the self

I am a fumbling clinician and a beginning meditator trying to understand PCT
so please bear with me. We are preparing for a mindfulness-based stress
reduction program and PCT may help us with this. Not these questions
specifically, but the mechanics of the model and so on will help us.

My questions now relate to the self.

It seems to me that the level of the self-system is largely outside of
awareness for people. Maybe even more than lower levels. This is true?
Possibly related to this it seems evident to me that people are resistant to
acknowledging a lot of the attachments that go into the self-system. For
example, if I identify with a particular tennis player and someone notices
it I might deny that I have modeled my game after him. Or I might deny that
I identify with Hillary Clinton if I am a woman who is trying to mimic or
actualize those qualities. Does this seem true to people?

If so, why do we resist acknowledging that we identify with a particular
image or ideal? Is it because part of the sense of self is dependent on a
sense of separation from others and if I expose these identifications to
others I lose some of my sense of self, my sense of being separate? Or, now
it is harder for me to portray those qualities--I become more
self-conscious, other people know what I am about now? Or, do I fear that
when people get a feel for the shape of my self, then they can more easily
put a pin into it? Or, is it that I have 2 competing systems, one has to do
with identifying with this or that--the other with authenticity or "being an
original"?

My second question is--maybe this is going for too much--but, I'll try: Is
the self-system the highest level? I don't have the levels down so...

This is a spiritual question in a way. In Zen, the highest level is usually
expressed as pure awareness or Big Mind. This level is usually physically
represented at the very top of the head and is said to transcend thinking.
Is this a level of control in the hierarchy?

Just a little further: In Zen, the ideal is that you function in the 2
dimensions simultaneously. The personal level--the self-system, cognition
and so on, and Big Mind (or space-consciousness is another term.) You
identify in a sense with both levels. Is it possible to have this kind of
presence or awareness at such a level that it is intermingling with the
whole body-mind complex throughout the day? I think that in Zen they are
suggesting this, they call it different things, but ultimately it can be
called the "integrated-free-functioning-self", that is, a marriage between
this spacious awareness and the ongoing self-system process. Now, this may
be an "ideal" and so on, but is this anything unique to Zen or meditation
disciplines or is this common lot to everyone? Do we function in this way
normally anyway, or are we typically totally identified with our
self-system, and acting-out of it with no awareness of doing so at all.
Meaning, are we commonly limited by our private sense of self?

I may be asking the wrong questions here. If you have some better questions,
please give them.

There is an interesting take on this that PCT people might be interested in
on www.bigmind.org, I think that's it. The Zen teacher takes a group of
participants through an exercise calling out different types of sub-selves
common to all of us, and then calling out Big Mind and the integrated
free-functioning self. I'd like to know what you think if you have the time.

Thanks for fielding my questions.

Jason Gosnell, MA
Licensed Mental Health Counselor
Bridgeway Center Inc.
Ft. Walton Beach, FL

"In the mind of the beginner there are many possibilities; in the mind of
the expert there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Kenny Kitzke (2004.09.05)]

<Jason Gosnell>

Hello, Jason. First, the CSGNet uses a convention something like the opening
line where we can see at the outset who is writing/replying along with a
date/time identification for archive purposes. It is also helpful to have some
indication for words written by others and referenced in our post as shown in
the second line.

<I am a fumbling clinician and a beginning meditator trying to understand PCT

so please bear with me.>

I am a retired, fumbling organizational management systems consultant and a
beginning counselor for people experiencing pain or hurt (within
themselves---often related to the behavior of other people) and for people desiring to be
more effective leaders. Understanding PCT/HPCT has proven valuable to me in
such endeavors.

<We are preparing for a mindfulness-based stress

reduction program and PCT may help us with this. Not these questions

specifically, but the mechanics of the model and so on will help us.>

In no organization where I have consulted has it appeared to be free from
stress. Stress is common as rain. Life itself is similar in this respect. The
more stressful any job in an organization is for an individual, the more
likely it appears that their job performance and self-satisfaction will suffer at
least over the long term.

In a state of severe and sustained stress, an employee may become unable to
function properly. Most organizations sponsor some kind of interventional
stress reduction program to deal with such cases for its employees. You probably
know far more about these programs than I do. I have never used one. I have
never felt that I needed to use one.

