Underlying Philosophy of PCT?

[From Vyv Huddy (2015.12.10.1342)]

VH: I took this from the “talking controlâ€? thread but stripped out all the other comments here because I wondered what people thought about Rick’s comment and an earlier one by
Warren that seemed to be related. These seemed to be about the underlying philophy of PCT. Rick’s comment was:

···

RM: Look at the result of Powers’ calling his book “Behavior: The Control of Perception”. I think that was a great title and a clear description of what the book is about. But a
lot of people, many on this net, took that title to mean that the book justifies a post-modernist philosophy where whatever one thinks is the right thing to do is right because “it’s just my perception”.

VH: This reminded me of another comment Warren made on a fairly recent thread on belief:

WM: I think it certainly helps if our perceptions of the world are shared with other people, and that these perceptions are based on actual entities in the environment (the evidence),
but I don’t think this is always necessary or feasible. We can maintain all kinds of beliefs/goals without them directly being supported by evidence, and they are still helpful to us and don’t necessarily breed conflict. For example, the belief children hold
in Santa Claus leads to all kinds of positive outcomes for them and their parents. I think shows us the difference between a wholly empirical, rationalist stance on perception, and a functionalist stance on perception.

VH:

I agree in a therapy session it isn’t possible to establish the veracity of clients’ beliefs. But Warren you also seem to be allowing for the possibility that perceptions are based on “realâ€?
things in the environment, sometimes, but at the same time saying there should be a “functionalistâ€? take on perception? It would be helpful to clarify because if PCT took that position is there any reason to differ from the view those in the ACT/RFT group
hold (i.e. functional contextualism)?

VH: I think there are reasons we differ and Bill seems to explain how – to me at least - here
http://www.pctweb.org/HayesPowers2011.pdf

VH:

My nascent understanding is that PCT takes a realist stance and not a functionalist stance. This is based on things I’ve read in LCS III that back that up – I don’t have the book here so can ™t
add direct quotes yet. As a PCT novice I’m trying do some foundational work so any ideas from the group would be welcome on this!

[From Vyv Huddy (2015.12.10.1342)]

VH: I took this from the “talking control� thread but stripped out all the other comments here because I wondered what people thought about Rick’s comment and an earlier one by
Warren that seemed to be related. These seemed to be about the underlying philophy of PCT. Rick’s comment was:

···

RM: Look at the result of Powers’ calling his book “Behavior: The Control of Perception”. I think that was a great title and a clear description of what the book is about. But a
lot of people, many on this net, took that title to mean that the book justifies a post-modernist philosophy where whatever one thinks is the right thing to do is right because “it’s just my perception”.

VH: This reminded me of another comment Warren made on a fairly recent thread on belief:

WM: I think it certainly helps if our perceptions of the world are shared with other people, and that these perceptions are based on actual entities in the environment (the evidence),
but I don’t think this is always necessary or feasible. We can maintain all kinds of beliefs/goals without them directly being supported by evidence, and they are still helpful to us and don’t necessarily breed conflict. For example, the belief children hold
in Santa Claus leads to all kinds of positive outcomes for them and their parents. I think shows us the difference between a wholly empirical, rationalist stance on perception, and a functionalist stance on perception.

VH:
I agree in a therapy session it isn’t possible to establish the veracity of clients’ beliefs. But Warren you also seem to be allowing for the possibility that perceptions are based on “realâ€?
things in the environment, sometimes, but at the same time saying there should be a “functionalist� take on perception? It would be helpful to clarify because if PCT took that position is there any reason to differ from the view those in the ACT/RFT group
hold (i.e. functional contextualism)?

VH: I think there are reasons we differ and Bill seems to explain how – to me at least - here
http://www.pctweb.org/HayesPowers2011.pdf

VH:
My nascent understanding is that PCT takes a realist stance and not a functionalist stance. This is based on things I’ve read in LCS III that back that up – I don’t have the book here so can ™t
add direct quotes yet. As a PCT novice I’m trying do some foundational work so any ideas from the group would be welcome on this!

