HPCT another Approach

CSGnet Archive CSG2010
1

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.09.16.41NZT)

Attached is an introduction
to some of my thoughts on levels 5 to 11 of HPCT.

It will require a
paradigm (a requisite requirement in one of the models aspects) shift for many
to see what I’m talking about.

Some of you will not like
it at all. But moving into new uncharted territory is scary and dangerous at
worst.

In many senses what I‘m
showing is how with my interpretation of the upper levels of the human mind
requires creativity and openness but is fraught with danger and intrepidity.

Have fun or fear.

Regards

Gavin

Diagram of PCT and Combination of 3 Models.pdf (78.7 KB)

HPCT Levels and CIAM.doc (29.5 KB)

2

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.09.0835)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.09.16.41NZT)

Attached is an introduction to some of my thoughts on levels 5 to 11
of HPCT

There was no attachment.

It will require a paradigm (a requisite requirement in one of the models
aspects) shift for many to see what I�m talking about.

Some of you will not like it at all. But moving into new uncharted
territory is scary and dangerous at worst.

What's scary is presenting a new theory with no data to back it up.
Theories sans data are religious beliefs and those are very scary
indeed. Well, the beliefs themselves aren't; the people who believe
them, however...

Have fun or fear.

I can't do either without knowing what it is I am to have fun with or fear.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

3

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.9.50NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2010.09.09.0835)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.09.16.41NZT)

Attached is an introduction to some of my
thoughts on levels 5 to 11

of HPCT

There was no attachment.

Attached.

It will require a paradigm (a requisite
requirement in one of the models

aspects) shift for many to see what I’m
talking about.

Some of you will not like it at all. But moving
into new uncharted

territory is scary and dangerous at worst.

GR: What’s scary is presenting a new theory with no
data.

GR: It’s not a theory it’s a Model.

GR: There is so much data to back up these Models. When
you are ready I will send you piece at a time so this can be digested so that effective outcomes are created.

to back it up.

Theories sans data are religious beliefs and those are
very scary

indeed. Well, the beliefs themselves aren’t; the
people who believe

them, however…

GR: Anything above level 4 in
PCT falls into this category and you know that.

HPCT Levels and CIAM1.doc (29.5 KB)

Diagram of PCT and Combination of 3 Models.pdf (78.7 KB)

···
4

David Goldstein (2010.09.09.21:55EDT)

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.9.50NZT)

Gavin,

I can’t make head or tail of your model.

Can you give a specific, concrete example. of it?

David

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Gavin Ritz

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 5:56 PM

Subject: Re: HPCT another Approach

( Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.9.50NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.09.0835)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.09.16.41NZT)

Attached is an introduction to some of my thoughts on levels 5 to 11

of HPCT

There was no attachment.

Attached.

It will require a paradigm (a requisite requirement in one of the models

aspects) shift for many to see what I’m talking about.

Some of you will not like it at all. But moving into new uncharted

territory is scary and dangerous at worst.

GR: What’s scary is presenting a new theory with no data.

GR: It’s not a theory it’s a Model.

GR: There is so much data to back up these Models. When you are ready I will send you piece at a tim e so this can be digested so that effective outcomes are created.

to back it up.

Theories sans data are religious beliefs and those are very scary

indeed. Well, the beliefs themselves aren’t; the people who believe

them, however…

GR: Anything above level 4 in PCT falls into this category and you know that.

5

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.10.2050)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.0910.9.50NZT)

Rick Marken (2010.09.09.0835)--

GR: Attached is an introduction to some of my thoughts on levels 5 to 11
of� HPCT

RM:There was no attachment.

GR: Attached.

OK, Gavin, I don't mind you scaring the heck out of me with this stuff
but you're going to far when you start scaring my friends [David
Goldstein (2010.09.09.21:55EDT)]:wink:

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

6

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.10.15.47NZT)

David Goldstein
(2010.09.09.21:55EDT)

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.9.50NZT)

Gavin,

I can’t make head or tail
of your model.

Can you give a specific,
concrete example. of it?

David

David

This is going to be the real hard part because
it’s very difficult to start. There is a combined 150 years of individuals
work in that model.

What do you specifically want to know?

There are some many concrete examples I wouldn’t
know where to start. Basically there could be any controlled variable selected.
Choose one. So we can start.

Regards

Gavin

···

----- Original Message -----

From: Gavin Ritz

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Sent: Thursday,
September 09, 2010 5:56 PM

Subject: Re: HPCT
another Approach

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.9.50NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2010.09.09.0835)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.09.16.41NZT)

Attached is an introduction to some of
my thoughts on levels 5 to 11

of HPCT

There was no attachment.

Attached.

It will require a paradigm (a requisite
requirement in one of the models

aspects) shift for many to see what
I’m talking about.

Some of you will not like it at all.
But moving into new uncharted

territory is scary and dangerous at
worst.

GR: What’s scary is presenting a new theory
with no data.

GR: It’s not a theory it’s a
Model.

GR: There is so much data to back up these
Models. When you are ready I will send you piece at a time so this can be
digested so that effective outcomes are created.

to back it up.

Theories sans data are religious beliefs
and those are very scary

indeed. Well, the beliefs themselves
aren’t; the people who believe

them, however…

GR:
Anything above level 4 in PCT falls into this category and you know that.

7

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.10.16.05)
[From Rick Marken (2010.09.10.2050)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.0910.9.50NZT)

Rick Marken (2010.09.09.0835)--

GR: Attached is an introduction to some of my thoughts on levels 5 to 11
of� HPCT

RM:There was no attachment.

GR: Attached.

OK, Gavin, I don't mind you scaring the heck out of me with this stuff
but you're going to far when you start scaring my friends [David
Goldstein (2010.09.09.21:55EDT)]:wink:

Hey it's all tongue in cheek

8

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.09.2130)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.10.15.47NZT)--

David Goldstein (2010.09.09.21:55EDT)

DG: I can't make head or tail of your model.
Can you give a specific, concrete example. of it?

GR: What do you specifically want to know?

I don't know about David but I would like to know how your model
accounts for our ability to control for principles like "honesty".
Principles are currently at about the 8th or 9th level of the
theoretical hierarchy (but who's counting). Since your model gets rid
of control levels above the fourth or so, how does you model account
for our ability control for principles?

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

9

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.10.16.22NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2010.09.10.2050)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.0910.9.50NZT)

Rick Marken (2010.09.09.0835)

What would be nice Rick if
you could open yourself to the Possibility that this model could help propel
PCT as the most robust model of human thought and action.

Already Bill, you
and others have shown through experiment and data that PCT is a sound Model up
to probably level 3/4 of HPCT. I’m not interested in going there you guys
have spent 30 to 40 years showing this. I think you are correct.

Others have spent a
combined 100 years on creativity, logic, qualities. With massive amounts of
data, testing, etc. Which you and PCTer’s know nothing or very little about.

Creation takes time
you don’t have enough time, Bill doesn’t
have, I don’t have on my own, but together we do. There’s a combined
creation time of 150 years
in that model.

It’s not going to
be easy because it’s so enormous to digest.

I have thrown at you an
almost infinite amount of potential Controlled Variables. Select one that is
out of your comfort zone, and let’s see what happens. This is how
creation works, organisms select. That’s Natural Selection.

Regards

Gavin

···
10

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.16.50NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.09.2130)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.10.15.47NZT)–

David Goldstein
(2010.09.09.21:55EDT)

DG: I can’t make head or tail of your
model.

Can you give a specific, concrete example. of
it?

GR: What do you specifically want to know?

I don’t know about David but I would like to know how your model

accounts for our ability to control for principles
like “honesty”.

Principles are currently at about the 8th or 9th level
of the

theoretical hierarchy (but who’s counting). Since your
model gets rid

of control levels above the fourth or so, how does you
model account

for our ability control for principles?

Ok, What do you mean by
honesty and how do you know it’s a principle.

11

[From Rick Marken(2010.09.09.2240)]

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.16.50NZT)

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.10.15.47NZT)–

Ok, What do you mean by
honesty and how do you know it’s a principle.

Honesty is like truthfulness. It’s a variable because there are various degrees of it, from completely honest to completely dishonest. It’s called a principle in PCT because there are many different ways (programs of action that one can control for) to be honest or dishonest.

Honesty seems to be a controlled variable because people can be seen to maintain their honesty at different levels against disturbances (like pleas to tell the truth). PCT accounts for this observation by saying that people perceive and control a perception of honesty.

Honesty is a high level perception – at least level 7-- that is derived from lower level perceptions. Makes a lot of sense to me and it is consistent with observation. I’m reluctant to give that up just because you say I should.

Best

Rick

12

[David Goldstein (2010.09.10.2:24EDT)]

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.10.15.47NZT)

GR: What do you specifically want to know?

