Successor to CSG-net

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.24.14:17 ET)]

Friends,

There have been complaints over the years about the way the listserv software presents CSG-net email to us. If you have such concerns, please sing out so we can summarize them all in one place for consideration.

Conversely, are there missing features that would benefit us if we had them?

···

Chad Green (2017.08.23 14:56 EDT)–

Chad, you recommend Listserv 16.0 “if a sponsoring organization were available.” We would then come under the institutional license and would not have to pay the considerable cost of a license or the overhead of administering a server.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp

‘Listserv lite’ is cheaper, but lacks some features we want.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_checklist.asp

I’m thinking particularly of searchable archives and topics. Sublists and content filtering would also be desirable. The limit on number of users might not be of immediate concern, but could come back to bite us. (Couldn’t find a number; ‘listserv lite free’ is limited to 10.)

Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

[From Chad Green (2017.08.24.16:38 ET)]

BN: Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

CG: Because Listserv is mailing list software (vs forum software):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mailing_list_software

“LISTSERV Lite Free Edition is a freeware version of LISTSERV Lite, limited to a maximum of 10 mailing lists with up to 500 subscribers each. It is available
for users who want to run hobby or interest-based email lists and do not derive a profit, directly or indirectly, from using the software.� Link:
http://www.lsoft.com/download/listservfree.asp

Best,

Chad

Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575

···

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.24.14:17 ET)]

Friends,

There have been complaints over the years about the way the listserv software presents CSG-net email to us. If you have such concerns, please sing out so we can
summarize them all in one place for consideration.

Conversely, are there missing features that would benefit us if we had them?


Chad Green (2017.08.23 14:56 EDT)–

Chad, you recommend Listserv 16.0 “if a sponsoring organization were available.” We would then come under the institutional license and would not have to pay
the considerable cost of a license or the overhead of administering a server.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp

‘Listserv lite’ is cheaper, but lacks some features we want.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_checklist.asp

I’m thinking particularly of searchable archives and topics. Sublists and content filtering would also be desirable. The limit on number of users might not be
of immediate concern, but could come back to bite us. (Couldn’t find a number; ‘listserv lite free’ is limited to 10.)

Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

[From Rupert Young (2017.06.25 16.15)]

  I think the main criterion is that we can migrate the csgnet

posts on to the new forum. This should be possible with a forum
like MyBB. It is free and would allow us to easily search the
entire back catalogue of csgnet, and also to organise them into
specific categories as required. It would save a great deal of
duplication that has an interminable waste of everybody’s time on
the csgnet mailing list.

···

**Regards,
Rupert
**

On 24/08/2017 21:38, Chad T. Green wrote:

        [From

Chad Green (2017.08.24.16:38 ET)]

Â

        BN:

Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this
survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

Â

        CG:

Because Listserv is mailing list software (vs forum
software):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mailing_list_software

Â

        “LISTSERV

Lite Free Edition is a freeware version of LISTSERV Lite,
limited to a maximum of 10 mailing lists with up to 500
subscribers each. It is available for users who want to run
hobby or interest-based email lists and do not derive a
profit, directly or indirectly, from using the software.�
 Link:
http://www.lsoft.com/download/listservfree.asp

Â

Best,

Chad

Â

        Chad

T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575

Â

From:
Bruce Nevin
Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:46 PM
Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
Successor to CSG-net

Â

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.24.14:17 ET)]

Â

Friends,

Â

            There

have been complaints over the years about the way the
listserv software presents CSG-net email to us. If you
have such concerns, please sing out so we can summarize
them all in one place for consideration.

Â

            Conversely,

are there missing features that would benefit us if we
had them?


Â

            Chad

Green (2017.08.23 14:56 EDT)–

Â

            Chad,

you recommend Listserv 16.0 “if a sponsoring
organization were available.” We would then come under
the institutional license and would not have to pay the
considerable cost of a license or the overhead of
administering a server.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp

Â

            'Listserv

lite’ is cheaper, but lacks some features we want.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_checklist.asp

            I'm

thinking particularly of searchable archives and topics.
Sublists and content filtering would also be desirable.
The limit on number of users might not be of immediate
concern, but could come back to bite us. (Couldn’t find
a number; ‘listserv lite free’ is limited to 10.)

Â

              Do you

have any idea why listserv is not included in this
survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

Â

Â

mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com
Sent:
To:CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu
Subject:

[From Rick Marken (2017.08.25.1200)]

Rupert Young (2017.06.25 16.15)

RY: I think the main criterion is that we can migrate the csgnet posts on to the new forum. This should be possible with a forum like MyBB. It is free and would allow us to easily search the entire back catalogue of csgnet, and also to organise them into specific categories as required. It would save a great deal of duplication that has an interminable waste of everybody's time on the csgnet mailing list.