[From Rick Marken (2015.12.12.1245)]

···

 Vyv Huddy (2015.12.10.1342)–

 Â

VH:

My nascent understanding is that PCT takes a realist stance and not a functionalist stance. This is based on things I’ve read in LCS III that back that up – I don’t have the book here so can’t
add direct quotes yet. As a PCT novice I’m trying do some foundational work so any ideas from the group would be welcome on this!

RM: Do you mean a “stance” regarding perception? If so, I would call the PCT stance “constructivist”, though I’m not sure I know exactly what the “realist” or “functionalist” stances are. I say “constructivist” because, per the basic PCT control diagram, the perceptual input function can be seen to be “constructing” a perception from the sensory effects of environmental stimulation.Â

RM: In PCT the environment side of the control diagram is not the environment that we experience – the one made up of people, trees, houses, books, music, etc. Rather, it’s the model of the environment that we get from physics and chemistry – a model that includes variables like electromagnetic and acoustic energy and gravitational forces-- variables that constitute the environmental stimuli that produce the sensory effects that are the raw materials from which our perceptual experience is created.Â

RM: This is called a “constructivist” view of perception to distinguish it from what I would call a “detectionist” view of perception. The “detectionist” view is probably the one that is most common in psychology and also most intuitively comfortable to lay people. It is the view that perception is seeing reality “though a glass darkly”. This view assumes that there is a world out there – the environment made up of people, trees, houses, books, music, etc. – and that the job of perception is to “detect” these things.

RM: The PCT view is that what we experience as an environment made up of people, trees, houses, books, music, etc. is a construction based on the sensory stimulation caused by the environment modeled by physics and chemistry. At the sensory surface this environment is William James’s “booming, buzzing confusion”. According to PCT, the perceptual functions at different levels of the nervous system construct different types of perceptions: intensities, sensations, configurations, transitions, … system concepts – based on this booming, buzzing sensory input. Â

RM: Implicitly, PCT says that all humans come pre-wired to construct these different types of perception. So PCT says that everyone perceive the world in the same way – in terms of the perceptual types in the hierarchy. My guess is that the nervous system constructs perceptions of these types for evolutionary reasons; people who perceived the world in these terms were able to control more successfully – and, thus, were more likely to survive and reproduce – than those who didn’t. So I believe that there is functional significance to the way we perceive the world, so I guess I’m a constructivist-functionalist.Â

RM: I think I’m also a realist in the sense that I believe that there is a real world out there, even though I know that what I experience as “reality” is a perceptual construction. I believe that the real world out there is pretty closely approximated by the models of physics and chemistry. And I also think that the lowest level types of perceptual variables we construct – intensities, sensations, configurations, transitions – correspond pretty closely to what is “really” going on in reality. The perception of intensity corresponds (though non-linearly) to the intensity of the physical variables of the physical model of reality. Same with sensations, like color, which correspond to specific combinations of the intensity of physical variables.Configurations correspond to physical variables that group together, as in collections of molecules that we see as objects of a particular shape.Â

RM: I think once we get to the hypothetical event level the perceptions that are constructed are more arbitrarily related to what the physical models say is actually “out there”. I don’t think there is anything in physical reality that constrains us to construct perceptions of events, programs, principles or system concepts. I think primates, and the homo line in particular, have evolved the ability to construct perceptions of this type in order to be able to control what they have to control in order to survive – language (program perception), sets of rules for interpersonal interaction (principles) and collections of principles to allow the formation of large societies (system concepts).Â

RM: So I would say that the PCT stance on perception (or, epistemology) is that the perceptions that we control are constructions based on sensory data that is caused by an external (environmental) reality that is approximated by the models of physics and chemistry, and these constructions are not arbitrary but have functional significance in the sense that they allow us to control the aspects of physical reality that we have to be able to control in order to be able to survive. In other words, I would say that the PCT stance is constructivist – realist – functionalist.Â

BestÂ

Rick


Richard S. MarkenÂ

www.mindreadings.com
Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of  Controlling People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human
Available at Amazon on December 22

Hi Warren,

ACT literature often says “what’s true is what works” but I’m not sure what “works” means because ACT / RFT don’t define progress or change relative to reference values… in contrast your description below makes sense as would be expected! Thanks.

VYv

···

From: Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com
Sent: 11 December 2015 16:31
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Underlying Philosophy of PCT?

Hi Vyv, to be honest I am not entirely sure what they take functionalist to mean. What I understand though is that the input function to a control system is modifiable through reorganisation. It extracts selective qualities of the environment from countless
possibilities, honing in on those functions that serve the purpose of overall control of key intrinsic variables. So the ‘biases’ reported in cognitive approaches may actually be the consequence of reorganisation in the context of chronic conflict…

Warren

On 11 Dec 2015, at 13:40, Huddy, Vyv v.huddy@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

[From Vyv Huddy (2015.12.10.1342)]

VH: I took this from the “talking control” thread but stripped out all the other comments here because I wondered what people thought about Rick’s comment and an earlier one by Warren that seemed to
be related. These seemed to be about the underlying philophy of PCT. Rick’s comment was:

RM: Look at the result of Powers’ calling his book “Behavior: The Control of Perception”. I think that was a great title and a clear description of what the book is about. But a lot of people, many
on this net, took that title to mean that the book justifies a post-modernist philosophy where whatever one thinks is the right thing to do is right because “it’s just my perception”.

VH: This reminded me of another comment Warren made on a fairly recent thread on belief:

WM: I think it certainly helps if our perceptions of the world are shared with other people, and that these perceptions are based on actual entities in the environment (the evidence), but I don’t think
this is always necessary or feasible. We can maintain all kinds of beliefs/goals without them directly being supported by evidence, and they are still helpful to us and don’t necessarily breed conflict. For example, the belief children hold in Santa Claus
leads to all kinds of positive outcomes for them and their parents. I think shows us the difference between a wholly empirical, rationalist stance on perception, and a functionalist stance on perception.

VH: I agree in a therapy session it isn’t possible to establish the veracity of clients’ beliefs. But Warren you also seem to be allowing
for the possibility that perceptions are based on “real” things in the environment, sometimes, but at the same time saying there should be a “functionalist” take on perception? It would be helpful to clarify because if PCT took that position is there any reason
to differ from the view those in the ACT/RFT group hold (i.e. functional contextualism)?

VH: I think there are reasons we differ and Bill seems to explain how – to me at least - here
http://www.pctweb.org/HayesPowers2011.pdf

VH: My nascent understanding is that PCT takes a realist stance and not a functionalist stance. This is based on things I’ve read
in LCS III that back that up – I don’t have the book here so can’t add direct quotes yet. As a PCT novice I’m trying do some foundational work so any ideas from the group would be welcome on this!

Agreed, as does Rick’s!
Warren

···

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Huddy, Vyv v.huddy@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

Hi Warren,Â

ACT literature often says “what’s true is what works” but I’m not sure what “works” means because ACT / RFT don’t define progress or change relative to reference values… in contrast your description below makes sense as would be expected! Thanks.Â

VYv


From: Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com
Sent: 11 December 2015 16:31
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Underlying Philosophy of PCT?
Â

Hi Vyv, to be honest I am not entirely sure what they take functionalist to mean. What I understand though is that the input function to a control system is modifiable through reorganisation. It extracts selective qualities of the environment from countless
possibilities, honing in on those functions that serve the purpose of overall control of key intrinsic variables. So the ‘biases’ reported in cognitive approaches may actually be the consequence of reorganisation in the context of chronic conflict…

Warren

On 11 Dec 2015, at 13:40, Huddy, Vyv v.huddy@ucl.ac.uk wrote:

[From Vyv Huddy (2015.12.10.1342)]

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VH: I took this from the “talking control� thread but stripped out all the other comments here because I wondered what people thought about Rick’s comment and an earlier one by Warren that seemed to
be related. These seemed to be about the underlying philophy of PCT. Rick’s comment was:

Â

RM: Look at the result of Powers’ calling his book “Behavior: The Control of Perception”. I think that was a great title and a clear description of what the book is about. But a lot of people, many
on this net, took that title to mean that the book justifies a post-modernist philosophy where whatever one thinks is the right thing to do is right because “it’s just my perception”.

Â

VH: This reminded me of another comment Warren made on a fairly recent thread on belief:

Â

WM: I think it certainly helps if our perceptions of the world are shared with other people, and that these perceptions are based on actual entities in the environment (the evidence), but I don’t think
this is always necessary or feasible. We can maintain all kinds of beliefs/goals without them directly being supported by evidence, and they are still helpful to us and don’t necessarily breed conflict. For example, the belief children hold in Santa Claus
leads to all kinds of positive outcomes for them and their parents. I think shows us the difference between a wholly empirical, rationalist stance on perception, and a functionalist stance on perception.

Â

VH: I agree in a therapy session it isn’t possible to establish the veracity of clients’ beliefs. But Warren you also seem to be allowing
for the possibility that perceptions are based on “real� things in the environment, sometimes, but at the same time saying there should be a “functionalist� take on perception? It would be helpful to clarify because if PCT took that position is there any reason
to differ from the view those in the ACT/RFT group hold (i.e. functional contextualism)?Â

Â

VH: I think there are reasons we differ and Bill seems to explain how –“ to me at least - here
http://www.pctweb.org/HayesPowers2011.pdf

Â

VH: My nascent understanding is that PCT takes a realist stance and not a functionalist stance. This is based on things I’ve read
in LCS III that back that up – I don’t have the book here so can’t add direct quotes yet. As a PCT novice I’m trying do some foundational work so any ideas from the group would be welcome on this!

Dr Warren Mansell
Reader in Clinical Psychology
School of Psychological Sciences
2nd Floor Zochonis Building
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester M13 9PL
Email: warren.mansell@manchester.ac.uk
Â
Tel: +44 (0) 161 275 8589
Â
Website: http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/staff/131406
Â
Advanced notice of a new transdiagnostic therapy manual, authored by Carey, Mansell & Tai - Principles-Based Counselling and Psychotherapy: A Method of Levels Approach

Available Now

Check www.pctweb.org for further information on Perceptual Control Theory

Vyv Huddy (2015.12.15.1542)

···

[From Rick Marken (2015.12.12.1245)]

RM: Do you mean a “stance” regarding perception? If so, I would call the PCT stance “constructivist”, though I’m not sure I know exactly what the “realist”
or “functionalist” stances are. I say “constructivist” because, per the basic PCT control diagram, the perceptual input function can be seen to be “constructing” a perception from the sensory effects of environmental stimulation.

VH: This makes perfect sense Rick thanks. Other people have used the term constructivist (e.g. personal construct theory of Kelly) in ways that are sympathetic to this and to other stuff on PCT.

RM: So I would say that the PCT stance on perception (or, epistemology) is that the perceptions that we control are constructions based on sensory data that is caused by an external (environmental) reality that is approximated
by the models of physics and chemistry, and these constructions are not arbitrary but have functional significance in the sense that they allow us to control the aspects of physical reality that we have to be able to control in order to be able to survive.
In other words, I would say that the PCT stance is constructivist – realist – functionalist.

VH: This is really great summary Rick thanks for your reply.

VH: I noticed Bill has written relevant pieces on philosophy in both LCS I and LCS II that I’m finding my way through,
particularly “the good, the true and the real”.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken

www.mindreadings.com

Author, with Timothy A. Carey, of Controlling
People: The Paradoxical Nature of Being Human
.
Available at Amazon on December 22