world model

[From Rick Marken (2017.10.14.1220)]

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CauseControl.pdf (815 KB)

···

RM: in their simplest form these equations are:

p = g(o + d) (environment function)

o = f(r-p)Â Â (system function)
 Dag Forssell (2017.10.12.1535 EDT)–

DF: Rick you have used these two equations for over 20 years to support your various arguments.

RM:Â Actually, more like 37 years. And during that time Bill Powers had plenty of chances to chide me for using those equations if he thought they were wrong. But he didn’t because they were just fine; indeed, they are virtually the same equations that Bill uses to explain the behavioral illusion in his 1978 Psych Review paper. Here are the equations Bill used to derive the behavioral illusion.Â

RM: In equation 2 q.i is the controlled variable, equivalent to p in my equation, and q.o is the output variable, equivalent to o in my equation. This is the “environment equation” for the control system. The difference between Bill’s and my environment equations are 1) I didn’t include the disturbance function, h(), and 2) in mine, d should not have been included in the argument to the feedback function, g(); I should have written it p = g(o) + d.Â

RM: Bill’s equation 1 is the system function and the argument to f() is expanded out later in the article as q.i* - q.i, where q.i* corresponds to r in my equation. So Bill’s system equation is notated q.o = f(q.i* - q.i) – output is a function of error – while mine is notated o = f(r-p) – output is a function of error. But obviously Bill’s and my equations are equivalent.

Â

DF: Never do you emphasize that these equations never apply in real life. As Powers put it, they represent a steady state.

RM: Bill called it a quasi-static analysis. These are not really steady-state equations since they describe the relationship between variables that vary over time. And I did say that they are approximations; what is approximated is the equals sign in the solution to the simultaneous algebraic equations. That is, the equation for p should be:

p ~ r rather than p = r

where ~ means approximately equal to, the approximation approaching equality as loop gain approaches infinity.

and the equation for o should be

o ~ -1/g (d) rather than o = -1/g(d)

where again the approximation approaches equality as loop gain approaches infinity.

DF: The instant anything changes, whether disturbance or reference signal, the equations change dramatically.

RM: The equations don’t change but the variables are certainly changing, over time. But I think you are saying this based on Bruce Abbott’s little tutorial where he used a sequential state analysis to explain how the disturbance can be shown to be the cause of output because it changes before the output changes. But, in fact, the disturbance cannot be considered the cause of output. The reason is given in Bill’s and my environment equations: per Bill’s equation 2, the controlled input variable, q.i, is proportional to the sum of the output and disturbance variables (q.o + q.d). All that the system perceives is q.i. Â

RM: Let’s assume that the reference for q.i, q.i*, is some value, such as 7 (all numbers are in neural signal units). The value of q.i at any instant depends simultaneously on the current values of both q.o and q.d. So if q.i is 5, the system doesn’t know if that’s because q.o = 0 and q.d = 5 (as Bruce assumed in his tutorial) or because q.o = 5 and q.d = 0. That is, q.i could equal 5 because the disturbance alone is causing this of because the system alone is causing this. Indeed, at any instant, a q.i value of 5 could result from an infinite combination of values of q.o and q.d that add to 5. All the system knows is that q.i is 5 and, therefore, less than q.i* (7 in this case); so there is error that will cause a change in the current value of the output. It is thus the deviation of the controlled variable, q.i, from the reference, q.i* – that is, error – that is the cause of output in a control loop.Â

RM: So the only variable that actually causes the output of a control system is the error variable, q.i*-q.i; the system acts to keep error small by producing outputs that will appear to an observer to be caused by the disturbance. But, in fact, it is error that is the cause of output. And output is, at the same time, a cause of error (causing it to be reduced).

RM: The appearance that output is caused by the disturbance is, therefore, an illusion. The process by which a control system produces output that appears to be caused by the disturbance is explained by the control model! There is no need to introduce non-existent causal mechanisms to explain this. And the essential part of that explanation is a description of the variable that is being controlled, q.i; the controlled variable. That is, the focus of research aimed at explaining the controlling (purposeful behavior) of organisms should be on identifying controlled variables; not on identifying the causes of control system output; the latter is explained by the control model once q.i is identified.

