Zombies and PCT

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0736)]

_Phantoms in the Brain_ by Ramachandran and Blakeslee includes at least one
chapter with implications for PCT, or so it seems to me. Chapter Four, "The
Zombie in the Brain" outlines evidence that the processing of visual input
divides into two paths. One of these is associated with our awareness of
seeing. The second is associated with control (the Zombie circuit).
Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still exercise control
(blindsight). Even when the first circuit is misled by an "optical
illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently.

[From Bill Powers (2001.02.11.1617 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0736)--
Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still exercise control
(blindsight). Even when the first circuit is misled by an "optical
illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently.

We already recognize, tentatively, 11 "circuits" in PCT. I think blindsight
is simply the operation of lower levels of control when something has
happened to higher levels.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0955)]

Bill Powers (2001.02.11.1617 MST)]

>Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0736)--
>Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still exercise control
>(blindsight). Even when the first circuit is misled by an "optical
>illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently.

We already recognize, tentatively, 11 "circuits" in PCT. I think blindsight
is simply the operation of lower levels of control when something has
happened to higher levels.

I never learn, do I.

BG

[From Rick Marken (01.02.11.1400)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0736) --

Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still exercise
control (blindsight). Even when the first circuit is misled by an
"optical illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently.

Bill Powers (2001.02.11.1617 MST) --

We already recognize, tentatively, 11 "circuits" in PCT. I think
blindsight is simply the operation of lower levels of control when
something has happened to higher levels.

Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0955) --

I never learn, do I.

I don't understand this interaction. What about it led you to
conclude that you never learn?

Best regards

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.1804)]

Rick Marken (01.02.11.1400)

I don't understand this interaction. What about it led you to
conclude that you never learn?

I keep forgetting that PCT has all the answers and that no data is of any
interest unless it explicitly involves testing a controlled variable.

BG

[From Bruce Nevin (2001.02.11 20:03 EST)]

Bill Powers (2001.02.11.1617 MST) --

>Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.0736)--
>Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still exercise control
>(blindsight). Even when the first circuit is misled by an "optical
>illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently.

We already recognize, tentatively, 11 "circuits" in PCT. I think blindsight
is simply the operation of lower levels of control when something has
happened to higher levels.

The "blindsight" business seems to have to do with awareness. I would guess that we're only talking here about the lowest three levels of the hierarchy (configuration, sensation, and intensity) since the person is unable to see "objects". Ordinarily, we can be aware of visual perceptions at various levels of the hierarchy, right down to intensities. For what you say to explain anything, you would have to say that for some reason the person is able to control at levels *above* the configuration level (perceptions such as transitions, events, relationships, and categories, with configurations as inputs) without being able to be *aware* of the lower-level configurations. Is this what you intended to say?

         Bruce Nevin

···

At 06:20 AM 02/11/2001 -0700, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Rick Marken (01.02.11.2200 PST)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.1804)--

I keep forgetting that PCT has all the answers and that no
data is of any interest unless it explicitly involves testing
a controlled variable.

I still don't understand. You presented a very high level description
of the "blindsight" phenomenon that, you said, had implications for
PCT. Apparently Bill Powers thought so too since he explained how
PCT might deal with the phenomenon that he understood you to be
describing. Were you unhappy because Bill did not say that PCT
has nothing to say about the phenomenon?

Actually, I have no idea what "blindsight" is because I don't know
what was observed. For example, I have no idea what you mean when
you say "Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still
exercise control (blindsight)." How are the individuals impaired?
What is the "circuit" that is impaired? What were these impaired
individuals controlling? A description of the experimental procedure
would help enormously. Without such a description I can't even guess
what might be meant by: "Even when the first circuit is misled
by an "optical illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently."

It certainly sounds like "blindsight" could be a very interesting
phenomenon with implications for PCT. So I would like to know what
"blindsight" _is_.

Best regards

Rick

···

--

Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com

[From Hank Folson (01.02.11.2200)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.1804)

Rick Marken (01.02.11.1400)

I don't understand this interaction. What about it led you to
conclude that you never learn?

I keep forgetting that PCT has all the answers and that no data is of any
interest unless it explicitly involves testing a controlled variable.

If the best scientific description the authors could come up with for this
phenomenon is "The Zombie in the Brain", I should think you would find that
most upsetting.

For HPCT, the phenomena is easily explained by hierarchical control
systems. Thus the lack of excitement.

Sincerely, Hank Folson

www.henryjames.com

[From Bill Powers (2001.02.12.0018 MST)]

Rick Marken (01.02.11.2200 PST)--

Actually, I have no idea what "blindsight" is because I don't know
what was observed.

from what I've read on the subject, it seems that some people who seem not
to be conscious of seeing certain objects can nevertheless control them in
ways that would appear to require vision. I have always accepted this
observation as accurate; I tried to explain it in terms of loss of contact
between awareness (or maybe just higher-order systems) and the lower
systems actually doing the controlling (more or less what Hank Folson said).

If Bruce Gregory wants to object every time I offer a PCT interpretation of
something I have thought about before, or even something new to me (not the
case here), all I can suggest is that he perform an athletic exercise with
a rolling doughnut.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.0530)]

Hank Folson (01.02.11.2200)

>Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.1804)
>
>> Rick Marken (01.02.11.1400)
>>
>>I don't understand this interaction. What about it led you to
>>conclude that you never learn?
>
>I keep forgetting that PCT has all the answers and that no data is of any
>interest unless it explicitly involves testing a controlled variable.

If the best scientific description the authors could come up with for this
phenomenon is "The Zombie in the Brain", I should think you would find that
most upsetting.

For HPCT, the phenomena is easily explained by hierarchical control
systems. Thus the lack of excitement.

Nice illustration of my point.

BG

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.0532)]

Bill Powers (2001.02.12.0018 MST)

>From what I've read on the subject, it seems that some people who seem not
to be conscious of seeing certain objects can nevertheless control them in
ways that would appear to require vision. I have always accepted this
observation as accurate; I tried to explain it in terms of loss of contact
between awareness (or maybe just higher-order systems) and the lower
systems actually doing the controlling (more or less what Hank Folson said).

If Bruce Gregory wants to object every time I offer a PCT interpretation of
something I have thought about before, or even something new to me (not the
case here),

If "loss of contact between awareness (or maybe just higher order systems)"
is an example of "a PCT interpretation", I consider my case to be made.
Perhaps a control diagram would make your point more clear to me.

all I can suggest is that he perform an athletic exercise with
a rolling doughnut.

And exactly what athletic exercise did you have in mind?

BG

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.0650)]

Rick Marken (01.02.11.2200 PST)

Bruce Gregory (2001.0211.1804)--

> I keep forgetting that PCT has all the answers and that no
> data is of any interest unless it explicitly involves testing
> a controlled variable.

I still don't understand. You presented a very high level description
of the "blindsight" phenomenon that, you said, had implications for
PCT. Apparently Bill Powers thought so too since he explained how
PCT might deal with the phenomenon that he understood you to be
describing. Were you unhappy because Bill did not say that PCT
has nothing to say about the phenomenon?

Yes.

Actually, I have no idea what "blindsight" is because I don't know
what was observed. For example, I have no idea what you mean when
you say "Individuals with impairment of the first circuit can still
exercise control (blindsight)." How are the individuals impaired?

Damage to the temporal lobe. Subjects claim, and tests support the claim,
that they cannot see, yet they act as though they can, e.g., they can fit a
key in a lock with little or no fumbling in the absence of tactile feedback.

What is the "circuit" that is impaired?

The connection between the primary visual cortex and the temporal lobe. At
least this is what is inferred.

What were these impaired
individuals controlling?

See above.

A description of the experimental procedure
would help enormously. Without such a description I can't even guess
what might be meant by: "Even when the first circuit is misled
by an "optical illusion" the second circuit can operate efficiently."

Individuals are presented with an optical illusion. They "see" one of two
equally sized circles as larger than the other. Yet when they reach our to
"grab" the circles they adjust their en route motions to the proper size.
This is exactly what we would expect from PCT is the subjects could
perceive the "correct" size.

