What is collective control?

In reverse order, I would disagree with that idea too, if anybody had said it. I think what you’re referring to is the observed reference value of an observed collectively controlled variable. To talk of its ‘stability’ is merely a paraphrase of saying that it is controlled. But because the continuous control of it cannot be attributed to the control actions of any one individual, but rather is the net result of control by many individuals at idiosyncratic individual reference levels, the observations (a variable maintained at a reference level despite disturbances) have an appearance as though a single control system were controlling it at the observed level. Even in an apparently simple dyadic interaction, e.g. at the point of sale/purchase of some good, it is prohibitively complex to include in a model every individual with a control loop that is closed through aspects of the transaction, the price of the good, the value (‘buying power’) of the money, the tamper-resistant packaging, and most immediately the expectations as to what comes next after each move in the transaction.

Begin with an observed phenomenon, a controlled variable C and its reference state. The phenomenon requires explanation. The familiar explanation is by a model of a control system. But further observe that the variable C is not maintained at its reference value by any single control system. Observe that its state is affected by the control outputs of many control systems in a population of control systems.

Another perspective on the problem: There are perceptions (environmental phenomena) which it is difficult or impossible for an individual to change. Moving a mountain, or controlling a perception that the sun rises in the east. Among configuration perceptions there are mountains that no one can reach out and move because of limitations of their output capacity and characteristics of the environmental feedback path (laws of physics).

There are perceptions C which it is difficult for an individual to change because many individuals are controlling C at once. One individual disturbing its manifest level or value cannot overcome resistance by the many who are also controlling it, the individual has only slight effect. They need not be controlling C at the same value for their separate outputs to amount to a net resistance to the disturbance. These are observable phenomena which require explanation. It is not hard to find examples. It is impossible to do anything coherent concerning the (proposed) Principle or System Concept levels without acknowledging that those perceptual variables and their reference levels are social in nature and social in origin. Anything that came to be in your environment by being manufactured, sold, and purchased or given has been overtly subject to collective control, and collective control of it may become evident at any time, as e.g. in what you do when your keyboard fails fully to serve as your means of controlling other perceptions.

Why is this not a source of continuous conflict and reorganization? Well, some folks are rankled by a great many collectively controlled variables. In the extreme, they are rankled at any social standards, expectations, rules, laws, conventions, protocols for polite or civil interaction, etc. But most of us adapt to them in the same way we go around mountains rather than trying to move them.

Collectively controlled perceptions often (maybe usually) are controlled so as to function as means of controlling other perceptions. The reference value for C is “I can use C as means to control x”." A disturbance to the collective reference level for C affects the individual only when its utility is degraded, that is, when disturbance to C indirectly disturbs the individual’s control of other perceptions that more immediately matter. For a particular individual at a particular time the reference value for the bus schedule is does it get me to the dentist on time. If the granularity of the schedule gets me there either late or 55 minutes early that is a disturbance to controlling efficient use one’s time, tolerable by bringing a book or a laptop or scheduling in some shopping, etc. If the bus driver’s control of being on schedule is disturbed by traffic slowed by a fender bender the 55 minute lag is a good thing, tolerance built into that loop. Or if you’re late it affects your participation in the collective control of the schedule of the dentist’s office. A phone call might enable them to accommodate your changed participation in the collective control of their schedule. If the driver’s control of being on schedule is lackadaisical, one or more of the regular riders might make a phone call or write a letter.

In the Crowd demo, the agents do have in common a perception and a reference value for it, but they do not control the state of that perception (the ‘attractive’ individual). They control their individual relations of proximity to it, simultaneously with their proximity to one another, perceptions which in a relative and somewhat abstract sense they have in common, but these are not collectively controlled perceptions, they are individually controlled with collective side effects. There is a collective phenomenon as a byproduct of individual control, but there is no collective control. Not the same at all. The observed social phenomenon (rings and arcs) is not perceived as such. But as I pointed out it would be possible to add to the model one or more individuals which perceive the rings and arcs as such and employ them as means of controlling other perceptions, e.g. in the observed situation in a park a speaker with contrary views might step up on a bench and control to draw individuals from that ring to this ring, or a vendor might push their ice cream cart conveniently near and ring a bell.