RM: The sequential state analysis that purports to show that disturbances cause outputs is a fiction originally invented by Martin Taylor (back in the early 1990s). Apparently Bruce A. has taken it up now too. I suspect they do this to justify the study of control systems using conventional methods of behavioral research – research based on what Bill called the old cause-effect model of behavior. But this sequential state analysis is easily shown to be incorrect; indeed, that’s what my very first PCT research study showed. I’ve attached it for your reading pleasure. It shows that there is no way for the disturbance to be considered the cause of control movements; and that the true cause of control movements, variations in deviations of q.i from some reference state, would not be seen as the cause since they have virtually no relationship to outputs. I did this research and published this paper – in 1980! – as my “shot across the bow” of scientific psychology to warn that a revolution is coming, one that would require a whole different approach to studying the behavior of living system. Clearly, scientific psychology was (and is) not cringing in fear;-) Â

DF: Your equations would apply if the control system has infinite loop gain.

RM: That is correct, though I did say that they are approximations when I used = signs. But changing the = to ~ fixes that.

DF: For many of the situations discussed here on CSGnet, loop gain is rather low.

 RM: I don’t believe that’s true. Humans control very skillfully which means that nearly everything we do involves controlling with very high gain. Â

DF: Martin usually argues from a perspective that does not presume infinite loop gain. I wish you would too. It is much more real.

RM: I never assume infinite loop gain. And in my research I develop very accurate control models that have high gain but no where near infinite loop gain. Martin and Bruce A. are trying to superimpose the old cause-effect model of behavior onto PCT. And everyone on CSGNet who’s been involved in these discussion seems to agree with them – that the disturbance is a cause of output. So I’m posting this knowing that it is unlikely that I’ll convince anyone that the apparent causal relationship between disturbance and output in a control loop is an illusion; but it can’t hurt to keep trying.Â

BestÂ

Rick


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.14.1905 EDT)]

Rick Marken (2017.10.14.1220) –

Dag Forssell (2017.10.12.1535 EDT)–

RM: in their simplest form these equations are:

p = g(o + d) (environment function)

o = f(r-p) (system function)

DF: Rick you have used these two equations for over 20 years to support your various arguments.

DF: The instant anything changes, whether disturbance or reference signal, the equations change dramatically.

RM: The equations don’t change but the variables are certainly changing, over time. But I think you are saying this based on Bruce Abbott’s little tutorial where he used a sequential state analysis to explain how the disturbance can be shown to be the cause of output because it changes before the output changes. But, in fact, the disturbance cannot be considered the cause of output. The reason is given in Bill’s and my environment equations: per Bill’s equation 2, the controlled input variable, q.i, is proportional to the sum of the output and disturbance variables (q.o + q.d). All that the system perceives is q.i.

BA: Since you brought in my analysis here (and incorrectly described it), I’ll take the liberty of responding to this portion, even though your post was directed to Dag.

BA: If you had read beyond the first paragraph of my explanation, you would have seen that I did indeed deal with the fact that, after the first traverse of the loop (which began with a zero output value),the controlled variable was also affected by a non-zero output in addition to the disturbance. And this is not the first, but the second time I’ve pointed that out to you.

RM: Let’s assume that the reference for q.i, q.i*, is some value, such as 7 (all numbers are in neural signal units). The value of q.i at any instant depends simultaneously on the current values of both q.o and q.d. So if q.i is 5, the system doesn’t know if that’s because q.o = 0 and q.d = 5 (as Bruce assumed in his tutorial) or because q.o = 5 and q.d = 0. That is, q.i could equal 5 because the disturbance alone is causing this of because the system alone is causing this. Indeed, at any instant, a q.i value of 5 could result from an infinite combination of values of q.o and q.d that add to 5. All the system knows is that q.i is 5 and, therefore, less than q.i* (7 in this case); so there is error that will cause a change in the current value of the output. It is thus the deviation of the controlled variable, qi, from the reference, q.i* – that is, error – that is the cause of output in a control loop.

