[From Bryan Thalhammer (2002.03.30.1345 CST)]
Kenny et al.,
Let me get this straight. Religious/political discussion on the net should
probably be in terms of control of perception. The events of the last
months should not restrict CSGnet members from discussing how religous and
political perceptual control have "icked up" the world situation. The
recent actions by terrorists and Zionists have lessened the number of
minutes on the "Doomsday Clock" before midnight, lessening our ability to
live in a safe world. Because of these events, we may be Mother Earth's
worst enemy, since the asteroid that smeared Her ecosystems 65 mya.
IMHO, Rick *does* suggest how perceptual control creates both strife and
conflict in a social environment, in this case, the world situation. His
example of the confusion of holiness and evilness shows how perceptual
control of CVs can seem so tragically ironic. This is quite acceptable on
CSGnet, since it deals with the issues of how perceptual control results in
reorganization or a dissolution of quite a few living control systems
(learn or die/cause the death of others, I guess).
[From Rick Marken (2002.03.29.1445)]
Does no one else see the tragic irony of the recent terrorist attacks on
Jews as they were busy celebrating the terrorist attacks (in the form of
the 10 plagues) on Egyptians? For what is Passover but the celebration
of God's use of terrorism (the massacre of innocents such as the
Egyptian first born) to convince an oppressor to "let my people go"?
I'd say the odds of anyone figuring out how to solve this conflict are
somewhere between zero and zero.
Now Rick may not have come out and stated this in PCT jargon this time, but
I can't believe that a PCT subtext/interp is not far below the email text.
The statement "God's use of terrorism" IMHO seems to reflect the irony of
the situation of people controlling for solemn religous events which
represent really nothing more than incidents of people treating other
living control systems as rocks in a field or undesirable diseases. I can
envision the statement, "I see you have chosen to disobey god. So now,
courtesy of My god, I send you to your death." HMmmmm.... No loving God
could ever countenance that kind of evilness. Someone was cooking the
books...
What you mention below about "bring[ing] onto this forum issues such as
religion, politics, etc.," is not the same, tho. I DO object to
proselytizing, as in "The Bible says..." or "God is revealed" or "lessons
from God" (quotes from your note). So stating a belief based in the bible
as proof for some scientific theory just doesn't cut it, Kenny. God does
not choose to kill people, people choose to kill people, buddy. In fact,
what scares me the most about religious fundamentalists (Moslem as well as
Christian literalists) the notion that God "uses His power to terrorize and
strike fear into the hearts of evil doers" scares me the most about
religious fundamentalists." That they can call into action their tribal
god to take revenge, what antique tripe!
The above sanctimonious expression of either tribal or religious
righteousness is nothing more than living control systems controlling their
perceptual environment by means of varied social actions. What is tragic
irony is the way they redefine their evilness as good, simply because they
believe their god is on their side (Gott mit uns!). People can also do
this in a collective fashion, disrupting the social environment(s) of
anyone else using the same forums or geographical locations. Clark McPhail
discussed this in his book, The Myth of the Madding Crowd. Neither is
right in an arms race, whether it be with nukes, tanks, dynamite strapped
around one's person, or even words. The only "right" behavior is to
realize the impending result of the positive feedback loop, and control for
a reduction in one's arms race perception(s).
I was explaining the Middle East crisis to members of my family this past
week. "How could this be happening," they asked? I wanted them to see that
the arms race of revenge and oneupmanship may have started as early as the
alledged conquering of Canaan by Joshua, who was said to direct the
devastation of major Canaanite settlements (Jericho, etc.), so the
wandering Israelites could live in the "promised land." What does that
remind you of....? In historical times, there are chronicles of horrific
invasions, devastations, or conceptual/theological re-definitions of "The
Holy Land" by Israelites, Judeans, Samaritans, Greeks, Syrians, Romans,
Trinitarians, Arians, Moslems, Crusaders, Ottoman Turks, the League of
Nations, Franco-British conquerers, Zionists, Shiite Moslems, Palestinians,
the UN, and even Christian Apocalyptic Fundamentalists.
And in each case, the respective leaders saw nothing wrong in using the
sword, pen, and/or book as a justification for claiming/cleansing that land
to fulfill their own religious destiny! [Religion, who needs it! "God!
Save me from your followers, they're killin' me!"] Y'know, it seems to me
that the Israelites were no better than the Assyrians or Babylonians, and
the Israelis certainly no different in their strategy (except by magnitude)
than Hitler's final solution or Milosevic's ethnic cleansing in their
treatment of the people of the West Bank. Consider the eviction of
Palestinians from their sometimes hundreds of years old family compounds in
Jerusalem and other centuries-old Palestinian communities, and the
ghetto-like restriction of Palestinians. Of course, it goes both ways,
that Israelis want to be free of the threat of terrorism. But consider the
following:
In each tide of invasion, one may envision nothing more than a cycle of a
positive feedback loop, where one action begets a slightly higher, more
ruthless response (ie. revenge). We know from cybernetic analyses that
this does NOT result in stability, but in an eventual chaotic disruption of
the entire [social] system. What is necessary is the application of
measures that resemble a negative feedback loop, or "stepping away, turning
the cheek, or replacing evil with good will." What Rick says above seems
to me a comment on this incredibly stupid history of tribe vs. tribe, book
vs. book, and (incredibly!) god-image vs. god-image. Indeed, there cannot
be many people of Islam who do not see that Jews and Christians in
Passover/Easter are celebrating the demise Non-Judeo-Christians' demise, if
only symbolically, but probably in actuality. Likewise, Judeo-Christians
seem to regard the Qur'an as a document proscribing death to infidels,
which may have been originally the case, although in recent times, it has
been reinterpreted by peaceful people as somewhat less than that.
But the *coup-de-gras* to this inhumane history is the religio-political
support Israel by many Evangelical Christians of the United States and
other countries tolerating their activities. The support is said to be due
to the belief of many Christians that the establishment of Israel is one of
many events that forsage the "last days" and that when all Jews return
there, Christ would return. I was told that by a so-called Christian down
the alley. He santimoniously told me he gave money for air fare or
settlement funds so that one or two more Jews could return to the "Holy
Land". The Conservative Christian Lobby influences US Middle East Policy,
of course... And one by one.... Phew!
The bible, qur'an, and any other so-called "holy books" are only proof that
someone wrote those words down. Their mere existence is no proof that they
are divinely inspired. Unless, as a deist, you would like to say that as
the entire universe is a creation of God-beyond-time, both good *and* bad,
everything, including the bible is a work of God.
So, Rick, I would concur, that with the social inertia of the positive
feedback loop, and with the fanatic beliefs that surround the geographical
area of Palestine and Jerusalem held by Jews, Moslems, and particularly
Christians, we stand to witness even greater tragedies than 9/11. I hate
saying this, but I have a gut-level feeling that since no one will step
back, as they have in Ireland and other conflicts, this problem of
RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM [he shouted] may result in the whole world's
undoing!
Thank you both.
Bryan
···
[From Kenny Kitzke (2002.03.30)]
<Rick Marken (2002.03.29.1445)>
<Does no one else see the tragic irony of the recent terrorist attacks on
Jews as they were busy celebrating the terrorist attacks (in the form of
the 10 plagues) on Egyptians?>
Yes, I see irony and lessons from God on how men should live without
_conflict_.
<For what is Passover but the celebration of God's use of terrorism (the
massacre of innocents such as the Egyptian first born) to convince an
oppressor to "let my people go"?>
God is revealed as one who uses His power to terrorize and strike fear into
the hearts of evil doers. 
<I'd say the odds of anyone figuring out how to solve this conflict are
somewhere between zero and zero.>
While you say that, the Bible says otherwise.
Once again, Rick, you bring onto this forum issues such as religion,
politics, etc., to seemingly try to make points about PCT issues such as
"conflict." I don't mind, but others on this forum do. And, in so doing, it
seems that an untended consequence (I assume) is to create conflict in this
forum.
If you want to discuss this "tragic irony" which you perceive, I'll be happy
to do so privately.
Kenny
