* Diagram Police *

Hi Martin, thanks for your contribution. I think you make it clear that there are many facets of perceptual control that aren’t necessarily relevant to a specific audience to make a specific point. It’s a classic PCT take on dissemination - it needs to be targeted to what the audience is controlling for.

However, we are in the business of answering those questions. We know our audience here - scientists, engineers and practitioners who want to find out what PCT is, how it operationalises control, or have some understanding already and want more. Given that, what are you specific suggestions about modifications for this specific diagram?

With respect to variables versus functions, I would kindly suggest that you bear your audience in mind too. On IAPCT Discourse, we all know the difference and that’s not Phil’s point. The discussion was about what to rename Bill’s Feedback Function in the environment because this term in engineering would equate to the Input Function in PCT. The deeper and important, and often hotly debated, question about where to locate the controlled variable in ‘perceptual’ and ‘real’ reality is another issue.

I hope, somewhat selfishly, this helps keep this new part of the thread practical for the needs of the Preface of the Handbook Volume 2.

Thanks!
Warren

There are already many direct naming conflicts. Engineers call the reference - the input, and the controlled variable - the output, and we call the controlled variable - the input, and the actuator output - the output. But since we are talking about a loop, every signal is both an output from some function and an input to another. Well, except for the reference and disturbance inputs, but even there, there is two of them, so why call any one “the” input.

What I’m trying to say is, there is no escaping naming conflicts, so the names probably need to be a bit more descriptive, “input to x” and “output from y”. A feedback function could be any function in the feedback path, so maybe ‘environment function’ is inclusive enough, no need to make it ‘complex’.

[quote=“wmansell, post:82, topic:15683”]
With respect to variables versus functions, I would kindly suggest that you bear your audience in mind too. On IAPCT Discourse, we all know the difference and that’s not Phil’s point. The discussion was about what to rename Bill’s Feedback Function in the environment because this term in engineering would equate to the Input Function in PCT. [/quote]

I take your point, but I would suggest that there are not many options for effective naming, either of functions or of variables, even within PCT, let alone requiring differentiation of PCT names for functions and variables from the names used in classical control for the analogous entities.

One option is neologism, a choice Kent and I made together when we coined “atenfel” for a combinations of Gibson’s “affordance” and the ability to use an “affordance” (which can be analyzed as such by an outside observer) with the ability to use it in controlling a specific perception. We also coined the related “atenex”, for a nexus of atenfels, often but not always a concrete object that can be used to control a variety of perceptions by someone skilled in these different perceptual controls.

In PCT there’s a level of naming problem introduced by the hierarchical nature of the control structure. Apart from at the physical boundary of the individual organism, every level of control has its own output process (a function) that supplies values to one or (usually more) next level lower reference input functions. The control of a perception of level N is turned into action on the environment only by affecting the reference values of one or more perceptions being controlled at level N-1, and so on to level N-M until we arrive at the periphery where the individual affects and senses the Real Reality environment.

All these controlled perceptions, reference values, and outputs are components of similarly constructed control loops, but the N-X-level loops are parts of the “environmental feedback function” of the level N set of “PCO” (Perceptual, Comparator, Output) set of processes, and the construction of its perceptual value.

Naming here becomes really hard. For example, should or should not the level N “Environmental Feedback Function” name include the atenexes (lower-level control loops to which the level N output feeds reference values, including their components in the external environment). If so, the level N Environmental Feedback Function would include the control quality of the level N-1 down to N-M “supporting” control loops — and there’s a name not ordinarily used when talking about the components of a control loop.

In the “solo” control loop diagrams being discussed here, all the supporting loops, the atenexes, are subsumed under “Output Function”, but since those supporting loops actually include their own Environmental Feedback Processes, parts of which are in the external environment, where would “the environment” for a solo control loop begin? As drawn, the dividing line between environment and inside the individual is at the skin surface. As conceived in the hierarchy, it cannot be there.

I’m not offering solutions to the naming problem here. What I am saying is that if you want to find naming conventions for the whole hierarchy (in my mind Bill’s most important idea), what works for a solo loop is difficult to extend usefully to a loop that is part of a perceptual control hierarchy. If that’s a cop-out, so be it. In PPC, I try to keep clear these distinctions, but I’m quite sure I fail more often than I notice the failure.

That question, I think, depends on what one means by “control”. As I see it, ones actions are only in Real Reality, and what affects our sensors comes only from Real Reality. What we perceive comes from manipulation by our perceptual input functions of whatever inputs they get, much of which is from the sensors. As Powers said quite often, we can know only what we perceive, and what we perceive is not Real Reality. It is whatever our currently constructed perceptual functions make of Real Reality, and it, a perceptual value, is the ONLY thing we can control.

As Rick has often pointed out, the outside world that we perceive is entirely constructed by our perceptual systems. I call it Perceptual Reality. There is no way to know whether Real Reality contains anything that works the same way as our Perceptual Reality does, but the more we interact with Real Reality, the more closely must our Perceptual Reality approximate the same functional relationships as does Real Reality. When we seem to control some variable in the environment, it is always and only a perceptual variable.

We could not control a perceptual variable if our individual influence on Real Reality had inconsistent effects on what we perceive on the time-scale of our loop transport lags up and down the hierarchy. To the extent that we can control a perceptual value, to that extent must our perceptual functions tell us exactly what functions Real Reality is performing. The Quality of Control limits the quality of the approximation between the functions in Perceptual Reality and those actually performed by Real Reality, and that must be better the lower in the control hierarchy the controlled perception.

If close matching between perceptual and Real functions were not the case, especially at the lowest levels, controlling the perceptual values in our Perceptual Reality would not be possible because our actions would not have reproducible effects on our perceptions. One might say that Perceptual Reality mimics Real Reality, in the same way that a Japanese robot that serves to greet customers into a store mimics a human greeter. The actions are the same, but the mechanism isn’t.

We can in principle approximate the functioning of Real Reality to any desired degree of accuracy, but we can never, ever, approximate what mechanism produces these functional relationships. (The current precision of physical measurements and predictions may be amazing, but at least until quantal physics and relativity are thoroughly reconciled, even the functional relationships involved must be considered to be suspect, let alone the mechanism.)

I think this “worry” about the correlation of perception with reality has been a huge impediment to progress in PCT science. I’ll explain why in a separate post in a different topic area.

No, the reference level is the value of a theoretical variable – the reference signal – that accounts for the observed reference state of a controlled variable. Theory accounting for fact; what could be better?

Clearly, then, the notion of a CEV is precisely the same as the “notion” of a controlled variable (CV) and is, therefore, an unnecessary and (I think) confusing addition to PCT.

Well put. Though I will say that I think I have given a pretty good amount of attention to how this is done by developing on-line demos and publishing research demonstrating the use of the test for the controlled variable.

Best, Rick

Hi Martin, you are totally right, but I am looking for an (imperfect but optimal) answer to the question of how to the elements in one control unit.

This thread started off with a claim by Adam that two functions were missing from the bog-standard representation of a minimal control loop, the simplest that exhibited the emergent property “control”. One was a function that transformed an effect created by some entity in the environment that one might call a “disturber” into a disturbance signal. This function is NOT part of the control loop, and deserves no name. The name needed is the one we have always used “the disturbance” or “disturbance signal”.

The second in indeed a function, symmetric with the comparator function, where the disturbance is combined with with the result of passing the output signal through the environmental feedback function. That combination need not be an addition, so if it needs a name, “combiner” might be appropriate.

As for variable names, I distinctly dislike subscripted names like Qi and Qo. When dealing with sets of related entities, such as the scalar members of a vector, subscripts are very useful, and it seems unwarranted to preempt the subscript slot when names such as “input” and “output” seem clear. The only place I can see that might benefit from a name as yet unassigned is the output of the environmental feedback function. I’ll leave that open, but I have a suggestion. Some of the output is distributed into the environment under the name “side-effect”, why not call it “main effect”.

Under all this lies my feeling that we want to use names that are easy to assign to components of the loop, such as “perception”, and “error”, so that PCT neophytes don’t have to learn new stuff just to get the idea of what a control loop is and does.

Thanks Martin!

Very good points Martin!

A couple of suggestions:

  • Neural currents inside organism could (still) be “signals” and the powers and effects in the environment could be “effects”. At least for me this is clear and helpful.
  • The main-effect and the side-effect together could be “environmental output (effect)”.
  • Disturbance could be the other argument or input (in addition to environmental output) to the complex “environment(al?) function”. It is a complex function which among other transformations combines or adds these two effects.
  • Disturbance should also rather be “effect” than “signal”.
  • The output from the environment(al?) function to the perceptual input function could be “perceptual input (effect)”

On Eetu’s suggestions.

Having an engineering background, I would not normally consider a “signal” as equivalent to an “effect”. A signal is a variable that may be used by some procedure to cause an effect, and the value of a signal might be an effect of some other happening, but they aren’t the same thing. A signal conveys information, which could possibly be information about how an effect changed something, whereas an effect is of the change about which the signal might convey information.

I would distinguish environmental output (signal) from the results elsewhere of that signal (its effect).

I don’t see the need for two different kinds of “environmental function”, the one that delivers a signal to what I called the combiner to be combined with the disturbance and as a different name for the combiner. The words “complex” and “environmental” do apply to the CEV (Corresponding Environmental Variable) that is the output signal from the combiner.

The disturbance signal has an effect. They aren’t the same thing.

Personally, I think that the environmental feedback function ought to be split into two distinct functions, one between the output and the combiner (such as lever arms or bulldozers), the other that takes the CEV as input and does something with it before the sensor systems (such as a telescope or a hearing aid).

Fundamentally, there are two domains involved in this. One is the signal or variable domain that carries information from place to place around the loop, and the other is the energy domain, where the “effects” of the loop functions affect the loop signal variables. (Every neuron firing is an effect that involves the dissipation of heat. In doing so, it conveys a signal to its output synapses.)

Hi Martin (play any badminton lately :slight_smile: ) et al.,
Clearly I am not as engaged as you are as “diagram police” … I am more like an “innocent standby-er”. So I am learning as I go here.

A couple of points: I don’t see that naming conventions need to be in conflict with each other. Rather, what is important with PCT (or CCT) is that the concept of input - function - output remains consistent for PCT (or CCT). For instance the inputs (behaviours, actions, disturbances) act on the function (environment, world) and outputs ([complex environmental] variables, states). So I think we all agree on this. The name of the function is secondary to the concept of input - function - output. However, Control Theory convention would not use “feedback” in the name of the function in the example above even though Bill might have called this a feedback function. This is a source of great confusion for me at least as a Control Theorist because I have always assumed that PCT has its roots in CCT at a conceptual level…

I suppose this environmental function could have “feedback” in the name depending on how one draws the feedback loop. In CCT, there is the concept for feedforward functions and feedback functions. And so the Input Function and the Environmental Feedback Function could be both feedback functions, while the Output Function and some Disturbance Function would be the feedforward function. But this would deviate from any standard Control Theory convention.

Amatic made a comment about the controlled variable being downstream of the disturbance, and that would be true of CCT. The concept of observability is needed to understand the concept of the controlled variable. That is, if a variable can be observed (sensed) then it has the potential to be controlled. But if the sensor is broken (as Amatic suggested) then that variable has no chance of being controlled, and in fact the controlled variable is whatever is coming out of the broken sensor. This is where I believe PCT has it right! The controlled variable is an ECU’s perception variable. That is, behaviour is the result of controlling perception regardless of the observability of the variables within the loop.

cheers,

Dr. Phil

PCT does have its roots in classical control theory, but maybe more in analog computing. They used to use feedback all over the place. Op-amp diagrams regularly use ‘feedback elements’, which would be very much like Bill’s feedback function. Here is an op-amp integrator, where the feedback element is a capacitor:

image

Would it be possible to see this op-amp integrator in context of a feedback loop? I might use such a function as part of a PID controller (or the Ouput Function in PCT terms or part of the feed-forward function). As displayed there does not seem to be any feedback as the current seems to flow in the same direction (?)

Thanks Martin, this is helpful!

If you mean, could you use the integrator to calculate the I term for PID, sure, that is exactly how they did it before digital PIDs. There are lots of schemes if you search for “op-amp PID”.

I’ve seen it marked in both direction, not sure what is the convention.

These kinds of op-amps usually work inside a range of positive and negative voltages. If the current is negative, then the flow will be in the opposite direction of the arrow. The op-amp acts to maintain its two inputs equal. The positive one is analogous to the reference signal. The negative one is like the input function, although it is not really converting anything, it is all currents and voltages . I_in is the disturbance current, passing through the disturbance function (Rin), and summing at X with the feedback current I_f, which is the output passing through a feedback function (differentiator C).

Gottcha,
Thanks.

“The input current is offset by a negative feedback current flowing in the capacitor, which is generated by an increase in output voltage of the amplifier. The output voltage is therefore dependent on the value of input current it has to offset and the inverse of the value of the feedback capacitor. The greater the capacitor value, the less output voltage has to be generated to produce a particular feedback current flow.”
Wikipedia: Op-Amp Integrator