BA: “All the system knows�? Since when does a variable know what its causes are? Knowledge of cause is a property of the analyst or system designer, not of the system itself.

RM: So the only variable that actually causes the output of a control system is the error variable, q.i*-q.i; the system acts to keep error small by producing outputs that will appear to an observer to be caused by the disturbance. But, in fact, it is error that is the cause of output. And output is, at the same time, a cause of error (causing it to be reduced).

BA: In an earlier post I asked you how you define the term “cause.� I asked because I suspected that you define it differently than most. Let’s break down your claim to the simplest possible case, shown in the diagram below:

image00282.jpgBA: Here, variation in A and/or B cause variation in C. The effects of A and B on C are in opposite directions, as indicated by the plus and minus signs. If only A varies, then C will vary directly with A. If only B varies, then C will vary inversely with B. If both A and B vary, then C will vary with the difference between A and B. Most people I know would say that variations in both A and B are causes of variation in C.

BA: Let’s assume that both A and B vary, and B varies in such a way that its effect on C cancels the effect of A on C. Most people I know would still say that variation in A and B each exert a causal influence on C, even though those effects cancel out. The effects cancel, they do not cease to have an influence on C.

You, on the other hand, would say that neither A nor B are causally connected to C, where A is variation in the disturbance and B is variation in the control system’s output. Because the effects of A and B on C cancel, the disturbance is having no causal effect on C. Do I have that right?

BA: But let us go one step further. In a proportional control system in which the loop gain is not infinite (i.e., any real control system), the output variations B do not entirely cancel the effect of disturbance variations A on the controlled variable, C. Instead, they merely reduce the variation in C to a small amount, how small being determined by the loop gain (higher gain, lower variation). So even by your unique definition of cause, the disturbance is still causing variation in C. Now, if a small amount of noise is concurrently acting as an independent source of variation in C, and this noise is of a range of frequencies to which the control system cannot respond effectively, then variation in C will be jointly determined by A, B, and the noise. With reasonably high loop gain, the noise may contribute as much or more to the remaining variation in C as the disturbance does. Consequently a correlational analysis will reveal almost no correlation between variation in disturbance and variation in the controlled variable. The correlation is low because of the noise contribution to variation in C, not because the closed loop has removed the effect of the disturbance on C.

Bruce

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[From Rick Marken (2017. 10.14.1830)]

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···

Martin Taylor (2017.10.12.17.17)–.

MT: Really? I offer in evidence …

    RM: ...By "causal" I mean what Powers means when

he talks about the “causal model” of behavior: I am referring to
the idea that the disturbance (seen as a stimulus) variable
leads to the output (seen as the response) variable via process
in the organism. It’s the concept of causality that is the basis
of all research in scientific psychology – except that does by
PCT researchers.

MT: So ten days ago, you denied that there were causal relations all round the control loop, since processes in the organism did not produce the output.

RM: If you consider that a rejection of causality then you must also consider this a rejection of causality:Â

But the disturbance that contributes essentially 100% of the variance of the behavior can act on the organism only via the variable that shows no significant correlation with behavior. Not only the old cause-effect model breaks down when one is dealing with an N system, the very basis of experimental psychology breaks down also.

RM: Of course, that’s a quote from WTP. It’s quite a trick you are pulling off here. You are criticizing me for saying (and demonstrating) the same things you agree with when Bill Powers says (and demonstrates) them.Â

MT: You explicitly said "time-varying", and then presented equations

without time variation.

RM: And here you are doing it again. As I pointed out in an earlier post to Dag, these are the same equations Bill used to as the basis for deriving the behavioral illusion in the 1978 Psych Review paper. There were no time variations indicated in Bill’s equations either.

Â

MT: That's the inverse of what you did in the

power-law paper, in which you presented an equation that was true
for all velocity profiles, and then said that since one particular
velocity profile made the equation true, this was proven to be the
only correct profile.

RM:Â What “one particular velocity profile” are you talking about? If it’s the pursuer movement profiles there were actually 43 different profiles, not one. I wish you would stop with the snarky criticisms of our paper and point us to the rebuttal to it that is presumably under review

MT: Let me quote back to you another passage:

[BP] *        The sciences of life have been

understandably preoccupied with causes and effects, mostly
because
they have been ignorant for so long about the mechanisms
connecting them. In the most important
cases, unfortunately, the behavioral sciences have reached the
wrong conclusions about the
mechanisms or have not been able to think of any mechanisms at
all, and as a consequence have been
unable to predict effects from causes with much success.*

  MT: What this suggests to me is that Bill saw it as important to

describe the mechanism of control properly, namely using classical
physics and engineering methods (because relativistic and quantum
refinements aren’t very useful for the time and space scales of
interest to the problem).

RM: I’m afraid you are misunderstanding what Bill means when he refers to the “classical cause-effect model”. He is referring to what could be called the S-R or “open loop” or “lineal causal” model of behavior. Here’s a relevant quote from the 1978 Psych Review paper that demonstrates this point:Â

RM: The “classical cause-effect” model says that external stimuli, q.d, cause, via an environmental function h(), the inputs, q.i, that cause, via the organism function f(), observed output, q.o. Control theory shows that, because q.i and q.o are connected in a closed negative feedback loop, there will be a relationship between q.d and q.o but that relationship is not causal; it’s just the inverse of the feedback function connecting q.o to q.i. If this relationship between q.d and q.o is taken as causal then that will be a mistake; an illusion of causality; a behavioral illusion. This doesn’t deny that “classical physics” applies to the relationship between q.o and q.d. The causality of classical physics exists at a different level of explanation than the causality involved in the causality of closed-loop control.Â

RM: The mechanisms connecting cause and effect that Bill is talking about in the paragraph above are the mechanisms within and outside the organism that link q.d to q.o and are responsible for the observed behavior of the organism. According to the classical cause-effect model these mechanisms look like this:

          |organism|

q.d—>q.i–>|–>p----->|–> q.o

According to control theory these mechanisms look like this:

          Â

          |   organism  |

          |      r      |

          |      |      |  Â

          |      v      |

q.d—>q.i–>|Â -->p–>c–>o–>|–> q.o

      ^                    |

       |____________________|

      Â

RM: In both models all the connections are real causal links but in the control model the negative feedback path from q.o to q.i changes the nature of the link between q.d to q.o; q.d alone is no longer causally related to q.o. The cause of q.o is the combined effect of q.d and q.o – q.i – on q.o. So there is no point looking for the causal relationship between q.d and q.o; there is none. According to the mechanism of behavior proposed by control theory, the only variable that causes q.o is q.i. Â

BestÂ

Rick


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

RM: No one is saying that there is no causation.

          RM: I am saying that the causation in a control system is

described by the simultaneous equations that describe the
functional relationship between time the varying variables
in a control loop; in their simplest form these equations
are:

p = g(o + d)Â Â Â Â Â (environment function)

o =Â f(r-p)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (system function)

[Martin Taylor 2017.10.15.00.23

[From Rick Marken (2017.10.14.1220)]

Yes, but remember that Bill always made sure to use them only

disturbance variations were very slow, and noted their approximate
nature. He got Kennaway to write the equations for when variation
over time causes appreciable error in them. They aren’t written as
functions of time, after all, so they aren’t exactly appropriate if
the disturbance changes at all, ever, because they can’t accommodate
any change. They are equilibrium solutions, approximately valid when
the system is near an equilibrium, a long time since the last
influence from outside the loop.

Martin
···
              RM: in their

simplest form these equations are:

              p = g(o + d) (environment function)



              o = f(r-p)   (system function)
          Dag Forssell

(2017.10.12.1535 EDT)–

                        DF: Rick you have used these two equations for over

20 years to support your various arguments.

