PCT and economics: an emergency

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.05.0444 MST)]
This is a letter that needs to be conveyed to as many people who make
economic decisions as possible. OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM CONTAINS
DESTABILIZING FEEDBACK LOOPS THAT CAN DESTROY IT. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO REMOVE THEM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
This is a true time bomb. It is perfectly obvious, and it is to my shame
and that of everyone who understands the dynamics of control systems that
it was not noticed, publicized, and corrected long ago. It is very simple
and we are watching it operate every day that this recession
deepens.
Its cause is some set of policies or principles that are thought to be
necessary to maintain the viability of a business, but which, when
generally adopted, have the effect of exaggerating swings in the market
and, if widespread enough, throw the market into a state of dynamic
instability that feeds on itself. Increases in market activity cause a
piling-on effect which drive the increases even further and induce more
frenzied market activity. The same underlying relationships work the
other way, too: when the market peaks and starts downward, this cause the
enthusiasm to wane and the market activity to slow down, and the slowdown
causes an even more dampening effect, which makes the slowdown
accelerate. Whichever way the market tends to change, the change is
exaggerated by this feedback effect. The initial result when the amount
of feedback is small is that the economy displays
“boom-and-bust” cycles of relatively small amplitude, which die
out after a time. When the degree of this effect becomes large
enough, the swings start to get larger and can enter a region in which a
runaway effect occurs. Then the only way to stop the growing oscillations
is for something in the system to be damaged enough to reduce the
feedback effect below the fatal threshold of sensitivity.
One obvious destabilizing effect we are seeing right now is that
companies faced with falling sales are laying off parts of their
workforces to reduce costs and preserve their net income. As the number
of employed persons decreases, the total income of the average consumer
falls, so there is less money to spend on goods and services – the very
spending that is the source of income for the companies who are laying
off workers (and each others’ customers). So we have the situation in
which the attempt of companies to reduce expenses and restore their
income to profitable levels has the effect of reducing, not increasing,
the total net income of all companies. That leads to an increase in the
attempts to reduce expenses, and so on. *If enough companies follow the
same policy, there can be only one outcome: total collapse.*This is probably not the only destabilizing feature in the basic
relationships that make up our economic systems. It is only one obvious
feedback loop with the wrong sign. This is known technically as a
positive feedback loop, one in which small changes lead to larger
changes, in contrast with the negative feedback loop in which
small perturbations are negated by feedback effects and are immediately
smoothed out. In popular usage “positive feedback” means
encouragement and approval, but if encouragement occurs only when one is
doing better and is withdrawn when one begins to do less well, the seeds
of true positive feedback have been planted; at the first sign of doing
less well, approval will decrease, and the resulting lessening of
encouragement will cause performance to decrease even more, and so on to
disaster. What works on the way up continues to work on the way down.
Changes in either direction are exaggerated by positive feedback, and the
result is instability. If there is enough instability, the system will
destroy itself.

The cure for positive feedback and its destructive effects is to ferret
out and remove all the positive feedback loops. There should be little
resistance to doing this, because what will be revealed is the clear fact
that actions intended to improve matters are actually making them worse.
Any sane person will cease such actions even if their undesirability is
not immediately explained or understood. Once we step back and look at
the overall relationships, the instability that is caused by a wrong
response to problems becomes obvious. Then the main issue is seen
clearly: what do we need to change to prevent this sort of destabilizing
feedback from occurring?

Stabilizing the economic system does not require telling people what to
buy or what to sell, or for how much, or to whom. It requires
intervention only when a reaction to a change in economic activity,
either upward or downward, results in amplification of the change rather
than smoothing it out. Just why this amplification occurs has to be
studied so the correct adjustment can be made. It could be only that
there is too much reaction to a change. It could be that the reaction is
too much delayed, so what would have been a stablizing reaction if it had
occurred right away becomes destablizing when applied too late. Or it
could be that the intuitive reaction to a problem is exactly the reaction
that will make it worse, showing that there is a mistaken understanding
of how one part of the system affects other parts.

Reaching an understanding of instability in the economic system is no
longer an abstract goal of only academic interest. It is a necessity for
our survival. It requires a massive investigation and the efforts of many
competent scientists who know how to analyze and model large systems – a
Manhattan Project that will finally unravel the mysteries of how the
economic system works. We need to understand exactly what kind of
technical public-sector interventions can be brought to bear when the
free market goes into free fall, without infringing on rights or imposing
micromanagement on individual entrepreneurs and consumers. The answer, at
times, could be as simple as a slowing of changes similar to what the
stock market imposes when panic threatens an individual stock. Sometimes
it could require rulings about policies which, if followed by enough
transacting parties, threaten the entire system. Some existing
regulations might prove to cause more of the problems they were intended
to lessen.

The only way to find the answers we need is to construct a working model
of the economy, which requires studying it in sufficient detail to
construct that model, and then, once consensus is reached, using the
model first to reproduce the economic events that are so troublesome to
everyone, and then looking for the minimum changes required to prevent
them from ever happening again.

Please forward this letter wherever you think it might do some
good.

Bill Powers

[From Fred Nickols (2008.12.05.0723 MST)]

I’ll wager the folks over on the Systems Dynamics (SD) list
thought of this too. I’ll forward your letter to the SD list and see what kind
of responses it gets.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting, LLC

nickols@att.net

www.nickols.us

image00217.jpg

"Assistance at a Distance"

···

From: Control Systems
Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill
Powers
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:09 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: PCT and economics: an emergency

