Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[Kenny Kitzke (2011.08.26)]

I am interested. If you could tell me more of what you have in mind, it would intensify my interest.

In a message dated 8/26/2011 7:34:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

···

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.0726 EDT)]

Perhaps, we could consider the game of singles tennis from a PCT view.

It involves an interaction between two individuals. The interaction is

structured by the game rules, but every match is different in its specifics.

Anybody interested?

David

Hi! I would be interested. Am an armchair CSGer from 1990 B:CP class at NEIU. Have been playing tennis (mostly singles) for 40+ years and still going. PCT taught me that the environment did NOT control me, but that I controlled it. I learned that I did not have to let opponents, court conditions or equipment decide how I would play. That choice was mine. That may sound simple, but it was quite profound to me. Strong interest in practicality of application to my own lifestyle changes limited involvement in the models and science of PCT to the theoretical proofs they provided… Seeing how a singles game might be viewed from a PCT perspective would be fun and maybe even show some new shots to try on court. Thanks. Carol . .

···

-----Original Message-----

From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems KJKitzke@AOL.COM

To: CSGNET CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 10:42 am

Subject: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[Kenny Kitzke (2011.08.26)]

I am interested. If you could tell me more of what you have in mind, it would intensify my interest.

In a message dated 8/26/2011 7:34:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.0726 EDT)]

Perhaps, we could consider the game of singles tennis from a PCT view.

It involves an interaction between two individuals. The interaction is

structured by the game rules, but every match is different in its specifics.

Anybody interested?

David

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)]

Dear Carol and Kenny:

Here is my first try–

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

Controlled Variables—Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get exercise; follow a strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person.

Disturbances—The other person returns the ball into your side of the court and it is not entirely possible to predict where the ball will go. The kind of court makes a difference. The weather conditions make a difference.

Errors—You hit the ball and it goes into the net or goes outside the bounds of the other person’s court. You mishit the ball. You hit the ball after it bounces twice.

Behaviors/actions—Hit forehands, backhands, volleys, serves; learn to do these things in special ways. Run to the place where the ball lands.

···

From: Carol Kiran

Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 5:37 PM

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

Hi! I would be interested. Am an armchair CSGer from 1990 B:CP class at NEIU. Have been playing tennis (mostly singles) for 40+ years and still going. PCT taught me that the environment did NOT control me, but that I controlled it. I learned that I did not have to let opponents, court conditions or equipment decide how I would play. That choice was mine. That may sound simple, but it was quite profound to me. Strong interest in practicality of application to my own lifestyle changes limited involvement in the models and science of PCT to the theoretical proofs they provided… Seeing how a singles game might be viewed from a PCT perspective would be fun and maybe even show some new shots to try on court. Thanks. Carol . .

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems KJKitzke@AOL.COM
To: CSGNET CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 10:42 am
Subject: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[Kenny Kitzke (2011.08.26)]

I am interested. If you could tell me more of what you have in mind, it would intensify my interest.

In a message dated 8/26/2011 7:34:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.0726 EDT)]

Perhaps, we could consider the game of singles tennis from a PCT view.

It involves an interaction between two individuals. The interaction is

structured by the game rules, but every match is different in its specifics.

Anybody interested?

David

[From Fred Nickols (2011.08.26.1644 MDT)]

David:

A couple of comments.

Your “run to the place where the ball lands� sounds a lot like Wayne Gretzky’s “skate to where the puck will be.� I suspect Rick Marken might suggest some kind of optical/angular velocity as the controlled variable and instead of predicting where the ball will land the player is unable to return the ball because he/she is incapable of controlling that optical angle/velocity.

If by “weather� you mean “wind� I think that is also a disturbance. In addition, what I know of tennis (and golf) a key factor is the player’s “concentration.� Anything that breaks that concentration would be a disturbance. While I’m at it, I rather imagine than “concentration� might be a controlled variable all its own.

I’ve never played tennis and I’ve only played a little golf so I’ll forego saying any more.

I do hope what I have said is helpful and clarifying.

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting LLC

1558 Coshocton Ave – Suite 303

Mount Vernon, OH 43050

www.nickols.us | fred@nickols.us

“Assistance at a Distance�

···

From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet) [mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of David Goldstein
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 4:30 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)]

Dear Carol and Kenny:

Here is my first try–

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

Controlled Variables—Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get exercise; follow a strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person.

Disturbances—The other person returns the ball into your side of the court and it is not entirely possible to predict where the ball will go. The kind of court makes a difference. The weather conditions make a difference.

Errors—You hit the ball and it goes into the net or goes outside the bounds of the other person’s court. You mishit the ball. You hit the ball after it bounces twice.

Behaviors/actions—Hit forehands, backhands, volleys, serves; learn to do these things in special ways. Run to the place where the ball lands.Â

From: Carol Kiran

Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 5:37 PM

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

Hi! I would be interested. Am an armchair CSGer from 1990 B:CP class at NEIU. Have been playing tennis (mostly singles) for 40+ years and still going. PCT taught me that the environment did NOT control me, but that I controlled it. I learned that I did not have to let opponents, court conditions or equipment decide how I would play. That choice was mine. That may sound simple, but it was quite profound to me. Strong interest in practicality of application to my own lifestyle changes limited involvement in the models and science of PCT to the theoretical proofs they provided… Seeing how a singles game might be viewed from a PCT perspective would be fun and maybe even show some new shots to try on court. Thanks. Carol . .

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Kitzke Value Creation Systems KJKitzke@AOL.COM
To: CSGNET CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 10:42 am
Subject: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[Kenny Kitzke (2011.08.26)]

I am interested. If you could tell me more of what you have in mind, it would intensify my interest.

In a message dated 8/26/2011 7:34:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, davidmg@VERIZON.NET writes:

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.0726 EDT)]

Perhaps, we could consider the game of singles tennis from a PCT view.

It involves an interaction between two individuals. The interaction is

structured by the game rules, but every match is different in its specifics.

Anybody interested?

David

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)

DG: Dear Carol and Kenny:
Here is my first try--

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

DG: Controlled Variables—Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s
court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get exercise; follow a
strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person

I think these are certainly reasonable possibilities. But going with
the idea that the goal here is to consider tennis as an illustration
of the PCT view of the interaction between two individual control
systems I would focus on the interaction part; and I would make it as
simple as possible. The main controlled variable involved in the
interaction of the two players is probably the one you describe as
"Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s court one more
time than the other person". Both players are controlling this
variable but with opposite references, which puts them in conflict.

To make this simpler to model quantitatively, I will define the
controlled variable as the position of the tennis ball after it
bounces in the opponent's court. Let's say the two players are Federer
and Sampras (the only two names that come to mind; I don't even know
if they ever played each other) .Here's a simplified picture of the
situation when Federer (F) plays Sampras (S):

          F S
   -10 -5 0 5 10

The numbers are measures of yards from the net (the 0 position); -5
is F's outside line and 5 is S's. To win a point, F must bounce the
ball past S's outside and S must bounce it past F. So I'll assume
that F's reference for the controlled variable (ball position) is 10
and S's is -10. Since the two players are controlling the same
variable relative to different references, there is a conflict.

I have cobbled together a little spreadsheet model of this conflict
which is attached. To "run" it, just hit F9; each press of F9 can be
thought of as a game (4 games for a set; 3 sets for a match; you know
the drill;-). When the controlled variable (cv) ends up positive, the
game goes to F (because his reference for the ball is positive); when
it ends up negative, the game goes to S. The simulation starts with
the gains (skill levels) of the two players (gain F and gain S in the
spreadsheet) exactly equal. So whether S or F wins (whether the cv
ends up positive or negative on after each game) depends mainly on the
state of the random disturbance (which can be though of as wind
direction, I suppose).

If you count the number of wins for S and F after each game you should
end up with a draw (in the long run). If you increase the gain (skill)
slightly for F or S (for example, change F's gain value from 10 to
10.2) you will see that the person with the higher gain now wins more
often. If the gain for one player is much higher than that for the
other, then that player always wins (which would be what would happen
if either of those guys played me;-)

I know this is a pretty simple minded model but I think it captures
the essentials of the kind of conflictual interaction that occurs in a
game like tennis.

Best

Rick

Tennis.xls (13.5 KB)

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-excel; name="Tennis.xls"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Tennis.xls"
X-Attachment-Id: f_grtwkhsw0

Dear Rick, Kenny and Carol,

[From David Goldstein (2011.08.27.0346 EDT)]
About Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

Cool Rick.
Can you please explain the equations.
Also, if only the disturbance is acting, what does the cv mean?
Also, if we were going to observe a tennis match, how would we measure the
gain of F and S independent of o?

Your facts about tennis are a little off.

Please note:

Tennis Rules Simplified
The rules of tennis are quite simple. The game itself is complex. "
Rule 1. Opponents stand on opposite sides of the court. The player who
delivers the ball to start the point is called the server. The player who
stands opposite and cross-court from the server is the receiver.

Rule 2. The right to serve, receive, choose your side, or give the opponent
these choices is decided by a toss of a coin or racquet. If the choice of
service or receiver is chosen, the opponent chooses which side to start.

Rule 3. The server shall stand behind the baseline on the deuce court within
the boundaries of the singles court when playing singles and within the
doubles sideline when playing doubles. See court dimensions. All even points
are played from the deuce court and odd number points played from the
advantage court. The server shall not serve until the receiver is ready.
Serves are made from the deuce court to the opponents service box on the
deuce court. Advantage court to advantage box. If the server misses his
target twice, he loses the point. If the ball hits the net and goes in the
correct service box, another serve is granted. If the server steps on the
baseline before contact is made, the serve is deemed a fault.

Rule 4. The receiver is deemed ready if an attempt is made to return the
server's ball. The receiver can stand where he likes but must let the ball
bounce in the service box. If the ball does not land in the service box, it
is deemed a fault and a second serve is given. If the ball is hit by either
opponent before the ball bounces, the server wins the point.

Rule 5. The server always calls his score first. If the server wins the
first point, he gets a score of 15. Scoring is done like a clock. See
example below. Love means zero in tennis. The second point is called 30. The
third point is called 45 (now-a-days known as 40) and game is won when the
score goes back to love. If the score is 40-40, also known as deuce, one
side must win by two points. Advantage-In means if the server wins the next
point, he wins the game. Advantage-Out means the receiver has a chance to
win the game on the next point.

LOVE 15-30-40

Rule 5. After the game, the opponents serve. Games equal 1. The first to win
6 games, by two, wins the set. The first to win 2 sets wins the match. If
the score is 6-6, a tie-breaker is played. This is scored by one's. The
first team to score 7 points winning by two wins the set. The tiebreaker
continues until one side wins by two. Hence, Game-Set-Match.

Rule 6. If the ball goes into the net, or outside the boundaries of the
court, the player who hit that ball loses the point. If the ball hits the
net during the point and goes into the opponents court, the ball is in play.
A player loses the point if he touches the net, drops his racquet while
hitting the ball, bounces the ball over the net, hits a part of the
surroundings such as the roof, or a tree, the ball touches him or his
partner, he deliberately tries to distract the opponent.

Rule 7. A let is called during the point if a ball rolls on the court or
there is a distraction from someone besides the players on the court.

Rule 8. A ball that lands on the line is good.

Rule 9. If players serve out of turn or serve to the wrong person or court,
the point or game will stand and order will be resumed following the point
or game.

The dimensions of an actual tennis court are shown in the attached jpg file.

David

tennis court.jpg

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Marken
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 9:30 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)

DG: Dear Carol and Kenny:
Here is my first try--

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

DG: Controlled Variables—Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and
in the other person’s
court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get
exercise; follow a
strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person

I think these are certainly reasonable possibilities. But going with
the idea that the goal here is to consider tennis as an illustration
of the PCT view of the interaction between two individual control
systems I would focus on the interaction part; and I would make it as
simple as possible. The main controlled variable involved in the
interaction of the two players is probably the one you describe as
"Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s court one more
time than the other person". Both players are controlling this
variable but with opposite references, which puts them in conflict.

To make this simpler to model quantitatively, I will define the
controlled variable as the position of the tennis ball after it
bounces in the opponent's court. Let's say the two players are Federer
and Sampras (the only two names that come to mind; I don't even know
if they ever played each other) .Here's a simplified picture of the
situation when Federer (F) plays Sampras (S):

          F S
   -10 -5 0 5 10

The numbers are measures of yards from the net (the 0 position); -5
is F's outside line and 5 is S's. To win a point, F must bounce the
ball past S's outside and S must bounce it past F. So I'll assume
that F's reference for the controlled variable (ball position) is 10
and S's is -10. Since the two players are controlling the same
variable relative to different references, there is a conflict.

I have cobbled together a little spreadsheet model of this conflict
which is attached. To "run" it, just hit F9; each press of F9 can be
thought of as a game (4 games for a set; 3 sets for a match; you know
the drill;-). When the controlled variable (cv) ends up positive, the
game goes to F (because his reference for the ball is positive); when
it ends up negative, the game goes to S. The simulation starts with
the gains (skill levels) of the two players (gain F and gain S in the
spreadsheet) exactly equal. So whether S or F wins (whether the cv
ends up positive or negative on after each game) depends mainly on the
state of the random disturbance (which can be though of as wind
direction, I suppose).