I am not aware of how successful they are or the psychological theory that
they are based upon. My assumption is that you think that whatever they are,
they do not always work well and could be more effective? Is your goal to
develop a better method for dealing with stress? If so, could you explain better
what you think is deficient about these current "stress management" programs?
Is it an inadequate understanding of how stress is defined or experienced? Is
it a lack of an effective method to deal with stress that is well-defined and
understood?

Is your interest in PCT/HPCT based upon the hope that understanding it might
reveal a more decisive definition of stress in humans and what brings it about
or to find a more successful method of reducing/managing/controlling what one
might consider to be the "inevitable" stress experienced by people/employees?

<My questions now relate to the self.>

In Perceptual Control Theory, the "self" is envisioned as a living and
autonomous organism, a living "control system" which acts/behaves to control its
perceptions. You won't find the word "self" in the PCT vernacular.

<It seems to me that the level of the self-system is largely outside of

awareness for people.>

PCT does address a concept of awareness. And, action/behavior can take place
without awareness. So, that aspect has some similarity.

<Maybe even more than lower levels. This is true?>

In general, this would tend to be true. If you are reading this post while
sitting down, you would probably not have been "aware" of the pressure of the
chair on your butt (at least not until I mentioned it). Yet, it is there and
you are controlling for that sensation the entire time you intend to sit. If
the pressure was not there you would no longer be sitting. You would quickly
become aware of the lack of that pressure as you fall to the floor should you
slip off, or should the chair collapse.

<Possibly related to this it seems evident to me that people are resistant to

acknowledging a lot of the attachments that go into the self-system. For

example, if I identify with a particular tennis player and someone notices

it I might deny that I have modeled my game after him. Or I might deny that

I identify with Hillary Clinton if I am a woman who is trying to mimic or

actualize those qualities. Does this seem true to people?>

Here, some people might resist having their behavior attached to another
person. Some would not. For example, I would not mind at all if someone said,
"Kenny, your serve reminds me of Andy Roddick's!" I would take that as a
compliment with pleasure.

As you learn PCT, I think you would see that PCT explains the behavior in
both instances. The intentions of you and I, our reference perceptions, are
different for such observations about us by others. So, we process the same input
about us behaving like Andy differently, one experiencing a disturbance that
creates error, the other being complimentary feedback that creates pleasure.
PCT offers no criteria for which of these reference perceptions is better or
worse for any person to hold.

<If so, why do we resist acknowledging that we identify with a particular

image or ideal? Is it because part of the sense of self is dependent on a

sense of separation from others and if I expose these identifications to

others I lose some of my sense of self, my sense of being separate? Or, now

it is harder for me to portray those qualities--I become more

self-conscious, other people know what I am about now? Or, do I fear that

when people get a feel for the shape of my self, then they can more easily

put a pin into it? Or, is it that I have 2 competing systems, one has to do

with identifying with this or that--the other with authenticity or "being an

original"?>

Unfortunately, any of these possibilities can be true or untrue for any
individual at different times and in different circumstances. This is consistent
with viewing people as autonomous and unique living control systems. In PCT,
one would perform the Test for the controlled variable to see what variable is
being controlled at what level. In our current world environment, there are
Muslims who would proclaim their belief system loudly in one circumstance while
preferring to hide it in others. PCT explains both behaviors effectively
without prescribing which is right or wrong in any absolute sense. Does this
help?

<My second question is--maybe this is going for too much--but, I'll try: Is

the self-system the highest level? I don't have the levels down so...>

This is the part of your post that triggered my reply, despite not knowing
much about stress and stress reduction programs/methodologies. I am one
disciple of PCT who believes in a self-awareness level above the standard 11-Level
HPCT hierarchy model.

Sometime around 1999, I developed a paper titled "The Twelfth Level and
Beyond" which dealt with the possibility of such a self-concept level and its
relationship to our behavior as human beings. It is not part of PCT orthodoxy,
however.

<This is a spiritual question in a way. In Zen, the highest level is usually

expressed as pure awareness or Big Mind. This level is usually physically

represented at the very top of the head and is said to transcend thinking.

Is this a level of control in the hierarchy?>

As per my previous comment, the current PCT answer is "no." I am not that
familiar with Zen concepts. As a Christian, however, I am quite familiar with
what the Bible purports about the nature of man. It discusses the nature of
our unique human body, our unique human mind and our unique human spirit, our
innermost being (not necessarily rational like the mind but more "emotional"
dealing with "matters of the heart") which is not found in any other living
creatures.