[From Bill Powers
(2008.12.05.0444 MST)]
This is a letter that needs to be conveyed to as many people who make economic
decisions as possible. OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM CONTAINS DESTABILIZING FEEDBACK
LOOPS THAT CAN DESTROY IT. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REMOVE THEM AS QUICKLY
AS POSSIBLE.
This is a true time bomb. It is perfectly obvious, and it is to my shame and
that of everyone who understands the dynamics of control systems that it was
not noticed, publicized, and corrected long ago. It is very simple and we are
watching it operate every day that this recession deepens.
Its cause is some set of policies or principles that are thought to be
necessary to maintain the viability of a business, but which, when generally
adopted, have the effect of exaggerating swings in the market and, if
widespread enough, throw the market into a state of dynamic instability that
feeds on itself. Increases in market activity cause a piling-on effect which
drive the increases even further and induce more frenzied market activity. The
same underlying relationships work the other way, too: when the market peaks
and starts downward, this cause the enthusiasm to wane and the market activity
to slow down, and the slowdown causes an even more dampening effect, which
makes the slowdown accelerate. Whichever way the market tends to change, the
change is exaggerated by this feedback effect. The initial result when the
amount of feedback is small is that the economy displays
“boom-and-bust” cycles of relatively small amplitude, which die out
after a time. When the degree of this effect becomes large enough, the
swings start to get larger and can enter a region in which a runaway effect
occurs. Then the only way to stop the growing oscillations is for something in
the system to be damaged enough to reduce the feedback effect below the fatal
threshold of sensitivity.
One obvious destabilizing effect we are seeing right now is that companies
faced with falling sales are laying off parts of their workforces to reduce
costs and preserve their net income. As the number of employed persons
decreases, the total income of the average consumer falls, so there is less
money to spend on goods and services – the very spending that is the source of
income for the companies who are laying off workers (and each others’
customers). So we have the situation in which the attempt of companies to
reduce expenses and restore their income to profitable levels has the effect of
reducing, not increasing, the total net income of all companies. That leads to
an increase in the attempts to reduce expenses, and so on. *If enough
companies follow the same policy, there can be only one outcome: total
collapse.*This is probably not the only destabilizing feature in the basic relationships
that make up our economic systems. It is only one obvious feedback loop with
the wrong sign. This is known technically as a positive feedback loop,
one in which small changes lead to larger changes, in contrast with the negative
feedback loop in which small perturbations are negated by feedback effects and
are immediately smoothed out. In popular usage “positive feedback”
means encouragement and approval, but if encouragement occurs only when one is
doing better and is withdrawn when one begins to do less well, the seeds of
true positive feedback have been planted; at the first sign of doing less well,
approval will decrease, and the resulting lessening of encouragement will cause
performance to decrease even more, and so on to disaster. What works on the way
up continues to work on the way down. Changes in either direction are
exaggerated by positive feedback, and the result is instability. If there is
enough instability, the system will destroy itself.

The cure for positive feedback and its destructive effects is to ferret out and
remove all the positive feedback loops. There should be little resistance to
doing this, because what will be revealed is the clear fact that actions
intended to improve matters are actually making them worse. Any sane person
will cease such actions even if their undesirability is not immediately
explained or understood. Once we step back and look at the overall
relationships, the instability that is caused by a wrong response to problems
becomes obvious. Then the main issue is seen clearly: what do we need to change
to prevent this sort of destabilizing feedback from occurring?

Stabilizing the economic system does not require telling people what to buy or
what to sell, or for how much, or to whom. It requires intervention only when a
reaction to a change in economic activity, either upward or downward, results
in amplification of the change rather than smoothing it out. Just why this
amplification occurs has to be studied so the correct adjustment can be made.
It could be only that there is too much reaction to a change. It could be that
the reaction is too much delayed, so what would have been a stablizing reaction
if it had occurred right away becomes destablizing when applied too late. Or it
could be that the intuitive reaction to a problem is exactly the reaction that
will make it worse, showing that there is a mistaken understanding of how one
part of the system affects other parts.

Reaching an understanding of instability in the economic system is no longer an
abstract goal of only academic interest. It is a necessity for our survival. It
requires a massive investigation and the efforts of many competent scientists
who know how to analyze and model large systems – a Manhattan Project that
will finally unravel the mysteries of how the economic system works. We need to
understand exactly what kind of technical public-sector interventions can be
brought to bear when the free market goes into free fall, without infringing on
rights or imposing micromanagement on individual entrepreneurs and consumers.
The answer, at times, could be as simple as a slowing of changes similar to
what the stock market imposes when panic threatens an individual stock.
Sometimes it could require rulings about policies which, if followed by enough
transacting parties, threaten the entire system. Some existing regulations
might prove to cause more of the problems they were intended to lessen.

The only way to find the answers we need is to construct a working model of the
economy, which requires studying it in sufficient detail to construct that
model, and then, once consensus is reached, using the model first to reproduce
the economic events that are so troublesome to everyone, and then looking for
the minimum changes required to prevent them from ever happening again.

Please forward this letter wherever you think it might do some good.

Bill Powers

[From Dick Robertson.2008.12.05.1020CDT]

Well, I forwarded it to Sen. Dick Durbin. Let’s see if they take notice in DC.

Dick R

···

[From Ted Cloak (2008.12.05.0922 MST)

One main
cause of this positive feedback is speculation in the market: Players bet on
what the market (i.e., the other players) will do, regardless of the instrinsic
(real) values of the securities they are buying and selling. One suggested
remedy for that is the “Tobin Tax”, simply a very small tax on
every transaction, to dampen that activity.

[From Bill Powers
(2008.12.05.0444 MST)]

This is a letter that needs to be conveyed to as many people who make economic
decisions as possible. OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM CONTAINS DESTABILIZING FEEDBACK
LOOPS THAT CAN DESTROY IT. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REMOVE THEM AS QUICKLY
AS POSSIBLE.

This is a true time bomb. It is perfectly obvious, and it is to my shame and that
of everyone who understands the dynamics of control systems that it was not
noticed, publicized, and corrected long ago. It is very simple and we are
watching it operate every day that this recession deepens.

/SNIP/

[From Bruce Nevin (2008.12.05.2008 EST)]

Maybe there’s an opportunity to participate in this incursion into the entrenched view of things:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/opinion/28brooks.html

Sure, the writer of this op-ed piece is mired in CogPsych TOTE thinking, and the term “behavioralist economics” pushes a rhetorical hot button for any PCTer well schooled in the proper status of behaviorism (the similarity is only lexical), but there’s more going on here–and they have Obama’s ear.

/B
···

This crisis is evidence that those policies haven't worked. There was no reason for the crisis to move from wall street to main street other than that the system was setup wrong. We have a system so incompetent that it doesn't even know how to print money in the face of a multi-trillion dollar deflation. Our current system depends upon stimulating the very credit and leverage instability that produces the crisis. Gettting banks to lend to consumers who might be poor credit risks due to possible layoffs is made more difficult by consumers who don't want take on more debt when their jobs are insecure. So the Federal Reserve lowers interest rates, further lowering incentives to save for a people already accused of having the lowest savings rate in the world. It has all been likened to pushing on a string.

The Federal Reserve should just print money the new fangled way, issue everybody debit cards and deposit money into their accounts. If we are going to print fiat money, why go through the fiction of lending and the reality of risky leverage. We should be able to target the same 2 to 3% inflation rate through printing money. I'm sorry but a 30% deflation is missing the 2-3% target and causing a totally artificial and avoidable crisis. The fed could inflate the economy, yet retain interest rates at reasonable rates, so that there is still incentive to save. It would also help if the double taxes on dividends and capital gains were eliminated. If you are going to double tax something it should be interest. Who was it that thought of creating tax incentives to encourage leverage and risk? Bush had the courage and principles to attempt this needed reform, but the democrats stomach a tax break for the rich. So they steered all the business to the banks and the bond brokers!
. Debt
and leverage risk are their legacy. Of course, the conservatives are no help, they are so afraid of a government that finances itself by printing money, that they created a fiat money system that didn't know how to print money. The money that was created through fractional reserve lending benefitted the banks also. I see no reason to have the beneftis of money creation go to the banks rather than the people, especially when the former fails in circumstances such as this, while the latter is far more robust.

