific error besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly confines of CSGnet.

RM: This is a pretty good description of the state of a perception I am controlling for; it’s certainly not the goal state. I would like to be one scientist among many doing “my brand” of PCT and not battling the forces of PCT error besetting me on all sides. This leads me to realize that, as in all interpersonal conflicts (like the one about the power law) there is also an internal conflict. My internal conflict is that I want to do research with colleagues – not as a lone researcher – but I also want to do “my brand” of PCT research (which I do, indeed, think is the right brand). The conflict results from the fact I can’t do both and the power law discussion is a good example. I could do research with colleagues if I could see the power law from the point of view of the power law researchers (and the CSGNet people who see this research as demonstrating something important about movement control; but this would create an error in the system that is controlling for doing “my brand” of PCT, which can’t help seeing the power law as anything other than an example of a behavioral illusion. But when describe research on the power law in a way that achieves my goal of doing “my brand” of PCT I create an error in the system controlling for doing research with colleagues. Right not, the system controlling for doing “my brand” of PCT is controlling with higher gain, so it’s winning the conflict. But in doing so, it’s creating error in the system controlling for “doing research with colleagues”. But apparently that system is controlling with much lower gain. That’s probably what you picked up in my talk at Northwestern; I was really saying that the “my brand of PCT” control system was (and probably will continue) to win the internal conflict with the system controlling for doing research with colleagues.

KM: What are the chances that I am right about this hypothesis?

RM: I think you were very close and your description of your hypothesis has helped my become aware of a conflict within my self – the one I just described above – that I don’t think I was consciously aware of before.

KM: As Rick himself has often told us, the point of psychological research with PCT is to figure out the perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this hypothesized perception (until now, at least)

RM: Actually, you did. Your statement of the hypothesis was a disturbance that actually helped me better articulate (consciously) the two sides of the conflict I’m dealing with.

KM: to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems to me that the power-law threads can be taken together as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception Rick is controlling.

RM: Actually, they can. They certainly show that I am controlling for high gain for “my brand” of PCT. What’s harder to see is that I am also controlling for doing research with colleagues. You could see that I am controlling for doing research with colleagues if the people opposing me were asked to just go along with my ideas (as a test; they don’t have to really believe it). If they did, you would see me enthusiastically join in the research collaborative.

KM: Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one true scientist involved in the dispute.

RM: I suppose you could describe it that way, yes. That reveals the fact that I am controlling for “my brand” of PCT.

KM: If I am right in my hypothesis about the perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal

RM: That would be true only if I didn’t want you to discover the perception(s) I am controlling, But I’m not ashamed of controlling for “my brand” of PCT; nor am I ashamed of controlling for wanting to do research with colleagues. I just wish these two goals were not in conflict.

KM: If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I’m wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the perception he’s controlling.

RM: It turns out that I didn’t come back with a strong rebuttal and you don’t have to admit that yo’re wrong; you were right!

KM: As to the scientific credentials of the various disputants,

RM: I’m well aware of the fact that all the people involved in this discussion are very smart and well credentialed. But thanks for documenting it for us.

Best regards

Rick

CSGnet regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s scientific work to take a look at these two websites:

https://agomezmarin.com/

https://behavior-of-organisms.org/

In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has already amassed an amazing publication record in several related scientific fields. He seems like exactly the kind of person who might be capable of carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his research.

My best to all,

Kent


Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

If any one is interested, I probably have the same conflict as Rick, maybe we all do to some degree depending on where we perceived the boundaries of ‘normal science’ to sit and the worth we assign to various parts of it. We still all agree in the empirical method for example - that theory requires evidence to support it.

The way I try to resolve the internal conflict is to believe that probably most aspects of ‘normal science’ have their place, but that ‘place’ is nearly always, in my experience, best defined by PCT itself rather than by the proponents of examples of ‘normal science’ and their theories.

It’s the British (or Canadian) rather than the French (or American?) way of having a revolution. You keep the befuddled, arrogant monarchy, respect they are part of your country, certainly don’t chop their heads off or exile them, and by the 21st century they are working with the democracy rather than against it, and they become a valued part of the country, albeit with some quirks and excessive expenses that need to be taken care of and monitored. That’s how I see how the APA and APS top dogs will be seen in a century… With a little work from us all!

That could be a bad analogy, not sure…

Warren

···

Kent McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)

KM: Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months have seen several threads emerge relating to the power law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing curved paths have been found to follow the power law, which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a new kind of behavioral illusion.

RM: Yes, exactly.

KM: From my perspective as someone who has sought to apply PCT to understanding social conflicts, this online dispute seems to be an excellent example of what in international relations is called an “intractable� conflict.

RM: Yes, all real conflicts are intractable in the sense that there is no solution at the level of the conflict will allow all parties to the conflict to achieve the goals that are are in conflict.

KM: Many ethnic and religious conflicts, for example, are so entrenched, over so many generations, that there seems to be no possibility that they will ever be resolved. While I hope the power law controversy is not going to last for generations, at the moment it seems firmly entrenched and shows no sign of abating.

RM: Scientific conflicts are the same. It should be possible to resolve them by empirical test, where the results of the test show which party to the conflict is right and which is wrong. But it’s rarely that simple. This is why scientific conflicts can go on for quite a long time.

KM: according to Method-of-Levels therapists like Tim Carey and Warren Mansell, intrapersonal conflicts can be resolved: by “going up a level.�

RM: Yes.

KM: In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are right or wrong. But might there be there any higher-level perceptions that the disputants could agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?

KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normal� science. If mathematics is the language of science, to be scientific a researcher must be able to offer mathematical formulations that are transparent to other scientists and logically sound. By this principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

KM: On the other side of the dispute, Rick has apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the principles of normal science. His repeated response to the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in his position has not been to fix the errors, or even to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his. The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling clearly do not include the normal-science injunction that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free from errors.

RM: I don’t think this is really going up a level. I see the appeal to mathematical arguments as the means used by each side to try to bring the perception of the meaning of the power law – the perception that I see as being in conflict – to the goal state of each party.

RM: I see “going up a level” as either party becoming aware of higher level controlled perceptions, control of which is degraded by failure to get the conflicted perception into it’s goal state.

KM: What then might be the higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own position?

RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in the conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions that are relevant to solving the conflicts are the perceptions each party to the conflict is controlled that requires that they set the goal for the conflicted perception in different goal states. What, for example, am I controlling that requires that I set a goal for showing that the power law is an example of a behavioral illusion?; what is everyone else controlling for that requires that they set a goal for showing that it is not?

KM : I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University library. On that occasion, the message I took home from his presentation was that he was tired of trying to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether anybody else likes it or not.

RM: Yes, that’s close. I wouldn’t say that I no longer have the goal of spreading the word about PCT; but I am trying to concentrate on doing my own brand of PCT research, which, from years of working with Bill, I believe to be the correct brand of PCT. So while I would like others to like my brand of PCT I do have the goal of not letting others dislike of my brand of PCT affect the way I go about my business.

KM: My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one right way to do PCT research, and perpetually embattled against the forces of scientific error besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly confines of CSGnet.

RM: This is a pretty good description of the state of a perception I am controlling for; it’s certainly not the goal state. I would like to be one scientist among many doing “my brand” of PCT and not battling the forces of PCT error besetting me on all sides. This leads me to realize that, as in all interpersonal conflicts (like the one about the power law) there is also an internal conflict. My internal conflict is that I want to do research with colleagues – not as a lone researcher – but I also want to do “my brand” of PCT research (which I do, indeed, think is the right brand). The conflict results from the fact I can’t do both and the power law discussion is a good example. I could do research with colleagues if I could see the power law from the point of view of the power law researchers (and the CSGNet people who see this research as demonstrating something important about movement control; but this would create an error in the system that is controlling for doing “my brand” of PCT, which can’t help seeing the power law as anything other than an example of a behavioral illusion. But when describe research on the power law in a way that achieves my goal of doing “my brand” of PCT I create an error in the system controlling for doing research with colleagues. Right not, the system controlling for doing “my brand” of PCT is controlling with higher gain, so it’s winning the conflict. But in doing so, it’s creating error in the system controlling for “doing research with colleagues”. But apparently that system is controlling with much lower gain. That’s probably what you picked up in my talk at Northwestern; I was really saying that the “my brand of PCT” control system was (and probably will continue) to win the internal conflict with the system controlling for doing research with colleagues.