RM: Completely agree! Who will take the lead on this! How about you Rupert?
Best
Rick

···

Regards,
Rupert

On 24/08/2017 21:38, Chad T. Green wrote:

[From Chad Green (2017.08.24.16:38 ET)]

Â

BN: Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?

<Comparison of Internet forum software - Wikipedia; Comparison of Internet forum software - Wikipedia

Â

CG: Because Listserv is mailing list software (vs forum software):

<List of mailing list software - Wikipedia; List of mailing list software - Wikipedia

Â

“LISTSERV Lite Free Edition is a freeware version of LISTSERV Lite, limited to a maximum of 10 mailing lists with up to 500 subscribers each. It is available for users who want to run hobby or interest-based email lists and do not derive a profit, directly or indirectly, from using the software.�  Link: <Download LISTSERV Lite Free Edition

Â

Best,

Chad

Â

Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: <tel:(571)%20252-1486>571-252-1486
Fax: <tel:(571)%20252-1575>571-252-1575

Â

From: Bruce Nevin [<mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com>mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:46 PM
To: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) <mailto:CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu><CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu>
Subject: Successor to CSG-net

Â

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.24.14:17 ET)]

Â

Friends,

Â

There have been complaints over the years about the way the listserv software presents CSG-net email to us. If you have such concerns, please sing out so we can summarize them all in one place for consideration.

Â

Conversely, are there missing features that would benefit us if we had them?

_________

Â

Chad Green (2017.08.23 14:56 EDT)--

Â

Chad, you recommend Listserv 16.0 "if a sponsoring organization were available." We would then come under the institutional license and would not have to pay the considerable cost of a license or the overhead of administering a server.

<LISTSERV License Sizes and Pricing; LISTSERV License Sizes and Pricing

Â

'Listserv lite' is cheaper, but lacks some features we want.

<LISTSERV Feature Checklist; LISTSERV Feature Checklist

I'm thinking particularly of searchable archives and topics. Sublists and content filtering would also be desirable. The limit on number of users might not be of immediate concern, but could come back to bite us. (Couldn't find a number; 'listserv lite free' is limited to 10.)

Â

Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?

<Comparison of Internet forum software - Wikipedia; Comparison of Internet forum software - Wikipedia

Â

Â

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

There are several things I think need to be understood about this.

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the cards.

The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.

What is difference between listserve and forum software?

I see bbPress as the first item in the forum list. I see that this is a plug-in to WordPress, and that a few functions are handled using plugins, which are likely to be plentiul for this platform.

Just over two years ago I had the bright idea of developing a website that could work as a complete course for PCT. I purchased and hosted (I host many sites now) www.howwefunction.com. My daughter Karin was webmaster for two Palo Alto schools and proficient with WordPress and two other dominant but even more sophisticated platforms. So I installed WordPress at my site read up on WordPress and went to work using a theme and setting up the menu structure just so.

I understand that WordPress is dominant for sites on the Internet and has outstanding support. I have been notified numerous times that my site software has been updated. I pay a small sum every year to a WordPress function to prevent spam from reaching the site. The site is fully functional, but my effort stalled before it was populated and it is now dormant. I don’t mention it anywhere.

My regard for WordPress is high, so when I see that bbPress is a plugin for WordPress, my confidence gets to be high for that too.

I conclude that the deal is that I can install bbPress at howwefuncion.com, and CSGnet can be so installed at any site that is powered by WordPress.

So if I understand the overall scheme correctly, IAPCT could select a domain name, host it at a service provider, install WordPress, and the bbPress plugin.

Now CSGnet can migrate here. I will no doubt still archive CSGnet using my good old Eudora, but an original archive will gradually develop going forward at the new site with the new software.

Chad, what is different about Listserv software? How and where installed?

Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and MyBB?

No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions need answers.

Best to all,

Dag

···

[Rupert Young (2017.06.25 16.15)]
I think the main criterion is that we can migrate the csgnet posts on to the new forum. This should be possible with a forum like MyBB. It is free and would allow us to easily search the entire back catalogue of csgnet, and also to organise them into specific categories as required. It would save a great deal of duplication that has an interminable waste of everybody’s time on the csgnet mailing list.
Regards,
Rupert
On 24/08/2017 21:38, Chad T. Green wrote:

[From Chad Green (2017.08.24.16:38 ET)]
Â
BN: Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software
Â
CG: Because Listserv is mailing list software (vs forum software):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mailing_list_software
Â
“LISTSERV Lite Free Edition is a freeware version of LISTSERV Lite, limited to a maximum of 10 mailing lists with up to 500 subscribers each. It is available for users who want to run hobby or interest-based email lists and do not derive a profit, directly or indirectly, from using the software.�  Link: http://www.lsoft.com/download/listservfree.asp
Â
Best,
Chad
Â
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
Â
From: Bruce Nevin [mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:46 PM
To: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu
Subject: Successor to CSG-net

Â

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.24.14:17 ET)]

Â

Friends,

Â

There have been complaints over the years about the way the listserv software presents CSG-net email to us. If you have such concerns, please sing out so we can summarize them all in one place for consideration.