You have been saying “I won’t believe such phenomena exist until you show me data”. How to obtain data for such phenomena Is one problem. Not just any data, but data relevant and appropriate for building a model. So the prior problem is how to model concurrent control by a population. The problem then is how to deal with the complexity in an orderly way, working with generalizations over aggregates while ensuring that the generalizations are in principle reducible to control by the individual agents in the population. For discussion and design, the generalizations have names. Because PCT has not previously dealt with these problems, these names are new to PCT.

You say that Martin tried to add to and deduct from PCT.

As additions, you object to concepts that Kent and Martin developed to grapple with the enormous complexity of social phenomena in which a given variable has an observed reference level which is influenced by tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions of people controlling that variable whenever its departure from the observed reference value interferes with their (diverse) control of other perceptions. Of course this must all be reducible to control by individuals, in principle. But to begin verifying how it happens it is necessary first to recognize that it happens, and to have a coherent and consistent way of talking about it.

What ‘deductions’ did he propose? I don’t think there are any.

Don’t get too huffy. Everything that has been tested is also not necessarily true. Theories are provisional, never final. It is not possible to test a model of a given phenomenon of collective control until you have a model of collective control to test.

Again, not quite. Martin investigated the properties of control systems, viewed as systems rather than from within the system. He was trained in engineering physics, then operations research (which concerns the functioning of systems), and then experimental psychology, followed by a long research career in assuredly non-S/R psychology. Beginning as an undergraduate and throughout his career he was most interested in communication interactions among autonomous agents, and he developed a theoretical apparatus for this (layered protocol theory, LPT) which Bill agreed is a specialization or subset within PCT. Looking at PCT analytically, he applied mathematical and conceptual tools of physics, such as thermodynamics, which have been exhaustively tested and demonstrated to apply to all physical systems, control systems included. This analytical point of view is not your interest.

This is what he said he was doing in his last work, Powers of Perceptual control. He said it

builds on the roots Powers planted and nurtured for so many years, developing in directions he often suggested but seldom explored as well as in some directions of which he did not approve. It speculates and offers tentative implications of PCT in many different domains of ordinarily ‘siloed’ research. It offers an organic structure with branches that will certainly not be as strong as the rooted trunk provided by Bill Powers. Nevertheless, I hope that its rambling branches may perhaps show some of the power of Bill’s vision.

A more specific and ‘concrete’ example

Sometimes PCT investigations suggest that commonly believed ‘good things’ may not be so good at all. One example is the commonly held belief that national governments should strive to attain and maintain a balanced budget. A PCT analysis (following the lead of an IEEE conference paper by Samuel Bagno (Bagno 1955), suggests that if an economy is not to stagnate and run down, with increasingly tall and narrow islands of extreme wealth among oceans of poverty, governments should instead aim for an average annual deficit of perhaps 2% to 3% of GDP with a similar rate of inflation. A PCT analysis of why these ‘islands of wealth’ matter for social stability is developed in Chapter IV.7.
 
The increasing tide of autocratic populism in the developed world may perhaps be largely attributed to the fact that Bagno’s analysis has been totally ignored by those economists to whom politicians listen. Economic advisors to government leaders continue to claim, I think falsely, that balanced budgets, or even government surpluses, are targets to be aimed at on average. Both Bagno’s and the PCT analysis argue that such economists are dangerously wrong. The very survival of Democracy worldwide may depend on politicians ceasing to listen to them. We might, perhaps, relate the political rise of Donald Trump to the much approved budgetary surpluses produced by his two-decade-earlier predecessor as US President, Bill Clinton.

I have no illusions that I might persuade you of any of this. But none of us are obligated to persuade you. You are not the gatekeeper of PCT. I think that you will not ever read Martin’s book. How could I possibly object to that? However, I do object to misrepresenting what he said and did. Martin is safely beyond any felt need to respond. I hope that Kent will continue his careful exposition here. I hope that he and others will take up the challenges of modeling the ways in which humans have learned to live together humanely. The need is great.