It is hardly a surprise to me that a theory which explains the behavior of
bacteria or mice quite well, could be woefully inadequate in explaining the
behavior of human beings who have a nature that is different and more complex than
the lower forms of life. I ask you, do you think stress is a factor in the
life of a cat? Do cats have a self system that can deal with stress? What is
that system? Can studying stress in cats teach us something valuable about
stress in humans? I am curious about how you see such phenomena.

Anyway, I personally find HPCT to be incomplete in describing the nature of
humankind. While I wish I was wise enough to build on HPCT to gain a more
complete understanding of the nature or men and how and why they do what they do,
my contributions have so far been minimal.

<Just a little further: In Zen, the ideal is that you function in the 2

dimensions simultaneously. The personal level--the self-system, cognition

and so on, and Big Mind (or space-consciousness is another term.) You

identify in a sense with both levels. Is it possible to have this kind of

presence or awareness at such a level that it is intermingling with the

whole body-mind complex throughout the day? I think that in Zen they are

suggesting this, they call it different things, but ultimately it can be

called the "integrated-free-functioning-self", that is, a marriage between

this spacious awareness and the ongoing self-system process. Now, this may

be an "ideal" and so on, but is this anything unique to Zen or meditation

disciplines or is this common lot to everyone? Do we function in this way

normally anyway, or are we typically totally identified with our

self-system, and acting-out of it with no awareness of doing so at all.

Meaning, are we commonly limited by our private sense of self?>

It seems evident to me that I have a separate and identifiable body, mind and
spirit nature. They are interrelated in each human. I sense there is a
unique, hard-wired, system that controls each one but these systems are not
independent. While HPCT deals quite well with the body and mind interface, it seems
to me to get rather fuzzy with the interface between our human spirit, our
solely internal cares and woes and longings, and our body and mind. When we
experience the phenomena of "stress" that you seem focused on, is it our body,
mind or spirit or all three that must be considered? What thoughts do you have
about this from Zen or any other philosophy or theory?

<I may be asking the wrong questions here. If you have some better questions,

please give them.>

Well, your questions have led to more questions. But, that is helpful in
learning, or so it seems at times.

<There is an interesting take on this that PCT people might be interested in

on www.bigmind.org, I think that's it. The Zen teacher takes a group of

participants through an exercise calling out different types of sub-selves

common to all of us, and then calling out Big Mind and the integrated

free-functioning self. I'd like to know what you think if you have the time.

Thanks for fielding my questions.>

Sorry, I do not have the time. I am in between two vacation/visits with out
of state children. There is too much to do in too little time. I guess I
feel stressed! IAE, I am glad you stopped by the CSGNet.

Kenny

Jason Gosnell, MA

Licensed Mental Health Counselor

Bridgeway Center Inc.

Ft. Walton Beach, FL

"In the mind of the beginner there are many possibilities; in the mind of

the expert there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to

Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the

information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data

attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of

Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the

individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the

reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice

that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,

in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in

error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer

at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and

delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0906.1900)]

Jason,

I hope you have survived the hurricane. Thank you for the link to Big
Mind, I found it very valuable. PCT is concerned with the ego -- the
controlling self.

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."

Kenny: These points are very helpful--I am still digesting them.

Thanks, Jason

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems [mailto:KJKitzke@AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:12 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: the self

[From Kenny Kitzke (2004.09.05)]

<Jason Gosnell>

Hello, Jason. First, the CSGNet uses a convention something like the
opening
line where we can see at the outset who is writing/replying along with a
date/time identification for archive purposes. It is also helpful to have
some
indication for words written by others and referenced in our post as shown
in
the second line.

<I am a fumbling clinician and a beginning meditator trying to understand
PCT

so please bear with me.>

I am a retired, fumbling organizational management systems consultant and a
beginning counselor for people experiencing pain or hurt (within
themselves---often related to the behavior of other people) and for people
desiring to be
more effective leaders. Understanding PCT/HPCT has proven valuable to me in
such endeavors.

<We are preparing for a mindfulness-based stress

reduction program and PCT may help us with this. Not these questions

specifically, but the mechanics of the model and so on will help us.>

In no organization where I have consulted has it appeared to be free from
stress. Stress is common as rain. Life itself is similar in this respect.
The
more stressful any job in an organization is for an individual, the more
likely it appears that their job performance and self-satisfaction will
suffer at
least over the long term.

In a state of severe and sustained stress, an employee may become unable to
function properly. Most organizations sponsor some kind of interventional
stress reduction program to deal with such cases for its employees. You
probably
know far more about these programs than I do. I have never used one. I
have
never felt that I needed to use one.

I am not aware of how successful they are or the psychological theory that
they are based upon. My assumption is that you think that whatever they
are,
they do not always work well and could be more effective? Is your goal to
develop a better method for dealing with stress? If so, could you explain
better
what you think is deficient about these current "stress management"
programs?
Is it an inadequate understanding of how stress is defined or experienced?
Is
it a lack of an effective method to deal with stress that is well-defined
and
understood?

Is your interest in PCT/HPCT based upon the hope that understanding it might
reveal a more decisive definition of stress in humans and what brings it
about
or to find a more successful method of reducing/managing/controlling what
one
might consider to be the "inevitable" stress experienced by
people/employees?

<My questions now relate to the self.>

In Perceptual Control Theory, the "self" is envisioned as a living and
autonomous organism, a living "control system" which acts/behaves to control
its
perceptions. You won't find the word "self" in the PCT vernacular.

<It seems to me that the level of the self-system is largely outside of

awareness for people.>

PCT does address a concept of awareness. And, action/behavior can take
place
without awareness. So, that aspect has some similarity.

<Maybe even more than lower levels. This is true?>

In general, this would tend to be true. If you are reading this post while
sitting down, you would probably not have been "aware" of the pressure of
the
chair on your butt (at least not until I mentioned it). Yet, it is there
and
you are controlling for that sensation the entire time you intend to sit.
If
the pressure was not there you would no longer be sitting. You would
quickly
become aware of the lack of that pressure as you fall to the floor should
you
slip off, or should the chair collapse.

<Possibly related to this it seems evident to me that people are resistant
to

acknowledging a lot of the attachments that go into the self-system. For

example, if I identify with a particular tennis player and someone notices

it I might deny that I have modeled my game after him. Or I might deny that

I identify with Hillary Clinton if I am a woman who is trying to mimic or

actualize those qualities. Does this seem true to people?>

Here, some people might resist having their behavior attached to another
person. Some would not. For example, I would not mind at all if someone
said,
"Kenny, your serve reminds me of Andy Roddick's!" I would take that as a
compliment with pleasure.

As you learn PCT, I think you would see that PCT explains the behavior in
both instances. The intentions of you and I, our reference perceptions, are
different for such observations about us by others. So, we process the same
input
about us behaving like Andy differently, one experiencing a disturbance that
creates error, the other being complimentary feedback that creates pleasure.
PCT offers no criteria for which of these reference perceptions is better or
worse for any person to hold.

<If so, why do we resist acknowledging that we identify with a particular

image or ideal? Is it because part of the sense of self is dependent on a

sense of separation from others and if I expose these identifications to

others I lose some of my sense of self, my sense of being separate? Or, now

it is harder for me to portray those qualities--I become more

self-conscious, other people know what I am about now? Or, do I fear that

when people get a feel for the shape of my self, then they can more easily

put a pin into it? Or, is it that I have 2 competing systems, one has to do

with identifying with this or that--the other with authenticity or "being an

original"?>

Unfortunately, any of these possibilities can be true or untrue for any
individual at different times and in different circumstances. This is
consistent
with viewing people as autonomous and unique living control systems. In
PCT,
one would perform the Test for the controlled variable to see what variable
is
being controlled at what level. In our current world environment, there are
Muslims who would proclaim their belief system loudly in one circumstance
while
preferring to hide it in others. PCT explains both behaviors effectively
without prescribing which is right or wrong in any absolute sense. Does
this
help?

<My second question is--maybe this is going for too much--but, I'll try: Is

the self-system the highest level? I don't have the levels down so...>

This is the part of your post that triggered my reply, despite not knowing
much about stress and stress reduction programs/methodologies. I am one
disciple of PCT who believes in a self-awareness level above the standard
11-Level
HPCT hierarchy model.

