Closed loop economics



From[Bill Williams 20 February 2004 3:OO PM CSG]

···

And, this hobby-like activity may turn up something novel, some new understanding about economics that may even be revolutionary and contrary to the understanding of all the credentialed economy experts.


I think that when you use the adjective “hobby-like” it might be a good idea to indicate if you are doing so with a smile or with a sneer.

Most of the new computational work in economics is done using what might be considered “small” programs. I’ve gotten what I consider

interesting results from just a few pages of code. And, my longest program was about two hundred pages. Bruun’s program for her

dissertation was a little over 90 pages.

Supposedly, men enjoy fishing and keep coming back to the lake for more fishing, even if they caught no “lawful keepers,” caught nothing, or even never had a nibble!

Fishing in these conditions is a great mystery.

But, this is not what I questioned. Have you made declarations about conventional economists and how what they believe is wrong based on your understandings or analyses? Have you announced discoveries when you can’t even explain precisely what you discovered or how you confirmed your discovery?

If you were at Rick Marken’s presentation on “Leakage” at the Boston CSG Conference (its available on videotape), you might appreciate why those who had some expertise in economics were appalled by Rick’s presentation. Based on some very limited modeling, with incomplete data, he was sure there was leakage in the economy as pontificated by Trevor Powers, and this realization had powerful implications for how to manage an economy which had escaped the experts.

Several economic “experts” (including Bill Williams) reacted adversely to the presentation.

“Adversely.” This is a nice way of putting it. I wish I could erase that whole session. But, I would stick to what I remember as what I said-- # that if you were going to use equations and transactions then when you set up equations respect the notion that the two sides of the #equation are equal to each other.

I think you could say they perceived Rick as arrogant and uninformed, a sheer novice.

This is I think accurate.

You could even say they might have hated Rick’s guts to present such drivel as a scholarly analysis worth considering further.

Hate Rick’s guts? I think this is a bit of an exageration. But “drivel” well, sure.

Now, anyone can buy the tape and observe what went on there that day. They may come to different conclusions than Bill Williams, Hugh Gibbons or me. But, I can speak for my own perceptions. I was convinced that I did not want to spend my time analyzing or refuting Rick’s methods or pronouncements concerning his economic models or the real economy and what works in it and what does not.

There is I suppose much to recomend Kenny’s convictions regarding further discussion of Rick’s efforts.

And, I did not, all these years until recently. I think what changed for me was Bill Power’s candid open rebuttal of Rick’s model, methods and assumptions as “a giant leap in the wrong direction.”

I applaud Bill Powers very through critique of Rick’s scheme. (I don’t wish to call it a model) However, I would think that Bill Powers was, even # at the Boston meeting aware of at least some of the deficiencies in the way Rick was proceeding.

In a rather aloof and pompous manner, Rick still characterizes his work, which he keeps referring to on his web site, as “pretty good.”

Rick sure is resilient.

Perhaps even more enticing was Bill Power’s acknowledgment of possible and even probable flaws in his father’s work (work that Rick seemed determined to verify as true).

I would join Kenny, and applaud these statements. However, Bill Powers has also made statements that are, at the least, somewhat #ambigious, and he continues it seems to me to express ambigiuous asssessments of the merits of the Leakages thesis.

Bill’s attempt to create a new and better model he called the economic Test Bed using control theory was a breath of fresh air to me. Bill humbly sought help from anyone, especially anyone with economics credentials to build a sound model and run it, before making arrogant claims.

I would in part disaggree with Kenny here. Bill Powers may have expressed his request for help in, as Kenny says, “humbly” but in actuality in #my judgement he was unwilling to approach the question of macro-ecnomic modeling in fresh terms. If you were, as I am, of the opinion that #the Keynesian system is at least a proximate description of exchange-- then Bill Powers would describe you as a “mathematical incompetent.” #So, in my view, the “arrogant claims” were built into Powers approach from the start.

To draw conclusions about the performance of a Model T Ford model to me would be rather like masturbating (enjoyment for oneself without any human interaction) since the science of auto design and manufacture has evolved considerably since then. Any conclusions reached, even if true about the Model T and its performance, would probably be utterly worthless for the high quality and performance cars of today.

Now, I also understand one has to start somewhere to build a model. Great. If Bill or you have the time and patience and determination to do that on the hope that you might someday develop a model that is instructive or useful concerning the current economies of nations, then all the power to you.

But, I see other fertile matters for my time. And, my Economic Stew, was only a way to acknowledge why I started and then quit contributing. It was not primarily because of Rick or Bill Williams and their offensive or unprofessional behavior on CSGNet.

Let’s not forget to recognize Bill Powers’ “contribution” in regard to “unprofessional behavior.” Threatening to “bite” I thought was a distinct #innovation. And, I think it could be said to have beenfollowed by a marked increase in “giant leaps in the wrong direction.”

Nothing new about that in our USA environment, even on what is characterized as a professional forum, or a Church for that matter. I still like both men and wish we remain PCT buddies.

Even the best of folks make mistakes from time to time.

Moving right along, Kenny says,

Please, bread is good. Burnt toast is not so good.

But, it does go so well with the serving of “stewed crow.”

<Later today or to morrow I will comment your “Economic Data Analysis�, Rick. I have found a Correlation coefficient at 1., and I don’t understand/believe it.>

Can’t wait to see your bread! If you know what I look like, you would speculate I am always hungry. Thanks for your contributions to the Economics thread. You might even entice me back!!

It has been my experience that identities sometimes have Correlation coefficients of approximately 1.

Bill williams

[From Rick Marken (2004.02.20.2300)]

Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.20)--

Well, you fooled me Kenny. I took you at your word when you said that any thoughts about the closed-loop nature of the economy would be appreciated. I see you have chosen, however, to get on my "Delete, do not read" list.

Good choice.

RSM

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bjorn Simonsen( 2004.02.21,09:45 EuST)]

From Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.20)

Ø But, this is
not what I questioned. Have you made declarations about conventional

economists
and how what they believe is wrong based on your understandings or

analyses? Have you announced discoveries when you can’t even explain
precisely

what you discovered or how you confirmed your discovery?

Here is one. One basic
argument in economic theory is that people are motivated for buying something. When an undergraduate studies economics
she learns about the demand curve. This is based on the motivation for pleasure
seeking and pain avoidance, utility theory. I think this is OK, but later graphical limitations (3 dimensions)
restrict the development of economic theory. Economic theory uses a demand
curve based on the choice of how much (one dimension) people wish bananas (the
second dimension) and how much people wish biscuits (the third dimension). If
you go to the library and ask for the book Bill W. recommended two months ago,
Steve Keen: “debunking Economics” you will find an entertaining account on what
is wrong. I haven’t discovered a substitute, but I “play with” the closed loop
and it is no problem to expand the theory development to six dimensions. Just
go to Rick’s hier.exl.

Ø
This
is not quite how closed and open loops are characterized in BCP. It is
more than feedback,

it involves causality, no?

Yes I agree. Is it also possible to include automatization?

Ø
I
also agree that nothing Rick presents shows the economy is a closed loop.
However, I think

we have evidence that the economy is open loop, for example, that inflation can
cause hyper inflation,

until the economy collapses. And, it only takes one real example to
disprove the closed loop

theory even if some or most of the time an economy appears to behave in a
closed loop manner.

PCTers should, more than most groups, all be aware of system behavioral
“illusions.”

I think Rick’s Econ004RM is a (first step) model that
shows the economy as a closed loop.

I agree that economy may look like an open loop when
we for example look at the German hyperinflation (last war). But I think it is possible to have a “hyper
inflation” in a closed loop if the slowing and/or Gain factor are wrong. It is
easy to see if you go to hier.exl and change the Gain or Slow value in level2.

Ø
Please,
bread is good. Burnt toast is not so good.

I’ll send you some
bread later today.

There is something in
your [From Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.20)] that I just skipped. And that was all
your comments about the Boston CSG Conference. I will repeat myself: “I think of those comments (I just browsed
them) as the outputs from a controlling process, whatever you control. I don’t
think of them as a description of the extern world.

Kenny, please look at
my last section as an output from a control process in myself. Neither my text
is a description of the “true” extern world.

I now talk about a
problem (my problem) reading the mails on this list. We all know PCT. We all
know that the trigger devise for all our mails (actions) is a function of the
error e. We all know that the e=r-p. We all know that we can’t say how much of the
outputs (our actions) come from r and how much comes from p. We also know that
p is the sum of the feed back variable and disturbance variables (the extern
world). Some of us (or most of us/all) think there is an extern world, but we are
humble for what it is.

bjorn

···

From[Bill Williams 21 February 2004 4:20 AM CST]

···

[From Bjorn Simonsen( 2004.02.21,09:45 EuST)]

One basic argument in economic theory is that people are motivated for buying something. When an undergraduate studies economics she learns about the demand curve. This is based on the motivation for pleasure seeking and pain avoidance, utility theory. I think this is OK,

However, consider the anomoly of the Giffen effect.

The purpose of utility theory is to generate downward

sloping demand functions. This downward sloping

property along with other parts of neo-classical

theory is used to generate the conclusion that a

market economy (the theoretical version anyway) can

be expected to be efficient, stable and equitable.

In the case of the Giffen effect a price increase will

generate an increase in demand this destroys the

conclusion that a market economy will neccesarily

be efficient, stable and equitable.

If you think utility theory as it is presented in

orthodox economics is “OK” then it would seem to me

that you are ignoring the emprical evidence the

experiements that generated the anomolies of the

Giffen effects.

If you go to the library and ask for the book Bill W. recommended two months ago, Steve Keen: “debunking Economics” you will find an entertaining account on what is wrong. I haven’t discovered a substitute,

A decade Bill Powers and I in colaboration

constructed a control theory model of a Giffen effect.

If you have a Turbo Pascal compiler I can email you

source code for the Giffen effect model. I also have

written a version of a demand curve in which the

princple of maximization is replaced by a control

theory conception of economic agency.

Ø I also agree that nothing Rick presents shows the economy is a closed loop. However, I think
we have evidence that the economy is open loop, for example, that inflation can cause hyper inflation,

Some people are of the opinion that the

Post WWI German hyper-inflation was

intensional.

it only takes one real example to disprove the closed loop
theory even if so

I think Rick’s Econ004RM is a (first step) model that shows the economy as a closed loop.

I agree that economy may look like an open loop when we for example look at the German hyperinflation (last war). But I think it is possible to have a “hyper inflation” in a closed loop if the slowing and/or Gain factor are wrong. It is easy to see if you go to hier.exl and change the Gain or Slow value in level2.

There is something in your [From Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.20)] that I just skipped. And that was all your comments about the Boston CSG Conference.

Those who are unwilling to learn from history, end up

learning from history, when events repeat

themselves.

I will repeat myself: “ I think of those comments (I just browsed them) as the outputs from a controlling process, whatever you control.

But, of course-- whatever else could they possibly

be?

I don’t think of them as a description of the extern world.

How would you describe video tape of the

conference ?

Kenny, please look at my last section as an output from a control process in myself. Neither my text is a description of the “true” extern world.

I now talk about a problem (my problem) reading the mails on this list.

It isn’t clear what you problem is.

We all know PCT. We all know that the trigger devise for all our mails (actions) is a function of the error e. We all know that the e=r-p. We all know that we can’t say how much of the outputs (our actions) come from r and how much comes from p. We also know that p is the sum of the feed back variable and disturbance variables (the extern world). Some of us (or most of us/all) think there is an extern world, but we are humble for what it is.

Which means what?

Look forward to your “bread.”

Bill Williams

From[Bill Williams 21 February 2004 5:00 AM CST]

[From Rick Marken (2004.02.20.2300)]

Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.20)--

Well, you fooled me Kenny.

Rick is easy to fool.

I took you at your word

Kenny doesn't use foul langage in public, but this is just a sneaky
tactic to fool prissy folks-- like Rick into being trusting.

[Rick he says took Kenny at his word when he] said that any thoughts about > the closed-loop nature of the economy would be appreciated.

Since Rick to me to task for not understanding mathematics recently I
will return the favor and explain to Rick about the real number line.
You see when Kenny said that "any thooughts about dada, dada dada,
would be appreciated what he meant was that any potential _contributions_
would be impartially considered, and assessed. However, when your
potential contributions were considered, they ended up somewhere south
of zero on a real number line. Ordinarily in common careless speach,
when we say "appreciation" we are doing so in a sort of empty headed
happy talk in which we hope or assume that what ever comes along will
be meritorious. But, the proper meaning of "appreciation" is neutral in
the sense that the appreciation is an assessment that can take on either
positive or negative values. Unfortunately your potential contribution,
when Kenny subjected it to an objective consideration, landed on the
wrong side of zero. Now, it isn't fair to charge Kenny with breaking
his word to you. He was doing his best to be fair-- but what you've
done, well, I am sure he was heart-broken-- but Kenny has some principles
and much as he, I am sure, regrets hurting your feelings, he has
chosen to stick to his principles. It wasn't that he broke his word
to you to give you efforts a favorable assessment-- regardless of their
true worth. You see, he only pledged himself to be honest, and this
sometimes isn't the same thing as being kind. If you had said he would
accept all contributions "kindly" then that might be an entirely
different matter.

Rick says to Kenny,

I see you have chosen, however, to get on my "Delete, do not read" list.

Good choice.

I wouldn't worry about this unfortunate attitude on Rick's part, he may as he says, have placed your posts on his "delete" list. But, Rick is just making things difficult for himself. Later to read what you've said he is going to go to the archive and look up what you have said. Take it from experience, its like when Rick announces that he is going away. (It is really cruel of Rick to falsely keep generating these expectations in those of us who still have some hope.) He doesn't mean what he says. But, if he does, I think you've joined good company.

Bill Williams

[Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.21)]

<Martin Taylor 2004.02.20.1601>

I also agree that nothing Rick presents shows the economy is a
closed loop. However, I think we have evidence that the economy is
open loop, for example, that inflation can cause hyper inflation,
until the economy collapses.

<Actually, isn’t that a description of a closed loop with positive feedback?>

Thanks, Martin. My words may have gotten in front of my brain using this example. In other words, I did not quite write what I meant.

What I wrote would be an example of a closed loop with positive feedback. Now, help me here. If the economy demonstrates itself to be a positive feedback loop (at least under some historic observed conditions), would you find it wise or prudent to construct a negative feedback loop model to simulate or test the behavior of the economy?

<Entropically, the economic system is clearly NOT a closed system (a
quite different concept from a closed loop).>

It appears we agree regarding what I meant to say. :sunglasses: The economy is clearly not a closed system (whether or not parts of the system are, or appear to be, closed loop processes.

Rick did not show it in his soliloquy titled “Closed loop economics.” But, it is not clear that this is clear to Rick. from the title and his text, he seems to try to show the economy is sort of closed loop as a means to justify using closed negative feedback loops for his model. This is the only point I was questioning. It seems to me this is a dead end approach. But, I could be wrong and if someone could explain it to me, I would certainly support at least Power’s Test bed economy simulation attempt.

Martin, here is another question for you. Entropically, is a human behavioral system also clearly not a closed system? If so, perhaps you (or Bill Powers) could try again to distinguish how using closed loops can be expected to be an accurate model for an open system.

Thanks. You have made some wonderful contributions to the economic thread.

[Martin Taylor 2004.02.21.1151]

[Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.21)]

Responding to

<Martin Taylor 2004.02.20.1601>

What I wrote would be an example of a closed loop with positive
feedback. Now, help me here. If the economy demonstrates itself to
be a positive feedback loop (at least under some historic observed
conditions), would you find it wise or prudent to construct a
negative feedback loop model to simulate or test the behavior of
the economy?

There's really no structural difference between loops with positive
and negative feedback. What changes is the magnitude of the
transformation imposed by some element in the loop. Not only can (for
example) the gain be high or low, it can be zero or negative. My old
"Bomb in the Machine" dsicussion suggests the potential implications
for reorganization in the hierarchy when part of the environmental
feedback loop changes its sign.

However, in the case in point (hyperinflation), the
information-theoretic analysis suggests that the part of the loop
that changed its sign was the perceptual function. I'll oversimplify
here. The perceptual function in question is one whose output signal
is the value of a good or service in units of money. The more
uncertain is the value of money, the more the seller will require, in
order to ensure that she will be able to use that money at some
future time to acquire a good or service of equivalent value to the
one sold.

All inflation leads to some such uncertainty, but there are other
sources of uncertainty as well, in the value of the goods and
services themselves. These mask the effects of a small amount of
inflation; some inflation is required simply because the value of a
future good or service is less certain than the value of a current
one, regardless of the value of a unit of money.

What happens when there is, for example, political uncertainty, is
that the future values of goods and services are less certain than in
times of political stability. Sellers therefore have to ask for more
money to cover the requirement that they will in future be able to
exchange that money for goods and services of similar value to the
ones sold now. That adds to the inflation, which increases the
uncertainty of the future value of money.

There comes a point at which the uncertainty caused by higher
inflation tips the environmental-feedback-through-perceptual-function
part of the loop into a state where the whole system goes into a
state of positive feedback. The future values of goods and services
become more uncertain because of the induced political instability,
and the future match of money to goods and services becomes more
uncertain because of the inflation itself.

Structurally, nothing changed, but the system behaviour changed mightily.

Martin, here is another question for you. Entropically, is a human
behavioral system also clearly not a closed system? If so, perhaps
you (or Bill Powers) could try again to distinguish how using closed
loops can be expected to be an accurate model for an open system.

Correct, it's not a closed system. People get energy by eating, and
they eliminate waste products. What is not shown in the functional
diagram of the elementary control loop is the energy source,
particularly for the output function. Usually, that's not a problem,
but it does relate to issues of intrinsic variables and
reorganization.

I think the need to consider this kind of issue is more important in
discussions of economics, because energy resource limitation is often
a key issue--as it can be for human individual control when the food
supply is inadeqate. But discussions of control theory usually are
not concerned with the energy-limited situation in individual
control, so it doesn't matter in the individual context.

Martin

[From Bjorn Simonsen( 2004.02.21,23:15
EuST)]

From[Bill
Williams 21 February 2004 4:20 AM CST]

One
basic argument in economic theory is that people are motivated for buying

something. When an undergraduate studies economics
she learns about the

demand curve.
This is based on the motivation for pleasure seeking and pain

avoidance,
utility theory. I think this is
OK, >>

However,

consider the anomaly of the Giffen effect.

The purpose

of utility theory is to generate downward

sloping

demand functions. This downward sloping

property

along with other parts of neo-classical

#theory is used
to generate the conclusion that a

market

economy (the theoretical version anyway) can

be expected

to be efficient, stable and equitable.

In the case

of the Giffen effect a price increase will

generate an

increase in demand this destroys the

conclusion

that a market economy will necessarily

be efficient,

stable and equitable.

If you think

utility theory as it is presented in

orthodox

economics is “OK” then it would seem to me

that you are

ignoring the emprical evidence the

experiments

that generated the anomalies of the

···

Giffen effects.

I still think it is OK to base a theory
(economics) on motivation, but I don’t think the falling demand curve (“Engels
curve” is the one correct. I know you are taken up with the “Giffen
effect” where the demand curve rises. There are also other curves for other special
products.

I don’t think utility theory as it is
presented on orthodox economics is “OK”. I really don’t know what I think, but
I am relying on you and Bill P’s control model. I don’t have Turbo Pascal, but
much can be read out from the source code. I appreciate both the source code
and your control theory based demand curve. My e-mail is bsimonsen@c2i.net

Those who are

unwilling to learn from history, end up

learning from

history, when events repeat

themselves

I don’t think so. I think as Kenny that causality
(read reference and reorganization) can change history.

I don’t think of them as a
description of the extern world.

How would you describe

video tape of the conference?

It
depends what I am controlling seeing the videotape.

We all know PCT. We all
know that the trigger devise for all our mails

(actions) is a function of the
error e. We all know that the e=r-p. We

all know that we can’t say how
much of the outputs (our actions) come

from r and how much comes from p.
We also know that p is the sum of

the feed back variable and
disturbance variables (the extern world).

Some of us (or most of us/all)
think there is an extern world, but we are

humble for what it is.>>

             #

Which means what?

For me it means an absolute respect for
the extern world. Maybe that is an empty phrase. But I still mean it.

bjorn

[From Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.22)]

<Rick Marken (2004.02.20.2300)>

<Well, you fooled me Kenny. I took you at your word when you said that
any thoughts about the closed-loop nature of the economy would be
appreciated.>

They were appreciated. I can see that even by your own admission that you can’t prove/show the economy has a closed loop configuration/nature. At least you are honest. And, because you tried to answer, I will reply (even though I really don’t want to continue to be embroiled in any debate about your economy modeling efforts or conclusions).

<I see you have chosen, however, to get on my “Delete, do
not read” list.>

Funny, funny. I know better than that and have always agreed with your position on the RTP mis-characterization.

Well, if you are serious, I don’t know whether to complain or brag! There are some fine folks who no longer care to associate with you. I am not one, however.

If you won’t read my critique of your answer, I guess you’ll just go on believing what you write is true. It is more comfortable than staying in the kitchen where it can get pretty hot for a chef. But, perhaps others like Martin, Bjorn, Bill P., Bill W. (gasp), etc., will offer input on your views or mine. We might both learn something.

From [Bill Williams 22 February 2004 10:30 PM CST]

Bjorn[21 February 2004] following an assertion that I made that the orthodox neo-classical system based upon the principle of maximization has what I regard as fatal difficulties, says,

I still think it is OK to base a theory of economics on motivation.

And, I would agree completely. Bjorn goes on to say that he also perceives difficulties “not OK” with the orthodox utility maximization conception of motivation.

One of the increasingly popular criticisms of utility maximization is assumption that all valuations are equally important in the sense of commensurability. For maximization to be possible utilities have to be additive, and this places severe restrictions upon economic behavior. My favor anomaly the Giffen paradox can not apparently be generated using utility maximization.

Bjorn goes on to make some remarks that I find puzzling, such as his stance toward an “external world.” In contrast to some other versions of psychology, control theory integrates an “external world” into the analysis of behavior is a way that is distinctive. Bjorn recognizes this and describes this relationship in terms of “respect.” Indeed, he insists upon, if I understand him correctly the importance of this relationship of “respect.” In some sense it would seem that a control theory conception would compel "a relationship of respect for an external world, however, I an not at this point aware that a control theoretic stance as to what in any detail such as stance would entail has been expounded in a way that is compelling.

Bjorn, I’ll email you code off line.

Bill Williams

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Bjørn Simonsen

To: CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu

Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 4:13 PM

Subject: Re: Closed loop economics

[From Bjorn Simonsen( 2004.02.21,23:15 EuST)]

From[Bill Williams 21 February 2004 4:20 AM CST]

One basic argument in economic theory is that people are motivated for buying

something. When an undergraduate studies economics she learns about the

demand curve. This is based on the motivation for pleasure seeking and pain

avoidance, utility theory. I think this is OK, >>

However, consider the anomaly of the Giffen effect.

The purpose of utility theory is to generate downward

sloping demand functions. This downward sloping

property along with other parts of neo-classical

#theory is used to generate the conclusion that a

market economy (the theoretical version anyway) can

be expected to be efficient, stable and equitable.

In the case of the Giffen effect a price increase will

generate an increase in demand this destroys the

conclusion that a market economy will necessarily

be efficient, stable and equitable.

If you think utility theory as it is presented in

orthodox economics is “OK” then it would seem to me

that you are ignoring the emprical evidence the

experiments that generated the anomalies of the

Giffen effects.

I still think it is OK to base a theory (economics) on motivation, but I don’t think the falling demand curve (“Engels curve” is the one correct. I know you are taken up with the “Giffen effect” where the demand curve rises. There are also other curves for other special products.

I don’t think utility theory as it is presented on orthodox economics is “OK”. I really don’t know what I think, but I am relying on you and Bill P’s control model. I don’t have Turbo Pascal, but much can be read out from the source code. I appreciate both the source code and your control theory based demand curve. My e-mail is bsimonsen@c2i.net

Those who are unwilling to learn from history, end up

learning from history, when events repeat

themselves

I don’t think so. I think as Kenny that causality (read reference and reorganization) can change history.

I don’t think of them as a description of the extern world.

How would you describe video tape of the conference?

It depends what I am controlling seeing the videotape.

We all know PCT. We all know that the trigger devise for all our mails

(actions) is a function of the error e. We all know that the e=r-p. We

all know that we can’t say how much of the outputs (our actions) come

from r and how much comes from p. We also know that p is the sum of

the feed back variable and disturbance variables (the extern world).

Some of us (or most of us/all) think there is an extern world, but we are

humble for what it is.>>

               # Which means what?

For me it means an absolute respect for the extern world. Maybe that is an empty phrase. But I still mean it.

bjorn

From[Bill Williams 22 February 2004 4:00 PM CST]

Bjorn,

As long as I am going to describe the Veblen/Duessenberry effect

program I might as well post the description and narrative to the

CSGnet.

The process that has become known as the Veblen-Duessenberry

effect involves a difference between the behavior of a consumer

in reaction to an increase in income, to a consumer faced with

a decrease in income. When I thought about this, from the

standpoint of control theory it seemed to me that what was

involved was a conflict between a consumer’s desired level of

consumption and the level of consumption that the consumer’s

budget would support. This isn’t an unusual condition for a

consumer in a mass-market capitalist society to experience.

So, I set up a consumer with a budget and a reference level

for consumption. If I set the level of consumption to be twice

the budget then two identical control loops would pull against

each other and the consumer would spend 50 percent more than

the budget. So, I put an integration step in the budget control

loop, and over time the integrating step resulted the consumer

settling down to spending no more than the budget.

However, if the consumer’s budget was suddenly increased it

was like the budget control loop vanished, and the consumer

reacted quickly by increasing spending rapidly.

However, when the budget was suddenly decreased the consumer

started decreasing spending, but, the decrease takes place as

a result of a conflict between the consumption and budget loops.

As a result of this conflict, the decrease in consumption takes

place more slowly than the increase in consumption when the budget

is suddenly increased.

Using the 200 data points from 1950 - 2000 their were five or

six rather sharp changes in income. Averaged the numbers came

out where the Veblen-Duessenberry model would predict. What

may be needed is individual data for consumers. And, the standard

statistical packages seem to make the assumpti0n that the process

considered is ergodic, and the VEblen-Duessenberry model doesn’t

assume that the process of increasing income is the same as the

process of decreasing income.

There are some minor variations in the way the program behaves

when making upward as opposed to downward adjustments. On the

upward adjustment there is a minor overshoot that takes place

when the consumer, while rapidly increasing expenditure catches

up to the increase in income. This overshoot doesn’t occur for

the downward adjustment. The difference is that the budget loop

doesn’t kick in on the upward adjustment until the consumer

exceeds the budget. While on the downward adjustment the consumer

is-- the whole time – experiencing a conflict between the two

control loops-- the budget and the consumption loop. And, on the

downward adjustment which is driven by the integration terms, the

consumer approaches the budget asymptotically.

The structure of the model is really simple, If you want to send

me your surface mail address I’ll send you Execute code so you can

see the program run. I can’t seem to send Execute code over the

university system any more. Putting funny names on the programs

used to work, but now the university seems to check the actual

code. If I thought about what they were doing, I could probably

find a way around what they are doing, but it seems easier for

me to just send stuff surface mail.

You can download Turbo Pascal 5.5 which will compile nearly all or

all the code I write from several places on the web.

If you want to run Turbo Pascal code, there are ways that you can

do it.

In the following I’ve include references and some comments about

VEblen and control theory

Veblen in the third part of his essay, "The Preconceptions of

Economic sciences states,

"The ultimate term or ground of knowledge is always

of a metaphysical character. It is something in the way

of a preconception, accepted uncritically, but applied

in criticism and demonstration of all else with which the

science is concerned. So soon as it comes to be criticized,

it is in a way to be superseded by a new, more or less

altered formulation: for criticism of it means that it is

no longer fit to survive unaltered in the altered complex

of habits of thought to which it is call upon to serve as

a fundamental principle. It is subject to natural selection

and selective adaptation, as are other conventions. The

underlying metaphysics of scientific research and purpose,

therefore changes gradually and, of course, incompletely,

much as is the case with the metaphysics underlying the

common law, and the schedule of civil rights. p. 149.

Coats, A. W. 1954 “The Influence of Veblen’s Methodology.”

Journal of Political Economy vol 62 # 6 December p 529-37.

One of the preconceptions to which Veblen paid close attention

were the psychological assumptions underlying economic theory.

I am of the opinion that Veblen’s work contains an anticipation

of a a control theory conception of behavior.

And, I have been at work collecting evidence to this effect.

See

Leibenstein, Harvey. 195O "Bandwagen, Snob, and Veblen Effects

in the Theory of Consumer’s Demand." Quarterly Journal of

Economics

Reisman, David. 1960 Thorstein Veblen: a Critical Interpretation

New York: Charles Scribner’s son’s

Veblen … had begun by interpreting adaptation as adaptation of

the environment to human activity rather than the reverse. p. 58.

Reisman’s description seems to me to indicate that Veblen was not

as many of his contemporaries were-- a behaviorist in the sense of

the Behavorism of John Watson, et al.

Rutherford, M 1988 "Veblen’s Evolutionary Programme: A Promise

Unfufilled. Cambridge Journal of Economics July vol 22 # 4

p 463-77.

 Institutionalism in the interwar period is devoid of

attempts to develop Veblen’s theory, and Veblen’s programme

remained a promise unfilled. p. 463.

Veblen’s program “… ultimately failed.” p. 464.

This has been the case largely I believe because in the absence of

an understanding of control theory Veblen’s discussion of human

behavior doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Hodgson, G. M. 1998 “Thorstein Veblen’s Evolutionary Economics.” CJE

vol 22

"Under the resolute leadership of Clarence Ayres (1944), IE

evolutionism was severed from biology and its socio-economic theory

downplayed the role of individual agency. "

Those who attempted to interprete Veblen frequently adopted the

psychology of behaviorism, and favored cultural rather than

psychological explainations.

McCormick 1983 “Veblen and Dussenbery effect”

Journal of Economic Issues vol 17 # 4 December

Gambs, John S. 1975 John Kenneth Galbraith

Boston; Hall & Company

chapter title “Forces that Molded Galbraith’s Thinking”

p. 34.

      "Standard economic theorists have little patience

  with psychology. They concede that Economics is a behavioral

  science but do not allow that knowledge to bother them too

  much.  One of them has even asked whether when some

  psychologist comes up with some new idea, the time-tested

  theories of economics must be rewritten. Of course the

  onward march of scientific discovery often invalidates

  previous discovery and often affects sciences other

  than those in which the new discovery is made.  p. 34.

  "There may be exceptions to all this, they concede, but the less

  said about them the better.

      No such simple do-it-yourself psychological principles can be

  disengaged from Veblen and Galbraith,   p. 34.

I, however, do think that Veblen’s program fits with control theory.

Seckler, David. 1962 "Thorstien Veblen and the Foudations of

Institutional Economics." Unpublished Doctoral Dissertation,

University of London, London School of Economics

Seckler, David William, 1962 _Thorstein Veblen and the Foundations

of Institutional Economics_ Unpublished Dissertation, University

of London, London School of Economics, May 1962

p. " … Veblen fails to explain (systematically) anything and this,

in the last analysis is the true ‘secret of Veblen.’" p. 134.

" [the fact remains] … that it is impossible to construct a

systematic theory, consistent with any of Veblen’s major

concepts, out of the best of Veblen." p. 146.

Campbell, Colin 1995 "Conspicious Confusion? A Critique of Veblen’s

Theory of the Conscpicious Consumption" Sociological Theory

 Vol 13  # 1 March  p. 37-47.

People could become very frustrated when Veblen didn’t do thinks

the way they thought he should. Witness Seckler in the above.

Doug, Brown. editor 1998 _Thorstein Veblen in the Twenty-First

Century:A Commemoration of the Theory of the Leisure Class

(1899-1999)

Edward Elgar: Cheltenham, Uk

Noyes, C. Reinold. 1948 _Economic Man in relation to his Natural

Environment_ New York: Columbia University Press

 p. 996.  "A Study of this kind does not lend itself to any

 succinct summary.  The conclusions are all tentative and they

 strew themselves along the whole process of examining the

 evidence.  Nevertheless

 1.  Organisms, including man, are no reaction-mechanisms for

 response to enivornmental stimuli.

Some economists were critical of behavorism fairly early on.

Gambs, John. Beyond Supply and Demand 1947

“Veblen deserves his john Stuart Mill.” p. 89-90

Mill took the rather inaccessible classical texts in econmics and

brought out much more accessible texts. However, in the absence

of control theory I don’t think VEblen’s stuff makes much sense.

···

Program Bjorn { 22 Feburary 2OO4 }

          {  program VD5;  (* 11 August 2001  W.D. Williams  UMKC *)  }

uses

   dos, crt, graph, grutils;

var

 qi,  p,r,e,o, disturbance :real;

 p2, r2, e2, o2   : real;

 p3,     e3, o3   : real;

 e4, o4   : real;

 e5, o5   : real;

 gain, slow, damping, d gain2, slow2 :real

cycle,  b,  bes, be, bi, bg, cl, bl : real;

   b2, bes2, be2, bi2, bg2, cl2, bl2 : real;

   b3,  bes3, be3, bi3,     cl3, bl3 : real;

   b4,  bes4, be4, bi4,     cl4, bl4 : real;

   b5,  bes5, be5, bi5,     cl5, bl5 : real;

step, length, jump, jump2, jump3 , jump4, jump5 : real;

key : char;

i, c, rep, space, count : integer;

{ Each controller 1 - 5 represents an individual economic agent }

procedure controller1;

begin

e := r - o; {Error Consumption = Reference Level - Perceieved Output }

be := b - o; {Error Budget = Budget - Expenditure }

if be > 0 then { if expenditure is less than the budget reduce the }

               { existing budget error by a fraction on each cycle }

    begin

      be := 0;

      bi:= bi - bi/ ( damping  ) ;

     end

   else      { if expenditure is more than the budget add to the budget }

             { integrated error a fraction of the current error         }

     begin

       bi := bi + be/( damping );

      end;

   cl :=  ( gain * e - o)/slow;  { slowing proceedure to stablize loop }

   bl :=  ( bg * bi - o)/slow;   { slowing proceedure to stablize loop }

   o  :=    o  + cl + bl;  { add the action of the budget and  }

  end;                    { consumption loops to get total expenditure}

procedure controller2;

begin

  e2 :=  r - o2;

  be2 := b2 - o2;

  if be2 > 0 then

    begin

      be2 := 0;

      bi2 := bi2 - bi2/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi2 := bi2 + be2/damping  ;

      end;

   cl2 :=  ( gain * e2 - o2)/slow;

   bl2 :=  ( bg * bi2 - o2)/slow;

   o2  :=   o2  + cl2 + bl2;

  end;

procedure controller3;

begin

  e3 :=  r - o3;

  be3 := b3 - o3;

  if be3 > 0 then

    begin

      be3 := 0;

      bi3 := bi3 - bi3/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi3 := bi3 + be3/damping  ;

      end;

   cl3 :=  ( gain * e3 - o3)/slow;

   bl3 :=  ( bg * bi3 - o3)/slow;

   o3  :=   o3  + cl3 + bl3;

  end;

procedure controller4;

begin

  e4 :=  r - o4;

  be4 := b4 - o4;

  if be4 > 0 then

    begin

      be4 := 0;

      bi4 := bi4 - bi4/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi4 := bi4 + be4/damping  ;

      end;

   cl4 :=  ( gain * e4 - o4)/slow;

   bl4 :=  ( bg * bi4 - o4)/slow;

   o4  :=   o4  + cl4 + bl4;

  end;

procedure controller5;

begin

  e5 :=  r - o5;

  be5 := b5 - o5;

  if be5 > 0 then

    begin

      be5 := 0;

      bi5 := bi5 - bi5/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi5 := bi5 + be5/damping  ;

      end;

   cl5 :=  ( gain * e5 - o5)/slow;

   bl5 :=  ( bg  * bi5 - o5)/slow;

   o5  :=   o5  + cl5 + bl5;

  end;

procedure display1;

begin

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(r), yellow);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o5 ), lightred );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b5 ), lightgray );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o4 ), lightred );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b4 ), lightgray );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o3 ), lightred );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b3 ), lightgray);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o2 ), lightred);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b2 ), lightgray);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o), lightred);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b), lightgray);

end;

procedure set_variable_values;

 begin

   disturbance :=    0;

   bg          :=    7;    (* budget gain      *)

   gain        :=   10;    (* consumption gain *)

   bg2         :=    7;

   gain2       :=   10;

   be          :=    0;

   be2         :=    0;

   slow        :=   60;

   slow2       :=   60;

   damping     :=   80;

   count       :=    1;

   rep         :=    1;

   step        :=  200;

   length      :=  600;

   bi          :=  100;

   bi2         :=  100 ;

   jump        :=  -50;

   jump2       :=  -75;

   jump3       :=  -100;

   jump4       :=  -125;

   jump5       :=  -150;

   b           := 0;

   b2          := 0;

   r           :=   200;

   cycle       :=    0;

 end;

begin

 initgraphics;

 set_variable_values;

repeat

outtextXY(50,20,‘Yellow line is Consumption Goal.’);

setcolor(lightblue);

outtextXY(135,195,’^’);

outtextXY(435,245,’^’);

setcolor(white);

outtextXY(50,430,‘Grey lines are consumer budgets.’);

outtextXY(50,420,‘Red traces are consumer expenditures.’);

setcolor(yellow);

outtextXY(50,440,‘Press spacebar to cycle program. Press Q/q to quit.’);

setcolor(white);

 for i := count to count + 1280 do

    begin

      controller1;  (* Run Consumption and Budget control loops *)

      controller2;

      controller3;

      controller4;

      controller5;  (* Run Consumption and Budget control loops *)

program VD5; (* 11 August 2001 W.D. Williams UMKC *)

 uses

   dos, crt, graph, grutils;

var

qi,  p,r,e,o, disturbance :real;

     p2, r2, e2, o2   : real;

     p3,     e3, o3   : real;

             e4, o4   : real;

             e5, o5   : real;

gain, slow, damping, d :real;

gain2, slow2,

cycle,  b,  bes, be, bi, bg, cl, bl : real;

   b2, bes2, be2, bi2, bg2, cl2, bl2 : real;

   b3,  bes3, be3, bi3,     cl3, bl3 : real;

   b4,  bes4, be4, bi4,     cl4, bl4 : real;

   b5,  bes5, be5, bi5,     cl5, bl5 : real;

step, length, jump, jump2, jump3 , jump4, jump5 : real;

key : char;

i, c, rep, space, count : integer;

procedure controller1;

begin

  e :=  r - o;

  be := b - o;

  if be > 0 then

    begin

      be := 0;

      bi:= bi - bi/ ( damping  ) ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi := bi + be/( damping );

      end;

   cl :=  ( gain * e - o)/slow;

   bl :=  ( bg * bi - o)/slow;

   o  :=    o  + cl + bl;

  end;

procedure controller2;

begin

  e2 :=  r - o2;

  be2 := b2 - o2;

  if be2 > 0 then

    begin

      be2 := 0;

      bi2 := bi2 - bi2/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi2 := bi2 + be2/damping  ;

      end;

   cl2 :=  ( gain * e2 - o2)/slow;

   bl2 :=  ( bg * bi2 - o2)/slow;

   o2  :=   o2  + cl2 + bl2;

  end;

procedure controller3;

begin

  e3 :=  r - o3;

  be3 := b3 - o3;

  if be3 > 0 then

    begin

      be3 := 0;

      bi3 := bi3 - bi3/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi3 := bi3 + be3/damping  ;

      end;

   cl3 :=  ( gain * e3 - o3)/slow;

   bl3 :=  ( bg * bi3 - o3)/slow;

   o3  :=   o3  + cl3 + bl3;

  end;

procedure controller4;

begin

  e4 :=  r - o4;

  be4 := b4 - o4;

  if be4 > 0 then

    begin

      be4 := 0;

      bi4 := bi4 - bi4/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi4 := bi4 + be4/damping  ;

      end;

   cl4 :=  ( gain * e4 - o4)/slow;

   bl4 :=  ( bg * bi4 - o4)/slow;

   o4  :=   o4  + cl4 + bl4;

  end;

procedure controller5;

begin

  e5 :=  r - o5;

  be5 := b5 - o5;

  if be5 > 0 then

    begin

      be5 := 0;

      bi5 := bi5 - bi5/ damping ;

     end

   else

     begin

       bi5 := bi5 + be5/damping  ;

      end;

   cl5 :=  ( gain * e5 - o5)/slow;

   bl5 :=  ( bg  * bi5 - o5)/slow;

   o5  :=   o5  + cl5 + bl5;

  end;

procedure display1;

begin

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(r), yellow);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o5 ), lightred );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b5 ), lightgray );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o4 ), lightred );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b4 ), lightgray );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o3 ), lightred );

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b3 ), lightgray);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o2 ), lightred);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b2 ), lightgray);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(o), lightred);

 putpixel(round(i/2),vcenter - round(b), lightgray);

end;

procedure set_variable_values;

 begin

   disturbance :=    0;

   bg          :=    7;    (* budget gain      *)

   gain        :=   10;    (* consumption gain *)

   bg2         :=    7;

   gain2       :=   10;

   be          :=    0;

   be2         :=    0;

   slow        :=   60;

   slow2       :=   60;

   damping     :=   80;

   count       :=    1;

   rep         :=    1;

   step        :=  200;

   length      :=  600;

   bi          :=  100;

   bi2         :=  100 ;

   jump        :=  -50;

   jump2       :=  -75;

   jump3       :=  -100;

   jump4       :=  -125;

   jump5       :=  -150;

   b           := 0;

   b2          := 0;

   r           :=   200;

   cycle       :=    0;

 end;

begin

 initgraphics;

 set_variable_values;

repeat

outtextXY(50,20,‘Yellow line is Consumption Goal.’);

setcolor(lightblue);

outtextXY(135,195,’^’);

outtextXY(435,245,’^’);

setcolor(white);

outtextXY(50,430,‘Grey lines are consumer budgets.’);

outtextXY(50,420,‘Red traces are consumer expenditures.’);

setcolor(yellow);

outtextXY(50,440,‘Press spacebar to cycle program. Press Q/q to quit.’);

setcolor(white);

 for i := count to count + 1280 do

    begin

      controller1;  (* Consumption and Budget control loops *)

      controller2;

      controller3;

      controller4;

      controller5;

        display1;

      if i = step then b :=  b  - jump;

      if i = step then b2 := b2 - jump2;

      if i = step then b3 := b3 - jump3;

      if i = step then b4 := b4 - jump4;

      if i = step then b5 := b5 - jump5;

      if i = step + length then b :=  b  + jump;

      if i = step + length then b2 := b2 + jump2;

      if i = step + length then b3 := b3 + jump3;

      if i = step + length then b4 := b4 + jump4;

      if i = step + length then b5 := b5 + jump5;

    end;

if keypressed then key := readkey;

    if ( key = 'c') or (key = 'C') then clearviewport;

    if ( key = 'r')  then r := r - 25;

    if ( key = 'R')  then r := r + 25;

    if ( key = 'D')  then damping := damping + damping * 0.25;

    if ( key = 'd')  then damping := damping - damping * 0.25;

    if ( key = 'S')  then slow := slow + slow * 0.25;

    if ( key = 's')  then slow := slow - slow * 0.25;

    if ( key = 'j')  then

        begin

          jump := jump - jump/4;

          jump2 := jump2 - jump2/4;

          jump3 := jump3 - jump3/4;

          jump4 := jump4 - jump4/4;

          jump5 := jump5 - jump5/4;

        end;

    if ( key = 'J')  then

        begin

          jump := jump * 1.25;

          jump2 := jump2 * 1.25;

          jump3 := jump3 * 1.25;

          jump4 := jump4 * 1.25;

          jump5 := jump5 * 1.25;

        end;

    for i := count to count + 1280  do

      begin

        controller1;

        controller2;

        controller3;

        controller4;

        controller5;

          if count > 1 then display1;

       if  i = step then b  := b  + jump;

       if  i = step then b2 := b2 + jump2;

       if  i = step then b3 := b3 + jump3;

       if  i = step then b4 := b4 + jump4;

       if  i = step then b5 := b5 + jump5;

       if  i = step + length then b  := b  - jump;

       if  i = step + length then b2 := b2 - jump2;

       if  i = step + length then b3 := b3 - jump3;

       if  i = step + length then b4 := b4 - jump4;

       if  i = step + length then b5 := b5 - jump5;

     end;

 if count > 1 then

   begin

      key := readkey;

      clearviewport;

   end;

   inc(count);

 until key ='q';

closegraph;

end. { of program }

end of message

[From Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.22)]

<Rick Marken (2004.02.19.0855)>

It has been three days since I received this post. I appreciated receiving this response to my query below. Before responding to Rick’s explanation of his views about closed loop systems and how to model them, I wrote another reply to Bjorn which apparently upset Rick. So much so that he claims he now blocks my posts (a la Bill Williams).

I am not sure if Rick was serious or just poking back in a little fun. If he was serious about me being unfair, I am not sure what exactly triggers that unless expressing disagreement with his work is seen as unfair.

Anyway (hoping not to be redrawn into a project that I feel is bound to fail), I will comment on Rick’s explanations of economic systems and his models. Perhaps it will make some contribution to his efforts and to all others willing to work on Bill Power’s Economics Test Bed.

···

Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.18)–

I see no evidence that economies are closed loop systems.
I believe you can try to analyze them as such (using
currency flows, etc.). But, if economies are not
actually closed loop… why anyone hoping to study
the real system … use a closed loop model or simulation
to explain the real thing or improve it?

Any thoughts about this to test my conclusion would
be read and appreciated…

That puts us half in agreement.

So, here is the crux of the matter. Who thinks more correctly? And, I would hope some economics “experts” could explain which of us (possibly both) are wrong.

<The closed loop nature of the economy was suggested to me by the realization that the two main components of an economy, the aggregate consumer and the aggregate producer, are by and large the same people.>

The weasel words are “by and large.” How different would they have to be before this realization would be too incorrect to make such a theoretical assumption?

Isn’t it obvious that if all that was produced by all people was added up, it would not necessarily equal all that was consumed by all people? Take any kind of physical disaster (and there are many every day around the world) where what was produced is destroyed, say be a fire, hurricane, sunk tanker, etc. No one can consume that which was produced but never bought by the intended consumer. How is that factored in? Is that Leakage? How about produced goods that no one buys and they become waste or scrap? How about war and mad cow disease?

It is not even true that all that is consumed was produced, at least not in the sense that some consumer paid some producer with money. It seems your model only considerers financial or monetary transactions. How would barter or gifting/charity be included? Aren’t these part of, even a significant part of, the real aggregate economy of a nation? Are they the opposite of leakages, like transfusions?

<can economy as an aggregate producer that acts on the environment
(consisting of raw materials) to produce a reference amount of goods
and services for itself as the aggregate consumer. This aggregate view
gives a picture of an economy that is strikingly similar to the control
theory view of the individual humans that are the elements of that
economy.>

I was a production planner for a business at one time. So, I see some potential application here. If we had orders for 100 widgets to be delivered the next month. I would produce 120. Demand does influence supply. But, there are clearly cases where supply creates demand. And, what would the aggregate model of production be based upon, the 120 or the 100? And, what price would we apply to either, list price, collected price with or without volume discounts, rebates or late delivery penalties? What would we do about bad debts, where what was produced was consumed but the agreed upon price was never paid?

These may be details but can they be dismissed with rose colored glasses if we are attempting to draw accurate conclusions from data that can’t be characterized or understood or shown to be consistent from period to period? Some of these things could be significantly significant. And, perhaps they would change the correlation, including such manipulations as comparing data in displaced time frames searching for a higher correlation coefficient.

And, I would suspect that any credentialed statistician would choke on your methodology where because a selected delayed time frame of variables comparison produces a higher correlation, it indicates which variable is a cause of the others movement.

<A human being, from the control theory perspective, is a system that
acts on it’s environment to produce a reference amount of input for
itself to consume (sometimes literally) as perceptions. The simplest
“economy” is, thus, an individual control system: it hunts and gathers
to produce food for itself, it chips at stones to produce the tools it
uses (consumes) in order to produce the food it consumes (the use of
tools being the consumption of capital goods), and so on.>

Being a PCTer, we can describe all behavior as the control of perception. Rick makes a giant leap in describing a human being as an economic system. I guess a beaver would be an economic system too?

<A more realistic economy involves some division of labor so that
different control systems specialize in the production of the different
products that all systems want and need to consume. Some systems
produce food, others produce computers, still others care for the sick
and so on. This specialization can improve production dramatically
(this was nicely described by Smith in Wealth of Nations) but it
works only if there is some method for sharing the results of this
specialized production. This is because each group of specialists can
produce far more of their product than they themselves can consume and,
because the specialists are not producing the other products that they
themselves also want. The food producers can produce far more food than
they need but they don’t have time to produce the computers they want.
The computer producers can produce far more computers than they need
but they don’t have time to produce food they need. And so on. But all
groups of specialists want what each specialist group produces: food,
computers, health care, etc. So they have to find a way to share the
results of their production. This is where barter, markets and money
comes in.>

A pretty good description of a free market economy. As I recall Adam Smith somehow figured out a scheme comparing the human body with the economy even without understanding PCT or closed loop models. So, Rick won’t be first plowing new ground, but perhaps he can build on his Smith’s analogies and foundations in a worthwhile manner.

<If every individual control system produced everything it wanted for
itself then the study of economics would be equivalent to the study of
individual control organization. And it would be clear that an economy

  • a single individual - is a closed loop system.>

Rick needs to respond to Martin who is quite convinced that neither humans nor economies are closed loop systems.

<But we now live in a
complex organization of individual control systems where each
individual devotes much of its time to the production of specialized
products that are collected together and made available to all
individuals via markets. So each individual in an economy produces a
specialized product (or products), gets money for doing so and goes to
a market and purchases what it wants of all the products produced by
specialization. Each individual is a control system. But in a
specialized economy, individuals control their inputs (the food,
computers, medical care, etc.) relative to their references by
producing specialized products in return for money that is used to
purchase these inputs.

In a specialized economy like ours, the closed loop nature of the
economy can probably be seen more clearly at the aggregate than at the
individual level. At the aggregate level we see an aggregate control
system with a virtual reference for some amount of the many different
kinds of goods and services that make up GNP (an array of goods and
services that no individual could possibly produce on its own). This
aggregate control systems works, in the role of aggregate producer, to
convert the raw materials of the environment into this array of desired
goods and services and, in the role of aggregate consumer, consumes
what is is producing. This is my big picture view of the economy as a
closed loop system.>

I think there are different definitions being used for open and closed systems and whether there is a feed back loop that is positive or negative as Martin has expounded. Perhaps Bill Powers could explain how he sees these issues, especially concerning the Test Bed simulation of our economic system.

I am a bit confused now, and without going back to investigate what Bill or Rick have proposed or modeled, whether there are two unique control systems (producer and consumer) and how they are connected when Rick also seems to each person is both at once?

<If the economy were, indeed, open loop, then we would expect it to
produce as much as it was capable of producing at any particular time.
That is, the food producers would produce as much food as they are
capable of producing, the computer producers would produce as many
computers as they are capable of producing, and so on. But we know this doesn’t happen.>

Not true. Many countries do produce as much food as they can, and it still is not enough. Many factories do produce as many outputs as they can and can’t meet promised deliveries. So, what should we say, they are a closed loop system but out of control?

<The aggregate control system that is the economy seems
to vary its output (production of GNP) to match demand, which is
basically the aggregate or virtual reference for what is produced.>

Sure, at times it may do that or seem to do that. Have you ever seen anyone say the USA intentionally reduced or restrained its GNP because it thought it was all it should produce. Like, "Hey, we better not make more Chevy’s or produce more movies, it will drive the GNP too high? I think the US economy is more limited by capability than demand. But, someone may see it differently or it may be different in certain times, such as wars.

<Just as, at the individual level, we don’t keep producing, say, food
input for ourselves simply because we are capable of producing more of
that input, the economy doesn’t keep producing goods and services for
itself simply because it is capable of producing more goods and
services. The economy, like an individual control system, seems to
produce the reference amount of input.>

So, I wonder how the producer of Passion knew in advance what the reference amount for his type of new movie would be?

<I think the analysis of the investment/growth relationship also
demonstrates the closed loop nature of the economy. In an open loop
system, increased investment would drive increased growth as a one way,
causal process. But the data show that the the effect of investment on
growth is limited by demand (the reference for how much of what is
produced will be consumed). The aggregate producer invests to drive
production in order to meet the reference for what is produced. The
amount produced seems to be a controlled rather than a dependent
variable.>

So what is the dependent variable, what is consumed? Or, is that controlled too? Don’t people typically want more products, at least some of the time? If demand is open some of the time, and as you say what is produced is limited to what is wanted, then isn’t production basically open as well at least under some conditions?

<Of course, none of this proves that the economy is really a closed loop
system. What is needed, I think, are more tests of both closed and
open loop models of the economy to see which model does a better job of accounting for the observed macro economic data.>

That is a worthy task. But, do we need a model to determine whether the macro economy we observe is open or closed?

Why can’t we tell if the observed/real economy is open or closed and then try to build a corresponding model to test how the actual system might best be increased the most? Or, are you sure there should be some limit imposed to keep an economy from going open and growing like weeds? I suppose we would not be worrying about jobless rates if it was open wide.

Well, there are more questions here than answers. But, I do not claim to be a credentialed expert. And, if a closed loop negative feedback model helps us understand and grow an economy in ways we don’t currently comprehend, then that would be a most welcome development fostered by a PCT view of human behavior.

From[Bill Williams 22 February 2004 7:00 PM CST]

Kenny is his post [Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.22)] asks, many

questions-- a great many questions. I am not going to, even

though officially I am a credentialized expert, and sometimes

walk the streets wearing a sign board that says, Ph.D.,

attempt to answer any of the questions that Kenny poses- not

at least question by question. Rather what I’d like to do

is to consider the issue of how it is that many people

have come to have questions about the economy and economic

theory very similar to the questions that Kenny raises.

The questions that Kenny asks involve fundamental issues

concerning the meaning of the economic process and the

nature of theoretical economics. The basic question that

seems to have provoked Kenny and a question which still

has not been answered is one of how the economic process

is related to the non-economic aspects of reality. Is

the economy a “closed-loop” which is sufficient unto itself,

or is it an “Open-loop” process which is changing as time

goes on and a process which is engaged in interaction with

earth’s bio-sphere? So, far in the exchange which has been

taken place between Kenney and Bill Powers and Rick Marken

there has been little clarification of basic issues, and

basic terms. So, the parties are still talking past one

another, or as the dialog has developed not talking to

each other at all. This is the result of Bill Powers and

Rick Marken’s becoming “upset” with the reception that

their revolutionizing of economic theory was being accorded.

The situation and tempers two and a quarter centuries ago

regarding economic questions were much as they are today.

At the time of Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations the United

States was in the process of breaking away from Great Britain.

Why, one big reason was economic, or at least largely economic.

Great Britain had ideas about economic policy that did not

sit well with the American colonists. Smith’s new conception

of the economy as a “self-regulating” system was one which was

favorable to the Colonists side of the argument between the

colony and the old country. (Smith himself was a bit vague

and very circumspect, but it isn’t hard to see which side

Smith’s sympathies supported.) At the time, however, it

wasn’t easy for everyone involved to comprehend the situation

with any clarity. See Barbara Tuchman’s The March of Folly

for an explanation of this failure of Great British’s ruling

and intellectual class to see what was involved.

Now, two and a quarter centuries later we are again in a

situation, an even more complicated situation, in which it

isn’t easy to understand why many people feel things are

going wrong, but it isn’t easy to say what ought to be done

about it. Or maybe it is all to easy to say.

Bill Powers is of the opinion that sending a few people to

Mars would help bring people together in an exciting

adventure. And despite the fact that it would in his estimate

cost trillions and trillions of dollars, it really wouldn’t he

says, cost anything at all. I have a more modest goal that

some day I might be so fortunate as to live in a city in which

it is a pleasure to walk. Powers says that this is too mundane

a hope-- perhaps so. But, the question remains what can be done

about the current situation which many people feel is in some

vague way just unbearable. At the time of the American

revolution it wasn’t so hard to find an enemy-- the British

had acted conveniently stupid, but not so stupidly as to make

it easy to unite the country in rebellion. The war was a

“close-run” thing and it was only the intervention of the

French that made a decisive victory possible.

Now, at least in my opinion what is involved is a shift that

makes the sort of economic doctrine that has been thought

more or less satisfactory since Adam Smith is no longer

adequate for use in understanding economic events and for

use in constructing economic policy. Readers of Dam Smith

may note that the corporation doesn’t take up much space in

Smith’s Wealth of Nations. But, two and a quarter centuries

later, the corporation does play a big role in the economy,

and so does a big government. And, as a result, I think, of

vastly improved living conditions people have still higher

expectations about what it would take to make life ideal.

At least in my own view it is a developing clash between

these big organizations and an augmented individualism that

has set the stage for the present discontent with the way

things are. Bill Glasser quite some time ago wrote a book

on this topic that really was pretty good. It was before

his collaboration with Powers on Stations of the Mind.

But, even so, Glasser’s had a good idea. History could

be largely explained in terms of an evolving idea about

human worth, dignity and capacity-- a shift in reference

levels upward over time.

Glasser argument in The identity Society ( I think this

is the title) was one based upon an evolving notion or

increasingly lofty reference level for human well being,

dignity, and security. It isn’t that things are getting

worse, as it is that people are developing higher

expectations. And, in the current situation, it looks to

many people as if economic issues are dead center in any

question for why these aspirations can not be fulfilled.

If one examines TCP’s Leakages thesis one of the messages

which it contains is the assertion that if, somehow the

scientists and engineers could be freed from the

stupidities inherent in the current arrangements that the

result would be economic growth of something like ten

percent per year. And, significantly TCP identified

economic theory as the vampire that prevented the

realization of the plenty that modern science and

engineering were capable of providing. See Thorstein

Veblen’s earlier to some extent similar version (1921)

of this vision in his The Engineers and the Price System.

Or Veblen’s 1904 The Theory of Business Enterprise.

Is there a solution to these difficulties, a neat

solution that ties everything together, all the

questions Kenney asks, in a convent package?

Obviously at present there is nothing that remotely

compares to the answers that Adam Smith’s _Wealth of

Nations_ provided to how an evolving commercial/industrial

society should be organized. However, Bruce Nevin has

from time to time recommended his intellectual hero

Z Harris work to CSGnet folk. And, I would also

recommend Harris’ book The Transformation of Capitalism

as the most accessible answer to the problems which

Kenny is posing. Harris was a linguist rather than an

economist. But, there are, I believe, common features

(in principle at least) between the evolution of

languages and the evolution of economies-- both are

in a sense part of a larger pattern, the evolution of

cultures. And, the questions that Kenny is asking are

fundamentally about the evolution of a large element

in culture-- the economic aspect of culture.

                      Harris, Zellig S. (Zellig Sabbettai), 1909-

Title

                      The transformation of capitalist society / Zellig S. Harris.

Published

                      Lanham, Md. : Rowman & Littlefield,

On Behalf of the Author

Foreword / Wolf V. Heydebrand

Preface

1 Overview: The Possibilities of Change

2 Basic Terms in Describing Society

3 Capitalist Decisions on Production

4 Considerations in Analyzing Social Change

5 Potentially Post-Capitalist Developments

6 How Capitalism Began

7 Self-Governed Production

8 In the Aftermath of Soviet Communism

9 Intervening in the Historical Process

Index

About the Author

The process which Harris describes is know within economics

as the theory of institutional adjustment. It is a theory—

well more like an anticipation of a theory, that seems likely

to require modern control theory for its formulation. By

modern control theory I mean the conception of control theory

that followed the initial or classical formulation in which

single control systems are combined. In the modern formulation

complex configurations of control systems are the subject of

analysis. And, this approach may be what is required for the

rigorous analysis of phenomena such as the evolution of

language and the evolution of economic systems. The questions

that Kenny wants answered, will require the techniques of

modern control theory to generate answers. Once they are

generated, however, I don’t see any barrier the development

of a common-sense approach based upon such techniques. But

this requires an approach that is quite different from the

efforts which have been a part of the Test Bed project.

Such questions aren’t going to answerable by what

amounts to a process of masturbation with the data.

Bill Williams

[Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.23)]

<Martin Taylor 2004.02.21.1151>

What I wrote would be an example of a closed loop with positive
feedback. Now, help me here. If the economy demonstrates itself to
be a positive feedback loop (at least under some historic observed
conditions), would you find it wise or prudent to construct a
negative feedback loop model to simulate or test the behavior of
the economy?

<There’s really no structural difference between loops with positive
and negative feedback.>

A loop is a loop I suppose.

<What changes is the magnitude of the
transformation imposed by some element in the loop. Not only can (for
example) the gain be high or low, it can be zero or negative. My old
“Bomb in the Machine” dsicussion suggests the potential implications
for reorganization in the hierarchy when part of the environmental
feedback loop changes its sign.>

In a negative feedback control loop, an action would cause a reduction in the difference between the reference and percevied signals for the variable being controlled. Is that right?

In a positive feedback control loop, an action would cause an increase in that difference. Is that right?

I can see how “gain” might affect the magnitude of the increase or decrease for the same action. Is that right? But, can gain actually change the “sign” of the change when the action is the same? Could you give an example?

<However, in the case in point (hyperinflation), the
information-theoretic analysis suggests that the part of the loop
that changed its sign was the perceptual function.>

Don’t understand how you would know that or exactly what you mean.

<I’ll oversimplify here.>

Please.

Is a perceptual funtion different than the perceptual variable? If so, please give a simple example.

<The more uncertain is the value of money, the more the seller will require, in order to ensure that she will be able to use that money at some future time to acquire a good or service of equivalent value to the
one sold.>

I understand that and think I can accept that. But, isn’t it also likely that the seller will keep the product rather than exchange it for money whose future value is uncertain? Barter instead of sell?

<All inflation leads to some such uncertainty, but there are other
sources of uncertainty as well, in the value of the goods and
services themselves. These mask the effects of a small amount of
inflation; some inflation is required simply because the value of a
future good or service is less certain than the value of a current
one, regardless of the value of a unit of money.>

Well, I am not convinced this is a universal principle regardless of the value of money (compared to some standard like gold) now or in the future. It seems that regarding products like computers, the historic evidence is that the value is quite certain to fall with time (if the capabilites/features are the same).

<What happens when there is, for example, political uncertainty, is
that the future values of goods and services are less certain than in
times of political stability.>

And, one particular political situation would be war.

<Sellers therefore have to ask for more
money to cover the requirement that they will in future be able to
exchange that money for goods and services of similar value to the
ones sold now. That adds to the inflation, which increases the
uncertainty of the future value of money.>

I guess that is an example of positive feedback? But, in the hyperinflation case, it would seem that it is not “uncertainty” that is the driving force but strong belief that the value of the money will be less in the future?

Here, you are losing me with the “whole system” versus the value of money variable?

<The future values of goods and services
become more uncertain because of the induced political instability,
and the future match of money to goods and services becomes more
uncertain because of the inflation itself.

Structurally, nothing changed, but the system behaviour changed mightily.>

The system changed from negative to postitve? Or, is it fair to say the system changed from being self regulated to unregulated? I guess the idea of an unregulated (uncontrolled) system is what I originally had in mind when I argued that the system is properly describes as “open/linear” and not “closed/looped.” And I do see some difference, especially as Powers used the terms in B:CP.

Martin, here is another question for you. Entropically, is a human
behavioral system also clearly not a closed system? If so, perhaps
you (or Bill Powers) could try again to distinguish how using closed
loops can be expected to be an accurate model for an open system.

<Correct, it’s not a closed system.>

So, what does Rick not understand when he says,

<People get energy by eating, and
they eliminate waste products. What is not shown in the functional
diagram of the elementary control loop is the energy source,
particularly for the output function. Usually, that’s not a problem,
but it does relate to issues of intrinsic variables and
reorganization.>

I would like you to expound more on this if you could. If I surmise correctly, it would be like saying when my foot is broken, I have to reorganize how I get to the refrigerator to survive? My normal actions can’t reduce the blood sugar error.

But, now you are heading into an area that HPCT has always left me unsatisfied. Our bodies internal chemistry/biology control systems seem to affect our behavior just as much as any comparison of neural perceptions. Does this make any sense to you?

I similarly believe we have internal processes that create new reference signals without any inability to control and reorganize having occurred. Like aging. Actually, I think Bill has revised his position on when and how new reference variables or levels can come into being even if no previously defined “reorganization” occurs.

<I think the need to consider this kind of issue is more important in
discussions of economics, because energy resource limitation is often
a key issue–as it can be for human individual control when the food
supply is inadeqate. But discussions of control theory usually are
not concerned with the energy-limited situation in individual
control, so it doesn’t matter in the individual context.>

I agree and it is part of the reason that a theory that a producer produces to a reference level of output set by consumer demand is not necessarily correct. So, how could you assume that as a fundamental element of a model to explain what really happens in our economy?

Especially when it comes to the idea of investment (as I think Bill W. adroitly pointed out), and Adam Smith seemed to realize, that it is profit and not meeting consumer demand that drives investment. And investing for future revenue seems like an open system to me and I suspect my Merrill Lynch broker would agree that there is no self-regulated amount of investment or profit?

Man, this is confusing and one reason I need to stop trying to figure it out. I’ll leave it to the experts and loop modelers to find some intelligble answers about economies ane what makes them grow and how to grow em best.

From[Bill Williams 23 February 2004 2:20 PM CST]

[Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.23)] says,

Man, this is confusing and one reason I need to stop trying to figure it out. I’ll leave it to the experts and loop modelers to find some intelligible answers about economies ane what makes them grow and how to grow em best.

The problem with your solution is that it leaves the field to those who think that “it is easy”-- shudder.

I would agree with you that problems are “confusing” but they are not entirely intractable. Developing a worthwhile understanding does, however, require a sustained effort.

Approaching the problems of economics as if such problems are "simple and obvious " unfailingly generates solutions that are perceived as being novel only because those who have “invented” them know too little economic history to recognize that their “innovation” is a “re-inventing.” And, all too often it is a re-inventing of a square wheel.

Bill Williams

Unfortunately sometimes these solutions have widespread, but usually very temporary, appeal.

[Martin Taylor 2003.02.23.1551]

[Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.23)]

<Martin Taylor 2004.02.21.1151>

<What changes is the magnitude of the
transformation imposed by some element in the loop. Not only can (for
example) the gain be high or low, it can be zero or negative. My old
"Bomb in the Machine" dsicussion suggests the potential implications
for reorganization in the hierarchy when part of the environmental
feedback loop changes its sign.>

In a negative feedback control loop, an action would cause a
reduction in the difference between the reference and percevied
signals for the variable being controlled. Is that right?

In a positive feedback control loop, an action would cause an
increase in that difference. Is that right?

Yes.

I can see how "gain" might affect the magnitude of the increase or
decrease for the same action. Is that right? But, can gain
actually change the "sign" of the change when the action is the
same? Could you give an example?

There's a misunderstanding here. Imagine doing a tracking task, but
in the environmental connection the amount of cursor movement per
unit leftward movement of the controller (the control ratio) changes
from +1 unit to 0.5 unit, to zero, to -0.5 unit. What happens if the
control system doesn't change at all?

As the control ratio reduces, the output of the control system per
unit of physical error will increase, but when the sign of the
control ratio changes, the result is that the more output there is,
the worse the error gets (exponentially).

Real-life examples tend to be messier. Think of walking on a slightly
wet sidewalk. What you do to move forward is to apply a force
backward to the surface while your leg is extended forward. But
suppose, unknown to you, the wet patch has frozen (as is often the
case around here). Now your action actually has the effect of making
your foot go forward and your body to fall backward. You have to
change the gains of your lower-level control systems in order to
progress your body forward.

<However, in the case in point (hyperinflation), the
information-theoretic analysis suggests that the part of the loop
that changed its sign was the perceptual function.>

Don't understand how you would know that

You don't know that. What I said was that the information-theoretic
analysis syggests that such is the case.

<The perceptual function in question is one whose output signal
is the value of a good or service in units of money.>

Is a perceptual funtion different than the perceptual variable? If
so, please give a simple example.

The perceptual variable is the output of the perceptual function in
an elementary control unit.

<The more uncertain is the value of money, the more the seller will
require, in order to ensure that she will be able to use that money
at some future time to acquire a good or service of equivalent value
to the
one sold.>

I understand that and think I can accept that. But, isn't it also
likely that the seller will keep the product rather than exchange it
for money whose future value is uncertain? Barter instead of sell?

Not if the buyer is willing to offer money that has more value to the
seller than the vlalue of the thing sold. Remember that all
perceptions_ are now, even when they refer to an imagined future.

The key to any uncoerced transaction is that for the seller the money
or promise of future money is (now) worth more than the value of the
thing sold, whereas to the buyer the opposite is true.

<All inflation leads to some such uncertainty, but there are other
sources of uncertainty as well, in the value of the goods and
services themselves. These mask the effects of a small amount of
inflation; some inflation is required simply because the value of a
future good or service is less certain than the value of a current
one, regardless of the value of a unit of money.>

Well, I am not convinced this is a universal principle regardless of
the value of money (compared to some standard like gold)

That's not a standard. It's a good with a perceived value. If there's
a great cultural demand for gold ornaments, then its perceived value
goes up. If people stop thinking of gold as being useful or pretty,
and believe other people won't want to trade it for other goods and
services, its value goes down. That's quite indepedent of how much
money it costs to buy an ounce of the stuff. Think rather of how much
gold a barber would want in exchange for giving you a haircut.

now or in the future. It seems that regarding products like
computers, the historic evidence is that the value is quite certain
to fall with time (if the capabilites/features are the same).

The value does fall with time, but not because the money cost does.
It falls because more and more software comes out that won't run as
effectively on the old computer, or because Mr Jones next door has a
bigger and flashier one, which reduces the value of the one I have,
in my eyes.

<What happens when there is, for example, political uncertainty, is
that the future values of goods and services are less certain than in
times of political stability.>

And, one particular political situation would be war.

<Sellers therefore have to ask for more
money to cover the requirement that they will in future be able to
exchange that money for goods and services of similar value to the
ones sold now. That adds to the inflation, which increases the
uncertainty of the future value of money.>

I guess that is an example of positive feedback? But, in the
hyperinflation case, it would seem that it is not "uncertainty" that
is the driving force but strong belief that the value of the money
will be less in the future?

True, but where did that come from in the first place? You don't
switch from believeing that a dollar now will be worth pretty close
to a dollar next year to believing that you'd better get rid of your
dollar at lunch break, becasue tomorrow nobody will give you a
haircut for less than 100 of them. There's an underlying dynamic.

Even if you knew absolutely that what cost $1 now would cost $100 in
a year, it wouldn't be a big issue, since you could address what you
wanted to pay according to when the money would be available and when
you would want to use it. It's only because you don't know whether
this year's dollar will be worth $10 or $1000 next year or next week
that you have to ask ever increasing ratios above what "ought to be"
today's prices.

<There comes a point at which the uncertainty caused by higher
inflation tips the environmental-feedback-through-perceptual-function
part of the loop into a state where the whole system goes into a
state of positive feedback.>

Here, you are losing me with the "whole system" versus the value of
money variable?

Value of money is one variable in the complex of loops. If you want
to look at it as a microstructured system, each person has a
different and time-dependent notion of the value of money in terms of
the various goods and services that he might want or have available.
But it's very hard to deal with such a complex microstructure, so one
averages it and considers just simple statistical parameters that
crudely describe what a whole lot of people are doing. It's rather
like saying "men are taller than women" and ignoring the fact that
the reverse is true in a lot of couples.

So, when I say "whole system", I mean that some people have enough
uncertainty that for them the future value of money is declining
rapidly enough that it's hard to find an acceptable price for things.
And those people are numerous enough that the effect of the people
for whom this is not true cannot sustain a reasonably controlled
market price for things.

<The future values of goods and services
become more uncertain because of the induced political instability,
and the future match of money to goods and services becomes more
uncertain because of the inflation itself.

Structurally, nothing changed, but the system behaviour changed mightily.>

The system changed from negative to postitve? Or, is it fair to say
the system changed from being self regulated to unregulated?

No, the latter is not correct. An "unregulated" system changes in
response to external disturbances only. Typically, the variable in
question describes a random walk. We are talking about a change from
negative to positive feedback (which may have had an intermediate
moment of being unregulated, as I suggested in the trivial example
above).

>Martin, here is another question for you. Entropically, is a human

behavioral system also clearly not a closed system? If so, perhaps
you (or Bill Powers) could try again to distinguish how using closed
loops can be expected to be an accurate model for an open system.

<Correct, it's not a closed system.>

So, what does Rick not understand when he says,

<People get energy by eating, and
they eliminate waste products. What is not shown in the functional
diagram of the elementary control loop is the energy source,
particularly for the output function. Usually, that's not a problem,
but it does relate to issues of intrinsic variables and
reorganization.>

I said it, not Rick.

I would like you to expound more on this if you could. If I surmise
correctly, it would be like saying when my foot is broken, I have to
reorganize how I get to the refrigerator to survive? My normal
actions can't reduce the blood sugar error.

No, I didn't mean anything like that at all. What I meant was that
for most purposes we don't have to consider the energy source and
sink when we analyze the interactions of control systems, but we
ought to keep in mind that they necessarily exist, because sometimes
that fact is critical.

What a control system does, entropically, is the same as a
refrigerator system (since you mentioned one). It exchanges the low
entropy, which it gets from its energy source, into the controlled
environmental variable (the CEV, in terms that we used to use
commonly on CSGnet), and releases the high entropy that it gets in
the control porcess into its energy sink. But that's not something we
ordinarily have to worry about.

But, now you are heading into an area that HPCT has always left me
unsatisfied. Our bodies internal chemistry/biology control systems
seem to affect our behavior just as much as any comparison of neural
perceptions. Does this make any sense to you?

Yes, and it's what was bugging Marc Abrams not so long ago. It's
obviously true, but it is not clear to me whether that truth is any
more importatn to HPCT than in the consideration that a low-entropy
source and a high-entropy sink must exist. At least a part of the
internal chemistry/biology is there to enable that entropy conversion.

I'm sure there's lots more to it than that, and it ought to be
studied. But in itself, it doesn't say anything about the validity of
the HPCT structure. Quite reasonably, one could argue that the
control systems that form part of the biological stuff fit within the
same hierarchy. One doesn't want to get too stuck on the literality
of "neural" as equivalent to fixed wires. At higher levels of teh
structure (and even at lower levels, too) some of the communication
among elementary control units might well not be through physical
neurons.

I similarly believe we have internal processes that create new
reference signals without any inability to control and reorganize
having occurred. Like aging. Actually, I think Bill has revised
his position on when and how new reference variables or levels can
come into being even if no previously defined "reorganization"
occurs.

I'm not going to touch this one. I'm not convinced, for example, that
"Like aging" fits with the sentence that precedes it. But it's an
entirely different kind of issue, and one that requires a lot of
analysis and possibly experiment.

<I think the need to consider this kind of issue is more important in
discussions of economics, because energy resource limitation is often
a key issue--as it can be for human individual control when the food
supply is inadeqate. But discussions of control theory usually are
not concerned with the energy-limited situation in individual
control, so it doesn't matter in the individual context.>

I agree and it is part of the reason that a theory that a producer
produces to a reference level of output set by consumer demand is
not necessarily correct. So, how could you assume that as a
fundamental element of a model to explain what really happens in our
economy?

I wouldn't.

Investing for future revenue seems like an open system to me and I
suspect my Merrill Lynch broker would agree that there is no
self-regulated amount of investment or profit?

Do you invest without some hope or intention that at some future time
you will be able to use the investment for more value than you could
now?

I'll leave it to the experts and loop modelers to find some
intelligble answers about economies ane what makes them grow and how
to grow em best.

The trouble with "intelligible answers" is that they are seductive.
The logic sounds great, until you check the axioms and the logical
steps agianst what passes for the reality that the logic is supposed
to describe.

I include my own, by the way.

Martin

From[Bill Willilams 24 February 2004 3:40 PM CST]

In commenting on Martin Taylor's discussion of questions raised by Kenny, I
first of all want to indicate my agreement with most of what Martin has to
say. And, having expressed my agreement, I wish my disagreements to be taken
as exceptions in a larger context of agreement.

[Martin Taylor 2003.02.23.1551]

>[Kenny Kitzke (2004.02.23)]
>
><Martin Taylor 2004.02.21.1151>

In the discussion between Kenny and Martin, Kenny says,

>
>Well, I am not convinced this is a universal principle regardless of
>the value of money (compared to some standard like gold)

And, Martin makes the comment that,

That's not a standard. It's a good with a perceived value.

However, the referent in the discussion is undergoing a shift. Kenny
says "standard" and Martin says, it isn't a "standard." Rather Martin
says that gold is a "good. " More property, gold is a "commodity."
But, the economic lexicon is an eclectic mix of market argot, finacial
page windbags, and academic fussbudgets. The terms "goods" and
"comodities" are often used as refering to the same sort of thing
, but they aren't. And, doing so generates further confusions.

Take the case which occurs further on in which Martin considers a
situation in which as he says

"the food supply is inadeqate...." If food is a good, then more of it can
only be better. But, there is a growing evidence that a major problem in
the health/life style of US citizens is too much consuming of food. Or,
too little exercise. If, as I say again food is a good, then as some
orthodox
theorists claim, more is always better. ( I am sure this sounds strange, but
this claim is a part of what is routinely taught to students in introductory
economics classes. ) If however food is a commodity, then it
becomes possible to consider whether too much of it is being consumed.

There is a sense in which, if you understand how current flows in a wire, or
cable of wires then you know something useful about a very complex subject.
In the same way, if you recognize some of the different ways that the terms
value, good, commodity, standard etc have been used, then you are in a
better position to sort out the question of why economics can appear so
confusing.

Or, alternatively, you can decided as Rick and Bill Powers have that
economists
have been engaged in a conspiracy to "withhold information" and attempt from
bare ground to reconstruct the whole thing as if they say, "it is easy."

[Martin Taylor 2004.02.24.1751]

From[Bill Willilams 24 February 2004 3:40 PM CST]
In the discussion between Kenny and Martin, Kenny says,

>
>Well, I am not convinced this is a universal principle regardless of
>the value of money (compared to some standard like gold)

And, Martin makes the comment that,

That's not a standard. It's a good with a perceived value.

However, the referent in the discussion is undergoing a shift. Kenny
says "standard" and Martin says, it isn't a "standard." Rather Martin
says that gold is a "good. " More property, gold is a "commodity."

That's a useful word. I've been searching my mind for the right word
for this concept. I don't know why "commodity stayed underground,
unless it is the case that "good" words evade the senile mind :slight_smile:

I'll try to remember, and to use it in future discussions of this kind.

There is a sense in which, if you understand how current flows in a wire, or
cable of wires then you know something useful about a very complex subject.
In the same way, if you recognize some of the different ways that the terms
value, good, commodity, standard etc have been used, then you are in a
better position to sort out the question of why economics can appear so
confusing.

I'm sure that's right. But it's hard to get the information that
permits that kind of recognition. I know that when I actually used to
build circuits from discrete components, I would have objected to
someone describing a capacitor as a resistor because they both were
small cylinders with coloured bands. But it would have taken a bit of
learning for a person unschooled in electronics to know why it was an
important difference.

What was wrong with Kenny's and my use of "standard", and were they
in fact different?

Taking the other side, now, as Devil's Advocate (I rather like the
Devil, in some ways--he's really a throwback to the time of conflict
between cultures 5000 years ago). If one is trying to develop a new
basis for--to be specific--economics, one more or less has to use
words that have "official" meanings, but to use them in variant ways.
It's almoust guaranteed to cause confusion. The situation is rather
like the use of "perception" in PCT. It isn't what anyone unschooled
in PCT thinks of as perception, but it's the best word that has been
found to describe a variable central to PCT.

Martin

From[Bill Williams 24 February 2004 11:45 PM CST]

[Martin Taylor 2004.02.24.1751]

>From[Bill Willilams 24 February 2004 3:40 PM CST]
>In the discussion between Kenny and Martin, Kenny says,
>> >
>> >Well, I am not convinced this is a universal principle regardless of
>> >the value of money (compared to some standard like gold)
>
>And, Martin makes the comment that,
>>
>> That's not a standard. It's a good with a perceived value.
>
>However, the referent in the discussion is undergoing a shift. Kenny
>says "standard" and Martin says, it isn't a "standard." Rather Martin
>says that gold is a "good. " More property, gold is a "commodity."

That's a useful word. I've been searching my mind for the right word
for this concept. I don't know why "commodity stayed underground,
unless it is the case that "good" words evade the senile mind :slight_smile:

I'll try to remember, and to use it in future discussions of this kind.

Unfortunately "good words" also evade the minds of many economists,
and they misuse and confuse terms such as "good" and "commodities."
In the classroom it is possible to "evade" such difficulties and declare,
"When this door closes words mean what I say, and nothing but what I
say." When the discussion is being held in the great outdoors, and
people are running about naked, then it is dificult to hold people to a
consistent lexicon-- supposing, contrary to fact, that an adaquate one
in fact existed. So, having as I see resolved to endure my being a
bit snoty in good spirits, remember I condecend to everyone impartially.
And, the toll extracted-- the running naked in the forest is in part a
punishment for an impure malicious mean-spirited heart.

>There is a sense in which, if you understand how current flows in a wire,

or

>cable of wires then you know something useful about a very complex

subject.

>In the same way, if you recognize some of the different ways that the

terms

>value, good, commodity, standard etc have been used, then you are in a
>better position to sort out the question of why economics can appear so
>confusing.

I'm sure that's right. But it's hard to get the information that
permits that kind of recognition. I know that when I actually used to
build circuits from discrete components, I would have objected to
someone describing a capacitor as a resistor because they both were
small cylinders with coloured bands. But it would have taken a bit of
learning for a person unschooled in electronics to know why it was an
important difference.

As a matter of fact, I experienced this confusion about electronic parts.
At first they all looked alike. And, I could not wire a 555 timer, which is
about as simple as things get. Lots of parts went up in smoke-- at least
at first.

What was wrong with Kenny's and my use of "standard", and were they
in fact different?

Well there is a long history of "the gold standard." Unfortunately, even if
I wanted to I couldn't tell it to you-- because I don't know much about it.
Like when it began. But, what it involved was a decision by the UK to
turn gold into an official money. This ended finally in the 1970's or so
when
gold was official discarded as "money." Gold wasn't a very good money,
sometimes people found and mined quite a bit of it, and this had
unfortunate effects, like when the Spanish found lots of gold in South
America. It was other peoples gold, but no matter-- at least to the
Spanish. Like I say a long a facinating history-- which I know only bits a
pieces. And, some principles-- more or less.

I might have been wrong but it seemed to me that when you were talking
about money and Kenny was talking about standard it was likely that
you had different things or processes in mind. Sort of like the confusion
about open and closed loop meaning different things-- if I understand
that confusion. It was a confusion, wasn't it?

Taking the other side, now, as Devil's Advocate (I rather like the
Devil, in some ways--he's really a throwback to the time of conflict
between cultures 5000 years ago). If one is trying to develop a new
basis for--to be specific--economics, one more or less has to use
words that have "official" meanings, but to use them in variant ways.

But, of course. And, here is the danger. When the concepts are
changing what happens to the words. And, who is going to define
them. Well, obviously who ever is able to tell the most complelling
story. Not, neccesarily the most consistent story, though consistency
may help, but the most powerful story. Economics is really about
drama. There is the case of a guy at Harvard Joe Schumpeter. He
wrote a book about how to solve the problem of a depression. Sadly
his book came out just after Keynes' _General Theory_. When
peole got around to reading Joe's book they did so by translating it
into what Keynes would have said, if he was a foolish as Joe. When
they did this Joe (this was long before the concept of I see you have
choosen became popular) became quite angry-- foaming fury sort
of thing. And, you know, I have never read Joe's book. I ought to,
I am sure that I'd get a laugh out it.

It's almoust guaranteed to cause confusion.

You can drop the "almoust." By any chance are you dilexic too? I
exagerate my difficulty when I think about it and sometimes intensionally
mis-spell sstuff because I have noticed that it drives Powers nuts.
One thing no one has been able to control is my spelling. Besides not
being a gentleman it is probably my greatest fault.

The situation is rather

like the use of "perception" in PCT. It isn't what anyone unschooled
in PCT thinks of as perception, but it's the best word that has been
found to describe a variable central to PCT.

Every child should receive an introduction to Op-Amps. Once they understood
Op-Amps then a control theory conception of behavior would appear to be
entirely a matter of common sense. Children could easily learn this stuff.
Like
children can learn languages, for adults it is really tough. Childhood is
really
wasted on children.

Bill Williams

[From Bjorn Simonsen(2000.02.25,13:45
EuST)]

From[Bill Williams 22 February 2004 4:00
PM CST]

Bjorn,

As long as I am going to describe the
Veblen/Duessenberry effect

program I might as well post the
description and narrative to the

CSGnet.

Thank you. I will look at it.

The structure of the model is really
simple. If you want to send

me your surface mail address I’ll send
you Execute code so you can

see the program run.

I will do that after I have looked at [Bill
Williams 22 February 2004 4:00 PM CST].

bjorn