I’m pretty sure Kent said or implied somewhere something like “the reference state of a virtual controlled variable explains social stabilities” but I can’t find the explicit statement. However, here’s a related one: “…when the actors involved in the joint control of an environmental variable use different reference points in attempting to control the variable, their actions will come into conflict, because the outcome of this “collective control process,” as it has been called (McClelland 2006), will stabilize the controlled variable at a “virtual reference level” (Powers 2005: 267) that ordinarily does not match the preference of any of the actors involved.” (McClelland, 2010, Draft).

The collective control process Kent is referring to is the one where a collection of agents are controlling the same environmental variable (I’m sure Kent meant the same aspect of the environment or “perception”) relative to different reference specifications. So the “environmental variable” could certainly be a social variable, such as the type of government the agents want to live under.

Yes, let’s do that. Let’s start with an observed phenomenon so I can see how the collective control model explains it. The explanation should clearly explain how the model maps to the phenomenon to be explained.

That clears things up a bit. So could you give me some examples of actual collective control? Real world examples, not just simulations. I see you did give a general definition of “collective control” earlier in your post: “Anything that came to be in your environment by being manufactured, sold, and purchased or given has been overtly subject to collective control…”. Maybe you could explain how what goes on in the manufacture, sale or purchase of a car maps to the “collective control” model.

No, I’ve been saying "I would like to see some of the phenomena (in the form of data) that are explained by the “collective control” model.

It seems like you have taken a “theory first” approach without ever completing the “phenomena second” part.

I think I only said he tried to add to the model. I don’t think he ever deducted from it; just misunderstood it in important ways.

How would Kent and Martin know that something like the horribly acronymed “atenfel” was a necessary addition to the model if they never tried to test the model against data. I agree that to begin verifying how a multi-agent phenomenon happens it is necessary first to recognize that it happens. But I’m pretty committed to the idea that the way to recognize that it happens is by observing it – collecting data on it – not by finding a way of talking about it.

As noted above, I never said that he made any deductions from the model.

Yes, I should have said “provisionally true”. Since you now have a model I think it’s time to test it.

I know that I am just the gatekeeper of myself.

Well, after almost 100 pages of introduction I got to Chapter one and ran into this: “I cannot say what “control” means to you. I can only explain what it means to me, which I will start to do here.” And what it means to him is that control is just a concept, not a fact (as per the subtitle of LCS III) and that concept is defined in terms of a control loop. I would have continued reading if Martin had started out by saying something like “Control is an observable phenomenon” and then went on to show how it can be observed. I’m not interested in reading a book that is theory based on theory (and the occasional anecdotal evidence).

I don’t believe I am misrepresenting what Martin said. I am just disagreeing with much of what he has said about PCT. As did Bill. If you (or anyone) thinks I am misrepresenting what Martin is saying feel free to correct me just as I corrected you in this post for misrepresenting what I said about Martin’s contributions to PCT (I didn’t say he deducted from PCT, just that he added to it unnecessarily).

I was thinking that you’re even misrepresenting what you have said. But no, you’re safe. It’s not something that you were espousing. You attributed it to Bill. And what Bill said is different from what you would say, right?

So what deductions did Bill say that Martin made from the premises of PCT?

Yes. A distinction without a difference. Until you see the data you do not believe that the phenomena exist. The many examples Kent and Martin have provided, and which I have provided, are for you just ‘theory first’ rather than references to familiar social phenomena requiring explanation. Until data are provided they are not real phenomena.

But they are phenomena, and this is not theory first, it is phenomena first. We are surrounded by controlled variables that are neither uniquely controlled by one individual at a time nor loci of conflict among the individuals controlling them, often very many individuals. Convention, standardization, institutionalization avoid conflict. We are surrounded by conventional phenomena, standardized values, institutions. For example, routine greetings during the course of a day.

There can be no data until we figure out how to obtain and represent, for example, many individuals having their control of diverse CVs disturbed when a given ‘public’ variable is disturbed from its accustomed state — to single out one class of collective control. Examples of that public variable? The train schedule. The price of cigarettes. A power outage. The value of Bitcoin.

But there can be no data until we figure out how to …

You ignored this as if I hadn’t said it. This is not a new experience. In fact, it’s getting old. So I’ll return the favor. Until what you say addresses the problems of accounting for collectively controlled variables within PCT, I will ignore whatever you say about it that doesn’t.

/Bruce

Yes. Bill was able to find a lot more things wrong with Martin’s ideas than I could.