-- Martin

···

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Marken <rsmarken@GMAIL.COM>

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1740)]

Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1720 MST)--
>
> Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1440) --
>
Sure. But I was assuming that you really can't eliminate the positive
> feedback loop; all you can really do is damp it.
>

> Well, whether you can or not, that's what I want to do. I want to find
> something else that managers can do instead that will actually work.
>

> We can do that either by educating them or by passing laws, like a law
> saying "This is a Blue Condition day and you can't lay anybody off -- do
> something else instead."
>

I think CSGNet is a clear demonstration of how ineffective education can be.
And I don't think you'd have a lot of luck passing a law like that -- even
_I_ would vote against it. No, I think policies like unemployment, negative
income tax, retraining and progressive taxation have been shown to work just
fine. I think our economic problem come not from people not knowing what to
do -- history provides a nice model of what to do -- it comes from some
people just being very, very greedy.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.06.1600)]

Martin Lewitt (2008 1206.1340mst)

regarding: [From Rick Marken (2008.12.06.1030)]

Richard, you appear to be assuming that wealth is static, and ignoring the fact that redistributing it from the wealthy to the poor would make it even more static by shift the allocation from investment to consumption.

I am not assuming wealth is static. Wealth obviously varies over time, in terms of size (changes in GDP) and distribution (across the population). I have no idea what you mean when you say that redistributing wealth from rich to poor would make it more static. How could that be. the redistribution occurs over time; it’s a dynamic process. The idea that shifting wealth from rich to poor means shifting it from investment to consumption turns out to be contradicted by the data. The main data relevant to this point is that capital investment has been a nearly constant percentage (~18%) of GDP over the last 100 years or so. This was an observation made by Bill Powers’ father based on data culled from the Statistical Index of the US. During the last 100 years there have been considerable shifts in wealth distribution, so the constancy of investment suggests that these dynamic changes have had little effect on level of investment; it just stays at about 18% of GDP.

Even Marx appreciated that wealth wasn’t static and that deferring consumption and investing in research and capital equipment increased the productivity of labor and the total wealth in the long run.

Investment is great but the data show that investment follows demand (consumption). There has to be a market for stuff before one invests in capital equipment that increases production. As far as investment in R&D I think that should be a constant proportion of the cost of doing certain kinds of business and it should also be a public investment. Taxes are public investment in infrastructure that increases the productivity of all producers. Taxes, which should be paid in proportion to affordability (progressive) are the condo fee for living in the country. I want to living in a real nice condo. The US used to be a real nicely kept up condo but then the anti-government crowd took over and here we are in foreclosure

from FDR to Reagan is from more than 20% unemployment in 1937 to Jimmy Carters double digit inflation in 1979. You also should cut Reagan some slack since before he even came into office, instead of waiting for Reagan to try is idea of producing our way out of the inflation, Paul Volcker instead decided the way to “break the inflation psychology” was a $500 billion dollar recession. That was back when $500 billion was real money.

Nope, I won’t cut Reagan any slack; he began the destruction of the American middle class; Bush completed the job.

Your redistributionist scheme would take a system that already punishes savings and investment in the future, and make it more so, by having central planners in the government do nearly all the investment. You should read F.A. Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom”, especially the chapter on why the worst always seem to rise to the top.

My redistributionist scheme is nothing more than the USA pre-Reagan. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly moving in a better direction (for the majority) than it is now. I have read some Hayek and found it rather uninteresting. For my taste a much better picture of the economy is given by T. C. Powers in a book called “Leakage”; there are some mistakes in it but overall I think it’s a very convincing start at a picture of how an economy works at the macro level.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.07.0730 MST)]

Martin Lewitt (2008 1207.0602 MST) --

Yes, purchase and consumption of goods won't be the only effect.
People will be free to make mortage payments, save in deposit accounts,
invest in stocks, start new business enterprises, etc.

And other people will see that more money is available and start raising their prices, etc. -- not all the effects will be beneficial. But I have no idea what the actual overall effect would be. As I said, I can't do that kind of equation-solving in my head, and I don't know anyone who can -- especially since we don't have all the equations yet.

Printing the money is just replacing the money that has disappeared through deleveraging,

Hey, come on. Deleveraging? I think that might mean paying off debts, in which case I would agree. But there is another widely popular way of keeping money from disappearing. Borrow it, spend it, and then default on the loan. The lender can't get the money back (the borrower no longer has it) so it stays in circulation, all but the paltry fraction recovered through forced sale of assets at pennies on the dollar and used to pay off a little of the debt. That may account for the majority of money that is now in circulation. Some financial "system"!

Economies with debt denominated in nominal terms have a much easier time adjusting to inflation rather than deflation.

You're not talking to Wall Street gurus here. Debt denominated in nominal terms? Try that again in English. Or anyway American.

Do I really need to supply evidence that
governments have the ability to debase currencies to the extent of
causing inflation? If they didn't, that would imply they have the ability to
create wealth out of nothing and their would be no excuse not to print
enough money to make everyone materially wealthy. They can't make
everyone wealthy but what they can do is impact nominal prices, and
in the current circumstance replace money that has disappeared
through deleveraging to a large enough extent to offset the aggregate
decline in nominal prices of assets and goods.

That's complicated, but I can follow it, which means it's not complicated enough. Also, I can't verify the quantitative relationships you imply, so I don't know what the real conclusions ought to be.

Anyway, how do you know you're wealthy if you're not wealthier than someone else? A lot of the reason for being rich is to show how much better and smarter than poor people you are. We can get used to any scale of living, and enjoy it. But if the object is to be better off than someone else, you can never stop striving for more because the others keep trying to catch up.

> I think you'd like my late father's book,

Is there more about this leakage theory online, perhaps in the
archives here?

There's some, but it hasn't been extracted (to my knowledge) in any handy form. Lots of people who think they already understand economics pooh-poohed it. I don't entirely buy it myself, since my dad was of the old school which said that individual characteristics have nothing to do with economics, and he made some pretty off-the-wall propositions (this is the kettle calling the pop black). Send me your address and I'll lend you my copy of the book (return guaranteed on pain of kneecapping). Or buy one (Amazon is offering 15 used/new copies for $7.97 plus shipping -- $40 new).

The recirculation sounds a bit like monetary velocity, but I need to know more.

It's the circular flow of macroeconomics, expressed in terms of a composite consumer and a composite producer. The producer pays the consumer to produce the product, while the consumer, using that income, pays the producer to obtain the product -- that's the "circle." Ideally the cost of production is paid out in just sufficient quantity to buy the whole product. A markup of price over production cost is required to provide for capital income for owners and investors (capital expenses, profits, and dividends). It's all rather neat, but it leaves out a lot.

    Did he not acknowledge
the Carter double digit inflation as inflation?

I'm sure he mentioned it in passing. Don't recall what he said about it.

> Plug those features into your economic model and let me
> see it running on my computer.

You might have more faith in models than I do.

One thing I definitely don't have is faith in models. I want to KNOW that they predict historical data correctly before I trust them to make any predictions of the future. and they had better predict accurately, or I'll either tinker with them until they do, or junk them. I haven't seen any economic models worth keeping. Parts of a model, maybe. My own are far from complete.

Humans can have unanticipated reactions.

Oh, yes, but we don't have to anticipate reactions to build a model that will show the consequences of reactions correctly. Unpredictable reactions are independent variables in a model -- they're not functions of any other system variables. A good model shows you what you can't predict, as well as what you can.

Sometimes we can just know the sign and magnitude of the effect but not the result when everything is netted out.

I don't think that's good enough. I think we can do better than that.

Take climate change for instance,

Climate change is not the result of interactions among purposive negative feedback control systems with high gain and knowable goals (though it may be affected by their actions). Economics is. PCT is about purposive negative feedback control systems. When PCT is used as a basis for an economic model, that model will do lots better than models based on other, incorrect, theories of behavioral organization.

In economics too, sometimes we have to make decision while knowing
little more than the sign of effects. Just like we know that unemployment
insurance can help put a temporary floor on how far and fast consumption
can drop, we also know that having a tax system that favors debt financing
and punishes equity financing will result in more debt ridden and highly
leveraged businesses, and that the sign of the effect will be to accelerate
the layoff cycle we have been discussing.

I don't want to leave it at that. That's not a good enough model to do what needs to be done. In PCT we have a completely new model of economic man which is very different from the ones assumed by economists -- and we have a lot of very strong reasons to think it's right and the others are wrong. Some economists have been trying to build something called "agent-based economics." Well, PCT is the theory they need to do that. PCT is all about the agents without which there would be no economics.

A PCT agent does not act because of being rewarded. It acts as a means of controlling variables that matter to it. A so-called "reward" is just one of those controlled variables affected by some particular action, and it's the action that controls the reward, not the other way around.

> Try it out for real and see what happens, or develop a solid model
> that predicts correctly with historical data, and run it to see what
> happens without hurting real people. I think it will be politically
> easier (and more humanitarian) to develop the model and do it that way.

I don't think the standard needs to be that high. We already have a
Federal Reserve that is trying to inflate the economy but is only
"pushing on a string", so there is a consensus agreeing to their
goal, there is just the lack of a facility able to achieve it.

I think the standard needs to be at least that high if our efforts to fix the system are to have any chance of working. This is the same problem that psychology has got itself into. When the existing theories are inadequate and some crucial idea is missing, predictions are very poor and understanding gets totally confused. After enough time struggling with the deficiencies of understanding, people naturally give up and start lowering their standards -- the sour-grapes syndrome. The whole thing is just too complicated and variable, we might as well just try to salvage what we can. And since they stop trying to improve what they're convinced can't be improved, progress stops.

Printing money will result in that money being saved, invested or
spent. About the only other alternative is burning it or stuffing
it in a mattress, and both of these can be compensated for by
printing more money, in response to monitoring its effects on
the prices of securities, assets and goods. The net effects are
in question, but since many of the costs of businesses are
historical (depreciation, amortization, etc) or nominal (debt
payments) the prospects of businesses will be immediately
improved and the need to layoff workers will be immediately
decreased.

I agree with most of that as far as I'm competent to do so. But the investment part is a problem. This is an age-old problem that economists have always got past by pole-vaulting with their eyes shut. One nobly defers gratification (such as eating) and invests money instead of spending it on goodies. Somehow (pay no attention to that man behind the curtain) not-buying things results in more things being manufactured and sold to people who don't have any money left (they invested it) to buy anything. Oh, and they expect a return on their investments, too. But your approach of printing money at least leaves the investment option open to be ignored. Ideally, I suppose, some of the money would be invested and some would be spent -- with just enough spent to soak up the added production that the investment part could support.

The truth is, according to the historical record (see Rick Marken's post), investment does not drive economic growth. It is necessary to bring production up when demand increases, and that requires expansion of production capabilities which in turn requires investment, but the best place to get investment is from a bank, which can snap its fingers and create just enough money (though the man behind the curtain is wondering where he's going to get the money for interest payments). There's no market for more investment than is needed to meet demand. It can't be used to drive demand -- that's your phenomenon of pushing on a string. If the investment comes from existing money, it has to be taken away from other investments so the macroeconomic picture isn't inmproved. The causal role of investment isn't supported by the facts. And when you think about it, how could it be?

Well, it's just too tempting to pontificate on a subject which I have just finished saying isn't well-enough understood by anyone including me. There are little pieces of an economic model scattered here and there, and it's not hard to quibble about any one little piece. What we need, however, is to quibble about all the pieces as well as finding the missing ones and the right underlying theory of human nature to glue them all together. My specialty is the last-mentioned item. Even if economists don't have a workable model, they do know a lot about some of the pieces of a model and we can't ignore that. But how do we get economists to drop what they think of as a model and start using their knowledge of the pieces to help construct a new one that includes the new pieces and the glue that we can provide? Economic beliefs are just as strong and emotion-generating as religious or political beliefs, and as hard to change. On top of everything else, we have to face the problem that economists think they already understand the system well enough and definitely don't want any new theories.

I wish I had more time to put in on this.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.07..1808 MST)]

Martin Lewitt (2008 1207.1630 MST) --

I think you are getting distracted by the money in thinking about deferral
of consumption.

Well, yes I am. When you broaden the concept to include people putting time and effort into developing new products or doing useful tasks without remuneration, I think the argument begins to get fuzzy. In fact I agree with you about the worth of those non-monetary "investments." Whether paid or not, they are actually what make growth of the economy possible. They're part of what I think of as the real or basic economy, as opposed to the financial superstructure.

I was indeed speaking of the monetary kind of investment, which is the kind usually cited as the reason that people ought to save money instead of spending it, so as to make capital available.

When I mentioned eating, I was making an oblique reference to my own beginner's attempts to construct a model of the economy. In terms of PCT, the real driving force behind any economy is the difference between what people desire (which includes what they actually need to survive) and what they are actually getting. That driving force is left out of all the economic models I have ever seen. "Supply and demand" is the substitute offered, along with indifference curves, and it entails an unrealistic model of the people in the system. "If you build it, they will want it," seems to be the theme. Keynes seemed to say, and believe, that income determines consumption, overlooking or ignoring the fact that for most commodities, people desire a specific amount of them per unit time and would consider an excess to be as bad, though in a different way, as a deficiency. What the heck would I do with 5 breakfasts after I finished the first one? Sell the cold eggs and soggy English muffins to some idiot who would never fall for that again? And what if selling bores me?

People who set their reference levels so high that they can never be attained have something wrong with them, like the people we see in the current epidemic of obesity. The very rich are financially obese, probably for quite similar reasons, and are just as sadly grotesque. Good skillful control is achieved when the control system is acting swiftly and precisely to keep perceptions closely matching whatever fixed or variable reference signals they are receiving from higher systems. In a properly designed system, error signals are never allowed to get very large. This means that reference levels are never set (for long) to unattainable values, although in many cases considerable time may be needed to bring errors to zero. The idea that "A man's reach should exceed his grasp" is a most unfortunate piece of folk wisdom that leads to obsession and chronic disappointment, as well as very poor control.

This rapid-fire correspondence is fun, but I think I'll stop here and leave time for some cogitation. I should really give you time to get up to speed with PCT before throwing a lot of ideas at you. And when I reply too fast, I always realize later what I coulda shoulda said.

As to copies of "papers", what self-respecting economics journal would publish this stuff? You can find some ideas in "Leakage" and if you ask nicely (or even hint at a possible interest), Rick Marken can send you his analysis of the relationship between investment (monetary) and GDP. If you want to look at my modeling attempts I can send the latest program to you if you like, though even Version 5 is just a beginning. I am deliberately not asking Dag Forssell to look through his archived materials because he is already contributing without pay more than is reasonable, but perhaps someone else can put their hands on some materials from discussions on CSGnet.

Best,

Bill P.

One main cause of this positive
feedback is speculation in the market: Players bet on what the market
(i.e., the other players) will do, regardless of the instrinsic (real)
values of the securities they are buying and selling. One suggested
remedy for that is the �Tobin Tax�, simply a very small tax on every
transaction, to dampen that activity.
[From Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1252 MST)]

Ted Cloak
(2008.12.05.0922 MST) –

Not sure how that relates to positive feedback. The one loop I described
has the laying off of workers reducing their income and thus the profits
of businesses, which makes them lay off even more workers, which reduces
profits even more, and so on to extinction. The layoffs are increasing
the error that businesses are trying to decrease. To apply this to the
market, you would have to identify effects of a trader’s actions that
increase (rather than decrease) the error that the trader is trying to
correct by those actions. I think you’re describing a different kind of
problem – a real one, but not positive feedback.

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2008.12.05.09.41]

Bill,

The feedback loop(s) issue has hardly escaped notice, even in the
popular press (maybe it has in the USA, but here it’s been talked about
a lot). It has been mentioned many times in news commentaries
that I have seen over the last few weeks, though its oscillatory
implication have not. The downgoing and upgoing phases seem to be
recognized as having the same cause, but I don’t remember hearing that
fact put together to say “The system will oscillate”, which it wouldn’t
without some nonlinearities that limit the excursions.

The problem is not that nobody has noticed the positive feedback loop
(under the name “vicious (or virtuous) circle”), but that nobody knows
how to get people individually to change behaviour that benefits the
individual in the short term, but that acts against their own interests
in the longer term when adopted by the mass of people. An individual
can perceive the immediate benefits of the action quite simply (“I have
more money to spend”), but must analyze the long-term effect on the
same controlled perceptions. The result of the analysis is only in
imagination until the reality comes along and the analyst can say “I
told you so”, whereas the result of the individual action in the short
term becomes a real perception quite soon. When an imagined perception
is different from the equivalent sensor-based perception, I suspect the
sensor-based one usually wins (except perhaps in a schizophrenic).

Do you propose a solution to this problem? If so, maybe the same kind
of solution might be applicable to the problem of the similar “vicious
circle” of lowering taxes. In the meantime, most governments (excluding
the Canadian) seem to be acting in a way calculated to change the
expectations of individuals (such as bank directors and mortgage
holders) so as to reduce the positive feedback effect (as Keynes told
them to do).

Incidentally, for PR purposes, a “positive” feedback loop is likely to
be interpreted as a “beneficial” feedback loop.

Martin

···

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.05.0444 MST)]

This is a letter that needs to be conveyed to as many people who make
economic decisions as possible. OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM CONTAINS
DESTABILIZING FEEDBACK LOOPS THAT CAN DESTROY IT. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO REMOVE THEM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

This is a true time bomb. It is perfectly obvious, and it is to my
shame
and that of everyone who understands the dynamics of control systems
that
it was not noticed, publicized, and corrected long ago. It is very
simple
and we are watching it operate every day that this recession
deepens.

Its cause is some set of policies or principles that are thought to be
necessary to maintain the viability of a business, but which, when
generally adopted, have the effect of exaggerating swings in the market
and, if widespread enough, throw the market into a state of dynamic
instability that feeds on itself. Increases in market activity cause a
piling-on effect which drive the increases even further and induce more
frenzied market activity. The same underlying relationships work the
other way, too: when the market peaks and starts downward, this cause
the
enthusiasm to wane and the market activity to slow down, and the
slowdown
causes an even more dampening effect, which makes the slowdown
accelerate. Whichever way the market tends to change, the change is
exaggerated by this feedback effect. The initial result when the amount
of feedback is small is that the economy displays
“boom-and-bust” cycles of relatively small amplitude, which die
out after a time. When the degree of this effect becomes large
enough, the swings start to get larger and can enter a region in which
a
runaway effect occurs. Then the only way to stop the growing
oscillations
is for something in the system to be damaged enough to reduce the
feedback effect below the fatal threshold of sensitivity.

One obvious destabilizing effect we are seeing right now is that
companies faced with falling sales are laying off parts of their
workforces to reduce costs and preserve their net income. As the number
of employed persons decreases, the total income of the average consumer
falls, so there is less money to spend on goods and services – the
very
spending that is the source of income for the companies who are laying
off workers (and each others’ customers). So we have the situation in
which the attempt of companies to reduce expenses and restore their
income to profitable levels has the effect of reducing, not increasing,
the total net income of all companies. That leads to an increase in the
attempts to reduce expenses, and so on. *If enough companies follow
the
same policy, there can be only one outcome: total collapse.

  • This is probably not the only destabilizing feature in the basic
    relationships that make up our economic systems. It is only one obvious
    feedback loop with the wrong sign. This is known technically as a positive
    feedback loop, one in which small changes lead to
    larger
    changes, in contrast with the negative feedback loop in which
    small perturbations are negated by feedback effects and are immediately
    smoothed out. In popular usage “positive feedback” means
    encouragement and approval, but if encouragement occurs only when one
    is
    doing better and is withdrawn when one begins to do less well, the
    seeds
    of true positive feedback have been planted; at the first sign of doing
    less well, approval will decrease, and the resulting lessening of
    encouragement will cause performance to decrease even more, and so on
    to
    disaster. What works on the way up continues to work on the way down.
    Changes in either direction are exaggerated by positive feedback, and
    the
    result is instability. If there is enough instability, the system will
    destroy itself.

The cure for positive feedback and its destructive effects is to ferret
out and remove all the positive feedback loops. There should be little
resistance to doing this, because what will be revealed is the clear
fact
that actions intended to improve matters are actually making them
worse.
Any sane person will cease such actions even if their undesirability is
not immediately explained or understood. Once we step back and look at
the overall relationships, the instability that is caused by a wrong
response to problems becomes obvious. Then the main issue is seen
clearly: what do we need to change to prevent this sort of
destabilizing
feedback from occurring?

Stabilizing the economic system does not require telling people what to
buy or what to sell, or for how much, or to whom. It requires
intervention only when a reaction to a change in economic activity,
either upward or downward, results in amplification of the change
rather
than smoothing it out. Just why this amplification occurs has to be
studied so the correct adjustment can be made. It could be only that
there is too much reaction to a change. It could be that the reaction
is
too much delayed, so what would have been a stablizing reaction if it
had
occurred right away becomes destablizing when applied too late. Or it
could be that the intuitive reaction to a problem is exactly the
reaction
that will make it worse, showing that there is a mistaken understanding
of how one part of the system affects other parts.

Reaching an understanding of instability in the economic system is no
longer an abstract goal of only academic interest. It is a necessity
for
our survival. It requires a massive investigation and the efforts of
many
competent scientists who know how to analyze and model large systems –
a
Manhattan Project that will finally unravel the mysteries of how the
economic system works. We need to understand exactly what kind of
technical public-sector interventions can be brought to bear when the
free market goes into free fall, without infringing on rights or
imposing
micromanagement on individual entrepreneurs and consumers. The answer,
at
times, could be as simple as a slowing of changes similar to what the
stock market imposes when panic threatens an individual stock.
Sometimes
it could require rulings about policies which, if followed by enough
transacting parties, threaten the entire system. Some existing
regulations might prove to cause more of the problems they were
intended
to lessen.

The only way to find the answers we need is to construct a working
model
of the economy, which requires studying it in sufficient detail to
construct that model, and then, once consensus is reached, using the
model first to reproduce the economic events that are so troublesome to
everyone, and then looking for the minimum changes required to prevent
them from ever happening again.

Please forward this letter wherever you think it might do some
good.

Bill Powers

[From Fred Nickols (2008.12.05.1429 MST)]

I meant to mention this in response to Bill’s original post but
forgot: I believe the difficulty to which Martin refers has a name in system
dynamics; namely, “The Tragedy of the Commons.” I’ll do some more digging and
see what I can turn up. Maybe that notion offers some clues as to how to get a
grip on things.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting, LLC

nickols@att.net

www.nickols.us

image00217.jpg

"Assistance at a Distance"

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Taylor
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 2:26 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: PCT and economics: an emergency

[Martin Taylor 2008.12.05.09.41]

Bill,

The feedback loop(s) issue has hardly escaped notice, even in the popular press
(maybe it has in the USA, but here it’s been talked about a lot). It has been
mentioned many times in news commentaries that I have seen over the last few
weeks, though its oscillatory implication have not. The downgoing and upgoing
phases seem to be recognized as having the same cause, but I don’t remember
hearing that fact put together to say “The system will oscillate”,
which it wouldn’t without some nonlinearities that limit the excursions.

The problem is not that nobody has noticed the positive feedback loop (under
the name “vicious (or virtuous) circle”), but that nobody knows how
to get people individually to change behaviour that benefits the individual in
the short term, but that acts against their own interests in the longer term
when adopted by the mass of people. An individual can perceive the immediate
benefits of the action quite simply (“I have more money to spend”),
but must analyze the long-term effect on the same controlled perceptions. The
result of the analysis is only in imagination until the reality comes along and
the analyst can say “I told you so”, whereas the result of the
individual action in the short term becomes a real perception quite soon. When
an imagined perception is different from the equivalent sensor-based
perception, I suspect the sensor-based one usually wins (except perhaps in a
schizophrenic).

Do you propose a solution to this problem? If so, maybe the same kind of
solution might be applicable to the problem of the similar “vicious
circle” of lowering taxes. In the meantime, most governments (excluding
the Canadian) seem to be acting in a way calculated to change the expectations
of individuals (such as bank directors and mortgage holders) so as to reduce
the positive feedback effect (as Keynes told them to do).

Incidentally, for PR purposes, a “positive” feedback loop is likely
to be interpreted as a “beneficial” feedback loop.

Martin

[From Bill Powers
(2008.12.05.0444 MST)]
This is a letter that needs to be conveyed to as many people who make economic
decisions as possible. OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM CONTAINS DESTABILIZING FEEDBACK
LOOPS THAT CAN DESTROY IT. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REMOVE THEM AS QUICKLY
AS POSSIBLE.
This is a true time bomb. It is perfectly obvious, and it is to my shame and
that of everyone who understands the dynamics of control systems that it was
not noticed, publicized, and corrected long ago. It is very simple and we are
watching it operate every day that this recession deepens.
Its cause is some set of policies or principles that are thought to be
necessary to maintain the viability of a business, but which, when generally
adopted, have the effect of exaggerating swings in the market and, if
widespread enough, throw the market into a state of dynamic instability that
feeds on itself. Increases in market activity cause a piling-on effect which
drive the increases even further and induce more frenzied market activity. The
same underlying relationships work the other way, too: when the market peaks
and starts downward, this cause the enthusiasm to wane and the market activity
to slow down, and the slowdown causes an even more dampening effect, which
makes the slowdown accelerate. Whichever way the market tends to change, the
change is exaggerated by this feedback effect. The initial result when the
amount of feedback is small is that the economy displays
“boom-and-bust” cycles of relatively small amplitude, which die out
after a time. When the degree of this effect becomes large enough, the
swings start to get larger and can enter a region in which a runaway effect
occurs. Then the only way to stop the growing oscillations is for something in
the system to be damaged enough to reduce the feedback effect below the fatal
threshold of sensitivity.
One obvious destabilizing effect we are seeing right now is that companies
faced with falling sales are laying off parts of their workforces to reduce
costs and preserve their net income. As the number of employed persons
decreases, the total income of the average consumer falls, so there is less
money to spend on goods and services – the very spending that is the source of
income for the companies who are laying off workers (and each others’
customers). So we have the situation in which the attempt of companies to
reduce expenses and restore their income to profitable levels has the effect of
reducing, not increasing, the total net income of all companies. That leads to
an increase in the attempts to reduce expenses, and so on. *If enough
companies follow the same policy, there can be only one outcome: total
collapse.*This is probably not the only destabilizing feature in the basic relationships
that make up our economic systems. It is only one obvious feedback loop with
the wrong sign. This is known technically as a positive feedback loop,
one in which small changes lead to larger changes, in contrast with the negative
feedback loop in which small perturbations are negated by feedback effects and
are immediately smoothed out. In popular usage “positive feedback”
means encouragement and approval, but if encouragement occurs only when one is
doing better and is withdrawn when one begins to do less well, the seeds of
true positive feedback have been planted; at the first sign of doing less well,
approval will decrease, and the resulting lessening of encouragement will cause
performance to decrease even more, and so on to disaster. What works on the way
up continues to work on the way down. Changes in either direction are
exaggerated by positive feedback, and the result is instability. If there is
enough instability, the system will destroy itself.

The cure for positive feedback and its destructive effects is to ferret out and
remove all the positive feedback loops. There should be little resistance to
doing this, because what will be revealed is the clear fact that actions
intended to improve matters are actually making them worse. Any sane person
will cease such actions even if their undesirability is not immediately
explained or understood. Once we step back and look at the overall
relationships, the instability that is caused by a wrong response to problems
becomes obvious. Then the main issue is seen clearly: what do we need to change
to prevent this sort of destabilizing feedback from occurring?

Stabilizing the economic system does not require telling people what to buy or
what to sell, or for how much, or to whom. It requires intervention only when a
reaction to a change in economic activity, either upward or downward, results
in amplification of the change rather than smoothing it out. Just why this
amplification occurs has to be studied so the correct adjustment can be made.
It could be only that there is too much reaction to a change. It could be that
the reaction is too much delayed, so what would have been a stablizing reaction
if it had occurred right away becomes destablizing when applied too late. Or it
could be that the intuitive reaction to a problem is exactly the reaction that
will make it worse, showing that there is a mistaken understanding of how one
part of the system affects other parts.

Reaching an understanding of instability in the economic system is no longer an
abstract goal of only academic interest. It is a necessity for our survival. It
requires a massive investigation and the efforts of many competent scientists
who know how to analyze and model large systems – a Manhattan Project that
will finally unravel the mysteries of how the economic system works. We need to
understand exactly what kind of technical public-sector interventions can be
brought to bear when the free market goes into free fall, without infringing on
rights or imposing micromanagement on individual entrepreneurs and consumers.
The answer, at times, could be as simple as a slowing of changes similar to
what the stock market imposes when panic threatens an individual stock.
Sometimes it could require rulings about policies which, if followed by enough
transacting parties, threaten the entire system. Some existing regulations
might prove to cause more of the problems they were intended to lessen.

The only way to find the answers we need is to construct a working model of the
economy, which requires studying it in sufficient detail to construct that
model, and then, once consensus is reached, using the model first to reproduce
the economic events that are so troublesome to everyone, and then looking for
the minimum changes required to prevent them from ever happening again.

Please forward this letter wherever you think it might do some good.

Bill Powers

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1350)]

Bill Powers (2008.12.05.0444 MST)–

This is a letter that needs to be conveyed to as many people who make
economic decisions as possible. OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM CONTAINS
DESTABILIZING FEEDBACK LOOPS THAT CAN DESTROY IT. WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT
HOW TO REMOVE THEM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

I think we already know which policies reduce the gain on this positive feedback loop considerably, in particular, unemployment insurance (which maintains the laid off workers as consumers) and government jobs programs (similar result; unemployed people become consumers – and producers as well). I also think this positive feedback loop was damped by government wealth re-distribution policies, mainly highly progressive taxation, which redistributed wealth (through government spending) from the the rich to the poor rather than from the poor to the rich, as it is done now. Conservatives have been dismantling these damping mechanisms since the mid-1970s (Carter was a conservative Democrat, economically – loved his work in the Middle East though). So the positive feedback effects will have a bit more bite.

The only way to find the answers we need is to construct a working model
of the economy, which requires studying it in sufficient detail to
construct that model, and then, once consensus is reached, using the
model first to reproduce the economic events that are so troublesome to
everyone, and then looking for the minimum changes required to prevent
them from ever happening again.

I agree that that actual answers can only be gotten from a working model that fits the data. But I don’t think that will solve our problem. Just understanding – or even accepting an explanation of – how something works doesn’t mean that one will then act “appropriately”. I, for example, understand how interpersonal conflict works but I still fight back – and fight hard – when someone hurts – or tries to hurt – someone I care for (like myself;-); at least, before Icome to my senses. And economics is an area where personal beliefs seem to always trump facts. That’s why we’re in the situation we’re in now. The progressive economic policies that existed from FDR through Nixon made for a pretty healthy economy in the US. But then the free market, “taxes are always bad”, facts be damned ideologues took over and, voila, catastrophe. I think, rather than models, the only way to fix things up is to require all media outlets to have as many progressive as conservative voices on the air. I think that’s called the “Fairness Doctrine”.

The fact is that this positive feedback loop will be limited by the fact that there are control systems – people – all over the place who will be trying things to keep the economy from going belly up completely. So eventually they will try what has worked before – wealth redistribution from rich to poor rather than in the current direction;-)

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1505 MST)]

Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1350) --

The fact is that this positive feedback loop will be limited by the fact that there are control systems -- people -- all over the place who will be trying things to keep the economy from going belly up completely. So eventually they will try what has worked before -- wealth redistribution from rich to poor rather than in the current direction;-)

I don't see how that will eliminate the positive feedback loops -- just moving money around doesn't change the relationships, only the values of variables. The block diagram remains the same, doesn't it?

What I'm afraid of is that the people who are trying to keep the economy from crashing don't understand the loops, and what they try to do may just make things oscillate more. The problem, I suspect, is not really with the "real" economy but with the financial superstructure, which has far too much effect on what people actually do to make, sell, and buy things. The automakers may be an exception, since they have been making the wrong products, but in most cases the problems originate on Wall Street and in banks, not out where people actually work and live. The way money is handled screws up everything.

I'm sure Martin Taylor is right, that everyone knows about positive feedback and instability, but I don't think everyone knows how powerful a good working model can be in (a) helping us understand how a complex system works and (b) helping us figure out what do do when it doesn't work right. You can argue until you've out of breath, but a working model can show what's wrong instead of just describing it in qualitative words. It's especially powerful in showing people what will happen when some proposed action or change is carried out, and then showing that the model predicted correctly when people refused to believe it and went ahead anyway. Economic theory can't do that -- it's mainly good for predicting what has already happened.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1440)]

Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1505 MST)–

Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1350) –

The fact is that this positive feedback loop will be limited by the fact that there are control systems – people – all over the place who will be trying things to keep the economy from going belly up completely. So eventually they will try what has worked before – wealth redistribution from rich to poor rather than in the current direction;-)

I don’t see how that will eliminate the positive feedback loops – just moving money around doesn’t change the relationships, only the values of variables. The block diagram remains the same, doesn’t it?

Sure. But I was assuming that you really can’t eliminate the positive feedback loop; all you can really do is damp it. The loop you are talking about results from manager’s laying off people because demand for their product has declined. This is reasonable at the individual business level but at the aggregate level, when lots of managers do this, the result is positive feedback; the layoffs create further declines in demand, the declines that led to the layoffs in the first place: positive feedback. I don’t see how this loop can be eliminated, at least not in a “free” society like ours. I was just suggesting that the gain of this loop can be reduced by giving the laid off workers income so that they can keep consuming. So the layoffs create little – perhaps zero – decline in demand. So the positive feedback effect of layoffs on layoffs is reduced or even eliminated. I’m sure this is easy to quantify and model; maybe I’ll try it when I get home.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1720 MST)]

Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1440) –

I don’t see how that will eliminate the positive feedback loops –
just moving money around doesn’t change the relationships, only the
values of variables. The block diagram remains the same, doesn’t
it?

Sure. But I was assuming that you really can’t eliminate the
positive feedback loop; all you can really do is damp it.

Well, whether you can or not, that’s what I want to do. I want to find
something else that managers can do instead that will actually work. What
they are doing now doesn’t work, and you’d think they would stop doing it
when it has an effect opposite to the one they want, but they don’t, so
we need to find out how this can be.
When only a few of them do it there’s not much effect – it’s diluted by
all those who don’t do it. I lay off your customers but you don’t lay off
mine, so it works for me. But when too many do it, the net effect is to
lay off too many customers and the effect spreads and gets worse. That’s
what we need to fix, by altering some of the business principles that
people govern their behavior by. We can do that either by educating them
or by passing laws, like a law saying “This is a Blue Condition day
and you can’t lay anybody off – do something else instead.” To
educate them we need to be able to show them a model that explains why
they’re getting a result opposite to the one they want. Then maybe – duh
– they’ll stop doing that stupid thing. But it would be more effective
if we could figure out something else for them to do that would
work.

It’s just a system of relationships. We can design it any way we
like.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Ted Cloak
(2008.05.1811 MST)]

Well, positive feedback goes on when the
balloon is expanding as well as when it is collapsing: At t1 players all
buy tulips, say. At t2 the price of tulips goes up since everybody is
buying. At t3 everybody decides players are buying, so price will
continue to rise. So at t4 players all buy tulips. Etc. (Until
somebody points out that tulips are way overpriced, so everybody tries to sell,
and irrational exuberance turns to its opposite.)

For a better explanation, from Fall 2007, look
to Bird and Fortune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g.

Ted

···

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1252 MST)]

Ted Cloak (2008.12.05.0922 MST) –

One main cause of this positive feedback
is speculation in the market: Players bet on what the market (i.e., the other
players) will do, regardless of the instrinsic (real) values of the securities
they are buying and selling. One suggested remedy for that is the
Tobin Tax, simply a very small tax on every transaction, to dampen
that activity.

Not sure how that relates to positive feedback. The one loop I described has
the laying off of workers reducing their income and thus the profits of
businesses, which makes them lay off even more workers, which reduces profits
even more, and so on to extinction. The layoffs are increasing the error that
businesses are trying to decrease. To apply this to the market, you would have
to identify effects of a trader’s actions that increase (rather than decrease)
the error that the trader is trying to correct by those actions. I think you’re
describing a different kind of problem – a real one, but not positive
feedback.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1730)]

[From Bruce Nevin (2008.12.05.2008 EST)]

Maybe there’s an opportunity to participate in this incursion into the entrenched view of things:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/opinion/28brooks.html

Sure, the writer of this op-ed piece is mired in CogPsych TOTE thinking,

Brooks is mired in neo-con ignorance. He’s kind of genial and he tries to be funny. But he’s so far from understanding how the economy (or anything else) works it’s not funny at all. It’s Brooks and his ilk who got us into this catastrophe in the first place. If they had any intellectual (or any other kind of) integrity at all they would commit hari kari.

Best

Rick

···

and the term “behavioralist economics” pushes a rhetorical hot button for any PCTer well schooled in the proper status of behaviorism (the similarity is only lexical), but there’s more going on here–and they have Obama’s ear.

/B


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1740)]

Bill Powers (2008.12.05.1720 MST)–

Rick Marken (2008.12.05.1440) –

Sure. But I was assuming that you really can’t eliminate the
positive feedback loop; all you can really do is damp it.

Well, whether you can or not, that’s what I want to do. I want to find
something else that managers can do instead that will actually work.

We can do that either by educating them
or by passing laws, like a law saying “This is a Blue Condition day
and you can’t lay anybody off – do something else instead.”

I think CSGNet is a clear demonstration of how ineffective education can be. And I don’t think you’d have a lot of luck passing a law like that – even I would vote against it. No, I think policies like unemployment, negative income tax, retraining and progressive taxation have been shown to work just fine. I think our economic problem come not from people not knowing what to do – history provides a nice model of what to do – it comes from some people just being very, very greedy.

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.06.0944 MST)]

Brooks is mired in neo-con ignorance. He's kind of genial and he tries to be funny. But he's so far from understanding how the economy (or anything else) works it's not funny at all. It's Brooks and his ilk who got us into this catastrophe in the first place. If they had any intellectual (or any other kind of) integrity at all they would commit hari kari.

Could you pick some examples of that out of his article and analze what is wrong with them? Not having read the article yet, I don't know what it is that you're objecting to.

Best,

Bill P.