Wolfram, Locke

[From Rick Marken (2002.09.16.1040)]

I was finally able to check out a copy of Wolfram's "New Kind of Science"
book. I have not (and probably will not) read it, first because it is _way_
too thick (it would crush me if a dropped it while falling asleep) and second
because it seems to have nothing important to say on the topic of purposeful
behavior (I checked for "purpose" in the index and found the relevant sections
to be useless). If anyone out there can point me to a two page executive
summary of this book I would like to read that. Otherwise I'm afraid I'm not
going to learn much about Wolfram's "New Kind of Science", at least not in
this lifetime.

I also noticed that John A. Locke, who along with Albert Bandura wrote several
articles attacking PCT, has a new paper in _American Psychologist_. I wonder
if anyone has read it and can give a summary. I'll try to get a copy of the
article as soon as possible.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Jeff Vancouver (2002.09.16.1405)]

I have seen the Locke article (it is with Latham, not Bandura). They devote
two paragraphs to trashing control theory. Nothing new. I have not decided
whether to respond or not (the arguments have been responded to by others in
the past). Of course others are free to consider their own response.

Regarding Wolfram, I have read the 2 page executive summary (some student
gave me an article on it). The issue is whether the negative feedback loop
(or perhaps more likely, the comparator function) is one of his "rules." The
general flavor of his message - complex behavior can arise from simple
underlying structures repeating themselves - seems consistent with PCT, if
not specific about one particular structure. Note, this paragraph was
written after having read an article and the front page of Wolfram's
website.

Jeff

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 1:42 PM
To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu
Subject: Wolfram, Locke

[From Rick Marken (2002.09.16.1040)]

I was finally able to check out a copy of Wolfram's "New Kind
of Science"
book. I have not (and probably will not) read it, first
because it is _way_
too thick (it would crush me if a dropped it while falling
asleep) and second
because it seems to have nothing important to say on the
topic of purposeful
behavior (I checked for "purpose" in the index and found the
relevant sections
to be useless). If anyone out there can point me to a two
page executive
summary of this book I would like to read that. Otherwise I'm
afraid I'm not
going to learn much about Wolfram's "New Kind of Science", at
least not in
this lifetime.

I also noticed that John A. Locke, who along with Albert
Bandura wrote several
articles attacking PCT, has a new paper in _American
Psychologist_. I wonder
if anyone has read it and can give a summary. I'll try to get
a copy of the
article as soon as possible.

Best regards

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From Rick Marken (2002.09.16.1540)]

Thanks for the info Jeff.

Jeff Vancouver (2002.09.16.1405)

I have seen the Locke article (it is with Latham, not Bandura).

Yes. I know. I was alluding to the fact that Locke had written previous attacks
on PCT with Bandura. The fact that Bandura would engage in such misinformed
attacks is notable because he is probably the most eminent living psychologist.
Indeed, in the _Review of General Psychology_ that published my "Control Theory
Glasses" paper has a paper on the 100 most eminent psychologists in the June
issues that precedes the one with my paper. Bandura is ranked _way up there_,
like number three of something. So we are getting attacked by the the creme de
la creme of psychology. People should be taking notice. Which is great because
our replies become more visible. I think the attacks from Bandura (and his
cronies, like Locke) are the best thing that has ever happened to PCT. It would
be foolish not to take advantage of this opportunity.

They devote
two paragraphs to trashing control theory. Nothing new. I have not decided
whether to respond or not (the arguments have been responded to by others in
the past). Of course others are free to consider their own response.

I will respond, no question. I think you and Bill should respond as well. Any
word yet on the fate of the your and Bill's replies to the Bandura _Applied
Psychology_ article? I haven't seen Bandura's paper yet. Bandura's article is
supposed to appear in the _Journal of Applied Psychology_ right?

Regarding Wolfram, I have read the 2 page executive summary (some student
gave me an article on it). The issue is whether the negative feedback loop
(or perhaps more likely, the comparator function) is one of his "rules." The
general flavor of his message - complex behavior can arise from simple
underlying structures repeating themselves - seems consistent with PCT, if
not specific about one particular structure. Note, this paragraph was
written after having read an article and the front page of Wolfram's
website

That doesn't sound like PCT to me. I think PCT would say that most of what we
see as complex behavior (the complexity of the observable actions) comes mainly
from the complexity of environmental disturbances to the relatively simple
perceptual variables people control. But isn't Wolfram a physicist? Isn't the
book about the behavior of physical cause-effect systems? Why do people think
it would be of any particular interest to control theorists?