KM: What are the chances that I am right about this hypothesis?

RM: I think you were very close and your description of your hypothesis has helped my become aware of a conflict within my self – the one I just described above – that I don’t think I was consciously aware of before.

KM: As Rick himself has often told us, the point of psychological research with PCT is to figure out the perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this hypothesized perception (until now, at least)

RM: Actually, you did. Your statement of the hypothesis was a disturbance that actually helped me better articulate (consciously) the two sides of the conflict I’m dealing with.

KM: to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems to me that the power-law threads can be taken together as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception Rick is controlling.

RM: Actually, they can. They certainly show that I am controlling for high gain for “my brand” of PCT. What’s harder to see is that I am also controlling for doing research with colleagues. You could see that I am controlling for doing research with colleagues if the people opposing me were asked to just go along with my ideas (as a test; they don’t have to really believe it). If they did, you would see me enthusiastically join in the research collaborative.

KM: Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one true scientist involved in the dispute.

RM: I suppose you could describe it that way, yes. That reveals the fact that I am controlling for “my brand” of PCT.

KM: If I am right in my hypothesis about the perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal

RM: That would be true only if I didn’t want you to discover the perception(s) I am controlling, But I’m not ashamed of controlling for “my brand” of PCT; nor am I ashamed of controlling for wanting to do research with colleagues. I just wish these two goals were not in conflict.

KM: If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I’m wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the perception he’s controlling.

RM: It turns out that I didn’t come back with a strong rebuttal and you don’t have to admit that yo’re wrong; you were right!

KM: As to the scientific credentials of the various disputants,

RM: I’m well aware of the fact that all the people involved in this discussion are very smart and well credentialed. But thanks for documenting it for us.

Best regards

Rick

CSGnet regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s scientific work to take a look at these two websites:

https://agomezmarin.com/

https://behavior-of-organisms.org/

In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has already amassed an amazing publication record in several related scientific fields. He seems like exactly the kind of person who might be capable of carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his research.

My best to all,

Kent


Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

[Martin Taylor 2016.08.22.10.57]

I have a feeling that you are taking "normal science" to imply

“science as understood by most scientists”, which isn’t quite what I
had in mind. No science is immutable, but there are certain
foundations that would change a huge range of less fundamental
sciences if they were found to be wrong. For example, in geometry,
the Pythagorean theorem was thought to be a universal truth for at
least a couple of thousand years (the Babylonians knew about it half
a millenium or more before Pythagoras), but along came Riemann and
Lobachevsky and showed that it is true only in a flat space that we
now call “Euclidean”. When we use the Pythagorean theorem, we have
to have in mind that the space has to be flat. That’s “normal
science” to me. Riemann and Lobachevsky enhanced our understanding
of geometry, and changed the world, because without it we wouldn’t
have had relativity theory, GPS systems, and so much more.
You CAN challenge any science, and PCT challenges “normal
psychology”. Yes, it’s revolutionary, but only in that domain. It is
outside the possibilities of PCT to challenge the foundations of
mathematics, or, for that matter, of physics (thermodynamics, for
example), or of chemistry (although I would not fight the claim that
relativity theory depends on the same foundation as PCT – the
viewpoint of the perceiver/controller). PCT has to work within the
limits of Newtonian mechanics, since it deals neither with the very
fast, the very big, or the very small. It is within the domain of
PCT to challenge sciences that depend on psychology. Indeed, it is
essential that it do so I think of economics, sociology, political
science (if there actually is such a thing), and the like. It is not
within the domain of PCT to challenge sciences that don’t depend on
the control of perception. If they are applicable, then PCT must go
along. That’s why
V = DR
can be challenged as a tautology. Even if it’s called PCT, the
“normal science” behind the challenge is the kind of simple
mathematics that underpins just about everything we understand in
any detail. Simply put, if you have an equation X = Y/Z, you are
quite at liberty to define a new variable D to be X
Z, but you are
not at liberty to claim that X = D/Z tells you anything about the
relation between X and Z. To do so is to go outside the bounds of
“normal science”.
Yes, for sciences that do or even might be changed by accepting that
the control of perception affects interpretations of their
observations. No, for sciences that do not, and on which the
interpretation of data in PCT depends.
I think it is (a bad analogy). And Is suspect I’m at one with Rick
on this, at least. There’s a distinction between science and
politics. In science, it is often possible to distinguish which of
two theories is closer to describing the “real world”. It’s called a
crucial experiment. It’s what Bruce and I keep asking Rick to do
with his “behavioural illusion”.
----aside----
(By the way, I don’t take and never have taken a stand on whether
the power law is indeed a behavioural illusion. Maybe it is and
maybe it isn’t. My position is that Rick’s approach to it says
nothing, because it is based at its heart on two errors, one being
the tautology above, the other being that the V in the tautological
equation has some relation to the observed speed with which a moving
object takes curves of different radii – Rick claims that they are
not just related, but are the same thing).
----end aside----
Think about the hierarchy of perception. The inputs to perceptual
functions at any level are lower-level perceptions. Changes in any
of them will probably alter the output of that perceptual function.
Changes in perceptions at this level will probably alter perceptions
at higher levels, but the reverse is not true unless the
higher-level control actions alter the inputs from lower levels. The
same with “normal science”. How people do politics doesn’t
immediately influence PCT, but an understanding of PCT might
influence how people do politics, and the result might much later
change something about the ideas that constitute PCT.
Â
Does this clarify my quarter-century problem with Rick’s conflation
of “PCT is revolutionary” with “no normal science need apply”, and
why our conflicts almost always hinge on my efforts to apply “normal
science” to a PCT question?
Martin

···

On 2016/08/22 5:18 AM, Warren Mansell
wrote:

    If any one is interested, I probably have the same conflict

as Rick, maybe we all do to some degree depending on where we
perceived the boundaries of ‘normal science’ to sit and the
worth we assign to various parts of it. We still all agree in
the empirical method for example - that theory requires evidence
to support it.

1/31/3

    The way I try to resolve the internal conflict is to believe

that probably most aspects of ‘normal science’ have their place,
but that ‘place’ is nearly always, in my experience, best
defined by PCT itself rather than by the proponents of examples
of ‘normal science’ and their theories.

    It's the British (or Canadian) rather than the French (or

American?) way of having a revolution. You keep the befuddled,
arrogant monarchy, respect they are part of your country,
certainly don’t chop their heads off or exile them, and by the
21st century they are working with the democracy rather than
against it, and they become a valued part of the country, albeit
with some quirks and excessive expenses that need to be taken
care of and monitored. That’s how I see how the APA and APS top
dogs will be seen in a century… With a little work from us
all!

That could be a bad analogy, not sure…

Warren

    On 22 Aug 2016, at 07:00, Richard Marken <rsmarken@gmail.com        >

wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.21.2300)]

              Â Kent

McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)

              KM: Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months

have seen several threads emerge relating to the power
law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results
that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing
curved paths have been found to follow the power law,
which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a
new kind of behavioral illusion.

RM: Yes, exactly.

Â

              KM:

From my perspective as someone who has sought to apply
PCT to understanding social conflicts, this online
dispute seems to be an excellent example of what in
international relations is called an “intractable�
conflict.

              RM: Yes, all real conflicts are intractable in the

sense that there is no solution at the level of the
conflict will allow all parties to the conflict to
achieve the goals that are are in conflict.Â

Â

              KM:

Many ethnic and religious conflicts, for example, are
so entrenched, over so many generations, that there
seems to be no possibility that they will ever be
resolved. While I hope the power law controversy is
not going to last for generations, at the moment it
seems firmly entrenched and shows no sign of abating.

              RM: Scientific conflicts are the same. It should be

possible to resolve them by empirical test, where the
results of the test show which party to the conflict
is right and which is wrong. But it’s rarely that
simple. This is why scientific conflicts can go on for
quite a long time.Â

Â

              KM:

 according to Method-of-Levels therapists like Tim
Carey and Warren Mansell, intrapersonal conflicts can
be resolved: by “going up a level.â€?Â

RM: Yes. Â

Â

              KM:

In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy
has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are
right or wrong. But might there be there any
higher-level perceptions that the disputants could
agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?

              KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone

up a level by appealing to a set of principles that
belong to the system concept of “normal� science. If
mathematics is the language of science, to be
scientific a researcher must be able to offer
mathematical formulations that are transparent to
other scientists and logically sound. By this
principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when
pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

              KM: On the other side of the dispute, Rick has

apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the
principles of normal science. His repeated response to
the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in
his position has not been to fix the errors, or even
to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but
to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his
opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his.
The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling
clearly do not include the normal-science injunction
that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free
from errors.

              RM: I don't think this is really going up a level.

I see the appeal to mathematical arguments as the
means used by each side to try to bring the perception
of the meaning of the power law – the perception that
I see as being in conflict – to the goal state of
each party.Â

              RM: I see "going up a level" as either party

becoming aware of higher level controlled perceptions,
control of which is degraded by failure to get the
conflicted perception into it’s goal state.Â

              KM: What then might be the higher-level perceptions

that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make
it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own
position?

              RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in

the conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions
that are relevant to solving the conflicts are the
perceptions each party to the conflict is controlled
that requires that they set the goal for the
conflicted perception in different goal states. What,
for example, am I controlling that requires that I set
a goal for showing that the power law is an example of
a behavioral illusion?; what is everyone else
controlling for that requires that they set a goal for
showing that it is not?

Â

              KM :

I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got
a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in
Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the
Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University
library. On that occasion, the message I took home
from his presentation was that he was tired of trying
to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and
that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead
intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own
brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether
anybody else likes it or not.

              RM: Yes, that's close. I wouldn't say that I no

longer have the goal of spreading the word about PCT;
but I am trying to concentrate on doing my own brand
of PCT research, which, from years of working with
Bill, I believe to be the correct brand of PCT. So
while I would like others to like my brand of PCT I do
have the goal of not letting others dislike of my
brand of PCT affect the way I go about my business.Â

Â

              KM:

My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a
high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself
as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the
truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one
right way to do PCT research, and perpetually
embattled against the forces of scientific error
besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly
confines of CSGnet.

              RM: This is a pretty good description of the state

of a perception I am controlling for; it’s certainly
not the goal state. I would like to be one scientist
among many doing “my brand” of PCT and not battling
the forces of PCT error besetting me on all sides.
This leads me to realize that, as in all interpersonal
conflicts (like the one about the power law) there is
also an internal conflict. My internal conflict is
that I want to do research with colleagues – not as a
lone researcher – but I also want to do “my brand” of
PCT research (which I do, indeed, think is the right
brand). The conflict results from the fact I can’t do
both and the power law discussion is a good example. I
could do research with colleagues if I could see the
power law from the point of view of the power law
researchers (and the CSGNet people who see this
research as demonstrating something important about
movement control; but this would create an error in
the system that is controlling for doing “my brand” of
PCT, which can’t help seeing the power law as anything
other than an example of a behavioral illusion. But
when describe research on the power law in a way that
achieves my goal of doing “my brand” of PCT I create
an error in the system controlling for doing research
with colleagues. Right not, the system controlling for
doing “my brand” of PCT is controlling with higher
gain, so it’s winning the conflict. But in doing so,
it’s creating error in the system controlling for
“doing research with colleagues”. But apparently that
system is controlling with much lower gain. That’s
probably what you picked up in my talk at
Northwestern; I was really saying that the “my brand
of PCT” control system was (and probably will
continue) to win the internal conflict with the system
controlling for doing research with colleagues.Â

Â

              KM:

What are the chances that I am right about this
hypothesis?

              RM: I think you were very close and your

description of your hypothesis has helped my become
aware of a conflict within my self – the one I just
described above – that I don’t think I was
consciously aware of before.Â

Â

              KM:

As Rick himself has often told us, the point of
psychological research with PCT is to figure out the
perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t
actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to
determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I
myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this
hypothesized perception (until now, at least)

              RM: Actually, you did. Your statement of the

hypothesis was a disturbance that actually helped me
better articulate (consciously) the two sides of the
conflict I’m dealing with.Â

Â

              KM:

to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems
to me that the power-law threads can be taken together
as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception
Rick is controlling.

              RM: Actually, they can. They certainly show that I

am controlling for high gain for “my brand” of PCT.
What’s harder to see is that I am also controlling for
doing research with colleagues. You could see that I
am controlling for doing research with colleagues if
the people opposing me were asked to just go along
with my ideas (as a test; they don’t have to really
believe it). If they did, you would see me
enthusiastically join in the research collaborative.

Â

              KM:

Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an
opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to
the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one
true scientist involved in the dispute.

              Â RM: I suppose you could describe it that way, yes.

That reveals the fact that I am controlling for “my
brand” of PCT.

              KM: If I am right in my hypothesis about the

perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own
post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal

              RM: That would be true only if I didn't want you to

discover the perception(s) I am controlling, But I’m
not ashamed of controlling for “my brand” of PCT; nor
am I ashamed of controlling for wanting to do research
with colleagues. I just wish these two goals were not
in conflict.Â

              KM:

If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong
rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I’m
wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the
perception he’s controlling.

              RM: It turns out that I didn't come back with a

strong rebuttal and you don’t have to admit that yo’re
wrong; you were right!

Â

              KM:

As to the scientific credentials of the various
disputants,

              RM: I'm well aware of the fact that all the people

involved in this discussion are very smart and well
credentialed. But thanks for documenting it for us.Â

Best regards

Rick

Â

              CSGnet

regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding
contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT
through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce
and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I
would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s
scientific work to take a look at these two websites:

              [https://agomezmarin.com/](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__agomezmarin.com_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=DImpOjfmazJxFFSgSIfyJitsDYFSkDQS3S9J8pddTao&s=ZrxJ7v2b74cwWejafW8WuPBGU4wldlnt8LcKID6YtmQ&e=)

              [https://behavior-of-organisms.org/](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__behavior-2Dof-2Dorganisms.org_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=DImpOjfmazJxFFSgSIfyJitsDYFSkDQS3S9J8pddTao&s=wmVDBM0OH9MLNQC_y5til1lA2TBAgqT_USIm4CJLZ-s&e=)



              In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has

already amassed an amazing publication record in
several related scientific fields. He seems like
exactly the kind of person who might be capable of
carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next
generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet
are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the
appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist
like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the
power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his
research.

              My best to all,



              Kent


Richard S. MarkenÂ

                                        "The childhood of the human

race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before
most people will understand
that what they do for
others is just as important
to their well-being as what
they do for
themselves." – William T.
Powers

[From Kent McClelland (2016.22.1145)]

Rick Marken (2016.08.21.2300)

Hi Rick,

KM: I appreciate the conciliatory tone of your post, Rick, and I do admit that part of my intention in sending my post was to disturb you a bit, since I was irritated by the way the dispute seemed to
be dragging on without going anywhere.

KM: I also agree strongly with your insight that interpersonal conflicts and internal conflicts are often tightly linked, and I’m glad that my hypothesis about the variables you were controlling has
helped you to pinpoint an internal conflict between working collaboratively with other researchers while also doing your own brand of PCT science. From what you’ve said in your other posts in this controversy, your assessment of your own internal conflict
makes a lot of sense.

KM: I do, however, disagree with one part of your response to my post:

KM: Perhaps Martin and Bruce’s appeal of the principles of normal science doesn’t quite fit the MoL definition of “going up a levelâ€?, but I believe that it was exactly the higher-level perception that they were controlling when they plunged into the dispute
with you. It wasn’t just some debating tactic on their part. The errors they have perceived in your mathematical presentation of your model must be a strong disturbance to their high-level control of what science is all about. Otherwise they wouldn’t still
be banging on you over and over to fix your math. And I also believe that if you had taken their criticisms seriously rather than seeming to dismiss them as irrelevant, it would have meant that you yourself had gone up a level to a place where you could begin
to view your own debating position from a different perspective.

KM: And yes, I guess I’m taking sides in the conflict here. from my perspective, a “revolutionary" PCT science, as Martin describes it (Martin Taylor 2016.08.21.17.20), may indeed require major readjustments
in the methods scientists use, but it cannot mean jettisoning the principle that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably correct to the satisfaction of other scientists, whether or not they accept PCT. Any science that discarded the long-accepted norms of
mathematical and logical correctness would not be worthy of the name, in my view.

KM: And I’m probably out of line here to be giving you unsolicited advice, but in my view all of this has relevance to your internal conflict about doing your own brand of science but also working with others. If you really want to collaborate with other
researchers, you have to be willing to take their criticisms seriously and engage with them either to fix errors in math and logic or convince them that these are not in fact errors. (I’m remaining agnostic here on whether they are right about the alleged
errors in your presentation, since I haven’t taken the trouble to go through all the math myself. The problem, as I see it, is the question of your apparent lack of serious engagement with your possible collaborators’ objections.)

KM: I now see that Martin Taylor has just posted another message ( 2016.08.22.10.57), and he has probably explained his own position far better than I can. So
I’ll sign off here, and apologize in advance, Rick, for my unsolicited advice.

Best,

Kent

···

KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normal� science. If mathematics is the language of science, to be scientific a researcher must be able to offer mathematical
formulations that are transparent to other scientists and logically sound. By this principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

KM: On the other side of the dispute, Rick has apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the principles of normal science. His repeated response to the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in his position has not been to fix the errors, or even to
try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his. The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling clearly do not include the normal-science injunction
that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free from errors.

RM: I don’t think this is really going up a level. I see the appeal to mathematical arguments as the means used by each side to try to bring the perception of the meaning of the power law – the perception that I see as being in conflict – to
the goal state of each party.

RM: I see “going up a level” as either party becoming aware of higher level controlled perceptions, control of which is degraded by failure to get the conflicted perception into it’s goal state.

KM: What then might be the higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own position?

RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in the conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions that are relevant to solving the conflicts are the perceptions each party to the conflict is controlled that requires that they set the goal
for the conflicted perception in different goal states. What, for example, am I controlling that requires that I set a goal for showing that the power law is an example of a behavioral illusion?; what is everyone else controlling for that requires that they
set a goal for showing that it is not?

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.22.1130)]

···

Kent McClelland (2016.22.1145)

KM: I do, however, disagree with one part of your response to my post:Â

KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone up a level by appealing to a set of principles that belong to the system concept of “normalâ€? science…

RM: I don’t think this is really going up a level…Â

KM: Perhaps Martin and Bruce’s appeal of the principles of normal science doesn’t quite fit the MoL definition of “going up a levelâ€?, but I believe that it was exactly the higher-level perception that they were controlling when they plunged into the dispute
with you. It wasn’t just some debating tactic on their part. The errors they have perceived in your mathematical presentation of your model must be a strong disturbance to their high-level control of what science is all about.Â

RM: I’m sure they are. But my perception of the correctness of the PCT analysis is just as disturbed by the errors and misconceptions I see in their math and logic.Â

KM: And I also believe that if you had taken their criticisms seriously rather than seeming to dismiss them as irrelevant, it would have meant that you yourself had gone up a level to a place where you could begin
to view your own debating position from a different perspective.Â

RM: You believe this because you agree with Bruce and Martin. You’re just pushing harder against my point of view from their side of the conflict.Â

KM: And yes, I guess I’m taking sides in the conflict here.

RM: Good. I’m glad you know it.Â

Â

KM: From my perspective, a “revolutionary" PCT science, as Martin describes it (Martin Taylor 2016.08.21.17.20), may indeed require major readjustments
in the methods scientists use, but it cannot mean jettisoning the principle that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably correct to the satisfaction of other scientists, whether or not they accept PCT. Any science that discarded the long-accepted norms of
mathematical and logical correctness would not be worthy of the name, in my view.

RM: It would help if you could point out which principles of math and logic I’ve jettisoned.Â

KM: And I’m probably out of line here to be giving you unsolicited advice, but in my view all of this has relevance to your internal conflict about doing your own brand of science but also working with others. If you really want to collaborate with other
researchers, you have to be willing to take their criticisms seriously and engage with them either to fix errors in math and logic or convince them that these are not in fact errors.Â

RM: How have I not been taking criticisms seriously? What errors in math and logic have I not fixed? I agree that I have not convinced anyone that there are no errors in my math or logic. It might be nice if you told the people I’m trying to convince to take my criticisms seriously.

(I’m remaining agnostic here on whether they are right about the alleged
errors in your presentation, since I haven’t taken the trouble to go through all the math myself. The problem, as I see it, is the question of your apparent lack of serious engagement with your possible collaborators’ objections.)Â

RM: I don’t know how to be more serious. Perhaps you could tell me how?

KM: I now see that Martin Taylor has just posted another message ( 2016.08.22.10.57), and he has probably explained his own position far better than I can. So
I’ll sign off here, and apologize in advance, Rick, for my unsolicited advice.
RM: I do appreciate the advice, I just wish it were more specific. How about telling me exactly which math and logic errors I’ve made and I’ll try to explain why they are not errors or admit that this has all been a terrible mistake and the power law is not an example of a behavioral illusion.Â

Best

Rick


Richard S. MarkenÂ

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

Sorry yes Martin, I did mean ‘the normal science of living things’ rather than physics, chemistry, etc which I wouldn’t say are understood better through PCT…

···

On 2016/08/22 5:18 AM, Warren Mansell
wrote:

    If any one is interested, I probably have the same conflict

as Rick, maybe we all do to some degree depending on where we
perceived the boundaries of ‘normal science’ to sit and the
worth we assign to various parts of it. We still all agree in
the empirical method for example - that theory requires evidence
to support it.

1/31/3

    The way I try to resolve the internal conflict is to believe

that probably most aspects of ‘normal science’ have their place,
but that ‘place’ is nearly always, in my experience, best
defined by PCT itself rather than by the proponents of examples
of ‘normal science’ and their theories.

    It's the British (or Canadian) rather than the French (or

American?) way of having a revolution. You keep the befuddled,
arrogant monarchy, respect they are part of your country,
certainly don’t chop their heads off or exile them, and by the
21st century they are working with the democracy rather than
against it, and they become a valued part of the country, albeit
with some quirks and excessive expenses that need to be taken
care of and monitored. That’s how I see how the APA and APS top
dogs will be seen in a century… With a little work from us
all!

That could be a bad analogy, not sure…

Warren

    On 22 Aug 2016, at 07:00, Richard Marken <rsmarken@gmail.com        >

wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.21.2300)]

              Kent

McClelland (2016.08.21.1700)

              KM: Followers of CSGnet over the last couple of months

have seen several threads emerge relating to the power
law and Rick Marken’s analysis of empirical results
that the velocities of a variety of organisms tracing
curved paths have been found to follow the power law,
which, if I understand what he is saying, he sees as a
new kind of behavioral illusion.

RM: Yes, exactly.

              KM:

From my perspective as someone who has sought to apply
PCT to understanding social conflicts, this online
dispute seems to be an excellent example of what in
international relations is called an “intractable�
conflict.

              RM: Yes, all real conflicts are intractable in the

sense that there is no solution at the level of the
conflict will allow all parties to the conflict to
achieve the goals that are are in conflict.