It certainly sounds like "blindsight" could be a very interesting
phenomenon with implications for PCT. So I would like to know what
"blindsight" _is_.

I hope this "illuminates" the subject. I recommend the book.

BG

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.1153)]

HPCT describes a world of zombies to the extent that awareness is not an
integral feature of the HPCT model. Awareness somehow floats above the
control system and observes it. (This is a purely verbal "explanation"
quite independent of the model.) The blindsight phenomenon suggests to me,
not there is something wrong with or missing from PCT, but that we cannot
assume that the perceptual world of our awareness is identical with the
perceptual signals in the PCT model. I find that interesting. Apparently no
one else does. So be it.

BG

[From Bill Powers (2001.02.12.0845 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.0532)--

If "loss of contact between awareness (or maybe just higher order systems)"
is an example of "a PCT interpretation", I consider my case to be made.
Perhaps a control diagram would make your point more clear to me.

I'm not sure what case you're trying to make; it would help if you said
what it is.

As to a diagram, I think a word picture might do almost as well. In HPCT,
there are control systems at many levels, which for various reasons I have
ventured to guess are concerned with control of intensities, sensations,
configurations, transitions, events, relationships, categories, sequences,
logical functions, principles, and system concepts, in ascending order. The
perceptions controlled at one level are functions of perceptions at the
next lower level (with the possibility of level-skipping in the perceptual
hierarchy). That is, without the lower-level perceptions being in
existence, the higher level perceptions that depend on them can't exist.

A higher-level system, in the present example at the level of categories,
controls by varying not the actions of the organism, but reference signals
at the next lower level: in this case, relationships. If the reference
signal stands for the relationship "key _in_ lock," then the
relationship-level system will send reference signals to lower systems
which bring that relationship into being in the perceptions at that level.
The same would apply to adjusting the fingers into the right relationship
with an object to pick it up. Those control actions, and the perceptions
they control, would exist entirely at the relationship level or below.

At the category level, I have conjectured, symbols become equivalent to
classes of perceptions. Terms like "key" and "lock" are equivalent to
categories of configurations, and "in" is equivalent to a category of
relationships. From that level up, perceptions are treated as discrete
symbols, and we can talk, think, and reason about the lower-level
experiences to which the symbols refer.
(To avoid sidetracks: I think there are also continuously-variable signals
at these higher levels).

What the blind-sight phenomenon suggested to me was that the category-level
systems were not receiving perceptual signals from systems at the
relationship level and downward. It would still be possible to send a
reference signal signifying "key in lock" or "fingers grasping object" to
the lower systems, and those system would carry out the control processes
needed to match the reference signals at the relationship level (using both
visual and tactile feedback), but the associated perceptions would not be
symbolized/categorized, nor would there be any perception of logical
functions, principles, or system concepts built on those lower perceptions
(the principle of "security," for example). If the person's awareness
operated primarily within those highest-level systems, the person might
well report (verbally) not being able to see the relationships or objects
-- because what the person consciously thinks of as a relationship or
object is actually a symbol or a category and not actually the lower-level
perception.

Of course the break could also be at a level higher than categories.

This is a straightforward application of HPCT. It doesn't prove that HPCT
is correct, but it suggests some testable hypotheses. Your remark that the
disconnect seems to be between the temporal cortex and the primary visual
cortex is circumstantial evidence about where the relationship and category
levels of HPCT might be located, if they exist and have been correctly
defined. I have guessed that language is carried out at the category,
sequence, and logic levels, so this is compatible with functions of the
temporal cortex -- the Area of Broca, for example. There might be other
phenomena that support these localizations, or that might provide a strong
reason to reject them or redefine the supposed levels.

I am following the normal sequence of processes involved in developing and
testing a model. The first step is always to fit the model to past
observations, adjusting its parts to get the best fit. The second step is
to use the model with the adjusted parameters to make a prediction of
something not yet observed. The third step is to compare the prediction
with what is actually found, and use the difference as the basis for
modifying the model. In the present case, I'm still at step 1; you can't go
on to steps 2 and 3 without some experimental resources. I've done as much
of that as I can using the resources I have (physical and mental).