I think what I said was based on this part of Bill’s post: “Having assumed the truth of your premise without particularly checking to see if it was true, you then built a series of plausible deductions from the assumption, which happened to support a general principle you were trying to get across. Unfortunately, the premise was false”. [emphasis mine]

I would say that until data are provided – data that show the relevant variables and how they related to each other – they are not modellable phenomena.

Agreed. But it would be nice to describe what those variables are and how individual agents contribute to their control.

Indeed, and all those conventions, standards and institutions are a result of cooperation between the agents, a control phenomenon that I discuss in CH 7 in SLCS. I believe our understanding of cooperation would benefit from a lot more attention from a PCT perspective. Cooperation is the missing component of Kent’s work on collective control. The virtual reference state of a variable exists because the agents are not cooperating; they are in conflict. I think PCT could contribute enormously to our understanding of how cooperation works and why it is often so difficult to do.

I think you are making things out to be more difficult than they are. If you know that a variable is being collectively controlled then you know how to measure it. And you have a pretty good idea of how the actions of agents affect that variable.

I ignored it because what you had said earlier in your post made what I would have said irrelevant. I would have said that Bill’s discussion of the CROWD demo (pp. 163 in LCS III) and my models of various phenomena resulting from the interaction between individual control systems (CH 7 in SCLS) are demonstrations of the ways PCT might grapple with the enormous complexity of collective control phenomena. But in an earlier part of your post you said that the social behavior demonstrated in the CROWD program and, by implication, most of the social behaviors modeled in SCLS, are not examples of collective control. So that answer probably wouldn’t have satisfied you.

But I think you gave a general description of “collective control” as “anything that came to be in your environment by being manufactured, sold, and purchased or given has been overtly subject to collective control…”. So could you please explain how the collective behavior involved in the manufacture, sale or purchase of a car maps to the “collective control” model? Maybe you could explain it by distinguishing how the collective behavior involved in the manufacture of a car differs from the collective behavior involved in the “manufacture” of the arcs and rings around the guru in the CROWD model.

There will be considerable delay before I can respond to your constructive suggestions about collective control. I will be in NYC for a conference the rest of the week, presentation Friday, returning Sunday, and the next day flying to Kansas for a funeral in Sarah’s family.

I did put considerable time into responding to other parts of your post. I cut that from here and put it in a text file for more careful consideration. I expect that I’ll break it up and post each part in an appropriate category and topic.

This smells (or, perhaps more appropriately, shimmers) like collective control to me. Is it?

Fascinating phenomenon! Quoting from the video: “The wasp’s maneuver, and the way the bee lands, triggers a shimmering wave …”

You can find out a lot by looking. So why not look farther.

“It was recently demonstrated that these social waves are triggered by special agents [individual bees] on the nest surface.1 These special agents are the first to flip their abdomens in response to a threatening cue.”

  • Kastberger G, Weihmann F, Hoetzl T. Complex social waves of giant honeybees provoked by a dummy wasp support the special-agent hypothesis. Commun Integr Biol. 2010 Mar;3(2):179-80. doi: 10.4161/cib.3.2.10809. PMID: 20585516; PMCID: PMC2889980. URL: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2889980/#R1

The footnote cites

  • Schmelzer E, Kastberger G. ‘Special agents’ trigger social waves in giant honeybees (Apis dorsata). Naturwissenschaften. 2009 Dec;96(12):1431-41. doi: 10.1007/s00114-009-0605-y. PMID: 19756461; PMCID: PMC2764078.

Is this collective control or is it a collective side effect of individuals’ control, and what is the difference?

Can the bees perceive the wave as such? If they can’t, they are like the agents in the CROWD demo; if they can, they are like the humans that the CROWD demo models.

If they can’t perceive the wave as such, the wave is a side effect of a more granularly-defined control phenomenon, in which a perception of neighbors “flipping their abdomens” is input to an evolutionarily established control system for a bee ‘flipping’ its own abdomen. The wave is a collective result of individual’s control, just as the rings and arcs in the CROWD demo are a collective result of individuals’ control.

The hornet is able to perceive the wave as such. “The findings suggest that shimmering creates a ‘shelter zone’ of around 50 cm that prevents predatory wasps from foraging bees directly from the nest surface. Thus shimmering appears to be a key defence strategy that supports the Giant honeybees’ open-nesting life-style.” [These bees cluster in the open, without a nest enclosure surrounding them.]

  • Kastberger G, Schmelzer E, Kranner I. Social waves in giant honeybees repel hornets. PLoS One. 2008 Sep 10;3(9):e3141. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0003141. PMID: 18781205; PMCID: PMC2528003.

If individual bees can perceive the wave as such, they might be able to control that perception for purposes ulterior to the survival purpose of chasing a hornet away, just as a salesperson, political agitator, policeperson, or pickpocket might control a perception of the rings and arcs around someone or something of interest. Ulterior control of the collective result by an individual can disturb the collective result, e.g. police command people to disperse and no longer form a crowd of any form, a contrary speaker sets up a soapbox in a strategic location, an enemy of the speaker plants a stink bomb in a strategic location.

There is an obvious parallel in the evolutionary transition from single-cell organisms to multicellular organisms. The multicellular organism can persist as an individual and generationally only insofar as control by individuals does not disturb the collective result of being an integral organism. The development of an immune system bridges individual and collective control. From the cellular point of view, the effectors of immune defense are individuals within the organism collectively controlling integrity of the multicellular organism; from the point of view of the multicellular organism the immune system is an organ. In these bees, an ‘organ’ to wave off wasps is temporarily created by the individuals when specialized individuals perceive the threat. In a slime mould, a stalk and spore body is temporarily created when drought conditions are somehow perceived by individuals. It may be similar: perhaps peripheral cells which are most exposed change in some way, those changes are perceptions controlled by their immediate neighbors, and so on.

Social animals (probably all) do things that look like the activity of an immune system. This is not the only instance. For example, if a termite returns to the nest with fungus on its body, guards posted at the nest entrance grab it, haul it far away from the nest, decapitate it, then commit suicide.

A multicellular organism is of a different order from the single-cell organisms that constitute it. This is in sharp focus when we consider nerve cells. A neuron’s rate of firing is controlled at the organism level; it is strictly an incidental side effect from the point of view of the cell, which is involved with the release and absorption of neuropeptides affecting the opening and closing of gates in the synapse resulting the accumulation of ions in dendrites and their release from an axon, et detailed cetera. Were the neuron to control its rate of firing for its own purposes the organism could never control its perceptions.

Yes, very interesting.

My question about whether this shimmering wave phenomenon was an example of collective control was a bit facetious. Asking it implies that there is only one kind of phenomenon involving collections of control systems that gets to be called “collective control”. And it’s a phenomenon that is explained by a particular model of collective behavior. This means that in order to identify a phenomenon as being an example of “collective control” we have to be able to know how the phenomenon is explained.

I would like to reclaim the term “collective control” and have it refer to phenomena that involve the controlling done by collectives of living control systems and not to any particular theories that explain these phenomena. So the shimmering behavior of bees would be an example of collective control, as would the flocking behavior of birds and the conversational behavior of people.

All these collective control phenomena may appear to require an explanation in terms of different theories but, in fact, they can all be explained by the same theory: PCT. This was demonstrated in Chapter 7 of The Study of Living Control Systems where the basic “laws” of PCT were used to explain Tom Bourbon’s two-person cooperative control demonstration, bird flocking behavior, various examples of human crowd behavior, group differences in pronunciation, conflict within groups, and interpersonal manipulative behavior.

Just as the same laws of physics can be used to explain the parabolic motion of a single fly ball and the Brownian motion of a million water molecules, the same laws of PCT can be used to explain the consistent production of a particular result by one organism or by a group of them. If control is involved – and that certainly seems to be the case with the shimmering waves produced by the honey bees – then PCT is the only model that can explain it. But as with the laws of physics, you have to figure out the right way to apply the laws of PCT properly to account for the particular control phenomenon you want to explain.

Confused. Collective control is not a separate theory from PCT. It’s just an illustration of how PCT manifests within interacting agents. Some of the emergent properties of these interactions aren’t obvious from just knowing PCT, but come out through simulations, observations of nature and thought experiments.

I’m confused too. Isn’t this like putting the cart before the horse (or, more precisely, the theory before the observation)? It seems to me that the way to go about studying the behavior of interacting agents is to see whether a particular observed manifestation of the such behavior – like the shimmering waves produced by the honey bees – can be accounted for by PCT, rather than vice versa.

It sounds like “collective control” refers to more than one “emergent property” that manifests within interacting agents. I’ve been laboring under the impression that “collective control” refers to only one particular such “emergent property”-- the “virtual controller” that emerges from a conflict between many agents over the desired reference state for a commonly controlled variable. Are there any other “emergent properties” that can be placed under the rubric of “collective control”?

Hi Warren

You always seem to disappear after I ask you a question that I would really like the answer to. I’ll try again. In the previous post you said:

and I said:

Maybe you didn’t notice but that last sentence is a question. If you could answer it for me I think it would help me understand where you and Bruce and Kent are coming from. Best, Rick

My reading of collective control is that this is the main emergent property that is of interest. I’m.not absolutely clear whether Martin’s work on protocols is included or is a separate strand of emergent properties.

I presume that by “this” you are referring to the virtual control that results from conflict between multiple agents controlling the same (or a very similar) variable relative to different references. Is that right? If so, it must be a very commonly observed emergent property. Yet I have been able to think of only a couple of examples of social interaction where such virtual control might be involved – arm wrestling and tug of war.

If this virtual control is the “main” emergent property that is referred to as “collective control” then it doesn’t seem to account for much. Why not just let “collective control” refer to all the different phenomena that emerge from the behavior of collectives of control systems – all of which can likely be explained by the proper application of PCT?

That’s how I understand it. The modelling of a virtual controller is at a higher level than the modelling of the individual control systems and their connected environment which simply follow PCT to the letter. In the same way as constructing a model of flyball catching doesn’t confirm or contradict any model of how neurones work.

I take this answer to mean that “collective control” refers only to virtual control. So the behavior of crowds, for example, as modeled in the CROWD program, is not an example of collective control, right?

I don’t understand your point about the modelling of a virtual controller being at a higher level than the modelling of individual control systems. Kent’s (and my) models of virtual control are done at the level of individual control systems, same as in the CROWD program. The collective phenomena seen in these models emerge from the fact that the individual control systems in the collective are in each other’s environment. There is nothing about the control model that makes up each individual in the collective that differs from what it would be if the individuals were alone. Where’s the higher level when modeling the virtual controlling done by a collection of individuals compared to the modeling of each individual behaving alone?

You also didn’t address my point that the virtual control model doesn’t seem to account for much more than the behavior seen in arm wrestling and tug of war. Wouldn’t you want something called the PCT model of collective control to account for more than that?

Going back to the bee example, do you not think that it would be possible to model the individual bees using PCT to see the spiral emerge but that the spiral would be maintained by a process that models using PCT the perception of the spiral from the perspective of the predator? In this dual perspective, each bee has its reference value but has no perception of the spiral; the predator has only a perception of the spiral which is held at a ‘virtual’ reference level by the collective action of the bees that opposes the reference value of the predator, hence its attempts to fly away from it.
In this example of modelling of two levels of explanation simultaneously, all models are PCT models, but their particular combination and interaction is what makes it an example of collective control. As I understand it, Kent and Martin are natural historians of control theory, documenting and describing fascinating and functional patterns of how and why PCT systems can interact to form the social complexities of what we see in animal and human societies. Their explanations use PCT to explain the microprocesses at work, whilst they describe what the see at a macro level. IMO saying that collective control contradicts PCT is like saying describing the workings of a cell contradicts gene-protein transcription, or describing the workings of the heart contradicts cellular functions.

Hi all,

Rick wrote:

“I presume you are referring to the virtual control that results from conflict between multiple agents controlling the same (or very similar) variable relative to different references.”

I think (at the moment) that the phenomenon of (Giant) Virtual Controller is essential to collective control. But it does not require that there is that kind of conflict between the singular (“dwarf”) controllers. Even if they have the same or similar references there is still the virtual controller which is multiply stronger than any singular controller.