              KM:

Many ethnic and religious conflicts, for example, are
so entrenched, over so many generations, that there
seems to be no possibility that they will ever be
resolved. While I hope the power law controversy is
not going to last for generations, at the moment it
seems firmly entrenched and shows no sign of abating.

              RM: Scientific conflicts are the same. It should be

possible to resolve them by empirical test, where the
results of the test show which party to the conflict
is right and which is wrong. But it’s rarely that
simple. This is why scientific conflicts can go on for
quite a long time.

              KM:

according to Method-of-Levels therapists like Tim
Carey and Warren Mansell, intrapersonal conflicts can
be resolved: by “going up a level.�

RM: Yes.

              KM:

In the power-law dispute, the nub of the controversy
has been the perception of whether Rick’s claims are
right or wrong. But might there be there any
higher-level perceptions that the disputants could
agree upon, which would then resolve the issue?

              KM: On the one side, Alex, Bruce, and Martin have gone

up a level by appealing to a set of principles that
belong to the system concept of “normal� science. If
mathematics is the language of science, to be
scientific a researcher must be able to offer
mathematical formulations that are transparent to
other scientists and logically sound. By this
principle, flaws in mathematical reasoning, when
pointed out, must be immediately fixed.

              KM: On the other side of the dispute, Rick has

apparently been unmoved by this appeal to the
principles of normal science. His repeated response to
the allegations of mathematical and logical flaws in
his position has not been to fix the errors, or even
to try to explain why they are not in fact errors, but
to sidestep these questions entirely and call on his
opponents to come up with PCT model in answer to his.
The higher-level perceptions that Rick is controlling
clearly do not include the normal-science injunction
that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably free
from errors.

              RM: I don't think this is really going up a level.

I see the appeal to mathematical arguments as the
means used by each side to try to bring the perception
of the meaning of the power law – the perception that
I see as being in conflict – to the goal state of
each party.

              RM: I see "going up a level" as either party

becoming aware of higher level controlled perceptions,
control of which is degraded by failure to get the
conflicted perception into it’s goal state.

              KM: What then might be the higher-level perceptions

that Rick is controlling, perceptions that would make
it impossible for him to admit any errors in his own
position?

              RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in

the conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions
that are relevant to solving the conflicts are the
perceptions each party to the conflict is controlled
that requires that they set the goal for the
conflicted perception in different goal states. What,
for example, am I controlling that requires that I set
a goal for showing that the power law is an example of
a behavioral illusion?; what is everyone else
controlling for that requires that they set a goal for
showing that it is not?

              KM :

I cannot say for certain, of course, but I think I got
a clue from his presentation at 2014 CSG meeting in
Evanston, Illinois, in honor of the creation of the
Bill Powers archive at the Northwestern University
library. On that occasion, the message I took home
from his presentation was that he was tired of trying
to spread the word about PCT to other scientists, and
that he was giving it up as a bad deal and instead
intended to concentrate henceforth on doing his own
brand of PCT-informed scientific research, whether
anybody else likes it or not.

              RM: Yes, that's close. I wouldn't say that I no

longer have the goal of spreading the word about PCT;
but I am trying to concentrate on doing my own brand
of PCT research, which, from years of working with
Bill, I believe to be the correct brand of PCT. So
while I would like others to like my brand of PCT I do
have the goal of not letting others dislike of my
brand of PCT affect the way I go about my business.

              KM:

My hypothesis, then, is that Rick’s self image (a
high-level perception indeed!) is that he sees himself
as a lone scientist, uniquely in possession of the
truth of PCT, as well as of the knowledge of the one
right way to do PCT research, and perpetually
embattled against the forces of scientific error
besetting him on all sides, even within the friendly
confines of CSGnet.

              RM: This is a pretty good description of the state

of a perception I am controlling for; it’s certainly
not the goal state. I would like to be one scientist
among many doing “my brand” of PCT and not battling
the forces of PCT error besetting me on all sides.
This leads me to realize that, as in all interpersonal
conflicts (like the one about the power law) there is
also an internal conflict. My internal conflict is
that I want to do research with colleagues – not as a
lone researcher – but I also want to do “my brand” of
PCT research (which I do, indeed, think is the right
brand). The conflict results from the fact I can’t do
both and the power law discussion is a good example. I
could do research with colleagues if I could see the
power law from the point of view of the power law
researchers (and the CSGNet people who see this
research as demonstrating something important about
movement control; but this would create an error in
the system that is controlling for doing “my brand” of
PCT, which can’t help seeing the power law as anything
other than an example of a behavioral illusion. But
when describe research on the power law in a way that
achieves my goal of doing “my brand” of PCT I create
an error in the system controlling for doing research
with colleagues. Right not, the system controlling for
doing “my brand” of PCT is controlling with higher
gain, so it’s winning the conflict. But in doing so,
it’s creating error in the system controlling for
“doing research with colleagues”. But apparently that
system is controlling with much lower gain. That’s
probably what you picked up in my talk at
Northwestern; I was really saying that the “my brand
of PCT” control system was (and probably will
continue) to win the internal conflict with the system
controlling for doing research with colleagues.

              KM:

What are the chances that I am right about this
hypothesis?

              RM: I think you were very close and your

description of your hypothesis has helped my become
aware of a conflict within my self – the one I just
described above – that I don’t think I was
consciously aware of before.

              KM:

As Rick himself has often told us, the point of
psychological research with PCT is to figure out the
perceptions that the subject is controlling. I haven’t
actually done the Test of the Controlled Variable to
determine what perception Rick is controlling, since I
myself haven’t introduced any disturbances to this
hypothesized perception (until now, at least)

              RM: Actually, you did. Your statement of the

hypothesis was a disturbance that actually helped me
better articulate (consciously) the two sides of the
conflict I’m dealing with.

              KM:

to see whether he counters them or not, but it seems
to me that the power-law threads can be taken together
as a very thorough TCV for the high-level perception
Rick is controlling.

              RM: Actually, they can. They certainly show that I

am controlling for high gain for “my brand” of PCT.
What’s harder to see is that I am also controlling for
doing research with colleagues. You could see that I
am controlling for doing research with colleagues if
the people opposing me were asked to just go along
with my ideas (as a test; they don’t have to really
believe it). If they did, you would see me
enthusiastically join in the research collaborative.

              KM:

Rick has vigorously rejected every post from an
opponent that might be construed as a disturbance to
the hypothesized perception that he alone is the one
true scientist involved in the dispute.

              RM: I suppose you could describe it that way, yes.

That reveals the fact that I am controlling for “my
brand” of PCT.

              KM: If I am right in my hypothesis about the

perception Rick is controlling, I expect that my own
post will be immediately met by a vigorous rebuttal

              RM: That would be true only if I didn't want you to

discover the perception(s) I am controlling, But I’m
not ashamed of controlling for “my brand” of PCT; nor
am I ashamed of controlling for wanting to do research
with colleagues. I just wish these two goals were not
in conflict.

              KM:

If, however, he doesn’t come back with a strong
rebuttal, I may have to admit the possibility that I’m
wrong and reconsider my hypothesis about the
perception he’s controlling.

              RM: It turns out that I didn't come back with a

strong rebuttal and you don’t have to admit that yo’re
wrong; you were right!

              KM:

As to the scientific credentials of the various
disputants,

              RM: I'm well aware of the fact that all the people

involved in this discussion are very smart and well
credentialed. But thanks for documenting it for us.

Best regards

Rick

              CSGnet

regulars must already be aware of the many outstanding
contributions Rick has made to the science of PCT
through the years, and the solid reputations of Bruce
and Martin are also well known on CSGnet. However, I
would invite anyone less familiar with Alex’s
scientific work to take a look at these two websites:

              [https://agomezmarin.com/](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__agomezmarin.com_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=DImpOjfmazJxFFSgSIfyJitsDYFSkDQS3S9J8pddTao&s=ZrxJ7v2b74cwWejafW8WuPBGU4wldlnt8LcKID6YtmQ&e=)

              [https://behavior-of-organisms.org/](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__behavior-2Dof-2Dorganisms.org_&d=CwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=DImpOjfmazJxFFSgSIfyJitsDYFSkDQS3S9J8pddTao&s=wmVDBM0OH9MLNQC_y5til1lA2TBAgqT_USIm4CJLZ-s&e=)



              In my estimation, this young Portuguese scientist has

already amassed an amazing publication record in
several related scientific fields. He seems like
exactly the kind of person who might be capable of
carrying serious research in PCT forward for the next
generation. Most of the current contributors to CSGnet
are getting up in years, and I personally welcome the
appearance on the scene of a promising young scientist
like Alex. I would be sorry if the debacle of the
power-law dispute had soured him on using PCT in his
research.

              My best to all,



              Kent


Richard S. Marken

                                        "The childhood of the human

race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before
most people will understand
that what they do for
others is just as important
to their well-being as what
they do for
themselves." – William T.
Powers

[Martin Taylor 2016.08.22.14.01]

I have gone back and re-read all my postings as well as Bruce's on

any topic since you first proclaimed that the power law was a
behavioural illusion. I can find not one sentence in either suite
that could reasonably be construed as having a goal to show that the
power law is not a behavioural illusion. Not one. The idea that
either of us is controlling for the law not to be a behavioural
illusion is derived entirely from your imagination, not from the
texts of our messages. I would be just as happy if the answer to
Alex’s question turns out to be that it is a behavioural illusion as
it would be if a different PCT explanation were to be found.
But we both have said, and I will continue to say, that you have presented has any bearing on the question, which is the one
Alex asked at the beginning, namely whether PCT provides a reason
why people and other living organisms often choose to slow down at
sharp curves by an amount that is often one power law function of
the curvature, sometimes a different power law function, and
sometimes no power-law function at all. The question you seem always
to be answering is not that question. Perhaps there’s a clue in
this:
No it isn’t, and never was, but that is what your model produces,
that and nothing more.

···
    Rick Marken (2016.08.21.2300) to Kent

McClelland

  RM: This analysis is really just taking sides in the

conflict. The higher level controlled perceptions that are
relevant to solving the conflicts are the perceptions each party
to the conflict is controlled that requires that they set the goal
for the conflicted perception in different goal states. What, for
example, am I controlling that requires that I set a goal for
showing that the power law is an example of a behavioral
illusion?; what is everyone else controlling for that requires
that they set a goal for showing that it is not?

nothing

[From Rick Marken
(2016.07.19.1725)]

  RM: The phenomenon to be accounted for by the model is the curved

pattern (squiggle) produced by the artist.

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.23.0910)]

Oh, what the heck.

···

Martin Taylor (2016.08.21.17.20)–

MT: When Allan Randall and I attempted an information-theoretic analysis of control, Rick strongly objected on the grounds that the perceptual signal carried no information about the disturbance, “none, nada”.

RM: As did Bill Powers. I made the mistake of joining in, making it possible for you to make believe that it was just me objecting to your efforts to see control as an S-R process: information about disturbance causes output.

MT: When Allan and I demonstrated that the disturbance was completely recoverable from a knowledge of the output and the perception, but not from the output alone, which in normal science would be considered a proof that the perception contains information about the disturbance, Rick’s devastating counter was that a controlled perception contains no information about the disturbance.

RM: As was Bill’s. But we both did it with data and models.

MT: That’s far from a unique example, the current power-law dispute being but the latest. The use of normal science tools is forbidden to a scientific revolutionary, and since PCT must be revolutionary, therefore the tools and methods of normal science are irrelevant.

RM: This is an odd conclusion, it seems to me, since I am the only one in this power law dispute who has pushed the relevance of multiple regression – possibly the most common (and, thus, normal) analytical tool used in the social/behavioral sciences – to understanding why the power law is a behavioral illusion.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.23.0910)]

Oh, what the heck.

MT: The use of normal science tools is forbidden to a scientific revolutionary, and since PCT must be revolutionary, therefore the tools and methods of normal science are irrelevant.

RM: This is an odd conclusion, it seems to me, since I am the only one in this power law dispute who has pushed the relevance of multiple regression – possibly the most common (and, thus, normal) analytical tool used in the social/behavioral sciences – to understanding why the power law is a behavioral illusion.

HB : This is really odd conclusion Rick. But judge it for yourself, It seems that Martin is right again. PCT is a revolutionary science if you look at it from right angle. But I have the impression that you are looking all the time from the wrong angle.

Bill P (B:CP) : There are two ways to deal with random variations : average them out or trace them to their causes. The causes of most behaviroal variations are not known, hence the psychologists turn to statistics to render their extrapolation less vaiable. One no longer says, »Rats will eat food« but, »94 out of 100 will eat food.« … //….(Th(The practice of evaluating individuals by means of tests that have only statistical validity is a perversion of science, but is not important in the conceptual scheme…). The use of statistics has become a mainstay of pssychology, to the point where it is a substitude for thought, creativity, and evaluation. If A correlates with B, the experiment is a success, regardless of its significance in any but the statistical sense. In the world of statistical extrapolations, a »model« is a statistical treatment. This kind of science has nothing to do with this book.

Best,

Boris

Best

Rick

···

From: Richard Marken [mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 6:08 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: The power-law dispute as an intractable conflict

Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for themselves.” – William T. Powers

[From Kent McClelland (2016.98.23.2010)]

Posts today from Alex Gomez-Marin and Bruce Abbot have probably made this post irrelevant, but Rick asked me to specify his errors in math and logic, and I am replying . . .

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.22.1130)]

KM: OK. I had imagined that there would be no need for me to point out your basic error in mathematical logic as alleged by Alex, Martin, and Bruce, because this particular criticism has probably been reiterated something like 50 times in their various messages,
but here goes.

KM: The following is a representative sample of posts in which all three discuss the same basic (alleged) problem:

Alex Gomez-Marin in a post on July 16, 2016, in the thread, “Another Behavioral Illusion (was Re: the speed-curvature power law in humans and flies)�:

AGM: I am sorry, Rick, but the general equation for curvature, when combined with the equation for speed, does not give rise to the power law. Please revise your math.

AGM: A second reason (for those not versed in math) is a physical one: curvature is a geometric quantity (thus, only in space), whereas speed is a kinematic one (in space and time). The shape of a scribble in space does not say anything in principle about how
it should be drawn in time.

Martin Taylor (2017.07.18.14.13)

MT: The question isn’t about geometry, it’s about velocity. V = d(distance)/d(time). Your V is just a measure of local curvature. There’s no time in it at all. Alex keeps telling you as much. His original question was about why people slow down at sharp curves,
not about how you describe curves in a Cartesian space.

MT: V(angular velocity) = (d(distance travelled)/d(time))/R for a portion of a circular arc of radius R.

Bruce Abbott (2016.08.18.1855 EDT)

BA: It is now up to you [Rick] to provide a convincing argument or arguments why our mathematical and empirical demonstrations are wrong. These show unequivocally (a) that your analysis of the power law based on including log D in the regression can only give
you back the equation for computing the radius of curvature, (b) that tangential velocity V and radius R can vary independently in nature, even though V is used in the computation of R (as R. Kennaway demonstrated so nicely), (c) the V used to compute R is
not necessarily a change in position with respect to time, in fact time has nothing to do with what is a mathematical relationship used to compute R, (d) using reference variations based on constant increments of theta to compute sines and cosines is guaranteed
to produce a relationship between tangential velocity and position along the ellipse (or other figures so generated so long as R and V vary) that conforms to the power law, and (e) filtering these reference variations through control systems for x and y position
does nothing but reproduce (in somewhat degraded form) the relationships between V and R that are built into the reference variations.

BA: You assert that these mathematical considerations are “irrelevant.� We have shown that they are extremely relevant. You have yet to mount an argument of any sort to prove that they are not relevant, and saying it’s so doesn’t make it so.