          RM:  Actually, more like 37 years. And during that time

Bill Powers had plenty of chances to chide me for using
those equations if he thought they were wrong. But he
didn’t because they were just fine; indeed, they are
virtually the same equations that Bill uses to explain the
behavioral illusion in his 1978 Psych Review
paper.

[Martin Taylor 2017.10.15.00.31]

[From Rick Marken (2017. 10.14.1830)]

You really do go to some lengths to find knots to tie yourself into,

don’t you. It isn’t very far down your message that you show Bill
defining “the old cause-effect model” in a way that has absolutely
nothing to do with rejecting causality!

How on earth do you reconcile this straightforward statement with a

claim that Bill rejects causality in a control loop?

      MT: That's the inverse of what you did in

the power-law paper, in which you presented an equation that
was true for all velocity profiles, and then said that since
one particular velocity profile made the equation true, this
was proven to be the only correct profile.

    RM:  What "one particular velocity profile" are you talking

about? If it’s the pursuer movement profiles there were actually
43 different profiles, not one. I wish you would stop with the
snarky criticisms of our paper and point us to the rebuttal to
it that is presumably under review

I have no idea what the other Editor has submitted for review, but I

sent you my letter in which the central issue is explained. You
passed it on to your co-author on August 13.

The "one particular velocity profile" is the one in which velocity

varies with R1/3D1/3 . Since D is proportional
to V3 , independently of the radius R, this is the same as
saying that V = kVR1/3, or k = R-1/3 . That’s
not much of a proof that apart from an “extra cross-product
variable” V is proportional to R1/3.

The "extra cross-product variable" D (=cV<sup>3</sup>    ) is the entire

reason why your equation V = kR1/3D1/3 holds
true. R has nothing to do with it, as a moment’s thought about the
dimensionalities of the equations would have shown. It was an
obviously silly idea to begin with, and becomes sillier the more you
protest that it is correct. I do not think it is snarky to continue
to insist that such a major mathematical error invalidates the
entire paper.

Martin

image379.png

···

Martin Taylor (2017.10.12.17.17)–.

MT: Really? I offer in evidence …

                RM: ...By "causal" I mean what Powers means when

he talks about the “causal model” of behavior: I am
referring to the idea that the disturbance (seen as
a stimulus) variable leads to the output (seen as
the response) variable via process in the organism.
It’s the concept of causality that is the basis of
all research in scientific psychology – except
that does by PCT researchers.

          MT: So ten days ago,

you denied that there were causal relations all round the
control loop, since processes in the organism did not
produce the output.

          RM: If you consider that a rejection of causality then

you must also consider this a rejection of causality:

          But the disturbance that contributes essentially 100% of

the variance of the behavior can act on the organism only
via the variable that shows no significant correlation
with behavior. *** Not only the old cause-effect model
breaks down when one is dealing with an N system, the
very basis of experimental psychology breaks down
also.***

                        RM: No one is saying that there is no

causation.

        ...RM: I'm afraid you are

misunderstanding what Bill means when he refers to the
“classical cause-effect model”. He is referring to what
could be called the S-R or “open loop” or “lineal causal”
model of behavior. Here’s a relevant quote from the 1978
Psych Review paper that demonstrates this point:

[From Rick Marken (2017.10.15.1300)]

Martin Taylor (2017.10.15.00.31)--

Â

MT: I have no idea what the other Editor has submitted for review [regarding the "Power Law of Movement Paper"], but I sent you my letter in which the central issue is explained. You passed it on to your co-author on August 13.Â

RM: OK, there is no evidence that anyone has submitted a rebuttal to our paper. I still hold out hope that someone will --preferably you -- so I won't reply to the arguments in your letter now. So I encourage you or others of like mind to please submit a rebuttal to our "power law of movement" paper. I think it's important to make this debate public; I believe it would be a great way to get scientific psychologists to pay attention to PCT.Â

BestÂ
Rick

···

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery