Well, How About That?

[From Fred Nickols (2014.10.11.1423 EDT)]

And again no mention of Bill Powers or PCT. Drat!

Fred Nickols

···

From: Ted Cloak [mailto:tcloak@unm.edu]
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:13 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Well, How About That?

From Human ethology listserv:

10

Closed-loop neuroscience and neuroengineering OPEN ACCESS

Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:44 am (PDT) . Posted by:

“Jay Feierman” jrfeier

Closed-loop neuroscience and neuroengineering
<http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncir.2014.00115/full?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Neuroscience-w41-2014>Steve
M Potter, Ahmed El Hady, and Eberhard E Fetz

[Martin Taylor 2014.10.11.14.40]

True, but the editorial is largely concerned with the papers in the

issue. Maybe they will mention Bill. Or maybe not.
Martin

···
        [From Fred

Nickols (2014.10.11.1423 EDT)]

        And again no

mention of Bill Powers or PCT. Drat!

Fred Nickols

From:
Ted Cloak Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:13 PM
Well, How About That?

From Human ethology listserv:

10

[ Closed-loop

neuroscience and neuroengineering OPEN ACCESS ](Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)

Sat

Oct 11, 2014 6:44 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Jay

Feierman" jrfeier

          Closed-loop

neuroscience and neuroengineering
<http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncir.2014.00115/full?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Neuroscience-w41-2014>Steve
M Potter, Ahmed El Hady, and Eberhard E Fetz

mailto:tcloak@unm.edu
Sent:
**To:**csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject:

[From Rick Marken (2014.10.11.1530)]

···

Fred Nickols (2014.10.11.1423 EDT) in reply to

And again no mention of Bill Powers or PCT. Drat!

RM: I think that’s simply because it is not about control. Lots of people have noticed that behavior occurs in a closed loop. We used to go to Cybernetics conferences where the logo of the conference was a snake eating its tail: a closed loop. PCT is not just about the fact that behavior occurs in a closed loop – that perception causes the actions that are affecting the perception – it’s about what this means: it means that behavior is a process of control (in fact) and this fact is explained by a theory that says what is controlled are perceptual representations of the environment: controlled variables. When you find a paper that talks about studying the neurophysiological basis of control of perceptual variables and that doesn’t mention Powers, then we will have something interesting on our hands. Until then it’s just the SOS.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Rick Marken (2014.10.12.1010)]

···

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Ted Cloak tcloak@unm.edu wrote:

So, why do we let this go by, again and again. Shouldn’t the Control Systems Group reply, as a group, with a thoroughgoing critique, pointing out that PCT has
been around for a long time, specializes in closed loops and feedback, and demands respect?

Ted

RM: I don’t think the Control Systems Group is of one mind about anything, not least what PCT is about. And I personally find demanding respect to be obnoxious and people who do demand respect (and I know several) to be unworthy of it. Indeed, I have found that those who are subjected to the most disrespect – eg. Christ, Powers, Obama – to be the most worthy of it.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.

Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

[From Rick Marken (2014.10.13.0905)]

···

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

An exception to Rick’s point? Somehow Buddha and the Dalai Lama manage to dodge disrespect and still deserve respect.

RM: I think I made my point poorly. I didn’t mean to imply that people like Christ, Powers and Obama are worthy of respect because they have been shown disrespect. I mean only that many people who have been shown considerable disrespect are often deserving of the most respect. There are many people who are deservedly disrespected!!

RM: My point is only that respect is not something that can be demanded (controlled). It can only be given. Like mercy, respect is not strained but droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place below.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

RM: I don’t think the Control Systems Group is of one mind about anything, not least what PCT is about. And I personally find demanding respect to be obnoxious and people who do demand respect (and I know several) to be unworthy of it. Indeed, I have found that those who are subjected to the most disrespect – eg. Christ, Powers, Obama – to be the most worthy of it.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.

Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

From Human ethology listserv:

···

10

[ Closed-loop

neuroscience and neuroengineering OPEN ACCESS ](https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/human-ethology/conversations/topics/61970;_ylc=X3oDMTJzMGY4MTNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE5NDU5MzAzBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MzEyNQRtc2dJZAM2MTk3MARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxNDEzMDM1MDg3)

Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:44 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Jay

Feierman" jrfeier

Closed-loop neuroscience and neuroengineering
<http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncir.2014.00115/full?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Neuroscience-w41-2014>Steve
M Potter, Ahmed El Hady, and Eberhard E Fetz

So, why do we let this go by, again and again. Shouldn’t the Control Systems Group reply, as a group, with a thoroughgoing critique, pointing out that PCT has
been around for a long time, specializes in closed loops and feedback, and demands respect?

Ted

···

From: Henry Yin, Ph.D. [mailto:hy43@duke.edu]
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Dag Forssell
Cc: Ted Cloak
Subject: Re: Well, How About That?

And a closer look at the articles tells me that they are garbage as usual.

On Oct 11, 2014, at 5:05 PM, Henry Yin hy43@duke.edu wrote:

To my knowledge there is no closed loop neuroscience.

I think the work mentioned does not sound promising at all. What’s closed loop? That’s never mentioned. What’s feedback? It’s not clear if the authors know what they are talking about.

I really think people on CSG should stop forward articles just because words like “closed loop” and “negative feedback” are used. For most of his life, Bill was trying to explain how people misunderstand these words and what they really
mean.

H

On Oct 11, 2014, at 2:06 PM, Dag Forssell dag@livingcontrolsystems.com wrote:

Henry,

This just in to CSGnet.

Dag

From: Ted Cloak tcloak@unm.edu
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Well, How About That?
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 16:12:32 +0000
Reply-To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

from Human ethology listserv:

10

[ Closed-loop neuroscience

and neuroengineering OPEN ACCESS ](Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos)

Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:44 am (PDT) . Posted by:

“Jay Feierman” jrfeier

Closed-loop neuroscience and neuroengineering
< http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncir.2014.00115/full?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Neuroscience-w41-2014

Steve
M Potter, Ahmed El Hady, and Eberhard E Fetz

An exception to Rick’s point? Somehow Buddha and the Dalai Lama manage to dodge disrespect and still deserve respect. Maybe they don’t wind people up as much as Jesus, Powers and Obama because they aren’t perceived as so controlling of others! But then do they get as much done!?

:wink:

···

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Ted Cloak tcloak@unm.edu wrote:

So, why do we let this go by, again and again. Shouldn’t the Control Systems Group reply, as a group, with a thoroughgoing critique, pointing out that PCT has
been around for a long time, specializes in closed loops and feedback, and demands respect?

Ted

RM: I don’t think the Control Systems Group is of one mind about anything, not least what PCT is about. And I personally find demanding respect to be obnoxious and people who do demand respect (and I know several) to be unworthy of it. Indeed, I have found that those who are subjected to the most disrespect – eg. Christ, Powers, Obama – to be the most worthy of it.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.

Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

Yep I get the drift, just being churlish w

···

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Warren Mansell wmansell@gmail.com wrote:

An exception to Rick’s point? Somehow Buddha and the Dalai Lama manage to dodge disrespect and still deserve respect.

RM: I think I made my point poorly. I didn’t mean to imply that people like Christ, Powers and Obama are worthy of respect because they have been shown disrespect. I mean only that many people who have been shown considerable disrespect are often deserving of the most respect. There are many people who are deservedly disrespected!!

RM: My point is only that respect is not something that can be demanded (controlled). It can only be given. Like mercy, respect is not strained but droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place below.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

RM: I don’t think the Control Systems Group is of one mind about anything, not least what PCT is about. And I personally find demanding respect to be obnoxious and people who do demand respect (and I know several) to be unworthy of it. Indeed, I have found that those who are subjected to the most disrespect – eg. Christ, Powers, Obama – to be the most worthy of it.

Best

Rick


Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.

Author of Doing Research on Purpose.
Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble