[From MK (2014.11.26.2230 CET)]
···
[From Rick Marken (961016.0900)]
[…]
I think this is a great idea. We do repeat the same things over and over
again on CSGNet, usually saying them in somewhat different ways, in an effort
to get people to understand some of the basic facts about how control systems
work. Of course, we usually get nowhere because most of us (because we ARE
control systems) are far more interested defending our existing ideas then
learning new ones. I think it would be great to be able to just type numbers
as my reply to the many misconceptions about control and control systems that
are repeatedly posted here on CSGNet. I agree that “X clearly didn’t know
what behavior is” would probably be number one on my list, followed by:
- Behavior is control.
[From Rick Marken (980825.0825)]
Mary Powers:
I don’t think she is controlling his behavior.
Me:
Mary, have you gone over to the dark side, too?
I think Vivian is clearly controlling Aaron’s behavior.
Bruce Gregory (980824.1552 EDT) –
Boy, is PCT difficult!
Only for those who don’t want to learn it.
Only three people in the world really understand
it, and two of them don’t agree.
I’m not sure we disagree. In PCT, to behave is to control.
You can’t control the fact that another person is controlling.
So in this sense Mary is correct; Vivian is not controlling
Aaron’s behavior in the sense that she is not controlling the
fact that Aaron is controlling. I went through this discussion
with Bruce Nevin some time ago and agreed with Bruce when he
made exactly this point.
But then we have the problem of verbally describing what Vivian
is doing. She may not be controlling Aaron’s behavior (because
behavior is control) but she is certainly controlling something
( Aaron’s position in his chair, his hand movements, etc). When I
had this discussion with Bruce Nevin I suggested describing the
kind of behavior (controlling) being done by Vivian in her
interaction with Aaron as “controlling aspects of behavior”.
This makes sense to me; Vivian is not controlling the fact that
that Aaron is controlling (she’s not controlling his behavior);
she is controlling variable aspects of Aaron’s behavior (arm
movements, body movements, etc) that may or may not be variables
that Aaron is also controlling.
The sheepdog is controlling ‘an aspect’ of the sheep’s control. How the relative spatial position of the sheep, as perceived by the dog, is an ‘aspect’ of the sheep’s control is still something of a mystery
as the sheep, at least in the classic Control of Control demonstration, can’t perceive “its” spatial position.
The behavers did not consider the notion of the Behavior to be a pre-existing belief or an idea. It was clearly there to be seen right in front of their eyes and it was believed to be a fact that “it” could be controlled.
Except for when “it” was control.
M