DG: As a therapist, I would like to know how it is going to help me understand a person who seeks my help. I would like to know the best way to help a person make changes that the person wishes to change. For example, I am working with a woman who is angry and depressed, and her alcoholic drinking is out of control. She can’t control her drinking. She has stopped working because of this problem and is on disability.

13

( Gavin
Ritz 2010.09.10.18.28NZT)

[From Rick Marken(2010.09.09.2240)]

(Gavin Ritz 2010.0910.16.50NZT)

Gavin Ritz
(2010.09.10.15.47NZT)–

Ok, What do you mean by honesty and how do you know it’s a
principle.

Honesty is like
truthfulness.

Okay but you haven’t really told me what
you mean, give me an example what honesty is. Truth which truth, whose truth.

It’s a variable

Okay

because there are various
degrees of it, from completely honest to completely dishonest.

Okay, what about self-honesty, what about honestly
between two people, what about honesty between an entire society. How are you
defining this?

Is honesty a mutual Trust???

Is it a quality?

How do you know if you are “being”
honest?

It’s called a
principle

Yes but what exactly is a principle.

Honesty seems to be a
controlled variable because people can be seen to maintain their honesty

Yes I agree it’s a controlled
variable.

···
14

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.10.0740)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.10.18.28NZT)

GR: Okay but you haven�t really told me what you mean, give me an example
what honesty is. Truth which truth, whose truth.

Never mind. Let's try this. The "model" you describe in your
diagram(it looks more like a set of labeled squiggles to me; wheres
the variables and operators? ) only controls up to "configurations".
How does this alleged improvement over PCT account for the ability to
control sequences. If you don't know what a sequence is or what
control of a sequence is go to:

http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/HP.html

How would your model account for a person's ability to control the
sequence in that demo?

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

15

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.11.1050NZT)

[David Goldstein (2010.09.10.2:24EDT)]

(Gavin Ritz
2010.09.10.15.47NZT)

GR: What do you specifically want to know?

DG: As a
therapist, I would like to know how it is going to help me understand a
person who seeks my help. I would like to know the best way to help a person
make changes that the person wishes to change. For example, I am working with a
woman who is angry and depressed, and her alcoholic drinking is out of control.
She can’t control her drinking. She has stopped working because of this problem
and is on disability.

David

I’m going to cut this down as far as
I can go. Without boring you with details.

The basis of the Model is Energy, Entropy
Production (the definitions are for non-equilibrium systems, otherwise they
mean the same as in science), Time (defined as in Elliot Jaques two types of time, chronological and
mental time) and blockages
or constraints. All of the foundational concepts imply each other.

There exists in this individual a frozen Control
System (s) (as in PCT) at Time (A) who lives now at Time (NOW). This produces massive internal
tension which uses up energy.

Internally created Entropy production is a
requisite requirement for health in all individuals and for creation. As this
blockage frozen in time (A) stops entropy production, this individual tries to import it
as a Controlled Variable (that is
they select for this, that we see as alcohol, poor social skills, blame, lies, hypochondria,
denial etc). Importing entropy from the environment can be a deadly game.

So this frozen CS system (s) is an “attractor
state” for this individual.

The goal of a therapist I presume is to
find this hidden frozen time block (gently with empathy) and help the individual to overcome
this.

It’s about personal honesty I guess
and the courage to face up to oneself frankly.

Regards

Gavin

···
16

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.11.11.18)

[From Rick Marken
(2010.09.10.0740)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.10.18.28NZT)

GR: Okay but you haven’t really told me what
you mean, give me an example

what honesty is. Truth which truth, whose truth.

Never mind. Let’s try this. The “model” you describe
in your

diagram(it looks more like a set of labeled squiggles
to me; wheres

the variables and operators? ) only controls up to
“configurations”.

How does this alleged improvement over PCT account for
the ability to

control sequences. If you don’t know what a sequence
is or what

control of a sequence is go to:

Rick

You haven’t answered
the question because honesty is a controlled variable of great importance in
PCT.

I know exactly what a
sequence is but that’s not what we are discussing now.

And Honesty is of great
importance in this communication now between you and me.

Regards

Gavin

···
17

[David Goldstein (2010. 09.10.21:36EDT)]

Gavin Ritz 2010.09.11.1050NZT)

What is a “frozen control system?”

How do these ideas help me find it?

How do these ideas help me to “unfreeze” the block?

