From Model to Practice

[From Rick Marken (991211.0910)]

Wow. What a bunch of great posts this morning! They all deserve
acknowledgement and I will try to get to all of them. But let
me start with Bruce Nevin (991210.2333 EST), who says:

I don't see how they could go from model to practice, since
no models have been made and there was no PCT-compatible data
to model. Or is there some other meaning of "model" that I
don't understand?

This is an extremely important question. I think we definitely
_do_ have models that can be used to evaluate possible practices.
The model described in B:CP, he models of tracking, the little
man, the crowd, the baseball fielder, the spreadsheet hierarchy,
etc. These are not detailed models of the exact, "real life"
situations that are delt with by practitioners. But these models
can be used as heuristic guides. For example, the spreadsheet
model shows the problems that will result from trying to get people
to "commit" to a partcular perceptual goal (by the way, Fred
Nickols'(991211.1035 EST) analysis of this problem is superb). It
can also be used to show what is likely to happen if you try to
force a person to keep a perception in some state. So the models
we have can certainly be used to evaluate certain possible
consequences of various pactices.

While it's true that models like the spreadsheet are abstract
and leave out details, I believe that very high fidelity version
of these models would give the same answers. That is, I am sure
that a detailed model of human interaction -- one that walks,
talks and crawls on its belly like a reptile -- will still show
at forcing people to control an arbitrarily selected perception
is likely to destroy that person's ability to control other
perceptions. What's important about the model (with respect to
practive) is seeing how hierarchical control of input _works_.

So I think the models we have in PCT provide an excellent
framework for evaluating and developing approaches to various
practices. Fred Nickols (991211.1035 EST) gives an excellent
example of this in his suggestions about how the basic framework
of PCT might be applied to management practice.

Moreover, the models we have in PCT are far better developed
than other models (such as the reinforcement model) that
have been explicitly used as the basis for developing various
applications. Reinforcement theory, which says little more than
"positive coinsequences increase the strength of the behavior
that produce them" is used as the basis of many applications.
I think PCT, even in it's relatively rudimentary state, leads
to very different conclusions about things like how to deal
with disruptive kids than does reinforcement theory, cognitive
theory or whatever.

Also, I think it's important for people who claim that their
application is _based on_ PCT to be able to explain how they
got from PCT to their application. Otherwise, I'm afraid that
what we tend to get is PCT-speak being used to justify practices
that were developed on rather non-PCT-like conceptions of human
nature.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Rick Marken (991214.1530)]

Bruce Nevin (991214.1650 EST)--

"getting a child to keep a commitment" comes from the
understanding that the teacher cannot repress disruptions in
the classroom, each child must agree to control "distracting
from learning" at a high priority and with reasonable gain.
This understanding is supported by PCT.

So what you learn from PCT is that since a teacher cannot
"repress" disruptions in class, each child _must_ agree to
control for not distracting other kids from learning.

Thanks. I finally understand why RTP is perfectly consistent
with PCT.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Nevin (991214.2222 EST)]

The topic should really be "from theory to practice" since there is no
model of RTP, there is only the theory, PCT, and an application of it to
education, RTP.

Rick Marken (991214.1530)--

Bruce Nevin (991214.1650 EST)--

"getting a child to keep a commitment" comes from the
understanding that the teacher cannot repress disruptions in
the classroom, each child must agree to control "distracting
from learning" at a high priority and with reasonable gain.
This understanding is supported by PCT.

So what you learn from PCT is that since a teacher cannot
"repress" disruptions in class, each child _must_ agree to
control for not distracting other kids from learning.

Thanks. I finally understand why RTP is perfectly consistent
with PCT.

That was not my intent. Do you think I am that dull witted?

The teacher cannot repress disruptions. I mention this because it was
presumed to be the teacher's responsibility in other approaches, which are
contrasted with RTP in Tom's summary of the history of RTP.

The only way disruptions can go away is if each child agrees to control
"distracting from learning" at a high priority and with reasonable gain.

The teacher is not the only one who wants disruptions to go away. Recall
that almost all the time disruptions are not intended as such, they are
unintended side effects.

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 07:27 AM 12/14/1999 -0800, Richard Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (991214.2230)]

Bruce Nevin (991214.1650 EST)--

each child must agree to control "distracting from learning"
at a high priority and with reasonable gain. This understanding
is supported by PCT.