Sometime around 1999, I developed a paper titled "The Twelfth Level and
Beyond" which dealt with the possibility of such a self-concept level and
its
relationship to our behavior as human beings. It is not part of PCT
orthodoxy,
however.

<This is a spiritual question in a way. In Zen, the highest level is usually

expressed as pure awareness or Big Mind. This level is usually physically

represented at the very top of the head and is said to transcend thinking.

Is this a level of control in the hierarchy?>

As per my previous comment, the current PCT answer is "no." I am not that
familiar with Zen concepts. As a Christian, however, I am quite familiar
with
what the Bible purports about the nature of man. It discusses the nature of
our unique human body, our unique human mind and our unique human spirit,
our
innermost being (not necessarily rational like the mind but more "emotional"
dealing with "matters of the heart") which is not found in any other living
creatures.

It is hardly a surprise to me that a theory which explains the behavior of
bacteria or mice quite well, could be woefully inadequate in explaining the
behavior of human beings who have a nature that is different and more
complex than
the lower forms of life. I ask you, do you think stress is a factor in the
life of a cat? Do cats have a self system that can deal with stress? What
is
that system? Can studying stress in cats teach us something valuable about
stress in humans? I am curious about how you see such phenomena.

Anyway, I personally find HPCT to be incomplete in describing the nature of
humankind. While I wish I was wise enough to build on HPCT to gain a more
complete understanding of the nature or men and how and why they do what
they do,
my contributions have so far been minimal.

<Just a little further: In Zen, the ideal is that you function in the 2

dimensions simultaneously. The personal level--the self-system, cognition

and so on, and Big Mind (or space-consciousness is another term.) You

identify in a sense with both levels. Is it possible to have this kind of

presence or awareness at such a level that it is intermingling with the

whole body-mind complex throughout the day? I think that in Zen they are

suggesting this, they call it different things, but ultimately it can be

called the "integrated-free-functioning-self", that is, a marriage between

this spacious awareness and the ongoing self-system process. Now, this may

be an "ideal" and so on, but is this anything unique to Zen or meditation

disciplines or is this common lot to everyone? Do we function in this way

normally anyway, or are we typically totally identified with our

self-system, and acting-out of it with no awareness of doing so at all.

Meaning, are we commonly limited by our private sense of self?>

It seems evident to me that I have a separate and identifiable body, mind
and
spirit nature. They are interrelated in each human. I sense there is a
unique, hard-wired, system that controls each one but these systems are not
independent. While HPCT deals quite well with the body and mind interface,
it seems
to me to get rather fuzzy with the interface between our human spirit, our
solely internal cares and woes and longings, and our body and mind. When we
experience the phenomena of "stress" that you seem focused on, is it our
body,
mind or spirit or all three that must be considered? What thoughts do you
have
about this from Zen or any other philosophy or theory?

<I may be asking the wrong questions here. If you have some better
questions,

please give them.>

Well, your questions have led to more questions. But, that is helpful in
learning, or so it seems at times.

<There is an interesting take on this that PCT people might be interested in

on www.bigmind.org, I think that's it. The Zen teacher takes a group of

participants through an exercise calling out different types of sub-selves

common to all of us, and then calling out Big Mind and the integrated

free-functioning self. I'd like to know what you think if you have the time.

Thanks for fielding my questions.>

Sorry, I do not have the time. I am in between two vacation/visits with out
of state children. There is too much to do in too little time. I guess I
feel stressed! IAE, I am glad you stopped by the CSGNet.

Kenny

Jason Gosnell, MA

Licensed Mental Health Counselor

Bridgeway Center Inc.

Ft. Walton Beach, FL

"In the mind of the beginner there are many possibilities; in the mind of

the expert there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to

Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the

information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data

attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of

Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the

individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the

reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice

that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,

in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in

error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer

at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and

delete or destroy all copies of this message.
All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

Bruce: Thank you for your response. OK, so does the awareness aspect or
witnessing aspect of the organism intermingle freely with all of this
controlling? And is that only when it is called for--when a major
disturbance arises? Or is that continuous throughout the day, though
variable in intensity?