KM: Back to me. Again, I want to say that I’m agnostic about the math involved here. I have not taken the time to go through it in detail myself. But their critique, if true, is devastating.

KM: They say, if I understand it, and I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong, that the fundamental error you have made in mathematical logic is to confuse two different variables that have the same label, V. One V has to do with the radius of curvature
and has no relation to time. The other V is defined by the familiar formula for velocity, i.e., distance traveled over time. Because your formulas in your spreadsheet are based on the first V, and yet you claim to be talking about the second V. you have made
an egregious error in mathematical logic (if this criticism is correct).

KM: I have not tried to sift through all your posts in the power-law threads in detail, but I cannot recall having seen anyplace where you actually came to grips with this fundamental critique of your work. From their recent posts, it seems clear that Martin
and Bruce do not think you have responded to it, and you yourself agree that you have not yet convinced them that your spreadsheets are free from errors.

KM: It seems to me that if you decided that you really want to engage with this criticism of your mathematical logic, you would have three rational options: (1) Convince your critics that the two V’s are actually the same thing (sounds remote to me); (2) Convince
your critics that they’ve misconstrued your equations, and you were really talking about the right V (a possibility, but I wouldn’t bet on it—those three guys are pretty&nbbsp;savvy when it comes to math); (3) Gracefully admit that you’ve made a mistake and go back
to the drawing board with your spreadsheets. This last option might, however, be kind of tough for you, since you’ve spent the last couple of months digging yourself in ever deeper into this apparently untenable position. But the upside would be that this
long-running controversy would then be laid to rest, a demise that can’t come too soon from my point of view, and probably also from the perspective of Alex, Martin, and Bruce.

KM: There’s also an irrational option: Continue to post emails to the effect that “I’m right and you’re wrong� or that arguing that their critique is somehow irrelevant, and hope that after another couple hundred posts Martin and Bruce will finally run out
of patience and exit the exchange, leaving you the victor in the field. But in that event you’ll need to consider whether it’s a field worth fighting for.

KM: That’s my advice, for what it’s worth, and I expect you’ll value it at exactly what you paid for it.

My best,

Kent

···

Kent McClelland (2016.22.1145)

. . .

KM: From my perspective, a “revolutionary" PCT science, as Martin describes it (Martin Taylor 2016.08.21.17.20), may indeed require major readjustments in the methods scientists use, but it cannot mean jettisoning
the principle that one’s math and logic must be demonstrably correct to the satisfaction of other scientists, whether or not they accept PCT. Any science that discarded the long-accepted norms of mathematical and logical correctness would not be worthy of
the name, in my view.

RM: It would help if you could point out which principles of math and logic I’ve jettisoned.

KM: And I’m probably out of line here to be giving you unsolicited advice, but in my view all of this has relevance to your internal conflict about doing your own brand of science but also working with others.
If you really want to collaborate with other researchers, you have to be willing to take their criticisms seriously and engage with them either to fix errors in math and logic or convince them that these are not in fact errors.

RM: How have I not been taking criticisms seriously? What errors in math and logic have I not fixed? I agree that I have not convinced anyone that there are no errors in my math or logic. It
might be nice if you told the people I’m trying to convince to take my criticisms seriously.

(I’m remaining agnostic here on whether they are right about the alleged errors in your presentation, since I haven’t taken the trouble to go through all the math myself. The problem, as I see it, is the question
of your apparent lack of serious engagement with your possible collaborators’ objections.)

RM: I don’t know how to be more serious. Perhaps you could tell me how?

KM: I now see that Martin Taylor has just posted another message ( 2016.08.22.10.57), and he has probably explained his own position
far better than I can. So I’ll sign off here, and apologize in advance, Rick, for my unsolicited advice.
RM: I do appreciate the advice, I just wish it were more specific. How about telling me exactly which math and logic errors I’ve made and I’ll try to explain why they are not errors or admit that
this has all been a terrible mistake and the power law is not an example of a behavioral illusion.

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.23.1900)]

···

Kent McClelland (2016.98.23.2010)–

Posts today from Alex Gomez-Marin and Bruce Abbot have probably made this post irrelevant, but Rick asked me to specify his errors in math and logic, and I am replying . . .

Â

KM: The following is a representative sample of posts in which all three discuss the same basic (alleged) problem:Â

 RM: Thanks for these. I saw them all, of course. I just posted a spreadsheet that I’m pretty sure demonstrates rather conclusively – with real movement data, accurate math and normal science – that the power law is a statistical artifact of leaving the variable D out of the regression analyses that are used to determine whether or not a movement conforms to the 1/3 or 2/3 power law. I think it answers many of the criticisms of my analysis that are copies below. But I’m sure there will be more criticisms of that demo. But if we can focus the criticisms on that analysis maybe we can get somewhere.Â

Best regards

Rick

Â
Alex Gomez-Marin in a post on July 16, 2016, in the thread, “Another Behavioral Illusion (was Re: the speed-curvature power law in humans and flies)�:

Â

AGM: I am sorry, Rick, but the general equation for curvature, when combined with the equation for speed, does not give rise to the power law. Please revise your math.Â

Â

AGM: A second reason (for those not versed in math) is a physical one: curvature is a geometric quantity (thus, only in space), whereas speed is a kinematic one (in space and time). The shape of a scribble in space does not say anything in principle about how
it should be drawn in time.Â

Â

Â

Martin Taylor (2017.07.18.14.13)

Â

MT: The question isn’t about geometry, it’s about velocity. V = d(distance)/d(time). Your V is just a measure of local curvature. There’s no time in it at all. Alex keeps telling you as much. His original question was about why people slow down at sharp curves,
not about how you describe curves in a Cartesian space.

Â

MT: V(angular velocity) = (d(distance travelled)/d(time))/R for a portion of a circular arc of radius R.

Â

Â

Bruce Abbott (2016.08.18.1855 EDT)

Â

BA: It is now up to you [Rick] to provide a convincing argument or arguments why our mathematical and empirical demonstrations are wrong. These show unequivocally (a) that your analysis of the power law based on including log D in the regression can only give
you back the equation for computing the radius of curvature, (b) that tangential velocity V and radius R can vary independently in nature, even though V is used in the computation of R (as R. Kennaway demonstrated so nicely), (c) the V used to compute R is
not necessarily a change in position with respect to time, in fact time has nothing to do with what is a mathematical relationship used to compute R, (d) using reference variations based on constant increments of theta to compute sines and cosines is guaranteed
to produce a relationship between tangential velocity and position along the ellipse (or other figures so generated so long as R and V vary) that conforms to the power law, and (e) filtering these reference variations through control systems for x and y position
does nothing but reproduce (in somewhat degraded form) the relationships between V and R that are built into the reference variations.

Â

BA: You assert that these mathematical considerations are “irrelevant.�  We have shown that they are extremely relevant. You have yet to mount an argument of any sort to prove that they are not relevant, and saying it’s so doesn’t make it so.

Â

KM: Back to me. Again, I want to say that I’m agnostic about the math involved here. I have not taken the time to go through it in detail myself. But their critique, if true, is devastating.Â

Â

KM: They say, if I understand it, and I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong, that the fundamental error you have made in mathematical logic is to confuse two different variables that have the same label, V. One V has to do with the radius of curvature
and has no relation to time. The other V is defined by the familiar formula for velocity, i.e., distance traveled over time. Because your formulas in your spreadsheet are based on the first V, and yet you claim to be talking about the second V. you have made
an egregious error in mathematical logic (if this criticism is correct).

Â

KM: I have not tried to sift through all your posts in the power-law threads in detail, but I cannot recall having seen anyplace where you actually came to grips with this fundamental critique of your work. from their recent posts, it seems clear that Martin
and Bruce do not think you have responded to it, and you yourself agree that you have not yet convinced them that your spreadsheets are free from errors.

Â

KM: It seems to me that if you decided that you really want to engage with this criticism of your mathematical logic, you would have three rational options: (1) Convince your critics that the two V’s are actually the same thing (sounds remote to me); (2) Convince
your critics that they’ve misconstrued your equations, and you were really talking about the right V (a possibility, but I wouldn’t bet on it—those three guys are pretty savvy whenn it comes to math); (3) Gracefully admit that you’ve made a mistake and go back
to the drawing board with your spreadsheets. This last option might, however, be kind of tough for you, since you’ve spent the last couple of months digging yourself in ever deeper into this apparently untenable position. But the upside would be that this
long-running controversy would then be laid to rest, a demise that can’t come too soon from my point of view, and probably also from the perspective of Alex, Martin, and Bruce.

Â

KM: There’s also an irrational option: Continue to post emails to the effect that “I’m right and you’re wrong� or that arguing that their critique is somehow irrelevant, and hope that after another couple hundred posts Martin and Bruce will finally run out
of patience and exit the exchange, leaving you the victor in the field. But in that event you’ll need to consider whether it’s a field worth fighting for.

Â

KM: That’s my advice, for what it’s worth, and I expect you’ll value it at exactly what you paid for it.

Â

My best,

Â

Kent

Â


Richard S. MarkenÂ

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

I insist: don’t spend time trying to reveal flaws to those who won’t see them and spend time trying to figure out what you think about the power law without making Rick the inevitable point of reference to be able to say something about it – unless the power law is the excuse to practice a long csgNet habit that has little to do with the contents discussed.

···

Kent McClelland (2016.98.23.2010)–

Posts today from Alex Gomez-Marin and Bruce Abbot have probably made this post irrelevant, but Rick asked me to specify his errors in math and logic, and I am replying . . .

Â

KM: The following is a representative sample of posts in which all three discuss the same basic (alleged) problem:Â

 RM: Thanks for these. I saw them all, of course. I just posted a spreadsheet that I’m pretty sure demonstrates rather conclusively – with real movement data, accurate math and normal science – that the power law is a statistical artifact of leaving the variable D out of the regression analyses that are used to determine whether or not a movement conforms to the 1/3 or 2/3 power law. I think it answers many of the criticisms of my analysis that are copies below. But I’m sure there will be more criticisms of that demo. But if we can focus the criticisms on that analysis maybe we can get somewhere.Â

Best regards

Rick

Â
Alex Gomez-Marin in a post on July 16, 2016, in the thread, “Another Behavioral Illusion (was Re: the speed-curvature power law in humans and flies)�:

Â

AGM: I am sorry, Rick, but the general equation for curvature, when combined with the equation for speed, does not give rise to the power law. Please revise your math.Â

Â

AGM: A second reason (for those not versed in math) is a physical one: curvature is a geometric quantity (thus, only in space), whereas speed is a kinematic one (in space and time). The shape of a scribble in space does not say anything in principle about how
it should be drawn in time.Â

Â

Â

Martin Taylor (2017.07.18.14.13)

Â

MT: The question isn’t about geometry, it’s about velocity. V = d(distance)/d(time). Your V is just a measure of local curvature. There’s no time in it at all. Alex keeps telling you as much. His original question was about why people slow down at sharp curves,
not about how you describe curves in a Cartesian space.

Â

MT: V(angular velocity) = (d(distance travelled)/d(time))/R for a portion of a circular arc of radius R.

Â

Â

Bruce Abbott (2016.08.18.1855 EDT)

Â

BA: It is now up to you [Rick] to provide a convincing argument or arguments why our mathematical and empirical demonstrations are wrong. These show unequivocally (a) that your analysis of the power law based on including log D in the regression can only give
you back the equation for computing the radius of curvature, (b) that tangential velocity V and radius R can vary independently in nature, even though V is used in the computation of R (as R. Kennaway demonstrated so nicely), (c) the V used to compute R is
not necessarily a change in position with respect to time, in fact time has nothing to do with what is a mathematical relationship used to compute R, (d) using reference variations based on constant increments of theta to compute sines and cosines is guaranteed
to produce a relationship between tangential velocity and position along the ellipse (or other figures so generated so long as R and V vary) that conforms to the power law, and (e) filtering these reference variations through control systems for x and y position
does nothing but reproduce (in somewhat degraded form) the relationships between V and R that are built into the reference variations.

Â

BA: You assert that these mathematical considerations are “irrelevant.�  We have shown that they are extremely relevant. You have yet to mount an argument of any sort to prove that they are not relevant, and saying it’s so doesn’t make it so.

Â

KM: Back to me. Again, I want to say that I’m agnostic about the math involved here. I have not taken the time to go through it in detail myself. But their critique, if true, is devastating.Â

Â

KM: They say, if I understand it, and I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong, that the fundamental error you have made in mathematical logic is to confuse two different variables that have the same label, V. One V has to do with the radius of curvature
and has no relation to time. The other V is defined by the familiar formula for velocity, i.e., distance traveled over time. Because your formulas in your spreadsheet are based on the first V, and yet you claim to be talking about the second V. you have made
an egregious error in mathematical logic (if this criticism is correct).

Â

KM: I have not tried to sift through all your posts in the power-law threads in detail, but I cannot recall having seen anyplace where you actually came to grips with this fundamental critique of your work. from their recent posts, it seems clear that Martin
and Bruce do not think you have responded to it, and you yourself agree that you have not yet convinced them that your spreadsheets are free from errors.

Â

KM: It seems to me that if you decided that you really want to engage with this criticism of your mathematical logic, you would have three rational options: (1) Convince your critics that the two V’s are actually the same thing (sounds remote to me); (2) Convince
your critics that they’ve misconstrued your equations, and you were really talking about the right V (a possibility, but I wouldn’t bet on it—those three guys are pretty savvy whenn it comes to math); (3) Gracefully admit that you’ve made a mistake and go back
to the drawing board with your spreadsheets. This last option might, however, be kind of tough for you, since you’ve spent the last couple of months digging yourself in ever deeper into this apparently untenable position. But the upside would be that this
long-running controversy would then be laid to rest, a demise that can’t come too soon from my point of view, and probably also from the perspective of Alex, Martin, and Bruce.

Â

KM: There’s also an irrational option: Continue to post emails to the effect that “I’m right and you’re wrong� or that arguing that their critique is somehow irrelevant, and hope that after another couple hundred posts Martin and Bruce will finally run out
of patience and exit the exchange, leaving you the victor in the field. But in that event you’ll need to consider whether it’s a field worth fighting for.

Â

KM: That’s my advice, for what it’s worth, and I expect you’ll value it at exactly what you paid for it.

Â

My best,

Â

Kent

Â


Richard S. MarkenÂ

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers

[From Rick Marken (2016.08.24.0850)]

···

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Alex Gomez-Marin agomezmarin@gmail.com wrote:

AGM: I insist: don’t spend time trying to reveal flaws to those who won’t see them and spend time trying to figure out what you think about the power law without making Rick the inevitable point of reference to be able to say something about it – unless the power law is the excuse to practice a long csgNet habit that has little to do with the contents discussed.

RM: I completely agree! I’m now satisfied with my take on the power law. I haven’t read any of the replies to my “Omitted Variable Bias” (OVB) analysis but I’m pretty sure they are once again saying that the analysis is all wrong.

RM: What I think would be most productive now would be for me to drop out of this discussion of the power law. This should certainly resolve the over the power law. I’ll read the latest replies to my OVB analysis but I won’t reply to them.

RM: What I suggest is that we hit the reset button and start all over from your initial question, but without me in the mix. Your initial question, Alex, was excellent:

AGM: Any ideas why or how “the control of perception” may give rise to this power law constraining geometry and kinematics in humans, and now in fruit fly larvae?
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/07/05/062166

RM: I would really like to see how people answer your question: The discussion should be considerably less contentious (and more productive) without me in it. So I hope you do get some answers to your question and I promise not to make a peep about anything that is said.

Best regards

Rick


Richard S. Marken

“The childhood of the human race is far from over. We
have a long way to go before most people will understand that what they do for
others is just as important to their well-being as what they do for
themselves.” – William T. Powers