Don't worry about the rolling doughnut -- it's a vestige of my blue-collar
upbringing. Just think of it as another picturesque way of telling someone
to go jump in a lake.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (01.02.12.1000)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.0650)--

Re: Blindsight

Subjects claim, and tests support the claim, that they cannot
see, yet they act as though they can, e.g., they can fit a
key in a lock with little or no fumbling in the absence of
tactile feedback.

It sounds like one test -- the putting key in the lock test --
indicates that they _can_ see. Did the authors really determine
that these people are blind? If so, how do they think these
people manage to fit the lock in the keyhole with no fumbling:
by extrasensory perception? It seems to me like Bill's explana-
tion is the obvious one -- PCT or not. These people can perceive
and control the perceptions involved in putting a key into
a lock. They are just not able to report on those perceptions.
from a PCT point of view this is either an awareness problem
or a disconnect between the lower level systems involved in
controlling for "key in lock" and the higher level systems
involved in controlling for reporting on these perceptions.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.1337)]

Bill Powers (2001.02.12.0845 MST)

If the person's awareness
operated primarily within those highest-level systems, the person might
well report (verbally) not being able to see the relationships or objects
-- because what the person consciously thinks of as a relationship or
object is actually a symbol or a category and not actually the lower-level
perception.

This I do not understand. The persons report seeing _nothing_. Your
description would seem to apply if the person saw patches of color or
patterns, but could not identify those patterns, or possibly even
characterize them as patterns. Is this correct? This is the reason that I
conjecture that the control machinery and the "awareness" machinery might
be parallel rather than identical.

Don't worry about the rolling doughnut -- it's a vestige of my blue-collar
upbringing. Just think of it as another picturesque way of telling someone
to go jump in a lake.

Right back at you, fella!

BG

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.1350)]

Rick Marken (01.02.12.1000)

Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.0650)--

Re: Blindsight

> Subjects claim, and tests support the claim, that they cannot
> see, yet they act as though they can, e.g., they can fit a
> key in a lock with little or no fumbling in the absence of
> tactile feedback.

It sounds like one test -- the putting key in the lock test --
indicates that they _can_ see.

Indeed at some level they can. But they don't know they can. Strange isn't it?

Did the authors really determine
that these people are blind?

Depends of course on what you mean by blind. They determined that the
people were unlikely to be lying or confabulating.

If so, how do they think these
people manage to fit the lock in the keyhole with no fumbling:
by extrasensory perception?

No, by "seeing". (Presumably if they wore blindfolds they would be unable
to perform the acts successfully.

It seems to me like Bill's explana-
tion is the obvious one -- PCT or not. These people can perceive
and control the perceptions involved in putting a key into
a lock. They are just not able to report on those perceptions.

That is, they are unaware that that they are perceiving anything.

>From a PCT point of view this is either an awareness problem
or a disconnect between the lower level systems involved in
controlling for "key in lock" and the higher level systems
involved in controlling for reporting on these perceptions.

I suggest that it can only be "an awareness problem". I am not sure what
you mean by "higher level systems involved in controlling for reporting on
these perceptions." At what level do we control for reporting?

BG

[From Rick Marken (01.02.12.1310 PST)

Me:

It sounds like one test -- the putting key in the lock test --
indicates that they _can_ see.

Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.1350)--

Indeed at some level they can. But they don't know they can.
Strange isn't it?

It's unusual but not that strange. It sounds a lot like what
Gazzaniga found with "split brain" patients. For example,
these patients will deny having seen an object presented to
their left visual field (non verbal right brain), even while
they are reliably picking it out from a group of objects
(presented to the left visual field) using their left hand.

Me:

They are just not able to report on those perceptions.

Ye:

That is, they are unaware that that they are perceiving
anything.

Not necessarily. They may have been consciously aware of the
perceptions being controlled but, like Gazzaniga's patients,
were simply unable to talk about them because those perceptions
never make it to the verbal levels. That is, the problem may be
what Bill suggested: that the category (verbal) level systems
were not receiving perceptual signals from systems at lower
level systems (relationship level and downward).