David

18

( Gavin
Ritz 2010.09.11.14.07NZT)

[David Goldstein (2010.
09.10.21:36EDT)]

Gavin Ritz
2010.09.11.1050NZT)

What is a
“frozen control system?”

It’s a PCT Control System (s). There
could be many and there probably are.

Its error remains large and it’s
frozen at Time (A).

How do these
ideas help me find it?

All Internal Entropy production is defined
as the sum of the forces (qualities) times the fluxes (quantities). So some quality is blocked.

In this particular case forces could be
twin concepts like (attention-rejection, attachment-abandonment, expression-restriction,
grandness-depletion, support-neglect).

How do these
ideas help me to “unfreeze” the block?

You need to identify all this individuals control
variables (that is what they select) and link that to something like above. They
will have a common factor and that will be the internal frozen CS systems ** Identity (s)**.

You will need to gain mutual trust with
this person and what I mean by that is:

Definition 1.of mutual (trust) honesty:
relationships in which individuals can rely on each other not to engage in
doing damaging, harmful or injurious things to each other.

Definition 2: of mutual trust: being
“open” enough to connect with another for fruitful outcomes.

These two definitions mirror the forces I
mention above. For example if this person’s frozen time block is
attention-rejection most of their Controlled Variables will mirror this, ie
they will seek constant attention-rejection through things like hypochondria, saying
rejecting harmful things to others, degrade others, break rapport, sexually
permissive, say inappropriate things, general attention seeking etc.

It’s the job of the therapist to carefully
and gently identify these things and slowly bring it to the patient’s
attention in a mutually trustworthy way.

This is no easy task of that I’m
sure you are aware. At times maybe impossible.

Individuals that have these problems have generally
created a whole myth around their lives, that is most of what they have created
is to hide this frozen Control Systems(s), the older they get the worse it
becomes because the energy required to maintain it gets bigger. So they import
more entropy- select more control variables (drugs, alcohol, affairs, debt and
a whole raft of shocking behaviors).

I have lost quite a few friends to this.
It’s a very sad situation.

Gavin

···
19

(Gavin Ritz 2010.09.15.06NZT)

[David Goldstein (2010.
09.10.21:36EDT)]

Gavin Ritz
2010.09.11.1050NZT)

How do these
ideas help me to “unfreeze” the block?

David

I would like to add that the CIAM Model is
not a recipe for therapy, there is no recipe for any therapy and there never
will be because of the enormous amounts of selection (Controlled Variables) that
is possible.

The CIAM Model is about energy (& work)-entropy
production, Creativeness, Time and Quality Criteria. CIAM means the creative concentrated
purposeful emptiness of living matter.

I do strategy synthesis for companies. It’s
only different in the sense I only have to Identify the blocked Control Systems
and it’s only detrimental to the viability of the organisation if I don’t
find it.

I generate a quality array of many criteria
and slowly link them up to one or two key criteria this is easy compared to
therapy.

In a therapy case it’s much much more
difficult.

Therapy is the most difficult thing in the
world I have spent years thinking about how to unblock Frozen Time Control
Systems in the human mind-body.

I know it can be done.

Gavin

···
20

[From Rick Marken (2010.09.11.0920)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.09.11.11.18) --

Rick Marken (2010.09.10.0740)--

RM: How does this alleged improvement over PCT account for the
ability to control sequences.

GR: You haven�t answered the question because honesty is a
controlled variable of great importance in PCT.

No, the reason I haven't answered the question [about what honesty is]
is because I already answered it. I also think you ask such questions
because you are just avoiding answering my questions.

It's difficult to discuss things with you because you seem to be
convinced that you understand PCT when you clearly don't. You betray
you ignorance of PCT in almost every sentence you write. For example,
in your comment above you say "honesty is a controlled variable of
great importance in PCT". This is just nonsense. There is no
controlled variable that is of "greater importance" than any another
in PCT. I suspect that you really don't really even know what a
controlled variable is.

I also find your approach to PCT uninteresting (at best) because it is
completely non-empirical. You have never mentioned the experimental or
phenomenological data that supports the basic organizational structure
of the PCT model and you have not described any clear empirical tests
of your own suggested changes to the model.

I'm writing this to let you know that I'm not going to continue
discussing your suggestions about how to "improve" PCT until you 1)
describe implementations of you ideas in the form of working models
(preferably as computer programs) and 2) describe observations that
would test these models. . It's nothing personal. But I really can't
see wasting any more time on this until you start doing this.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com