Â

Conversely, are there missing features that would benefit us if we had them?


Â

Chad Green (2017.08.23 14:56 EDT)–

Â

Chad, you recommend Listserv 16.0 “if a sponsoring organization were available.” We would then come under the institutional license and would not have to pay the considerable cost of a license or the overhead of administering a server.
http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp

Â

‘Listserv lite’ is cheaper, but lacks some features we want.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_checklist.asp

I’m thinking particularly of searchable archives and topics. Sublists and content filtering would also be desirable. The limit on number of users might not be of immediate concern, but could come back to bite us. (Couldn’t find a number; ‘listserv lite free’ is limited to 10.)

Â

Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

Â

Â

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

There are several things I think need to be understood about
this.

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It
seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the
effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the
cards.

The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built
into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance
to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.

What is difference between listserve and forum software?

I see bbPress as the first item in the forum list. I see that this is a
plug-in to WordPress, and that a few functions are handled using plugins,
which are likely to be plentiul for this platform.

Just over two years ago I had the bright idea of developing a website
that could work as a complete course for PCT. I purchased and hosted (I
host many sites now)

www.howwefunction.com
. My daughter Karin was webmaster for two Palo
Alto schools and proficient with WordPress and two other dominant but
even more sophisticated platforms. So I installed WordPress at my site
read up on WordPress and went to work using a theme and setting up the
menu structure just so.

I understand that WordPress is dominant for sites on the Internet and has
outstanding support. I have been notified numerous times that my site
software has been updated. I pay a small sum every year to a WordPress
function to prevent spam from reaching the site. The site is fully
functional, but my effort stalled before it was populated and it is now
dormant. I don’t mention it anywhere.

My regard for WordPress is high, so when I see that bbPress is a plugin
for WordPress, my confidence gets to be high for that too.

I conclude that the deal is that I can install bbPress at
howwefuncion.com, and CSGnet can be so installed at any site that is
powered by WordPress.

So if I understand the overall scheme correctly, IAPCT could select a
domain name, host it at a service provider, install WordPress, and the
bbPress plugin.

Now CSGnet can migrate here. I will no doubt still archive CSGnet using
my good old Eudora, but an original archive will gradually develop going
forward at the new site with the new software.

Chad, what is different about Listserv software? How and where
installed?

Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and
MyBB?

No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions
need answers.

Best to all,

Dag

···

[Rupert Young (2017.06.25
16.15)]
I think the main criterion is that we can migrate the csgnet posts on to
the new forum. This should be possible with a forum like MyBB. It is free
and would allow us to easily search the entire back catalogue of csgnet,
and also to organise them into specific categories as required. It would
save a great deal of duplication that has an interminable waste of�
everybody’s time on the csgnet mailing list.
Regards,
Rupert
On 24/08/2017 21:38, Chad T. Green wrote:

[From Chad Green
(2017.08.24.16:38 ET)]
�
BN: Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this
survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

�
CG: Because Listserv is mailing list software (vs forum software):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mailing_list_software

�
“LISTSERV Lite Free Edition is a freeware version of LISTSERV Lite,
limited to a maximum of 10 mailing lists with up to 500 subscribers each.
It is available for users who want to run hobby or interest-based email
lists and do not derive a profit, directly or indirectly, from using the
software.�? � Link:

http://www.lsoft.com/download/listservfree.asp

�
Best,
Chad
�
Chad T. Green, PMP
Research Office
Loudoun County Public Schools
21000 Education Court
Ashburn, VA 20148
Voice: 571-252-1486
Fax: 571-252-1575
�
From: Bruce Nevin
[mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:46 PM
To: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu
Subject: Successor to CSG-net

�

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.24.14:17 ET)]

�

Friends,

�

There have been complaints over the years about the way the listserv
software presents CSG-net email to us. If you have such concerns, please
sing out so we can summarize them all in one place for
consideration.

�

Conversely, are there missing features that would benefit us if we had
them?


�

Chad Green (2017.08.23 14:56 EDT)–

�

Chad, you recommend� Listserv 16.0 “if a sponsoring organization
were available.” We would then come under the institutional license
and would not have to pay the considerable cost of a license or the
overhead of administering a server.

http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_license.asp

�

‘Listserv lite’ is cheaper, but lacks some features we want.


http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv_checklist.asp

I’m thinking particularly of searchable archives and topics. Sublists and
content filtering would also be desirable. The limit on number of users
might not be of immediate concern, but could come back to bite us.
(Couldn’t find a number; ‘listserv lite free’ is limited to 10.)

�

Do you have any idea why listserv is not included in this survey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software

�

�

[From Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the cards.

I disagree. I think it is very possible. Although it will require writing an application to do it, the migration process would be largely automatic. The thread issue may just mean that some threads are split to some degree, but I don't see that as a great problem. I did start looking at this with a Java application and just need to run a few tests to conform it is technically viable.

The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.

Your Eudora archive is a great resource, and would be used for the migration, so the work you put into has been invaluable and would not be wasted. It would be transferred to the forum and would allow a much easier search. Even when you start typing a title for a new topic it would come up with previous similar threads.

Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and MyBB?

The trouble with bbPress is that it sits within wordpress and is governed by the wordpress site themes and formatting. For example, it would be squashed in one part of the screen if there are wordpress sidebars. Also the forum data is recorded in the existing wordpress database tables which makes it very difficult to administer.

I think MyBB is much better as it is a dedicated forum application with its own database and tables rather than having to adhere to the constraints of a different application.

It's fairly straightforward to install, and I've done a test of it here http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions need answers.

I am volunteering to do it, and welcome any others who would like to take part.

Regards,
Rupert

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.26 12:10 PDT)]

Thanks Rupert! Thanks for the extra info and perspective. I am sold.

I made a duplicate of the iapct.org site (on my hard disk) and have made some changes given some assumptions I make about the new forum.

Note that these changes are merely to illustrate what I think might be. It is super easy for me to restore the site to what it was a few hours back.

Seems to me that a logical place for the new forum is at www.iapct.org, the official IAPCT website. Since the organization’s name has officially been changed from CSG to IAPCT, I suppose a similar change should be made to the discussion group.

I have just created two new folders at the IAPCT.org website. One called CSGnet is suggested as the location for a page to provide some continuity, explanation, and a pointer to the new forum, and one called FORUM would be the location for the forum itself. The former holds a draft and the second holds a pointer, for Rupert to edit and remove, respectively.

Rupert will have FTP access to both of these folders so he can update the CSGnet page and install MyBB in the FORUM folder. So Rupert will be our Forum Master.

Rupert can download the entire forum as it evolves from the FORUM folder to his hard disk, and so can I. This way, we will not be completely dependent on the reliability of the hosting company, PowWeb.com.

Some time ago, I remember learning that an address such as

[http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

](http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/)is a way to point directly to the folder “forum” at the site perceptualrobots.com.

I must be missing something because right now http://forum.iapct.org does not point to the forum folder, but rather brings up the site’s index page.

Have I understood correctly, and does this make sense?

Best, Dag

···

Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the cards.

I disagree. I think it is very possible. Although it will require writing an application to do it, the migration process would be largely automatic. The thread issue may just mean that some threads are split to some degree, but I don’t see that as a great problem. I did start looking at this with a Java application and just need to run a few tests to conform it is technically viable.

The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.

Your Eudora archive is a great resource, and would be used for the migration, so the work you put into has been invaluable and would not be wasted. It would be transferred to the forum and would allow a much easier search. Even when you start typing a title for a new topic it would come up with previous similar threads.

Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and MyBB?

The trouble with bbPress is that it sits within wordpress and is governed by the wordpress site themes and formatting. For example, it would be squashed in one part of the screen if there are wordpress sidebars. Also the forum data is recorded in the existing wordpress database tables which makes it very difficult to administer.

I think MyBB is much better as it is a dedicated forum application with its own database and tables rather than having to adhere to the constraints of a different application.

It’s fairly straightforward to install, and I’ve done a test of it here http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions need answers.

I am volunteering to do it, and welcome any others who would like to take part.

Regards,

Rupert

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.26 12:10 PDT)]

Thanks Rupert! Thanks for the extra info and perspective. I am sold.

I made a duplicate of the iapct.org site (on my hard disk) and have made some changes given some assumptions I make about the new forum.

Note that these changes are merely to illustrate what I think might be. It is super easy for me to restore the site to what it was a few hours back.

Seems to me that a logical place for the new forum is at www.iapct.org, the official IAPCT website. Since the organization's name has officially been changed from CSG to IAPCT, I suppose a similar change should be made to the discussion group.

I have just created two new folders at the IAPCT.org website. One called CSGnet is suggested as the location for a page to provide some continuity, explanation, and a pointer to the new forum, and one called FORUM would be the location for the forum itself. The former holds a draft and the second holds a pointer, for Rupert to edit and remove, respectively.

Rupert will have FTP access to both of these folders so he can update the CSGnet page and install MyBB in the FORUM folder. So Rupert will be our Forum Master.

Rupert can download the entire forum as it evolves from the FORUM folder to his hard disk, and so can I. This way, we will not be completely dependent on the reliability of the hosting company, PowWeb.com.

Some time ago, I remember learning that an address such as
http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

is a way to point directly to the folder "forum" at the site perceptualrobots.com.

I must be missing something because right now http://forum.iapct.org does not point to the forum folder, but rather brings up the site's index page.

Have I understood correctly, and does this make sense?

Best, Dag

···

Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the cards.

I disagree. I think it is very possible. Although it will require writing an application to do it, the migration process would be largely automatic. The thread issue may just mean that some threads are split to some degree, but I don't see that as a great problem. I did start looking at this with a Java application and just need to run a few tests to conform it is technically viable.

The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.

Your Eudora archive is a great resource, and would be used for the migration, so the work you put into has been invaluable and would not be wasted. It would be transferred to the forum and would allow a much easier search. Even when you start typing a title for a new topic it would come up with previous similar threads.

Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and MyBB?

The trouble with bbPress is that it sits within wordpress and is governed by the wordpress site themes and formatting. For example, it would be squashed in one part of the screen if there are wordpress sidebars. Also the forum data is recorded in the existing wordpress database tables which makes it very difficult to administer.

I think MyBB is much better as it is a dedicated forum application with its own database and tables rather than having to adhere to the constraints of a different application.

It's fairly straightforward to install, and I've done a test of it here http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions need answers.

I am volunteering to do it, and welcome any others who would like to take part.

Regards,
Rupert

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.26.21:12 ET)]

Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00 –

···

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com wrote:

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the cards.
The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.
Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and MyBB?
No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions need answers.
[From Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

I disagree. I think it is very possible. Although it will require writing an application to do it, the migration process would be largely automatic. The thread issue may just mean that some threads are split to some degree, but I don’t see that as a great problem. I did start looking at this with a Java application and just need to run a few tests to conform it is technically viable.

Your Eudora archive is a great resource, and would be used for the migration, so the work you put into has been invaluable and would not be wasted. It would be transferred to the forum and would allow a much easier search. Even when you start typing a title for a new topic it would come up with previous similar threads.

The trouble with bbPress is that it sits within wordpress and is governed by the wordpress site themes and formatting. For example, it would be squashed in one part of the screen if there are wordpress sidebars. Also the forum data is recorded in the existing wordpress database tables which makes it very difficult to administer.

I think MyBB is much better as it is a dedicated forum application with its own database and tables rather than having to adhere to the constraints of a different application.

It’s fairly straightforward to install, and I’ve done a test of it here http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

I am volunteering to do it, and welcome any others who would like to take part.

Regards,

Rupert

[Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02 ET)]

Rupert, Dag, do you need more people to help with this?

Recalling last Spring’s thread “Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet authorship 2017)”, let’s bear in mind the desirability of migrating threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

A PCT wiki or ‘PCTpedia’ also broached in the above thread. That is also on the list of IAPCT desiderata from the annual meeting. Probably that should be deferred until the new discussion platform is in place and working well.

···

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Bruce Nevin bnhpct@gmail.com wrote:

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.26.21:12 ET)]

Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00 –

RY> I am volunteering to do it, and welcome any others who would like to take part.

BN> Rupert, Bravo! And thank you!

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Rupert Young rupert@perceptualrobots.com wrote:

And I think migrating the existing Eudora archive will never happen. It seems a nice idea, but thread headings have been very misleading and the effort to get this done would require manyears, methinketh. Hardly in the cards.
The archive is searchable as is with the boolean search function built into Eudora. Having to download and use Eudora should not be a hindrance to anyone who really wants to study. Eudora works fine with Win 10.
Rupert, what difference do you see between using bbPress and MyBB?
No, I am not volunteering to work this out. I just think these questions need answers.
[From Rupert Young (2017.08.26 15.00)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.25 15:30 PDT)]

I disagree. I think it is very possible. Although it will require writing an application to do it, the migration process would be largely automatic. The thread issue may just mean that some threads are split to some degree, but I don’t see that as a great problem. I did start looking at this with a Java application and just need to run a few tests to conform it is technically viable.

Your Eudora archive is a great resource, and would be used for the migration, so the work you put into has been invaluable and would not be wasted. It would be transferred to the forum and would allow a much easier search. Even when you start typing a title for a new topic it would come up with previous similar threads.

The trouble with bbPress is that it sits within wordpress and is governed by the wordpress site themes and formatting. For example, it would be squashed in one part of the screen if there are wordpress sidebars. Also the forum data is recorded in the existing wordpress database tables which makes it very difficult to administer.

I think MyBB is much better as it is a dedicated forum application with its own database and tables rather than having to adhere to the constraints of a different application.

It’s fairly straightforward to install, and I’ve done a test of it here http://forum.perceptualrobots.com/

I am volunteering to do it, and welcome any others who would like to take part.

Regards,

Rupert

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.27 15:25 PDT)]

The way I see it, we don’t need more people to help out.

Well, Martin Taylor for ECACS, of course.

If my assumptions/interpretation that I spelled out and implemented yesterday make sense, most importantly to Rupert, but also to the board and others, all I need do is to provide Rupert with FTP access to the two folders at iapct.org – CSGnet and Forum. (Rupert can share with others as he sees fit).

I googled MyBB reviews this morning and see www.mybb.com.

A very good choice as far as I can see.

Rupert gets to set it up as a successor to CSGnet. I can download the subscriber address list from CSGnet and make an announcement directly to all subscribers, active and dormant, with subscriber information.

Perhaps Rupert can transfer the subscriber list. But I think it will be a good idea for me to email all CSGnet subscribers. A good number of addresses will bounce, saying there is no such address.

Going forward, I can respond directly to anyone who posts to CSGnet listserver, informing them of the change and asking the person to sign up at IAPCTnet (if that is what we will call it).

I expect to update the existing CSGnet archive to make it current before Rupert attempts to do his magic to populate the new forum with threads, going back a good many years. Rupert is aware that the Eudora mailboxes he will deal with are in fact editable text files.

However, it seems to me that setting up IAPCTnet is primary. It can and should be done rather immediately. Sorting out the existing archive and populating the forum with the result is a secondary effort that likely will take Rupert some time.

With regard to “the short-lived ECACS forum”, Martin Taylor will be the one to collaborate with Rupert.

I’ll stand by for instructions from Rupert.

Best, Dag

···

[Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02 ET)]

Rupert, Dag, do you need more people to help with this?

Recalling last Spring’s thread “Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet authorship 2017)”, let’s bear in mind the desirability of migrating threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

A PCT wiki or 'PCTpedia’ also broached in the above thread. That is also on the list of IAPCT desiderata from the annual meeting. Probably that should be deferred until the new discussion platform is in place and working well.Â

/Bruce

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.27 15:25 PDT)]

The way I see it, we don’t need more people to help out.

Well, Martin Taylor for ECACS, of course.

If my assumptions/interpretation that I spelled out and implemented
yesterday make sense, most importantly to Rupert, but also to the board
and others, all I need do is to provide Rupert with FTP access to the two
folders at iapct.org – CSGnet and Forum. (Rupert can share with others
as he sees fit).

I googled MyBB reviews this morning and see
www.mybb.com.

A very good choice as far as I can see.

Rupert gets to set it up as a successor to CSGnet. I can download the
subscriber address list from CSGnet and make an announcement directly to
all subscribers, active and dormant, with subscriber information.

Perhaps Rupert can transfer the subscriber list. But I think it will be a
good idea for me to email all CSGnet subscribers. A good number of
addresses will bounce, saying there is no such address.

Going forward, I can respond directly to anyone who posts to CSGnet
listserver, informing them of the change and asking the person to sign up
at IAPCTnet (if that is what we will call it).

I expect to update the existing CSGnet archive to make it current before
Rupert attempts to do his magic to populate the new forum with threads,
going back a good many years. Rupert is aware that the Eudora mailboxes
he will deal with are in fact editable text files.

However, it seems to me that setting up IAPCTnet is primary. It can and
should be done rather immediately. Sorting out the existing archive and
populating the forum with the result is a secondary effort that likely
will take Rupert some time.

With regard to “the short-lived ECACS forum”, Martin Taylor
will be the one to collaborate with Rupert.

I’ll stand by for instructions from Rupert.

Best, Dag

···

[Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02
ET)]

Rupert, Dag, do you need more people to help with this?

Recalling last Spring’s thread “Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet
authorship 2017)”, let’s bear in mind the desirability of migrating
threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

A PCT wiki or 'PCTpedia’� also broached in the above thread. That is also
on the list of

IAPCT desiderata
� from the annual meeting. Probably that should be
deferred until the new discussion platform is in place and working well.�

/Bruce

[From MK (2017.08.28.1215 CET)]

Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02 ET)--

Recalling last Spring's thread "Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet authorship 2017)", let's bear in mind the desirability of migrating threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

Maybe it was short-lived for a reason.

Reorganize.

Do not try to resuscitate failed experiments.

Hiking the PCT is best done without needless baggage.

M

[From Rupert Young (2017.08.28 12.30)]

Did someone send a message about Discourse? I can't find it, can you resend?

Rupert

[From Rupert Young (2017.08.28 13.30)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.26 12:10 PDT)]

Rupert will have FTP access to both of these folders so he can update the CSGnet page and install MyBB in the FORUM folder. So Rupert will be our Forum Master.

My web host provides functionality for installing applications such as wordpress or MyBB. Can you check if your provider has such functionality? The host would also need provision of MySQL database and PHP environment. I would need access to the database and the ability to run PHP probably via a SSH (command line) interface.

I must be missing something because right now http://forum.iapct.org does not point to the forum folder, but rather brings up the site's index page.

Have I understood correctly, and does this make sense?

You need to set up a subdomain. This may be done automatically if the provider has MyBB functionality.

Rupert

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.28.10:37 ET)]

I would prefer PCTnet over IAPTnet, myself, as a name for the email platform.

···

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Dag Forssell csgarchive@pctresources.com wrote:

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.27 15:25 PDT)]

The way I see it, we don’t need more people to help out.

Well, Martin Taylor for ECACS, of course.

If my assumptions/interpretation that I spelled out and implemented
yesterday make sense, most importantly to Rupert, but also to the board
and others, all I need do is to provide Rupert with FTP access to the two
folders at iapct.org – CSGnet and Forum. (Rupert can share with others
as he sees fit).

I googled MyBB reviews this morning and see
www.mybb.com.

A very good choice as far as I can see.

Rupert gets to set it up as a successor to CSGnet. I can download the
subscriber address list from CSGnet and make an announcement directly to
all subscribers, active and dormant, with subscriber information.

Perhaps Rupert can transfer the subscriber list. But I think it will be a
good idea for me to email all CSGnet subscribers. A good number of
addresses will bounce, saying there is no such address.

Going forward, I can respond directly to anyone who posts to CSGnet
listserver, informing them of the change and asking the person to sign up
at IAPCTnet (if that is what we will call it).

I expect to update the existing CSGnet archive to make it current before
Rupert attempts to do his magic to populate the new forum with threads,
going back a good many years. Rupert is aware that the Eudora mailboxes
he will deal with are in fact editable text files.

However, it seems to me that setting up IAPCTnet is primary. It can and
should be done rather immediately. Sorting out the existing archive and
populating the forum with the result is a secondary effort that likely
will take Rupert some time.

With regard to “the short-lived ECACS forum”, Martin Taylor
will be the one to collaborate with Rupert.

I’ll stand by for instructions from Rupert.

Best, Dag

[Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02
ET)]

Rupert, Dag, do you need more people to help with this?

Recalling last Spring’s thread “Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet
authorship 2017)”, let’s bear in mind the desirability of migrating
threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

A PCT wiki or 'PCTpedia’Â also broached in the above thread. That is also
on the list of

IAPCT desiderata
 from the annual meeting. Probably that should be
deferred until the new discussion platform is in place and working well.Â

/Bruce

I agree with Bruce: PCTNet

Fred

···

From: Bruce Nevin [mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 10:38 AM
To: CSG csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Successor to CSG-net

[From Bruce Nevin (2017.08.28.10:37 ET)]

I would prefer PCTnet over IAPTnet, myself, as a name for the email platform.

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Dag Forssell csgarchive@pctresources.com wrote:

[From Dag Forssell (2017.08.27 15:25 PDT)]

The way I see it, we don’t need more people to help out.
Well, Martin Taylor for ECACS, of course.

If my assumptions/interpretation that I spelled out and implemented yesterday make sense, most importantly to Rupert, but also to the board and others, all I need do is to provide Rupert with FTP access to the two folders at iapct.org – CSGnet and Forum. (Rupert can share with others as he sees fit).

I googled MyBB reviews this morning and see www.mybb.com.
A very good choice as far as I can see.

Rupert gets to set it up as a successor to CSGnet. I can download the subscriber address list from CSGnet and make an announcement directly to all subscribers, active and dormant, with subscriber information.

Perhaps Rupert can transfer the subscriber list. But I think it will be a good idea for me to email all CSGnet subscribers. A good number of addresses will bounce, saying there is no such address.

Going forward, I can respond directly to anyone who posts to CSGnet listserver, informing them of the change and asking the person to sign up at IAPCTnet (if that is what we will call it).

I expect to update the existing CSGnet archive to make it current before Rupert attempts to do his magic to populate the new forum with threads, going back a good many years. Rupert is aware that the Eudora mailboxes he will deal with are in fact editable text files.

However, it seems to me that setting up IAPCTnet is primary. It can and should be done rather immediately. Sorting out the existing archive and populating the forum with the result is a secondary effort that likely will take Rupert some time.

With regard to “the short-lived ECACS forum”, Martin Taylor will be the one to collaborate with Rupert.

I’ll stand by for instructions from Rupert.

Best, Dag

[Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02 ET)]

Rupert, Dag, do you need more people to help with this?

Recalling last Spring’s thread “Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet authorship 2017)”, let’s bear in mind the desirability of migrating threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

A PCT wiki or 'PCTpedia’ also broached in the above thread. That is also on the list of IAPCT desiderata from the annual meeting. Probably that should be deferred until the new discussion platform is in place and working well.Â

/Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2017.08.28.11.59]

[From MK (2017.08.28.1215 CET)]

Bruce Nevin (2017.08.27.18:02 ET)--

Recalling last Spring's thread "Possible new forum (was Re: CSGnet authorship 2017)", let's bear in mind the desirability of migrating threads from the short-lived ECACS forum to the new platform.