If I remember right, in the Crowd demo the singular controllers control only the distances between them and with some other object (a guru), but as a consequence they cause a form of arc. Here the form of arc as a complex variable is controlled by a virtual controller. You can test this by TCV. Also, here the virtual controller is multiply stronger than singular controllers. The more there are singular controllers the more difficult it is to disturb the form of arc. (Whatever you do to one or more dwarfs the others will always restore the arc.) What is interesting is that in a way all dwarf controllers have separate controlled variables (their own distance from the guru), so they cannot be in conflict. The arc is a side effect of their controlling but unlike side effects usually that side effect is a controlled variable (controlled by the GVC).

What you think, does this make sense?

Yes, it would be a model like the CROWD model where the moving spirals would be a side effect of the controlling done by the individual agents – the bees. The predator would be involved as a disturbance to the perceptions controlled by the bees – possibly only the “alerter” bees – but would not be involved in maintaining the spirals.

There is no conflict between the bees and the predator over the spirals because neither party – bees or predator – is controlling the spirals. The spirals are a side-effect of the controlling done by the bees and a disturbance to the predator’s control of its relationship to its prey. There is no virtual controller involved in this situation because there is no conflict and the spirals are not a virtually controlled variable.

The only problem with this conclusion is that 1) your model does not involve two levels of explanation and 2) there is no conflict so there is no virtual control involved. Therefore, by your definition of collective control, the spirals produced by the bees are not an example of collective control. But by my definition of collective control they certainly would be.

What was missing from their documenting was any attempt to fit their model to data. This involves more than explaining observations of multi- agent phenomena with stories using PCT terminology. Without showing how the model fits the data one can have little confidence that it really explains the phenomenon under study.

I don’t know who this is addressed to because I never said (or implied) that collective control contradicts PCT. My problem with collective control is that the phrase has come to be associated with one particular way in which multiple agents can interact – a way that results in what Bill called virtual control. Bill called it virtual control because it looks like control but isn’t (as I demonstrated in my talk at the 2023 IAPCT on-line conference).

To me, the term “collective control” refers to any situation were two or more independent agents (living control systems) interact. This includes interactions that result in virtual control (such as a tug of war) but it also includes the cooperative 2 person interactions modeled by Tom Bourbon, the group interactions modeled by the CROWD program, imitative interactions, etc. These multi-agent interactions are all discussed in CH. 7 of The Study of Living Control Systems – a chapter that I would have titled “Collective Control” had the term not been co-opted.

Hi Eetu

Yes, I think it is essential too since there seem to be some real world examples of this kind of control (a tug of war being one, of course). But I think other examples of collective behavior by multiple control systems are far more common – examples in which no virtual control is involved – and should also be included under the rubric of “collective control” phenomena.

If all the “dwarf” controllers (agents) have the same or very similar references then the controlling done by the collective is no longer virtual control; it is real control. The fact that it is real control can be determined objectively by showing that there is no dead zone where disturbances have no effect on the commonly controlled variable.

No, the arc is not controlled; it is a unintended side effect of the controlling done by the individual agents.

Yes, indeed. And the TCV would reveal that the arc is not the reference state of a controlled variable.

This would be true if the arc were indeed the reference state of a controlled variable and all agents had the same reference for that variable. But in that case the arc would not be the result of virtual control (which only occurs when there is conflict); it would be a result of actual control.

But the arc in the guru scenario is definitely not the virtual or real reference state of a controlled variable. We don’t need the TCV to know that that is the case because we know how the CROWD program works, and there is nothing in the program that is controlling for an arc being formed in the guru scenario. That (to me) is what is most interesting about that scenario: it shows how you can get an apparently collectively controlled result as a side effect of the individual controlling done by members of the collective. The arc appears to be a controlled result because it looks like something people would produce intentionally.

This is actually a good way to test to see whether the arc is, indeed, virtually controlled. You seem to be a skilled programmer; why don’t you revise the CROWD program to make it possible to push (with your mouse) agents away from the arc once it’s formed. I predict that you will not find what you imagine you will find. I predict that pushing agents away from the arc will deform it and the other agents will not move so as to restore it.

I think you should try testing this as I suggested above. I think you might be surprised by the result.

In that case. I’m in general agreement with you, whilst at the same time feeling drawn to point out that PCT is a functionalist framework, which to me suggests that it cannot be constrained to one ‘level’ in any explanatory framework, just as we see the algorithm of natural selection in many different systems.