Conversation Analysis (CA)

[From Rick Marken (980402.0800)]

Bruce Gregory (980402.0541 EST) --

I don't think its a good idea to push them [the results of
tracking studies] uncritically to very complex perceptions.

Actually, I've also done studies where subjects track rather
complex perceptions (sequences, as in the "Hierarchy of Perception
and Control" experiment at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/ ControlDemo/HP.html

and even programs). In all cases, the control model, which sees
perceptions as signals, works just fine; no "calling forth" involved
at all.

I can't seen any reason, from my understanding of PCT, why a
perception could not consist of input from the Amygdala even
those this is not the case in a typical tracking experiment.

Ah, this is what I thought you might be getting at. Perceptions
(like the perception of a child being shot or of a judge finally
making a reasonable decision) have an affective component. There
is emotion involved when we fail to control a perception (as
when we see a child being shot on screen, a perception that
deviates by miles from our reference for what we should be
perceiveing, and we can't do nothing about it) or when a perception
suddenly arrives at its reference state and we have done nothing
to make it happen. These emotions result from the sudden increase
or decrease in an error signal that results from the change in
the state of the perceptual variable. The perception of the
emotion is actually an uncontrolled (and uncontrollable) perception
that is quite _separate_ from the perception that is being controlled
(the perception of the treatment of children and the perception of
justice).

If you are looking for a rare species of thrush your reference
level for that perception will allow the perception to call you
forth.

This is an illusion, just like the illusion that consequences
"call forth" behavior. This is precisely the illusion that
PCT is trying to dispel. If you want to keep believing that this
is a "legitimate" way of looking at things (from the perspective
of the behaving system) then, I'm afraid, you have a very bad case
of Bruce Abbott disease; I hope it's not chronic.

I only object to the "just perceptions" part. Perceptions of
Mozart's music may be just perceptions, but they don't seem
that way to this LCS.

That's because they include an emotional component. When I
hear Mozart a lot of error signals suddenly go to zero. The
Mozart is just a state of many different perceptual variables
(style, melodiousness, fluidity, etc) that feel particularly
good (to you and me) because they match a lot of references.
Amazingly, the same perceptions have no emotional content at all
to many people. In some cases this may be because these people
are not able to perceive the musical variables we perceive. But
in many cases it is clear that people are perceiving the same
musical dimensions that I am perceiving (I deduce this based on
discussions with these people, who are often musically sophisticated).
These people just don't have the same references I have for these
musical dimensions. What I feel when I listen to Mozart is what
two of my best friends feel when they listen to Frank Zappa (who
I like also, just not like Mozart). My friends and I probably
perceive the world in just about the same way; we just have
different references for those perceptual variables.

Solving control problems is mainly, I think, a matter of changing
the perceptions you control.

My example of ways to solve the "Cost of Conflict" problem shows
that this is clearly not the case. It's true that one way to solve
control problems is to change the perceptions one controls (which
includes a change in goals); but it is also possible to solve
problems by changing goals for perceptions you are already
controlling. Thus, the most general approach to control problem
solution is to _change goals_, not to change perceptions.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Tim Carey (980403.0520)]

[From Rick Marken (980401.2230)]

Hi Rick,

Solving control problems is mainly, I think, a matter of changing
your goals regarding the perceptions you control.

I'm getting out of my league here a bit but I'm wondering whether your
statement above applies because our goals (references) are the only
independent variable we can effect. The other IV is the disturbance and we
can't effect it ... or we're not interested in effecting it, and if we
became interested in effecting it this would still essentially be a change
of goals (our goals would have changed from controlling for X to
controlling for "cancelling the disturbance" or something).

This is such a cool aspect of the model and one of the things that I really
get fired up about with MOL. Some of the confusion I've encountered over
here is that people use the word "perception" when what they are talking
about is their reference.

Thanks for another great post,

Cheers,

Tim

[From Rick Marken (980402.1330)]

Me:

Solving control problems is mainly, I think, a matter of changing
your goals regarding the perceptions you control.

Tim Carey (980403.0520) --

I'm getting out of my league here a bit but I'm wondering whether your
statement above applies because our goals (references) are the only
independent variable we can effect.

Sort of. Ultimately I am talking about a process that is external
to the control hierarchy itself -- the process of reorganization.
Reorganization is carried out (in theory) by a reorganization
system. I think the reorganization system is what you are trying
to get in touch with when you do the method of levels.

I think of the reorganization system as a "meta" control system
whose object is to control perceptual variables (like error signal
magnitudes) that are measures of the performance of the control
hierarchy itself. If you have played with my spreadsheet hierarchy
then you have played "reorganization system" when you tried to change
aspects of the control hierarchy to see what happens to its per-
formance. What you (qua reorganization system) can change about
the hierarchy is 1) how perceptions are computed -- ie. how the
world is perceived 2) what perceptions are controlled -- ie.
what is perceived and controlled and 3) which systems contribute
to the references for lower level systems -- ie. what is the goal.

Changes in any of these aspects of the spreadsheet can lead to
a significant improvement or deterioration in the performance of
the hierarchy. My guess (based on research, like the "Cost of
Conflict" experiment) is that people don't readily change _how_
they perceive. Once we have learned to perceive a point in X-Y
coordinates, say, then (I think) it's hard to learn to perceive it
in a new way. I believe, however, that people can and do change
_what_ perceptions they perceive and control. This is what happens
when you switch from controlling Y-Y position to controlling
diagonal movement. I think this can legitimately be called
"learning to perceive in a new way" and it certainly is a valid
approach to solving control problems. But doing this is equivalent
to making a level 2 system in the spreadsheet inactive and
another (which had been inactive) active. The reorganizaing system
had to change the control systems (goals and perceptions) that
were active at level 2. This involves more than seeing the world
in a new way (the way seen by the newly active control system); it
also involves a change in wants (goals) -- you have to give up
control of the old perception and start wanting to control the
new one. Finally, the reorganization system can change which
systems contribute to the reference for a lower level system; this
is equivalent to changing one's goal. This can be done by changing
_what_ higher level perceptions are and are not controlled. So
process 2) and 3) are actually the same thing (changing a goal)
viewed from different levels in the hierarchy.

The main point is that all this changing, whether it be of
goals or perceptions, is done by a system that is "outside"
the control hierarchy. When I talk about changing goals to
resolve conflict I am _not_ talking about the change in goals
that results from the hierarchical control process, where higher
level systems vary the goals of lower level systems as the
means of controlling their own perceptions. I am talking
about a change in the systems that set the goals for the lower
level system. This change is made (I think) by an agency external
to the control hierarchy -- the reorganization system (which
is basically what we call "consciousness").

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (980402.1640 EST)]

Rick Marken (980402.1330)

The main point is that all this changing, whether it be of
goals or perceptions, is done by a system that is "outside"
the control hierarchy. When I talk about changing goals to
resolve conflict I am _not_ talking about the change in goals
that results from the hierarchical control process, where higher
level systems vary the goals of lower level systems as the
means of controlling their own perceptions. I am talking
about a change in the systems that set the goals for the lower
level system. This change is made (I think) by an agency external
to the control hierarchy -- the reorganization system (which
is basically what we call "consciousness").

Aha. "Then a miracle happens..." No wonder I encounter such
resistence. This is the point where science disappears and the
wishing takes over. All these HPCT diagrams are window dressing.
The _real_ work is done by "I know not what..." And I thought I
was playing fast and loose...

The Evil Bruce

i.kurtzer (980402.2345TST)

[From Bruce Gregory (980402.1640 EST)]

Rick Marken (980402.1330)

The main point is that all this changing, whether it be of
goals or perceptions, is done by a system that is "outside"
the control hierarchy. When I talk about changing goals to
resolve conflict I am _not_ talking about the change in goals
that results from the hierarchical control process, where higher
level systems vary the goals of lower level systems as the
means of controlling their own perceptions. I am talking
about a change in the systems that set the goals for the lower
level system. This change is made (I think) by an agency external
to the control hierarchy -- the reorganization system (which
is basically what we call "consciousness").

Aha. "Then a miracle happens..." No wonder I encounter such
resistence. This is the point where science disappears and the
wishing takes over. All these HPCT diagrams are window dressing.
The _real_ work is done by "I know not what..." And I thought I
was playing fast and loose...

We just do not know yet. Rick is loosely conjecturing,. I know he would not
put money on it cause it has as yet no experimental teeth.
Please correct if I'm misrepresenting, Rick.
IMO
The real work is being done by _experimenting_ , not by coming up with
ready-made answers. Only by exploring the permutations of PCT within the
confines of a clear testing procedure and after _much_ accumulation of
facts---real facts that is, not the functional analysis crap--will we get
anywhere beyond "That's Nice" stories.. Who cares what anyone says about where
consciousness fits in just yet. We are zip-zero-nada-near enough to ask this
in any _systematic_ way. We have anecdotes about "effort" and "attention", but
so far that's it.

i.

{From Bruce Gregory (980405.1456 EDT)]

i.kurtzer (980402.2345TST)

The real work is being done by _experimenting_ , not by coming up with
ready-made answers. Only by exploring the permutations of PCT within the
confines of a clear testing procedure and after _much_ accumulation of
facts---real facts that is, not the functional analysis crap--will we get
anywhere beyond "That's Nice" stories.. Who cares what anyone says about

where

consciousness fits in just yet. We are zip-zero-nada-near enough to ask

this

in any _systematic_ way. We have anecdotes about "effort" and "attention",

but

so far that's it.

In my experience, science grows out of the tension between experimenters,
who rightfully say that more data is needed, and the theorists who use every
observation as an excuse to develop a new worldview. As someone noted, an
experimenter is someone whose work is believed by everyone but himself,
while a theorist is someone whose work is believed by no one but himself...

Bruce