Maybe it was short-lived for a reason.

There are usually reasons why things happen the way they do. Not all are individually important or generalizable. And language is a malleable artifact...

In the case of ECACS "short-lived" means from February 2004 to March 2014.

I can identify three probable reasons for its final demise. (1) ECACS was an acronym for "Exploration of Complex Adaptive Control Systems", with the emphasis on "Complex" and "Adaptive". Although everything in it was about PCT, several of the contributors had felt rather unwelcome on the more purist and less exploratory CSGnet either personally or in respect of the topics they wanted to pursue. Most of the contributors continued to participate on CSGnet talking mainly about more purist single-loop topics, and I suspect that many (among whom I include myself) found it rather a strain to be contributing both to the Forum and to the e-mail conversation. (2) One of the major contributors to ECACS died, and I think that afterwards the number of thought-provoking contributions declined below the critical mass at which members would make a habit of logging in. (3) The developer went out of business without providing a security update, and it must have got hacked, because my ISP told me the domain had been reported as being used for malicious purposes, so I immediately shut it down. I had intended to get it converted to another forum form, but never got around to doing so.

Reorganize.

Do not try to resuscitate failed experiments.

I wouldn't really call ECACS a failed experiment. It was a forum very much like what is being discussed as a replacement for CSGnet. Members could receive messages as e-mail notices, as e-mail with full content, or just read the Forum. I don't remember whether we implemented the ability to add to a thread by replying to an e-mail, but we intended to, and may have done. We (the membership generally) did think that facility would be desirable. Once in a while an administrator might think a thread had gone too far off topic, and would split off the deviant part to form a linked but separate thread. We had a designated area for "spats" (not the kind a Victorian gentleman would wear), but if things got too nasty, we could (and did) suspend a member's posting privileges.

Some of the ECACS concepts were "experiments" in the sense that they were not available to the mailing list, and were tried out over the short (as compared to CSGnet) life of the ECACS forum. For example, right at the top level there was a fixed set of root topics, including Administrative announcements and planning, for documents and links (like Dag's), for academic discussion of theory, for Applications and Software, and for material such as postings we thought should be kept for posterity.

I wouldn't say the ECACS concepts all "failed", and I think some of the threads were quite useful for further reference. In particular, in such a forum, no thread is ever closed, or even forgotten since its title is always on display, and if one has new thoughts on an old topic, the relevance of the addition is immediately obvious. In fact, looking at a little of ECACS this morning to find its starting and stopping dates, I noticed that I had posted a response in 2014 to a thread in which the last previous message was sent in 2004.

Hiking the PCT is best done without needless baggage.

M

I think the traveller is the one best suited to determining what baggage is or is not needed. I would consider lots of old CSGnet threads "needless baggage", but no way would I censor them from a new forum. Someone else might find them useful. The same is true of several threads (and one or two posters) on the ECACS forum.

···

-------------
By the way, I second Bruce's concept for the forum name. "IAPCTnet" doesn't roll off the tongue as PCTnet would do. Nor is it as easily explained to a potential new member. PCTnet sounds as though it is about PCT, the "International Association" is about PCT, but IAPCTnet sounds as though it is about the international association, not about PCT.

Martin

Martin

[Dag Forssell (2017.08.28 23:50 PDT)]

The attached zip file holds what I have learned
and hope to have accomplished today.

My account with PowWeb holds a total of 11 web
sites, so I am not anxious to provide access to
the whole thing. My daugher Karin does have
complete access, so if anything happens to me,
she can take over. Bruce N. knows her well.

I have updated the CSGnet web page with a new
address for Rupert, forwarded to his pctrobots
address. I hope that is agreeable.

By separate email, I have provided Rupert access
to the two new folders, csgnet and forum.

I have created a subdomain forum.iapct.org, but
it does not yet work. If that is a timing issue,
it will work in a day or so. If not, I will ask for help.

Over to you, Rupert. Let me know if this all will work.

Best, Dag

PCTnet.zip (517 KB)

···

[From Rupert Young (2017.08.28 13.30)]

(Dag Forssell (2017.08.26 12:10 PDT)]

Rupert will have FTP access to both of these
folders so he can update the CSGnet page and
install MyBB in the FORUM folder. So Rupert will be our Forum Master.

My web host provides functionality for
installing applications such as wordpress or
MyBB. Can you check if your provider has such
functionality? The host would also need
provision of MySQL database and PHP environment.
I would need access to the database and the
ability to run PHP probably via a SSH (command line) interface.

I must be missing something because right now
http://forum.iapct.org does not point to the
forum folder, but rather brings up the site's index page.

Have I understood correctly, and does this make sense?

You need to set up a subdomain. This may be done
automatically if the provider has MyBB functionality.

Rupert