Tickling and PCT

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2006.03.08,13:30 EUST)]

Congratulations to the ladies on the list.

I will not talk about the 8. March. But I
will ask a question after reading Randy
Flanagan from Queen’s University in Ontario, Canada.

We all know we don’t laugh if we tickle
ourselves. Many laugh if other people tickle them. Why?

One explanation from Randy Flanagan is that all
perceptions are predictable if we tickle ourselves and because of that, our sensory
capabilities are weakened.

He says that the brain foresee invariable touch
from our own fingertips. This information makes the touch weaker (if I
understand him correct). Therefore we don’t laugh when we tickle ourselves.

Somebody say that we feel tickling ourselves at
the top roof of the mouth. But when I experiment myself, I don’t feel any
tickling there.

How shall we explain it in a PCT way? I think
we talk about control at different levels, but that may be wrong.

Bjorn

[From Rick Marken (2006.03.08.0930)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2006.03.08,13:30 EUST)

Congratulations to the ladies on the list.

Why the special congratulations to the ladies today. I celebrate the ladies every day of the year;-)

How shall we explain it [tickling] in a PCT way? I think we talk about control at different levels, but that may be wrong.

OK. I'll give it a go. I think the PCT interpretation would go something like this:

What we feel when tickled is an emotional experience. When you are tickled, the sensations you get are not what you want so there is error that leads to physiological responses (adrenaline production, for example) that prepare you for action aimed at stopping the tickling (eliminating the error). But when you are being tickled it is hard to stop the tickler so the action is not effective in eliminating the error so the physiological preparation for action (and the sensations that result) continues. I think we sense this physiological preparation for action as the "tickle" sensation. It's the "feeling" component of the emotion of being "tickled". If the tickling is done by someone we like, then we cognitively interpret the "tickling" sensation as funny and we feel "tickled" and we laugh. If the tickling is done by an aggressor, then we in cognitively interpret the same tickling sensation as "annoyance" and we feel "angry" and we growl.

We can't tickle ourselves, I think, because the "tickled" emotion depends on the existence of error _and_ on the cognitive interpretation of the cause of that error as being funny. We can produce the "error" that results in the tickling sensation to some extent; I can tickle my knee and get a little bit of tickle sensation. But it doesn't feel "funny" or "annoying" because there is no cognitive component evaluating it as funny or annoying; it's just me trying to produce a sensation for myself.

Whaddaya think?

Best

Rick

···

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marken@mindreadings.com
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Cell 310 729-1400

[From Erling Jorgensen (2006.03.08 1225 EST)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2006.03.08,13:30 EUST)

We all know we don’t laugh if we tickle ourselves. Many laugh if other
people tickle them. Why?
One explanation from Randy Flanagan is that all perceptions are predictable
if we tickle ourselves and because of that, our sensory capabilities are
weakened.
He says that the brain foresee invariable touch from our own fingertips.
This information makes the touch weaker (if I understand him correct).
Therefore we don’t laugh when we tickle ourselves.

How shall we explain it in a PCT way?

My take on it is a little different from that of Randy Flanagan (per your description).

I think we should look at it through the lens of changing error levels.

When we tickle ourselves, we are bringing that about via control system actions,

therefore the error between our own references & our perceptions is decreasing

in a gradual way. Gradually decreasing error seems more correlated with mild

pleasure or contentment, not the emotions involved with laughter. Laughter

appears to be correlated with a growing sense of error, followed by a more

sudden reduction in terms of a resolution. In some forms of tickling, I’m not even

sure there is the sudden reduction or error, but more a spasmodic expression of

sustained error. Think of the tormented younger sibling, laughing & shrieking

for the “tickling” to stop.

There is one place where I would pick up on the sense of “prediction” that Flanagan

highlights. I believe with many instances of tickling, there may be an anticipatory

component that contributes to the growing sense of error, as one’s current (or

feed-forward?) perceptions for being touched start to drift from their current

reference state. And there may also be an anticipatory sense of the tickling

resolving quickly — like an intentionally (& cooperatively) produced error that is

meant to be quickly reduced — that may contribute to the laughter & enjoyment

of some rounds of tickling, sometimes even before the actual touching even starts.

Think of a child twisting & giggling as a finger starts to rotate in his/her direction.

I do think a PCT view of such things asks about what is happening with changing

error levels, & how are those connected to what we experience as emotions.

The phenomenon of tickling is a good question to raise. Hope it results in some

fruitful reflections.

All the best,

Erling

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[From Bjorn Simonsen (2006.03.09,12:30 EUST)]

From Rick Marken (2006.03.08.0930)]

Whaddaya think?

I appreciated your answer. I had to reread
Bill’s chapter about Emotions in his second edition, a wonderful chapter.

If the tickling is done by someone we
like, then we

cognitively interpret the “tickling” sensation as funny

and we feel “tickled” and we laugh. If the tickling is

done by an aggressor, then we in cognitively interpret

the same tickling sensation as “annoyance” and we

feel “angry” and we growl.

Yes. But I your comment lead to a problem for
me. Usually “tickling” is a disturbance creating a perception. The perceptual
signal is directed to higher levels. At the same time the perception of the visual
(and more) image of the person who is “tickling” is directed to higher levels.
Some places these perceptual signal are compared with reference signals and
error signals are created. These error signals depend on the visual image and
the cognitive references of the person who is “tickling”.

Do our reference signal change at a level
dependent on who is “tickling”? If my wife tickles me, the reference is “I wish
to be tickled”, if it is a bad guy who tickles me, the reference is “I wish not
to be tickled”.

I don’t think so, because if my wife tickles
me the reference signal and the perceptual signal have about the same value,
and the error is near zero. If there is no error, there is neither an interior
error nor adrenaline. And no laughter, I think.

My actions to stop the “tickling “ must be
blocked to stop the laughter.

I think we have a reference always wishing
not to be tickled. And at the same time I have references saying “I wish attention
that).

When my wife tickles me I have a conflict and
a continued error. Because of the error, there will be an interior error and
adrenaline and laughter.

If a bad guy tickles me, there is no
conflict. No laughter.

What do you say?

bjorn

···

from my wife” and “I don’t wish attention from bad guys” (or something like

[Bjorn
Simonsen (2006.03.09,13:30 EUST)]

From Erling Jorgensen (2006.03.08 1225 EST)

When we
tickle ourselves, we are bringing that about

via control system actions, therefore the error between

our own references & our perceptions is decreasing

in a
gradual way. Gradually decreasing error seems

more correlated with mild pleasure or contentment,

not the emotions involved with laughter. Laughter

appears to
be correlated with a growing sense of error,

followed by a more sudden reduction in terms of a

resolution.
In some forms of tickling, I’m not even

sure there
is the sudden reduction or error, but more

a
spasmodic expression of sustained error. Think of

the
tormented younger sibling, laughing & shrieking

for the
“tickling” to stop.

Yes, I like
the way you say it.

There is
one place where I would pick up on the

sense of “prediction” that Flanagan highlights.

I believe
with many instances of tickling, there

may be an
anticipatory component that contributes

to the
growing sense of error, as one’s current (or

feed-forward?)
perceptions for being touched

start to
drift from their current reference state.

I think I
referred to Flanagan in a wrong way. I said “One
explanation from Randy Flanagan is that all perceptions are predictable if we
tickle ourselves and because of that, our sensory capabilities are weakened”.
He didn’t talk about perceptions, he talked about episodes that were predictable.

I don’t think we can predict episodes, I
think we can predict perceptions.

I agree with your anticipatory components and
I think we find them in our references.

As I commented in a mail to Rick, I am not
sure we will have a growing error if one person we appreciate tickles us. But
if a person we don’t know or don’t appreciate tickles us, I see the growing
error.

And there
may also be an anticipatory sense of

the
tickling resolving quickly — like an intentionally

(&
cooperatively) produced error that is meant to

be quickly
reduced — that may contribute to the

laughter
& enjoyment of some rounds of tickling,

sometimes
even before the actual touching even starts.

Think of a
child twisting & giggling as a finger

starts to
rotate in his/her direction.

I don’t
understand what you say. How can a quickly reduced error contribute to an emotion
that leads to laughter.

I do think
a PCT view of such things asks about

what is happening with changing error levels, &

how are those connected to what we experience as emotions.

Yes.

bjorn

[From Erling Jorgensen (2006.03.09 1420 EST)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2006.03.09,13:30 EUST)

Erling Jorgensen (2006.03.08 1225 EST)

And there may also be an anticipatory sense of
the tickling resolving quickly — like an intentionally
(& cooperatively) produced error that is meant to
be quickly reduced — that may contribute to the
laughter & enjoyment of some rounds of tickling,
sometimes even before the actual touching even starts.
Think of a child twisting & giggling as a finger
starts to rotate in his/her direction.

I don’t understand what you say. How can a quickly reduced error

contribute to an emotion that leads to laughter.

First a clarification, I don’t see emotion as a causal feature that _leads

to_ laughter. Rather, laughter is one form of expressing a particular

emotion or cluster of emotions.

More centrally, however, I see different emotions as being correlated

with different patterns of how composite error is changing. (This is a

working hypothesis that’s open to change.) For instance, rapidly

increasing (composite) error seems correlated with emotions such as

fear or anger. Rapidly decreasing error seems correlated with emotions

such as joy or exhilaration. Bill, in his chapter on emotions, & Rick, in

his earlier response to your post, both emphasize the futher piece of

the cognitive interpretation of the event, and I’m not sure if I consider

that piece essential. In a sense, changes in composite error are already

their own (hard-wired?) interpretations, as I see it.

When we experience laughter, it seems that there is a gradually increasing

mismatch or error, followed by a relatively sudden reduction, as the

punch line resolves the joke & the (cognitive?) error that was carefully

built up. In a similar vein, “tickling” seems to be an enacted coordination

between two parties, where there is an agreed-upon increase in the

perceptual mismatch for one party (i.e., being touched in a way that

seems “too stimulating”), in the context of it “not going on too long” which

leads to a rather rapid reduction in the error. I’m thinking that it’s the

error reduction feature that makes for the enjoyable portion of a

tickling episode. And similarly, when the no-longer-funny tickling goes

on too long, it ceases to be enjoyable, but still has the spasmodic

expression of increasing error that looks like laughter.

I’m not sure if this conception holds. It’s actually quite a complicated

expression, this matter of laughter, the more you try to deconstruct it.

What helps to make sense of it for me is to look for how composite error

may be changing, and see if there are consistent aspects of emotional

expression that seem to be correlated with that.

All the best,

Erling

NOTICE: This e-mail communication (including any attachments) is CONFIDENTIAL and the materials contained herein are PRIVILEGED and intended only for disclosure to or use by the person(s) listed above. If you are neither the intended recipient(s), nor a person responsible for the delivery of this communication to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by using the “reply” feature or by calling me at the number listed above, and then immediately delete this message and all attachments from your computer. Thank you.
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[From RIck Marken (2006.03.09.1800)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2006.03.09,12:30 EUST)--

When my wife tickles me I have a conflict and a continued error. Because of the error, there will be an interior error and adrenaline and laughter.

I think this is a good point. There is a conflict when someone you love is tickling you. And I agree that this conflict is probably what prevents you from eliminating the error that results from the tickling. So the error results in adrenaline
secretion which results in "emotional" feelings you perceive as a pleasant (funniness) because at least one of your goals is to have the person tickle you.

If a bad guy tickles me, there is no conflict. No laughter.

Yes. I think when a bad person tickles you there is no conflict preventing you from using any means -- like slugging the jerk-- to prevent the creation of the error that results from the tickling. The fighting leads to adrenaline secretion itself, which produces emotional feelings that you perceive as anger rather than funniness because your goal is to get rid of the tickler.

Best

Rick

···

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Richard S. Marken Consulting
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400