Me:

Thanks. I finally understand why RTP is perfectly consistent
with PCT.

Bruce Nevin (991214.2222 EST)--

That was not my intent.

Then why say that this understanding is supported by PCT?
I don't think PCT leads to the conclusion that anyone _must_
agree to anything.

The only way disruptions can go away is if each child
agrees to control "distracting from learning" at a high
priority and with reasonable gain.

Disruptions also go away when the disrupting child leaves
the room. So agreeing to control "distracting from learning"
is not the _only_ way disruptions can go away.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Gregory (991215.0636 EST)]

Rick Marken (991214.1530)

Thanks. I finally understand why RTP is perfectly consistent
with PCT.

It took you long enough.

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Gregory (991215.0651 EST)]

Rick Marken (991214.2230)]

I don't think PCT leads to the conclusion that anyone _must_
agree to anything.

Thank goodness. I thought PCT led to the conclusion that everyone must agree
with you. Needless, to say, I'm greatly relieved.

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (991215.1330)]

Bruce Nevin (991215.1143 EST) --

What I did not intend was that
> each child must agree
should mean
>that anyone _must_ agree to anything
in the sense of the teacher coercing or requiring such agreement.

Then what in the world _did_ you mean?

What I was trying to say was that if the child is controlling
as described, it has to be because the child has freely agreed
to do so, or else the process is not consistent with PCT principles.

If that's what you were trying to say then I still have no idea
what you were trying to say.

You said:

each child must agree to control "distracting from learning"
at a high priority and with reasonable gain. This understanding
is supported by PCT.

How can this mean anything other than: PCT supports the
notion that the child _will_ agree to stop distracting others.
How can you be sure that the child will agree to stop
distracting others unless you are controlling for what the
child will agree to? What you are saying here is that
understanding PCT supports coercion. I don't think it does.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Nevin (991215.1143 EST)]

Rick Marken (991214.2230)--

I'm sorry, Rick. You've been sarcastic so often I jumped to the conclusion that

Thanks. I finally understand why RTP is perfectly consistent with PCT

was a sarcastic statement with the exact opposite meaning. But I will now
take your statement literally.

What I did not intend was that

each child must agree

should mean

that anyone _must_ agree to anything

in the sense of the teacher coercing or requiring such agreement.

If I seem to be saying something so obviously stupid, please consider
whether my words might be ambiguous, and maybe you've picked the wrong meaning.

What I was trying to say was that if the child is controlling as described,
it has to be because the child has freely agreed to do so, or else the
process is not consistent with PCT principles.

I have a clue as to why I misunderstood you. Maybe my assumption that you
were being sarcastic had to do with the immediately preceding sentence in
your reply, which you omitted when you quoted yourself in your
(991214.2230) post. I have repaired this omission in the quoted message below.

Disruptions also go away when the disrupting child leaves
the room. So agreeing to control "distracting from learning"
is not the _only_ way disruptions can go away.

Yes, you are right, in any school some small number of distractions are
stopped by removing a student--the removal itself being a major disruption
in non-RTP schools. Reportedly, these are much fewer in successful RTP
schools than in other schools. You are right, I wasn't thinking of this
subset of distractions.

I was referring to distractions that are not ended by a student leaving the
classroom. In non-RTP schools, students may control perceptions like "being
quiet" and "being caught" to avoid threatened consequences, and some may
also do what we used to think of as "getting away with it" and what
pop-psych calls "risk-taking." Whatever perceptions are being controlled
there seem to me (in memory) to be directly related to the coercion by
threat of consequences. Reportedly, this sort of thing is much diminished
in RTP schools. It seems plausible that it has to do with students agreeing
with one another not to interfere with one another, and learning how. Do
you have an alternative explanation for this empirical observation?

  Bruce Nevin

Rick Marken (991214.2230)--

···

At 10:24 PM 12/14/1999 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:

Bruce Nevin (991214.1650 EST)--

each child must agree to control "distracting from learning"
at a high priority and with reasonable gain. This understanding
is supported by PCT.

Me:

So what you learn from PCT is that since a teacher cannot
"repress" disruptions in class, each child _must_ agree to <--+
control for not distracting other kids from learning. |
                                                             >
Thanks. I finally understand why RTP is perfectly consistent |
with PCT. |

                                                              >
Bruce Nevin (991214.2222 EST)-- |
                                                              >

That was not my intent. -------------------------------------+

Then why say that this understanding is supported by PCT?
I don't think PCT leads to the conclusion that anyone _must_
agree to anything.

The only way disruptions can go away is if each child
agrees to control "distracting from learning" at a high
priority and with reasonable gain.

Disruptions also go away when the disrupting child leaves
the room. So agreeing to control "distracting from learning"
is not the _only_ way disruptions can go away.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bruce Nevin (991215.2323 EST)]

Rick Marken (991215.1330) --

Bruce Nevin (991215.1143 EST) --

What I was trying to say was that if the child is controlling
as described, it has to be because the child has freely agreed
to do so, or else the process is not consistent with PCT principles.

If that's what you were trying to say then I still have no idea
what you were trying to say.

The question is: is the RTP process consistent with PCT principles?

Here's a PCT principle: Coercion is a bad idea because it leads to
undesired consequences, especially if your intention is to help children
learn to be responsible, capable adults. I take that to be a principle that
is derived from PCT.

If a child is being coerced in the RTP process, then the RTP process is not
consistent with that principle.

If a child has freely agreed to control "interference with other kids'
learning" then the child doing so is not being coerced to do so; and a
child being reminded of that agreement is not being coerced to do so; and a
child offered help in doing so after losing control of that variable twice
is not being coerced to do so, especially since the help is in a relatively
disturbance-free environment and in a way that has been previously
discussed, understood, agreed to, and that is not punitive either from the
teachers or from the other kids.

(The fact that the kid can't just up and walk away from school without
becoming subject to coercion sanctioned by the truancy laws is irrelevant.
I can't up and walk away from my family without legal sanctions. That does
not mean that my willing support of them and participation with them in
making a family is coerced. Just to clear that particular bit of confusion
out of the way.)

How do we know that the child is not being coerced, and therefore that the
RTP process is consistent with the above PCT principle? One requirement is
that the child previously agreed to control "distracting from learning" at
a high priority and with reasonable gain, agreed without coercion or
threat. Yeah, I don't want to be interfered with, and I really don't want
to interfere with others, when I do it's just an accident. The kids all
agree about that without coercion. That has to be true, or else the RTP
process is not consistent with the above PCT principle.

This understanding is supported by PCT.

I drew an arrow to indicate what the two words "this understanding" refer
to. This understanding -- the understanding that the child's uncoerced
agreement is a prerequisite for the RTP process to be consistent with PCT
principles -- is supported by PCT.

You said:

each child must agree to control "distracting from learning"
at a high priority and with reasonable gain. This understanding
is supported by PCT.

How can this mean anything other than: PCT supports the
notion that the child _will_ agree to stop distracting others.

My words obviously are not making sense to you. Try these words from Fred
Nickols (991215.1827 EST):

PCT offers many reasons why one should
attempt to negotiate commitment to reference levels instead of simply
imposing them.

Does that make more sense? He's talking about the same issue.

How can you be sure that the child will agree to stop
distracting others unless you are controlling for what the
child will agree to?

Obviously, no one involved in the process of reaching an agreement can be
sure that the others are controlling in agreement with them until the
agreement is reached. Interesting problem. Interesting process. No model of
it, that I know of. Have you thought about the process by which people
reach agreements? How do you think you would model it? This is a
face-to-face process, so most of it is non-verbal. It might be useful to
reread "A theory of play and fantasy" (G. Bateson, _Steps to an Ecology of
Mind_ 177-193).

What you are saying here is that
understanding PCT supports coercion.

No. I am saying that this understanding (the understanding that if the
child hasn't freely agreed to control non-interference then the process is
coercive) is supported by PCT.

I don't think it does.

No, nor do I think that an understanding of PCT supports coercion. I think
the opposite. I think that coercion is a bad idea because it leads to
undesired consequences, especially if your intention is to help children
learn to be responsible, capable adults. I take this to be a principle
derived from PCT. It is this principle that I think the RTP process is
consistent with. It is this principle that you have been saying the RTP
process is not consistent with. This resolves to an empirical question:
what are the observable, behavioral differences between someone who
complies by agreement and someone who is the victim of coercion? And we
won't know the answer until we look.

Bill suggested two observable differences. He predicted an increase in
resentment. He predicted that children in RTP schools must be "softened up"
by the process, in the sense of being more accepting than other children
when motives are attributed to them. Perhaps other predictions have been
made that I haven't recalled, or could be made about how victims of
coercion change as a consequence of coercion. If you are interested in the
truth of the matter, isn't the next step to look at data? Shouldn't be too
hard. There are many undoubted victims of coercion in this world, and there
are 40 or 50 RTP schools.

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 05:29 AM 12/15/1999 -0800, Richard Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (991216.1500)]

Unlike Bill, I don't think this is an aimless and boring
conversation. I think it's about a very interesting and
important (and, apparently, very misunderstood) topic: how
to _use_ the PCT model as a basis for practical applications.

Bruce Nevin (991215.2323 EST)--

Here's a PCT principle: Coercion is a bad idea because
it leads to undesired consequences, especially if your
intention is to help children learn to be responsible,
capable adults.

This is not a PCT principle. It's one of _your_ principles.
PCT doesn't say whether coercion is good or bad. (Think
about how good coercion sounds -- even to you -- when you are
talking about pulling your child out of traffic). PCT just
says what coercion _is_ (control of behavior by overwhelming
force or the credible threat thereof). Examples of PCT
principles are things like:

-- Behavior is the control of perceptual variables.

-- You can't tell what a control system is doing (controlling)
by simply looking at what it is doing (it's observable
actions and the consequences thereof).

-- Human beings are functionally organized as a hierarchy of
input control systems.

-- Two control systems controlling the same perceptual variable
relative to different reference specifications are in conflict;
each will end up exerting maximum possible force on the controlled
variable, canceling that proportion of the other system's effect
on that variable.

Some time ago, when I asked "What is it about the PCT model
that led the developers of RTP to decide on _any_ particular
practice?", you [Bruce Nevin (991214.1650 EST)] pointed me
to Tom Bourbon's description of the history of RTP (available
at http://brandtpublishing.com/books/revised2-ch19.html).
I'm afraid I didn't seen anything in there that directly
answered my question. That is, I saw nothing in there that
explained how the PCT model motivated the selection of any
particular RTP practice.

I think the best way to show how _I_ think the PCT model should
be used as the basis for practical applications is to show
how I would use it. What I will do is describe my own school
discipline program, also called (coincidentally) RTP (for Rick's
Teaching Program), and explain how the practices of that program
(which are surprisingly similar to those used in the Responsible
Thinking Program) are based on an understanding of PCT.

My RTP program is implemented in support of school administrators
who want fewer disruptions and more teaching going on in their
school. My RTP program assumes that all the people involved in the
school -- students, teachers, administrators and RTP consultant (Rick
himself) -- are hierarchical input control systems (PCT principle
# 1). Based on my understanding of PCT principle # 1 I know that
teachers and administrators are controlling for many perceptions,
including something like the perception of a school with a lot of
well behaved students actively learning what is presented in the
classroom. I know that the students are controlling for all kinds
of things too, some of which result in observable behaviors that
are an insuperable disturbance to some of the perceptions that are
being controlled by the teachers, administrators and other students.
I also know that the RTP consultant (me) accepted the job because
he is controlling for helping the teachers and administrators (and
the students who want to attend class in peace) get their
perceptions under control.

Existing data on school discipline problems suggest that less
than 2% of the students in any given school are controlling
perceptions that consistently result in observable behaviors
that are a disturbance to the perceptions that are being controlled
by teachers and administrators (see Bourbon, MSOB). So very few
students (at most 20 in a 1000 student school) are creating most
of the problems in the school. The RTP consultant can see that this
is happening largely because the teachers themselves are disrupting
the class through their well intentioned efforts to control the
rare disruptive kid. The teachers' disruption results from the
fact that, by trying to control the student's behavior, they are
placing themselves in conflict with the disruptive students (PCT
Principle # 2) _and_ becoming a disturbance to the students who
want to learn.

The first RTP practice derived from PCT is aimed, therefore,
at reducing the disruptions created by such conflicts. This is
done by teaching the teacher how to avoid getting into conflicts
with disruptive kids: _stop trying to control their behavior_. Of
course, the disruptive kid can't be allowed to continue disrupting
class so the teacher can't just ignore the disruptive student . So
the teacher also has to learn how to _gently_ remove disruptive kids
from the classroom. There is no formula for doing this. The teacher
must learn to control (vary her actions as necessary) for having
the kid leave the classroom _without "fighting back". There are
some tricks that the teacher can use, such as asking the kid
"what are you doing?" or "what are the rules?' This usually
diverts the kid from disrupting and can be the beginning of
gently encouraging the kid to leave the room.

The main thing is to make sure the teacher knows that s/he is not
supposed to try to get the kid to behave properly. The teacher's
only job is to teach the class and remove disruptive kids _gently_.

Of course, the administrators can't allow the kids to just leave
school when they disrupt class. So the RTP counselor tells the
administrator that s/he must provide an on-campus area for the kids
to go when they disrupt. This area should be a separate, staffed
classroom (since the administrators don't want the kids to be
unattended). So the RTP consultant has to make it clear to
administrators that, in order to implement Rick's Teaching Program,
they must invest in an extra on campus facility -- the RCR or Rick's
Chat Room -- that is staffed by a _high quality_ teacher trained
in counseling techniques (so we're talking at least a $50,000+ per
year staffed position). I would recommend one RCR per 500 students
(just in case all the disruptive kids on campus were active at the
same time; I wouldn't want the RCR teacher to have to handle more
than 10 students at a time).

Having a high quality teacher in the RCR is important for several
reasons. First, administrators want to get kids back into class.
PCT tells us that the disruptive kid is a hierarchical control
system (by PCT principle #1). The RTP consultant knows, therefore,
that we can't arbitrarily control the kid's behavior. If we want
to see the kid producing a particular result (like being in class
without distracting anyone) the kid himself has to adopt the goal
of producing this result on his own for his own reasons. A trained
counselor or therapist can use various techniques, such as the method
of levels, to facilitate this process. But, ultimately, if the kid
never wants to cooperate in class he will have to stay in the RCR.
So a skilled RCR consultant is needed to deal with the possibility
of "chronic offenders" (people who spend all their time in the RCR).
Also, a high quality person should staff the RCR so that going
to the RCR is not seen as a punishment by the kids who go there. If
the RCR is seen as relatively attractive, teachers will find it easier
to get disruptive students to the RCR without creating much disruption.

That's about it. The program works well because we make it _very_
simple for the teachers. The teacher only has to learn two things:
1) _never_ try to control kids in class and 2) _gently_ remove
disrupters. The teacher is not led to believe that she is "helping"
disruptive students in any way. She is not told that she is
"teaching kids to obey the rules" by asking "What's the rule? ";
or that she is "teaching kids to be responsible" by saying "I see
you have chosen to go to the RCR" " Teachers who are told this
sometimes come to believe it. So the teachers make the mistake of
thinking that it's _their_ job to teach the kids the rules and
how to be responsible; that is, they fall right back into the role
of controllers. This is likely to be one reason why the success
rate across schools for other, similar discipline programs is
only 50%.

To summarize, Rick's Teaching Program (RTP) is based on two basic
principles of PCT: 1) people are hierarchical control systems and
2) attempts at arbitrary control of hierarchical control systems
creates disruptive conflict. The goal of the program is disturbance
free classrooms (and playgrounds). We achieve this goal in the context
of the PCT principles by carrying out the following practices: 1)
teacher's don't try to control disruptive kids; teachers just
teach and remove disruptive kids gently (a form of control, true,
but one that doesn't require constant disruptive output from the
teacher) and 2) "problem" students are handled by the RCR specialist,
not the teacher.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bill Powers (991216.0816 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (991215.2323 EST)--

Here's a PCT principle: Coercion is a bad idea because it leads to
undesired consequences, especially if your intention is to help children
learn to be responsible, capable adults. I take that to be a principle that
is derived from PCT.

You're assuming that the consequence is undesired. Coercion, the use of
overwhelming physical force or the credible threat thereof to force someone
else to behave as you wish, has a number of expectable consequences, with
which we are all familiar by this time. If those are the consequences you
want, then coercion is the method of choice for you. If they are not, then
you will consider the consequences to be bad. PCT has nothing to say about
what you will consider to be good or bad consequences, other than to say
that you will probably consider your own error signals to be bad.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (991216.1726 EST)]

Thanks, Bill. Your comments set me thinking.

Bill Powers (991216.0816 MDT)--

Bruce Nevin (991215.2323 EST)--

Here's a PCT principle: Coercion is a bad idea because it leads to
undesired consequences, especially if your intention is to help children
learn to be responsible, capable adults. I take that to be a principle that
is derived from PCT.

You're assuming that the consequence is undesired.

There is a more neutral sense of "undesired." Consider the hypothesis that
the results of reorganization are unpredictable. Unpredicted results are
rarely the desired results. But I won't hide behind equivocation. Yes, I do
value autonomy as a good thing, I see it as an aim of education, and one
who is coerced is not autonomous.

There is what I regard as a very cynical view that subjecting a child to
coercion prepares her to be a responsible, capable adult in a world that is
characterized by mutual coercion. A father asked his 8-year-old son "do you
trust me?" "Sure, dad." The father then ground his cigarette out in the
back of his son's hand. "Don't trust anybody," he said. (True story. Not
mine.) And he sincerely believed that he was preparing his son for the
"real world." Illustrating (in my view) how the "naked truth" is often just
a lie with its clothes off. Consider carefully what was desired. And behind
that, what was desired.

Coercion, the use of
overwhelming physical force or the credible threat thereof to force someone
else to behave as you wish, has a number of expectable consequences, with
which we are all familiar by this time.

The only expectable consequence that has been shown in a PCT simulation is
that the outcome is determined by the coercer. You have proposed other
consequences (resentment, acceptance of attributions). These have not been
modelled, and their status in PCT is unclear. Did you have other
consequences in mind?

If those are the consequences you
want, then coercion is the method of choice for you. If they are not, then
you will consider the consequences to be bad. PCT has nothing to say about
what you will consider to be good or bad consequences, other than to say
that you will probably consider your own error signals to be bad.

Applying that abstract generalization to the matter at hand, it seems to me
(and I think to you also) that coercion is contradictory to the aim of
helping children to grow in competence as autonomous control systems, and
that it is a good method if your aim is to teach children to be amenable to
coercion, and to weed out those who cannot learn this. This probably could
be shown to follow from the contradiction between successful control and
control that is thwarted by irresistable disturbances. Probably this could
(eventually) be demonstrated by modelling coercion, if the behavior and
control structure of all parties is included in the model. Other
consequences of coercion would be identified, I think, in the course of
gathering data to be modelled.

PCT could speak to the desirability of consequences in the character of
social relations. Some societies are very much involved with coercion,
others little or none. I am referring to Ruth Benedict's proposed metric
called synergy, by which one could evaluate how beneficial a culture was
for all the people living in it and with each generation and each
transaction recreating it through time. (The reference is in the CSG
archives.) In PCT terms, this resolves to the degree to which intrinsic
variables are maintained at their references for all the members of the
society. The interaction between father and son that I quoted is
commonplace in a low-synergy culture. In cultures relatively low in synergy
such as those with which we are most familiar there is considerable
disparity in this regard across the population (the father and son were in
a low-synergy family and community--fights, thefts, beatings, rapes), and
for a given individual there may be considerable fluctuation through time
if she is e.g. the underdog in one transaction and the bully in the next.
Under this, I am assuming that the effects of being bullied include
disturbance to some intrinsic variables, but that of course remains to be
shown, and that is something we don't know a whole lot about yet.

  Bruce Nevin

···

At 08:21 AM 12/16/1999 -0700, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Rick Marken (991217.0810)]

Me:

That's about it. The program works well because ...

Bruce Gregory (991217.0557 EST) --

... all fantasies wo[r]k well.

Yes. That's true. I should have said "If the program works
well it would be because...". I'm pretty sure that the program
would work at least as well as the Responsible Thinking Program
(which only works in about 50% of the schools in which it is
implemented) since (as you can see) it is nearly identical to
that program.

What I was trying to show was how one might go from PCT model
to school practice in order to meet explicit requirements
(reference specifications in the minds of those implementing
the program) for the results of the program (that all kids remain
on campus during school hours, that there be a very low in-class
disturbance rate, that most of the time spent in classrooms is
spent on learning rather than "discipline", that kids always be
under adult supervision, etc). I think I described a program that
will meet those requirements if the participants in that program
are hierarchically organized input control systems.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (991217.0850)]

Bruce Gregory (991217.1051 EST)--

I'd like to know more about the procedure for removing
disruptive kids "gently."

As I said in my description of Rick's Teaching Program, "gentle
removal" is a _control_ process, not a "procedure". This is one
of the main differences between Rick's Teaching Program and the
Responsible Thinking Program. In the latter program, when
a student disrupts, the teacher is told to ask a few simple
questions, in a calm and respectful voice:

                "What are you doing?"
                "What is the rule?" or "Is that OK?"
                "What happens if you break the rule?"
                "Is that what you want to happen?"
                "What will happen the next time you disrupt?"

This is what I think of as a _procedure_ -- a fixed set of
outputs (questions) that are to be produced blindly (in this case,
no matter what the child does). When the child disrupts a second
time, the teaches is told to say:

                "I see you have chosen to go to the RTC room"

These procedure are filled with assumptions about what the
child will actually do. But, of course, the child does whatever
the child does. For example, when the child is told "I see you
have chosen to go to the RTC room" it is assumed that the child
will march off to the RTC. But, as you note, the child might
actually "just say no" or something even less polite. So your
question:

What if the student "just says no"?

applies to both Rick's Teaching Program and to the Responsible
Thinking Program. What _do_ you do about this?

Im Rick's Teaching Program, the answer is "whatever removes the
kid from the room in the fastest way with the least disruption".
Because "removing disruptive kids gently" is a control process
is my program, to carry out this process the teacher must learn
what to _perceive_ (the disruptive kid quickly out of room with the
least disruption) not what to _do_ (a fixed sequence of outputs).
The teacher must learn to alter what s/he's if s/he's not getting
the desired perception. Ultimately, if the teacher can find
no quick, non-disruptive way to get the kid out of the room, some
strong person simply picks the kid up and removes him. This should
rarely be necessary if teachers have learned to control for gentle
removal -- but it definitely might be necessary in some cases.

I am thinking of ways to demonstrate the control process that
I call "gentle removal". I think this is definitely a skill that
can be taught. Basically, it works when you know that you are in
a conflict with another control system and you know how to "lighten
up" your own outputs when the conflict starts creating a disturbance
for others. If you've ever had to remove a drunk from a public
place without creating a "scene" (don't ask;-)) then you have
been involved in the control process that I am calling "gentle
removal".

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (991217.0950)]

Bruce Gregory (no name, time or date stamp; getting upset?)

I suspect there would be a market for videotapes demonstrating
this skill ["gentle removal"] and how to practice it. It sounds
somewhat like judo (but without mats).

Then you didn't understand my description at all; there is no
physical violence involved in "gentle removal".

I suspect that some people would find it manipulative, and as you
point out, it is backed up by a threat of coercion.

Yes. Same as in the Responsible Thinking Program. The difference
is in the description of the approach. If you had read my post
[Rick Marken (991217.0850)] more carefully, you would see that
my approach is described as a _control_ process; the Responsible
Thinking Program approach is described as a fixed procedure. An
understanding of PCT would help you understand the (important)
difference.

The only way I know to compare it with RTP is to demonstrate
that this method works in at least half the schools where it
has been implemented.

Let me suggest another approach. Let's find out how disruptive
kids are actually removed in the Responsible Thinking Program.
The description of that program implies that disruptive kids
are always removed by saying "I see you have chosen to go to the
RTC room". This description of the Responsible Thinking Program
implies that kids never "just say no"; they just toddle off
to the RTC voluntarily when they hear the magic words "I see
you have chosen...". If the Responsible Thinking Program actually
works this way then that's the way it works. But such a result is
not expected on the basis of PCT; it is expected on the basis
of S-R theory (the "I see you have chosen" stimulus causes the
"toddle off to RTC" response). If we found this result, then
I think you would have to admit that it would be dishonest to
continue billing the Responsible Thinking Program as a
successful implementation of PCT; it would actually be a
successful implementation of S-R theory.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (991217.0557 EST)]

Rick Marken (991216.1500)

That's about it. The program works well because ...

... all fantasies wok well.

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Gregory (991217.0607 EST)]

Rick Marken (991216.1500)

That's about it. The program works well because...

...all fantasies work well

I apologise for omitting the PCT explanation. In the imagination mode, there
are no disturbances. As long as Rick is never called upon to implement his
program in the real world, it will contine to work flawlessly. A test might
reveal some problems. But why look for trouble?

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (991217.1120)]

Bruce Gregory (991217.1300 EST)--

Just because you say that the procedure used in RTP does not
involves successful control does not make it so.

Actually, I didn't say this.

What I said that the Responsible Thinking Program procedure for
removing disruptive students is _described_ in the literature as
an S-R procedure. The procedure described is basically a catechism
that ends, on the second disruption, with "I see you have chosen..."

My suggestion [Rick Marken (991217.0950)] was to see what Responsible
Thinking Progam teachers _actually_ do to remove disruptive kids
from class without disrupting the class themselves. My guess is
that all teachers do this somewhat differently but that those
who are good at it do something like the "gentle removal" control
process described in Rick's Teaching Program.

By the way, you've been so busy sniping at me that you forgot to
answer your own question:

What if the student "just says no"?

I presume my answer [Rick Marken (991217.0850)] was wrong. What
is the Responsible Thinking Program's answer? What does the
Responsible Thinking Program say you do when the student "just
says no"?

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Rick Marken (991217.1540)]

Me:

By the way, you've been so busy sniping at me

Bruce Gregory (991217.1438 EST) --

It's difficult for me to know what is bothering you
and Bill. Which statements of mine qualify as "sniping"?

You follow this question with a good example of what I think
of as "sniping". In response to my observation that you
forgot to answer your own question about "What if the student
"just says no"?" you say:

I forgot to answer my own question? Is this some sort
of PCT process that I fail to understand?

Your question -- "What if the student "just says no"?" -- was
asked as a challenge to my description of "gentle removal" of
disruptive students. After asking this question you said:

Since the students will quickly discover that the teacher is
controlling for behaving "gently" it is not clear that all sorts
of counter control games would not emerge. Of course you have
no data, so I guess the question is unfair. This issue demonstrates
why the imagination mode is so popular.

So you've managed to answer for me, saying that "all sorts of
counter control games" might emerge but that there is no data
so I don't have to bother answering. Of course, you ignore
the fact that there is also no data to support your claim that
"the students will quickly discover that the teacher is controlling
for behaving gently" -- the claim that leads to your dismissal of
my discussion of "gentle removal" as a control process.

But the "snipiest" thing about this is that, by never answering
your own question, you give the impression that the Responsible
Thinking Process provides an answer -- or, at least, an answer
different from mine. This is sniping at it's most cowardly. You
take potshots at me (asking questions like "What if the student
"just says no"?) and then duck back down into your foxhole,
denying that you ever took a shot.

There is nothing wrong with your question, per se. Indeed, it's
a very good question. And I think I gave it a good answer. If my
answer was off the mark (from your perspective) then why not
tell me how _you_ would answer the question? Then I could see
the problem.

So, how about it? Try to overcome your hatred. My answer to
your question "What if the student "just says no"?" is in
[Rick Marken (991217.0850)]. What is your answer to that
question? I really would like to know.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (991217.1051 EST)]

Rick Marken (991216.1500

To summarize, Rick's Teaching Program (RTP) is based on two basic
principles of PCT: 1) people are hierarchical control systems and
2) attempts at arbitrary control of hierarchical control systems
creates disruptive conflict. The goal of the program is disturbance
free classrooms (and playgrounds). We achieve this goal in the context
of the PCT principles by carrying out the following practices: 1)
teacher's don't try to control disruptive kids; teachers just
teach and remove disruptive kids gently (a form of control, true,
but one that doesn't require constant disruptive output from the
teacher) and 2) "problem" students are handled by the RCR specialist,
not the teacher.

I'd like to know more about the procedure for removing disruptive kids
"gently." What if the student "just says no"? (This happened two days
ago in a classroom in which our teaching fellow was observing a student
teacher's performance.) Since the students will quickly discover that
the teacher is controlling for behaving "gently" it is not clear that
all sorts of counter control games would not emerge. Of course you have
no data, so I guess the question is unfair. This issue demonstrates why
the imagination mode is so popular.

Bruce Gregory