I suggest that it can only be "an awareness problem".

I think it can be _either_ an awareness problem or a
verbalization problem. Which it is can only be determined
by modeling and research. Either one of these (a model or an
experimental test of a model of blindsight) would probably get
a far more enthusiastic reception on CSGNet than would any
particular "suggestion".

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.1642)]

Rick Marken (01.02.12.1310 PST)

It's unusual but not that strange. It sounds a lot like what
Gazzaniga found with "split brain" patients. For example,
these patients will deny having seen an object presented to
their left visual field (non verbal right brain), even while
they are reliably picking it out from a group of objects
(presented to the left visual field) using their left hand.

I find that strange, but your experience may differ.

Me:

> They are just not able to report on those perceptions.

Ye:

> That is, they are unaware that that they are perceiving
> anything.

Not necessarily.

They may have been consciously aware of the
perceptions being controlled but, like Gazzaniga's patients,
were simply unable to talk about them because those perceptions
never make it to the verbal levels.

Your recollection of Gazzaniga's experiments differs from mine. As I
recall, the subject made up a story to explain why we was acting in the way
he was. I would not call this being consciously aware of the perceptions
being controlled for. You must be using the term "conscious awareness" in a
way that I am not familiar with. Again, I find the term "verbal levels"
unclear. Aren't all levels potentially verbal? For example, "I see a red
patch." Is this not a verbal report of a rather low-level perception?

That is, the problem may be
what Bill suggested: that the category (verbal) level systems
were not receiving perceptual signals from systems at lower
level systems (relationship level and downward).

Why is the category level any more verbal than the relationship level?
Sorry to be dense, but I just don't see this.

> I suggest that it can only be "an awareness problem".

I think it can be _either_ an awareness problem or a
verbalization problem. Which it is can only be determined
by modeling and research. Either one of these (a model or an
experimental test of a model of blindsight) would probably get
a far more enthusiastic reception on CSGNet than would any
particular "suggestion".

An excellent suggestion. Exactly how would you propose to distinguish
between an awareness problem and a verbalization problem. For example, if I
say I can't see anything, but I am manifesting blind sight, how do we know
if the problem is awareness or verbalization?

BG

[From Rick Marken (01.02.12.1545)]

Bruce Gregory (2001.0212.1642) --

You must be using the term "conscious awareness" in a way that
I am not familiar with.

I'm talking about a phenomenon that is not necessarily verbal.
Just because a person can't talk about something doesn't mean
that they are not consciously aware of it. I knew Gazzaniga at
UCSB and we discussed his work on occasion (he was good buddies
with my advisor who is now deceased). I seem to recall talking
about whether the non-verbal brain was aware of the object it
had perceived. One indication that it was is the fact that it
will point to the correct object when asked (apparently the
right brain can _understand_ language). So the non-verbal brain
will indicate awareness non-verbally just as the verbal brain
indicates awareness verbally: by pointing. Also, there are cases
where the right and left hand will "fight" over which is the
correct object to point at. This suggests possible awareness
on the part of the non-verbal brain since consciousness tends
to be focused on the perception we are fighting about (if not
_why_ we are fighting about it) when we are in conflict.

Again, I find the term "verbal levels" unclear. Aren't all
levels potentially verbal?

All lower levels are _involved_ in verbalization but I think the
behavior we call "talking" also requires the ability to control
high level perceptions -- categories and programs, for example --
that distinguish talking from other kinds of communicative
behaviors, like signaling.

Why is the category level any more verbal than the relationship
level? Sorry to be dense, but I just don't see this.

You need a category level to control categories. An important
aspect of language is the ability to use one type of perception (a
word) to represent a category of perceptions. You have to be able
to perceive categories in order to be able to control for this
very central aspect of language.

Exactly how would you propose to distinguish between an awareness
problem and a verbalization problem.

Got me. I'm having enough trouble figuring out how baseball players
catch fly balls and how economies work. But you're the one who
brought it up. Any thoughts on the matter? It sounds like a pretty
tricky (but possibly very rewarding) research problem to me.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com