Also, does the quality of awareness matter in the self-help aspect of PCT?
For change, I mean or for "integration." In Morita Therapy in Japan,
neurotics are noted for having a very narrow band of awareness--they
"fixate" with their attention on symptoms and other events, but the
awareness is not relaxed or expanded enough to allow integration of forces,
sense experiences etc. to take place. It locks on to events and gets stuck
then there is an introduction of thoughts "about" the experience, but the
contact with the experience is poor.

Jason

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Gregory [mailto:bruce_gregory@SNET.NET]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 6:01 PM
To:
Subject: Re: the self

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.0906.1900)]

Jason,

I hope you have survived the hurricane. Thank you for the link to Big
Mind, I found it very valuable. PCT is concerned with the ego -- the
controlling self.

Bruce Gregory

"Great Doubt: great awakening. Little Doubt: little awakening. No
Doubt: no awakening."
All electronic mail communications originating from or transmitted to
Bridgeway Center, Inc. are subject to monitoring. This message and the
information contained in it, which may consist of electronic data
attachments, are the confidential and proprietary communications of
Bridgeway Center, Inc. and are intended to be received only by the
individual or individuals to whom the message has been addressed If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, please take notice
that any use, copying, printing, forwarding or distribution of this message,
in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please immediately notify the Bridgeway Center, Inc. Privacy Officer
at (850) 833-7540 and/or forward the message to hipaa@bridgeway.org and
delete or destroy all copies of this message.

[From Jason Gosnell (2004.09.07)]

I get the format now.

<Kenny Kitzke>

<When we experience the phenomena of "stress" that you seem focused on, is
it our body,
mind or spirit or all three that must be considered? What thoughts do you
have
about this from Zen or any other philosophy or theory?>

In the Zen approach to living, generally it is a little risky to over-focus
on feeling "stressed." Partly this is because the human being may begin to
become too pre-occupied with their own symptoms and ignore the larger
reality that he is functioning in. You're experience of stress or even
distress may be quite normal and part of the whole reorganization process
which is part of growth. So why stop that? Unless, we are talking more toxic
levels of stress where the nervous sytem is damaged, social relationships
are being damaged, etc. related to the experience of being distressed.

Generally, Zen folks would say that anything that causes the thinking mind
to become too dominant--thus losing some integrated or smooth harmonious
functioning with the emotions and the body--to be dangerous. Not that
thinking is not valued, but the Zen emphasis has been mostly we are
top-heavy and not integrated in our functioning, so we are "self"-centered
to a fault. There is a lot of heavy gaining tendencies with humans on the
level of ego that causes excessive stress--I think they would say.

Their attitude would be, "See what needs doing now in the total situation
you are in and do it. Don't pretend you are not one with this situation"
Don't fixate on any one aspect of your experience and become pre-occupied
with it. I am putting it too simply, but generally this is the attitude.
Keep a wide open awareness. Be in touch with the total situation and then
respond to it. In Zen, they might suggest that feeling stressed is quite OK
and that the stress only becomes destructive when you resist what is. When
you refuse to accomodate the present moment and then respond out of that
resistance. This has got some Japanese mentality to it also I think--I am
talking about the Japanese form of Zen. So, we tend to react based on
previous conditioning only and there is not enough space in the mind, not
enough openness to see what is and then respond intelligently.

But, don't these need to be balanced? I have my past conditioning available
and I can be open to new responses. This is why, they say ay least, be open
and ready for anything.

So, the stress reduction approach of mindfulness (awareness) is a little bit
paradoxical. You could say "embrace stress, meet what is, and don't create
unnecessary levels of it within you or around you." I am not sure how useful
it will be for people. We are trying to avoid fueling the tendency of
continued avoidance of stress or ignoring it, or getting lost in it.

Question: Could I mistake the stress or growth and reorganization as
something problematic? Interrupt it, and thereby interrupt growth? Perhaps
it could be problemmatic to a degree--I may only be able to accept certain
amounts of reorganization at a time. Actually, in Zen I think one aspect of
the approach is to encourage the organism to be able to accept the process
of reorganization so that it flows more smoothly. To accept some level of
stress without interrupting it. And, perhaps, to not reorganize at all under
certain conditions...I don't know for sure.

Jason Gosnell

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems [mailto:KJKitzke@AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:12 AM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: the self

[From Kenny Kitzke (2004.09.05)]

<Jason Gosnell>

Hello, Jason. First, the CSGNet uses a convention something like the
opening
line where we can see at the outset who is writing/replying along with a
date/time identification for archive purposes. It is also helpful to have
some
indication for words written by others and referenced in our post as shown
in
the second line.

<I am a fumbling clinician and a beginning meditator trying to understand
PCT

so please bear with me.>

I am a retired, fumbling organizational management systems consultant and a
beginning counselor for people experiencing pain or hurt (within
themselves---often related to the behavior of other people) and for people
desiring to be
more effective leaders. Understanding PCT/HPCT has proven valuable to me in
such endeavors.

<We are preparing for a mindfulness-based stress

reduction program and PCT may help us with this. Not these questions

specifically, but the mechanics of the model and so on will help us.>

In no organization where I have consulted has it appeared to be free from
stress. Stress is common as rain. Life itself is similar in this respect.
The
more stressful any job in an organization is for an individual, the more
likely it appears that their job performance and self-satisfaction will
suffer at
least over the long term.

In a state of severe and sustained stress, an employee may become unable to
function properly. Most organizations sponsor some kind of interventional
stress reduction program to deal with such cases for its employees. You
probably
know far more about these programs than I do. I have never used one. I
have
never felt that I needed to use one.

I am not aware of how successful they are or the psychological theory that
they are based upon. My assumption is that you think that whatever they
are,
they do not always work well and could be more effective? Is your goal to
develop a better method for dealing with stress? If so, could you explain
better
what you think is deficient about these current "stress management"
programs?
Is it an inadequate understanding of how stress is defined or experienced?
Is
it a lack of an effective method to deal with stress that is well-defined
and
understood?

Is your interest in PCT/HPCT based upon the hope that understanding it might
reveal a more decisive definition of stress in humans and what brings it
about
or to find a more successful method of reducing/managing/controlling what
one
might consider to be the "inevitable" stress experienced by
people/employees?

<My questions now relate to the self.>

In Perceptual Control Theory, the "self" is envisioned as a living and
autonomous organism, a living "control system" which acts/behaves to control
its
perceptions. You won't find the word "self" in the PCT vernacular.

<It seems to me that the level of the self-system is largely outside of

awareness for people.>

PCT does address a concept of awareness. And, action/behavior can take
place
without awareness. So, that aspect has some similarity.

<Maybe even more than lower levels. This is true?>

In general, this would tend to be true. If you are reading this post while
sitting down, you would probably not have been "aware" of the pressure of
the
chair on your butt (at least not until I mentioned it). Yet, it is there
and
you are controlling for that sensation the entire time you intend to sit.
If
the pressure was not there you would no longer be sitting. You would
quickly
become aware of the lack of that pressure as you fall to the floor should
you
slip off, or should the chair collapse.

<Possibly related to this it seems evident to me that people are resistant
to

acknowledging a lot of the attachments that go into the self-system. For

example, if I identify with a particular tennis player and someone notices

it I might deny that I have modeled my game after him. Or I might deny that

I identify with Hillary Clinton if I am a woman who is trying to mimic or

actualize those qualities. Does this seem true to people?>

Here, some people might resist having their behavior attached to another
person. Some would not. For example, I would not mind at all if someone
said,
"Kenny, your serve reminds me of Andy Roddick's!" I would take that as a
compliment with pleasure.

As you learn PCT, I think you would see that PCT explains the behavior in
both instances. The intentions of you and I, our reference perceptions, are
different for such observations about us by others. So, we process the same
input
about us behaving like Andy differently, one experiencing a disturbance that
creates error, the other being complimentary feedback that creates pleasure.
PCT offers no criteria for which of these reference perceptions is better or
worse for any person to hold.

<If so, why do we resist acknowledging that we identify with a particular

image or ideal? Is it because part of the sense of self is dependent on a

sense of separation from others and if I expose these identifications to

others I lose some of my sense of self, my sense of being separate? Or, now

it is harder for me to portray those qualities--I become more

self-conscious, other people know what I am about now? Or, do I fear that

when people get a feel for the shape of my self, then they can more easily

put a pin into it? Or, is it that I have 2 competing systems, one has to do

with identifying with this or that--the other with authenticity or "being an

original"?>

Unfortunately, any of these possibilities can be true or untrue for any
individual at different times and in different circumstances. This is
consistent
with viewing people as autonomous and unique living control systems. In
PCT,
one would perform the Test for the controlled variable to see what variable
is
being controlled at what level. In our current world environment, there are
Muslims who would proclaim their belief system loudly in one circumstance
while
preferring to hide it in others. PCT explains both behaviors effectively
without prescribing which is right or wrong in any absolute sense. Does
this
help?

<My second question is--maybe this is going for too much--but, I'll try: Is

the self-system the highest level? I don't have the levels down so...>

This is the part of your post that triggered my reply, despite not knowing
much about stress and stress reduction programs/methodologies. I am one
disciple of PCT who believes in a self-awareness level above the standard
11-Level
HPCT hierarchy model.

Sometime around 1999, I developed a paper titled "The Twelfth Level and
Beyond" which dealt with the possibility of such a self-concept level and
its
relationship to our behavior as human beings. It is not part of PCT
orthodoxy,
however.

<This is a spiritual question in a way. In Zen, the highest level is usually

expressed as pure awareness or Big Mind. This level is usually physically

represented at the very top of the head and is said to transcend thinking.

Is this a level of control in the hierarchy?>

As per my previous comment, the current PCT answer is "no." I am not that
familiar with Zen concepts. As a Christian, however, I am quite familiar
with
what the Bible purports about the nature of man. It discusses the nature of
our unique human body, our unique human mind and our unique human spirit,
our
innermost being (not necessarily rational like the mind but more "emotional"
dealing with "matters of the heart") which is not found in any other living
creatures.

It is hardly a surprise to me that a theory which explains the behavior of
bacteria or mice quite well, could be woefully inadequate in explaining the
behavior of human beings who have a nature that is different and more
complex than
the lower forms of life. I ask you, do you think stress is a factor in the
life of a cat? Do cats have a self system that can deal with stress? What
is
that system? Can studying stress in cats teach us something valuable about
stress in humans? I am curious about how you see such phenomena.

Anyway, I personally find HPCT to be incomplete in describing the nature of
humankind. While I wish I was wise enough to build on HPCT to gain a more
complete understanding of the nature or men and how and why they do what
they do,
my contributions have so far been minimal.

<Just a little further: In Zen, the ideal is that you function in the 2

dimensions simultaneously. The personal level--the self-system, cognition

and so on, and Big Mind (or space-consciousness is another term.) You

identify in a sense with both levels. Is it possible to have this kind of

presence or awareness at such a level that it is intermingling with the

whole body-mind complex throughout the day? I think that in Zen they are

suggesting this, they call it different things, but ultimately it can be

called the "integrated-free-functioning-self", that is, a marriage between

this spacious awareness and the ongoing self-system process. Now, this may

be an "ideal" and so on, but is this anything unique to Zen or meditation

disciplines or is this common lot to everyone? Do we function in this way

normally anyway, or are we typically totally identified with our

self-system, and acting-out of it with no awareness of doing so at all.

Meaning, are we commonly limited by our private sense of self?>

It seems evident to me that I have a separate and identifiable body, mind
and
spirit nature. They are interrelated in each human. I sense there is a
unique, hard-wired, system that controls each one but these systems are not
independent. While HPCT deals quite well with the body and mind interface,
it seems
to me to get rather fuzzy with the interface between our human spirit, our
solely internal cares and woes and longings, and our body and mind. When we
experience the phenomena of "stress" that you seem focused on, is it our
body,
mind or spirit or all three that must be considered? What thoughts do you
have
about this from Zen or any other philosophy or theory?

<I may be asking the wrong questions here. If you have some better
questions,

please give them.>

Well, your questions have led to more questions. But, that is helpful in
learning, or so it seems at times.

<There is an interesting take on this that PCT people might be interested in

on www.bigmind.org, I think that's it. The Zen teacher takes a group of

participants through an exercise calling out different types of sub-selves

common to all of us, and then calling out Big Mind and the integrated

free-functioning self. I'd like to know what you think if you have the time.

Thanks for fielding my questions.>

Sorry, I do not have the time. I am in between two vacation/visits with out
of state children. There is too much to do in too little time. I guess I
feel stressed! IAE, I am glad you stopped by the CSGNet.

Kenny

Jason Gosnell, MA

Licensed Mental Health Counselor

Bridgeway Center Inc.

Ft. Walton Beach, FL

"In the mind of the beginner there are many possibilities; in the mind of

the expert there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

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