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[from Jeff Vancouver (2002.09.17.1140)]

from Rick Marken (2002.09.16.1540)]

I think the attacks from
Bandura (and his
cronies, like Locke) are the best thing that has ever
happened to PCT. It would
be foolish not to take advantage of this opportunity.

Good point. Thanks for the prodding.

Any
word yet on the fate of the your and Bill's replies to the
Bandura _Applied
Psychology_ article? I haven't seen Bandura's paper yet.
Bandura's article is
supposed to appear in the _Journal of Applied Psychology_ right?

Yes, _JAP_. They have about a year lag between acceptance and print. That
means it should be out about April 2003. I do not know about Bill's
response. Mine is still in the review process. I hope to hear soon and I
hope (but do not expect) that they print them together. Did I not send you
the Bandura and Locke paper?

> Regarding Wolfram,
That doesn't sound like PCT to me. I think PCT would say that
most of what we
see as complex behavior (the complexity of the observable
actions) comes mainly
from the complexity of environmental disturbances to the
relatively simple
perceptual variables people control. But isn't Wolfram a
physicist? Isn't the
book about the behavior of physical cause-effect systems? Why
do people think
it would be of any particular interest to control theorists?

Wolfram's a mathematician. Author of _Mathematica_. But physcial systems are
replete with negative feedback loops. But I can't really say 'cause I have
not read it directly.

Jeff

[From Rick Marken (2002.09.17.1630)]

Mike Acree (2002.09.17.1506 PDT)--

I haven't seen the article yet, but I would guess that the Locke in question is Edwin A. rather than John A.

Yes. It's Edwin.

Wolfram's book clearly disturbs something many people are controlling for with very high gain, however, and it has been an interesting puzzle to me to try to figure out what (with little opportunity for a Test, of course).

The only things that disturbed my about the book were it's size (way too big) and the useless things it had to say about purpose.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken, Ph.D.
The RAND Corporation
PO Box 2138
1700 Main Street
Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138
Tel: 310-393-0411 x7971
Fax: 310-451-7018
E-mail: rmarken@rand.org

[From Mike Acree (2002.09.17.1506 PDT)]

Rick Marken (2002.09.16.1040)--

I also noticed that John A. Locke, who along with Albert Bandura wrote several
articles attacking PCT, has a new paper in _American Psychologist_.

I haven't seen the article yet, but I would guess that the Locke in question is Edwin A. rather than John A.

That doesn't sound like PCT to me. I think PCT would say that most of what we
see as complex behavior (the complexity of the observable actions) comes mainly
from the complexity of environmental disturbances to the relatively simple
perceptual variables people control. But isn't Wolfram a physicist? Isn't the
book about the behavior of physical cause-effect systems? Why do people think
it would be of any particular interest to control theorists?

I agree with Jeff in seeing Wolfram as consistent with PCT (I don't think PCT violates the principles of physics), but I also don't see his book as having any special relevance to PCT. I thought it was one of the most fascinating books I've ever read--could hardly put it down once I managed to lift it into my lap. The basic ideas in theoretical physics I found very intriguing, even though I'm not in a position to judge their merit on other grounds. And the book is chock full of interesting tidbits known only to specialists in a dozen different fields (e.g., exp(pi*sqrt(163)) is an integer to one part in 10**-30).

Wolfram's book clearly disturbs something many people are controlling for with very high gain, however, and it has been an interesting puzzle to me to try to figure out what (with little opportunity for a Test, of course). The anomaly is that a science book is drawing reviews whose tone would make you think you were reading reviews of _Atlas Shrugged_. (I'm referring to the hundreds of reviews on Amazon.) Almost all attacks are ad hominem rather than criticisms of the ideas, and many reviewers admit they haven't read the book. Usually that means the book is profoundly threatening to received ideas, as was the case with _Worlds in Collision_. Wolfram does present some radical ideas (about the nature of mathematics, or the discreteness of the universe, for example), but I can't tell that these are what is setting people off. The principal complaints are three: (a) The book is self-published and wasn't peer reviewed. But Wolfram was publishing in major physics journals !
in his teens, and got a MacArthur grant when he was 21; it's not as though he doesn't know how to do that stuff. CSGers, incidentally, can easily imagine what would have happened if Aldine had sent the manuscript of B:CP off to Bandura or Skinner or almost anyone else. (b) Wolfram isn't saying anything that wasn't said 40 years ago by Edward Fredkin, and he doesn't give anyone else credit. But Wolfram's 400 fine-print pages of notes give a detailed history of practically every idea in the book. In the few areas where I have some ability to judge, his review seems to me reasonably thorough--and very impressive, given the range of topics he covers. He discusses Fredkin's ideas, in particular, and how he has extended them. (c) Worst of all, Wolfram is arrogant enough to think that he has accomplished something important, and to say so. So did the author of B:CP: "The major premise of civilization, I submit, has been proven wrong" (p. 270). I happen to think they're bot!
h right, and agree with Wolfram that sometimes it's important to call attention to the radical implications of what you're saying; otherwise it's too easy for readers to assimilate your views to something more familiar. (It looks to me as though many readers still missed the radical implications of that bit about the major premise of civilization, but I don't need to revive that debate.)

The theme of the attacks looks to me like a kind of intellectual socialism: Science is a collective activity, we're all in this together, and we're all equally deserving of intellectual accomplishment and recognition; and here's this one guy who thinks he's good enough to go it alone, without our help or supervision. Science, like business, _is_ of course a collaborative activity, but the resentment of Wolfram seemed to me to have something in common with the resentment of Bill Gates: It's just not fair for one person to be that smart or that rich, and not to be apologetic for it. The controlled variable looks to me, in short, like Rawls' concept of distributive justice (though those who are envious may not have heard of Rawls, of course).

Mike

[From Bill Powers (2002.09.18.0901 MDT)]

Mike Acree (2002.09.17.1506 PDT) --

I agree with Jeff in seeing Wolfram as consistent with PCT (I don't think
PCT violates the principles of physics), but I also don't see his book as
having any special relevance to PCT.

I think there is one point of relevance. Wolfram comes right out and says
that everything in the universe is the result of a digital computation
directed by rule exactly as in a digital computer.. In PCT, that level of
organization is but one of eleven. Furthermore, Wolfram thinks that because
he can perceive and state rules and program a computer to run by them, the
rules exist outside his head as properties of the real world. The idea that
such things are perceptions first, and only problematically and
incidentally properties of Reality, is not part of his system. He has
focused on one very narrow aspect of human experience, not only excluding
everything else, but projecting it into the real world without any
justification.

The "new science" of which he speaks, as near as I can understand it, is
simply the study of simulations rather than experimenting with the world of
observations (except to test the observations). His entire book consists
of a series of simulations of a simple digital process based on the Game of
Life, followed by anecdotal descriptions of observations that seem,
roughly, to agree with what the simulation does (if viewed from afar with a
squint). Wolfram is hypersensitive to apparent similarities between the
behavior of his simulations and other observations, but apparently numb to
the differences. If you look only for similarities and supporting
instances, you can make any idea seem right. It's simple: just ignore all
the counterexamples as if they didn't exist. Of even better, don't try to
think of any.

Best,

Bill P.

···

  I thought it was one of the most fascinating books I've ever
read--could hardly put it down once I managed to lift it into my
lap. The basic ideas in theoretical physics I found very intriguing,
even though I'm not in a position to judge their merit on other
grounds. And the book is chock full of interesting tidbits known only to
specialists in a dozen different fields (e.g., exp(pi*sqrt(163)) is an
integer to one part in 10**-30).

Wolfram's book clearly disturbs something many people are controlling for
with very high gain, however, and it has been an interesting puzzle to me
to try to figure out what (with little opportunity for a Test, of
course). The anomaly is that a science book is drawing reviews whose tone
would make you think you were reading reviews of _Atlas Shrugged_. (I'm
referring to the hundreds of reviews on Amazon.) Almost all attacks are
ad hominem rather than criticisms of the ideas, and many reviewers admit
they haven't read the book. Usually that means the book is profoundly
threatening to received ideas, as was the case with _Worlds in
Collision_. Wolfram does present some radical ideas (about the nature of
mathematics, or the discreteness of the universe, for example), but I
can't tell that these are what is setting people off. The principal
complaints are three: (a) The book is self-published and wasn't peer
reviewed. But Wolfram was publishing in major physics journals !
in his teens, and got a MacArthur grant when he was 21; it's not as though
he doesn't know how to do that stuff. CSGers, incidentally, can easily
imagine what would have happened if Aldine had sent the manuscript of B:CP
off to Bandura or Skinner or almost anyone else. (b) Wolfram isn't saying
anything that wasn't said 40 years ago by Edward Fredkin, and he doesn't
give anyone else credit. But Wolfram's 400 fine-print pages of notes give
a detailed history of practically every idea in the book. In the few
areas where I have some ability to judge, his review seems to me
reasonably thorough--and very impressive, given the range of topics he
covers. He discusses Fredkin's ideas, in particular, and how he has
extended them. (c) Worst of all, Wolfram is arrogant enough to think that
he has accomplished something important, and to say so. So did the author
of B:CP: "The major premise of civilization, I submit, has been proven
wrong" (p. 270). I happen to think they're bot!
h right, and agree with Wolfram that sometimes it's important to call
attention to the radical implications of what you're saying; otherwise
it's too easy for readers to assimilate your views to something more
familiar. (It looks to me as though many readers still missed the radical
implications of that bit about the major premise of civilization, but I
don't need to revive that debate.)

The theme of the attacks looks to me like a kind of intellectual
socialism: Science is a collective activity, we're all in this together,
and we're all equally deserving of intellectual accomplishment and
recognition; and here's this one guy who thinks he's good enough to go it
alone, without our help or supervision. Science, like business, _is_ of
course a collaborative activity, but the resentment of Wolfram seemed to
me to have something in common with the resentment of Bill Gates: It's
just not fair for one person to be that smart or that rich, and not to be
apologetic for it. The controlled variable looks to me, in short, like
Rawls' concept of distributive justice (though those who are envious may
not have heard of Rawls, of course).

Mike

[From Mike Acree (2002.09.18.0931 PDT)]

Bill Powers (2002.09.18.0901 MDT)--

Wolfram comes right out and says
that everything in the universe is the result of a digital computation
directed by rule exactly as in a digital computer.. In PCT, that level of
organization is but one of eleven.

Wolfram's cellular automata are following a rule set by him in his program Mathematica. When hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water, they could also be said, I suppose, to be following a rule about what H and O are supposed to do when they come together. But I wouldn't have said they were operating at the seventh level in PCT. I don't see any evidence that Wolfram is thinking of these two kinds of "rules" as the same, and I'm not sure why you do.

Wolfram thinks that because
he can perceive and state rules and program a computer to run by them, the
rules exist outside his head as properties of the real world. The idea that
such things are perceptions first, and only problematically and
incidentally properties of Reality, is not part of his system. He has
focused on one very narrow aspect of human experience, not only excluding
everything else, but projecting it into the real world without any
justification.

I read Wolfram as more sophisticated, in his chapter on psychology, than the simple-minded objectivist you make him out to be; but your criticism (and Rick's) is at least directed to the content of Wolfram's theory, unlike the typical reviews I was pondering.

Thanks.
Mike

[From Bill Powers (2002.09.18.1230 MDT)]

Mike Acree (2002.09.18.0931 PDT)--

>Wolfram's cellular automata are following a rule set by him in his
program >Mathematica. When hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water, they
could also >be said, I suppose, to be following a rule about what H and O
are supposed to do >when they come together. But I wouldn't have said they
were operating at the >seventh level in PCT. I don't see any evidence that
Wolfram is thinking of these two >kinds of "rules" as the same, and I'm not
sure why you do.

Because that is how he talks about them consistently throughout the book

Page 8, para 3: "Existing methods in theoretical physics tend to revolve
around ideas of continuous numbers and calculus -- or sometimes
probability. Yet most of the systems in this book involve just simple
discrete elements with definite rules. And in many ways it is the greater
simplicity of this underlying structure that ultimately makes it possible
to identify so many fundamentally new phenomena. "

Simple discrete elements with definite rules. That is the digital-logic
approach as opposed to the analog approach involving continuous
variables. It is precisely the sort of operation I attribute to level 9
(if I said 7, I misspoke).

Page 22, paragraph 4: " Any program can be thought of at some level as
consisting of a set of rules that specify what it should do at each step.
There are many possible ways to set up these rules -- and indeed we will
study quite a few of them in the course of this book. But for now, I will
consider a particular class of examples called cellular automata, that were
the very first kinds of simple programs that I investigated in the early
1980s."

"What it should do at each step," of course, implies a series of discrete
operations carried out one after another, which is what generates the
patterns attributed to cellular automata. When he speaks of "programs" he
means exactly what I mean: tests for conditions leading to a choice of one
action versus another. That is how I have defined level 9 to work.

Unfortunately, in devising his new science which among other things is
supposed to apply to biological systems (see pages 7-16), Wolfram has
noticed practically nothing about his own properties as a human being,
properties that must exist before one can even consider the kind of model
he describes. Consider page 24, paragraph 2.

"The cellular automaton consists of a line of cells, each colored either
black or white. At every step there is then a definite rule that determines
the color of a given cell from the color of that cell and its immediate
neighbors on the step before."

Ah, a line of cells. How does a person perceive that elements form a
"line?" Obviously the person must be able to recognize that kind of
configuration (level 3), distinguishing it from curves and closed figures.
Then there is the matter of "black" and "white." This requires the ability
to sense at least light intensities (level 1), and perhaps, if shades of
gray or colors are involved as they are later in the book, sensations
(level 2). And what is the "neighbor" of a cell? Is that not a concept of
spatial relationship (level 5)?

Then we get to the first rule: " A cell should be black in all cases where
either of its neighbors was black on the step before." This is clearly a
rule based on tests and choices (level 9). Is the cell on the left
black, or is the cell on the right black? If so, then make the cell in
question black. That is an elementary program in exactly the sense of level
9. And is not the operation of making a cell that was white into a black
cell an event (level 5)?

There is another problem here: the rules are not stated clearly. Suppose I
have five cells to start with and indicate white by 0 and black by X. We
start with step 1 of the figures shown on page 24 at the top left (if
Wolframs is so well-acquainted with how papers are written for the
peer-reviewed literature, how come he doesn't label his figures so you can
refer to them as, for example, "Fig. 1"?).

00X00 (Start)

Now we have to examine the cells and apply the rule to each one. Cell 1 has
no black neighbor so it remains white. Cell 2 has a black neighbor so it
turns black, and we have, so far,

0XX00

Cell3 has a black neighbor oin its left now so it remains black. Cell 4
turns black because cell 3 is black, and we have

0XXX0

Now we have a problem: cell 5 now has a black neighbor on its left, so it
should turn black, too:

0XXXX

But that's not what happens in the next figure down in the book. Instead,
we end up with

0XXX0

How can that be? The answer is that we are not making "a cell" either black
or white. Instead, we are creating a NEW ROW OF WHITE CELLS and looking at
the row above it, which remains unchanged, to see whether each new cell
should turn black or be left white. We are, in fact, creating a _sequence_
(level 8) of rows, and applying the rule to each new row in turn. This is
not just a series of steps being applied to the same set of cells over and
over. It is a series of rule-driven operations which use the state of one
row as a means of determining the state of the next row in sequence.

Wolfram does not discuss the significance of the second dimension in his
diagrams, as far as I have seen. He speaks of the row above as being the
"previous step," but in fact that row has to be left in place, unchanged,
in order to construct the next row in sequence below it. The factor he is
overlooking here is memory: if we hold the state of the row of cells in
memory, we can now make a new row by applying the rule to each cell in
relationship to the _previous_ states of all the cells. Of course we can
also "remember" the previous row by drawing it.

So finally we can see all that is involved for a person to apply the
cellular automaton rules and generate the patterns we see in Wolfram's
book. If a person can already perceive sequences of relationships among
events involving transitions of configurations of sensations made of
intensities, and remember the appropriate experiences or write them down,
then the rules can be applied. Remove any one of those perceptual
abilities, and the cellular automaton cannot work. Wolfram sees his
approach as explaining everything: how does it explain all the levels of
variables and processes that underly the application of the rules?

I said that Wolfram's concept of discrete operations on discrete variables
is adhered to consistenly throughout the book. I just let the book fall
open in the middle, and found this on page 528:

"A defining feature of any particle is that it can somehow move in space
while maintaining its identity. In traditional physics, such motion has a
straightforward mathematical representation, and it has not usually seemed
meaningful to ask what might underlie it. But in the approach that I take
here, motion is no longer such an intrinsic concept, and the motion of a
particle must be thought of as a process that made up of a whole sequence
of explicit lower-level steps."

In other words, EVERYTHING consists of discrete states occurring in steps,
one after another (which Wolfram calls a sequence, correctly in terms of my
definitions). He speaks of "updating-events" which cause successive states
of something to change from one step to the next. "When particles move
faster they have more nodes associated with them", he says, where a node
results from slicing time. At each node, the discrete state of the particle
is "updated." By what? He never says.

I have seen this kind of theorizing before. It happens when for some reason
a person gets hung up on a single simple idea and starts trying to make it
account for everything. The problem is, it's ALWAYS possible to account for
everything if the only rule for accepting an explanation is that it seems
reasonable to you. If you never doubt the reasonableness of any of your own
ideas, theorizing is just a matter of imagining a plausible explanation.
Somehow, you never seem to come up with anything but good ideas.

I see Wolfram's book as a sad example of what can happen even to a
brilliant mind.

Best,

Bill P.

···

>Wolfram thinks that because
>he can perceive and state rules and program a computer to run by them, the
>rules exist outside his head as properties of the real world. The idea that
>such things are perceptions first, and only problematically and
>incidentally properties of Reality, is not part of his system. He has
>focused on one very narrow aspect of human experience, not only excluding
>everything else, but projecting it into the real world without any
>justification.

I read Wolfram as more sophisticated, in his chapter on psychology, than
the simple-minded objectivist you make him out to be; but your criticism
(and Rick's) is at least directed to the content of Wolfram's theory,
unlike the typical reviews I was pondering.

Thanks.
Mike

[From Mike Acree (2002.09.18.1442 PDT)]

Bill Powers (2002.09.18.1230 MDT)--

Thanks for your detailed reply. Here's how I'm understanding the discussion so far:

Wolfram says, "1 + 1 = 2. Here's an example of how it works: If I pour a container with 1 cup of orange juice into another container with 1 cup of orange juice, I have a container with 2 cups of orange juice." You say: "That's ridiculous. Addition is a Level 9 concept, and orange juice doesn't know anything about addition."

I agree with you about orange juice, but I can't imagine that Wolfram doesn't also. The passages you cite seem clearly to me to be talking about arithmetic. It would sound odd to me to say that we ended up with 2 cups of orange juice because orange juice was following our rules; our task is to formulate rules that fit our observations. All this makes me think I'm misunderstanding you.

(if
Wolframs is so well-acquainted with how papers are written for the
peer-reviewed literature, how come he doesn't label his figures so you can
refer to them as, for example, "Fig. 1"?).

In the standard literature, figures are numbered because the author and typesetter are not the same person, and the author doesn't know where a given figure will end up. Wolfram, as I recall (I don't have the book with me here at the office), said he thought it would be a greater convenience to the reader, since he designed the layout himself, to be able to refer to figures by location (above, on the facing page, etc.). I don't think this is much of a demonstration that Wolfram doesn't know how to write for peer-reviewed journals, so I assume it was a miscellaneous gripe.

Mike

[From Bill Powers (2002.09.18.1942 MDT)]

Mike Acree (2002.09.18.1442 PDT)]\

Bill Powers (2002.09.18.1230 MDT)--

Thanks for your detailed reply. Here's how I'm understanding the
discussion so far:

Wolfram says, "1 + 1 = 2. Here's an example of how it works: If I pour a
container with 1 cup of orange juice into another container with 1 cup of
orange juice, I have a container with 2 cups of orange juice." You
say: "That's ridiculous. Addition is a Level 9 concept, and orange juice
doesn't know anything about addition."

No, that's not what I say. I say I'm not convinced that there can never be
2.1 cups of orange juice, or that when I pour orange juice from one glass
into another, the quantity never changes in the glasses except at "update
nodes" in time with nothing happening between them. That's what the quote
from page 500-something was about. Wolfram does not believe in continuity.

I agree with you about orange juice, but I can't imagine that Wolfram
doesn't also.

If you think that Wolfram thinks that orange juice comes only in integer
quantities, I think you are right. But you're putting words in my mouth if
you think I believe the same thing.

The passages you cite seem clearly to me to be talking about
arithmetic. It would sound odd to me to say that we ended up with 2 cups
of orange juice because orange juice was following our rules; our task is
to formulate rules that fit our observations. All this makes me think I'm
misunderstanding you.

Wolfram seems to prefer "rules" that operate only in discrete jumps. Look,
if Wolfram is not actually saying that the universe is like a digital
computer, then he's just saying that we can represent it by models and
simulations of whatever type is appropriate to the problem, and that is
nothing new at all. He just happened to use discrete variables that can
change only in jumps at "update nodes" in time, and he just happened to
claim that all his examples fit that kind of model, and he just happened
not to give examples of any other kind? I don't believe it.

I think he really believes that the world works by the kinds of discrete
processes we see in cellular automata. He's perfectly free to believe that
and argue in favor of that view, but I think he's dead wrong. The last time
I read that a book that full of pronouncements about revolutionary concepts
and surpassing current science, it was written by L. Ron Hubbard. Of course
I fell for that one, but I was only 24 at the time.

>(if
>Wolframs is so well-acquainted with how papers are written for the
>peer-reviewed literature, how come he doesn't label his figures so you can
>refer to them as, for example, "Fig. 1"?).

In the standard literature, figures are numbered because the author and
typesetter are not the same person, and the author doesn't know where a
given figure will end up.

I've never heard that reason for numbering figures before. It's certainly
not why I number figures in my own papers or books.I number them so I can
say "Look at Fig. 4 on page 182."

Wolfram, as I recall (I don't have the book with me here at the office),
said he thought it would be a greater convenience to the reader, since he
designed the layout himself, to be able to refer to figures by location
(above, on the facing page, etc.). I don't think this is much of a
demonstration that Wolfram doesn't know how to write for peer-reviewed
journals, so I assume it was a miscellaneous gripe.

What a crock. Look at the problem I had in trying to direct your attention
to one particular figure among about eight that were on the same page. I
had to say something like "the top drawing of a group in the upper left
part of that page." Wouldn't "Fig. 1a" have been simpler and more precise?
Wolfram was rationalizing like mad if he said what you remember, and you're
helping him do it. Or did he just expect readers to look at the pretty
pictures and never refer to them in a paper or a talk?

Mike, I'm sorry, but every time I go back into that book, I see it as more
nutty than the last time.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Mike Acree (2002.09.19.1100 PDT)]

Bill Powers (2002.09.18.1942 MDT)--

Wolfram does not believe in continuity.

Wolfram seems to prefer "rules" that operate only in discrete jumps. Look,
if Wolfram is not actually saying that the universe is like a digital
computer, then he's just saying that we can represent it by models and
simulations of whatever type is appropriate to the problem, and that is
nothing new at all. He just happened to use discrete variables that can
change only in jumps at "update nodes" in time, and he just happened to
claim that all his examples fit that kind of model, and he just happened
not to give examples of any other kind? I don't believe it.

I think he really believes that the world works by the kinds of discrete
processes we see in cellular automata. He's perfectly free to believe that
and argue in favor of that view, but I think he's dead wrong. The last time
I read that a book that full of pronouncements about revolutionary concepts
and surpassing current science, it was written by L. Ron Hubbard. Of course
I fell for that one, but I was only 24 at the time.

Wolfram does indeed believe that the universe is discrete rather than continuous; he puts this forward explicitly as an unproven hypothesis, since nobody knows how to settle it one way or another at present. But at the nanonano level he's talking about, there are no implications for the continuity of everyday experience. In particular, there is no reason here why the nervous system couldn't function as an analog computer. Molecules are discrete, too, but that doesn't disprove PCT.

It's funny; I just recalled a night when I was in college, 36 years ago, and fell asleep on the living room floor in somebody's apartment as everybody else stayed up all night debating whether the universe were particulate or continuous. I may find the issue a little more interesting now than I did then, but I might still fall asleep before everyone else. The intensity of your messages tells me I'm once again disturbing something I didn't intend to disturb, and I'm quite content to go back to sleep.

Thanks.
Mike

>(if
>Wolframs is so well-acquainted with how papers are written for the
>peer-reviewed literature, how come he doesn't label his figures so you can
>refer to them as, for example, "Fig. 1"?).

In the standard literature, figures are numbered because the author and
typesetter are not the same person, and the author doesn't know where a
given figure will end up.

I've never heard that reason for numbering figures before. It's certainly
not why I number figures in my own papers or books.I number them so I can
say "Look at Fig. 4 on page 182."

Wolfram, as I recall (I don't have the book with me here at the office),
said he thought it would be a greater convenience to the reader, since he
designed the layout himself, to be able to refer to figures by location
(above, on the facing page, etc.). I don't think this is much of a
demonstration that Wolfram doesn't know how to write for peer-reviewed
journals, so I assume it was a miscellaneous gripe.

What a crock. Look at the problem I had in trying to direct your attention
to one particular figure among about eight that were on the same page. I
had to say something like "the top drawing of a group in the upper left
part of that page." Wouldn't "Fig. 1a" have been simpler and more precise?
Wolfram was rationalizing like mad if he said what you remember, and you're
helping him do it. Or did he just expect readers to look at the pretty
pictures and never refer to them in a paper or a talk?

Mike, I'm sorry, but every time I go back into that book, I see it as more
nutty than the last time.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (2002.09.20 15:37 PDT)]

Bill Powers (2002.09.18.1942 MDT)–

Mike Acree (2002.09.18.1442 PDT)]\

I think [Wolfram] really believes that the world works by the kinds of
discrete processes we see in cellular automata.

As I recall he says as much in his introduction to the book. But that’s
about all I read in the copy that was available at the CSG
Conference.

The last time I read […] a book that full of
pronouncements about revolutionary concepts and surpassing current
science, it was written by L. Ron Hubbard. Of course I fell for that one,
but I was only 24 at the time.

Well, I suppose B:CP, LCS, and MSOB aren’t full of such
pronouncements, not to mention Mind Readings.

how come he
doesn’t label his figures so you can

refer to them as, for example, “Fig. 1”?).

In the standard literature, figures are numbered because the author
and

typesetter are not the same person, and the author doesn’t know where
a

given figure will end up.

I’ve never heard that reason for numbering figures before. It’s
certainly

not why I number figures in my own papers or books.I number them so I
can

say “Look at Fig. 4 on page 182.”

I can’t speak for physics, which seems to be an inconstant thing these
days, but as a matter of publishing standards and culture history Bill’s
got it right. Look in Chicago Manual of Style, for example. Note
too that if figure and table numbers were only a communication from the
author to the typesetter then they would routinely be omitted by the
typesetter along with numerous proofreading marks and other instructions.
When you own the vanity press, as Wolfram does, you can do
whatever you please.
The review at the following URL (Physics Review) is worth
reading.

http://www.aip.org/pt/vol-55/iss-7/p55.[html

](http://www.aip.org/pt/vol-55/iss-7/p55.html) /Bruce
Nevin

···

At 08:19 PM 9/18/2002 -0600, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Mike Acree
(2002.09.20.1604 PDT)]

Bruce Nevin (2002.09.20 15:37 PDT)–

Thanks for the reference, Bruce–the first
published review by a physicist I’ve read. I’m not sure what a
theory of cellular automata would be, but Kadanoff’s review still
seems fair to me.

Powers:

how come he doesn’t label his figures so you can
refer to them as, for
example, “Fig. 1”?).

Acree:

In the standard literature, figures are numbered because the author
and
typesetter are not the same person, and the author doesn’t know where
a
given figure will end up.

Powers:

I’ve never heard that reason for numbering figures before. It’s
certainly
not why I number figures in my own papers or books.I number them
so I can
say “Look at Fig. 4 on page 182.”

Nevin:

I can’t speak for physics, which seems to be an inconstant thing these
days, but as a matter of publishing standards and culture history Bill’s got
it right. Look in Chicago Manual of Style , for example. Note too that
if figure and table numbers were only a communication from the author to the
typesetter then they would routinely be omitted by the typesetter along with
numerous proofreading marks and other instructions.

I was basing my assumption on statements
like this one from the Publication Manual of the American Psychological
Association: “Number all tables with arabic numerals in the order in
which the tables are first mentioned in text, regardless of whether a more
detailed discussion of the tables occurs later in the paper (the
typesetter lays out tables and figures closest to where they are first
mentioned).” But t his is surely
the most trivial point I’ve ever discussed on CSGNet, and I’m
quite willing to yield.

Mike