If you count the number of wins for S and F after each game you should
end up with a draw (in the long run). If you increase the gain (skill)
slightly for F or S (for example, change F's gain value from 10 to
10.2) you will see that the person with the higher gain now wins more
often. If the gain for one player is much higher than that for the
other, then that player always wins (which would be what would happen
if either of those guys played me;-)

I know this is a pretty simple minded model but I think it captures
the essentials of the kind of conflictual interaction that occurs in a
game like tennis.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

bob.hintz (2011.08.27)

Do you want to consider how the game is different when there is no third party making the calls regarding nets, lets, in bounds, etc.? There is an element of trust required when only two players are involved. I believe the receiver gets to make the calls on his own side of the court. Disagreement about calls is always possible even with a third-party making them and involves additional rules (perhaps meta-rules regarding the application of game rules). Some individuals will not play with some others because of past experience in this regard.

The concept of “ready” is important at the beginning of each point. Some players are very slow, while others are very fast. Differences in this regard can drive people crazy. Servers must wait until receivers are ready and receivers must wait until servers hit the ball. I don’t know if receivers can back off if servers take too much time, like batters in baseball can step out of the batter’s box to halt the game.

Just some initial thoughts on the interpersonal aspects of the game

bob

···

On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 AM, David Goldstein davidmg@verizon.net wrote:

Dear Rick, Kenny and Carol,

[From David Goldstein (2011.08.27.0346 EDT)]

About Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

Cool Rick.

Can you please explain the equations.

Also, if only the disturbance is acting, what does the cv mean?

Also, if we were going to observe a tennis match, how would we measure the gain of F and S independent of o?

Your facts about tennis are a little off.

Please note:

Tennis Rules Simplified

The rules of tennis are quite simple. The game itself is complex. "

Rule 1. Opponents stand on opposite sides of the court. The player who delivers the ball to start the point is called the server. The player who stands opposite and cross-court from the server is the receiver.

Rule 2. The right to serve, receive, choose your side, or give the opponent these choices is decided by a toss of a coin or racquet. If the choice of service or receiver is chosen, the opponent chooses which side to start.

Rule 3. The server shall stand behind the baseline on the deuce court within the boundaries of the singles court when playing singles and within the doubles sideline when playing doubles. See court dimensions. All even points are played from the deuce court and odd number points played from the advantage court. The server shall not serve until the receiver is ready. Serves are made from the deuce court to the opponents service box on the deuce court. Advantage court to advantage box. If the server misses his target twice, he loses the point. If the ball hits the net and goes in the correct service box, another serve is granted. If the server steps on the baseline before contact is made, the serve is deemed a fault.

Rule 4. The receiver is deemed ready if an attempt is made to return the server’s ball. The receiver can stand where he likes but must let the ball bounce in the service box. If the ball does not land in the service box, it is deemed a fault and a second serve is given. If the ball is hit by either opponent before the ball bounces, the server wins the point.

Rule 5. The server always calls his score first. If the server wins the first point, he gets a score of 15. Scoring is done like a clock. See example below. Love means zero in tennis. The second point is called 30. The third point is called 45 (now-a-days known as 40) and game is won when the score goes back to love. If the score is 40-40, also known as deuce, one side must win by two points. Advantage-In means if the server wins the next point, he wins the game. Advantage-Out means the receiver has a chance to win the game on the next point.

LOVE 15-30-40

Rule 5. After the game, the opponents serve. Games equal 1. The first to win 6 games, by two, wins the set. The first to win 2 sets wins the match. If the score is 6-6, a tie-breaker is played. This is scored by one’s. The first team to score 7 points winning by two wins the set. The tiebreaker continues until one side wins by two. Hence, Game-Set-Match.

Rule 6. If the ball goes into the net, or outside the boundaries of the court, the player who hit that ball loses the point. If the ball hits the net during the point and goes into the opponents court, the ball is in play. A player loses the point if he touches the net, drops his racquet while hitting the ball, bounces the ball over the net, hits a part of the surroundings such as the roof, or a tree, the ball touches him or his partner, he deliberately tries to distract the opponent.

Rule 7. A let is called during the point if a ball rolls on the court or there is a distraction from someone besides the players on the court.

Rule 8. A ball that lands on the line is good.

Rule 9. If players serve out of turn or serve to the wrong person or court, the point or game will stand and order will be resumed following the point or game.

The dimensions of an actual tennis court are shown in the attached jpg file.

David

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Marken

Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 9:30 PM

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)

DG: Dear Carol and Kenny:

Here is my first try–

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

DG: Controlled Variables—Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s

court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get exercise; follow a

strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person

I think these are certainly reasonable possibilities. But going with

the idea that the goal here is to consider tennis as an illustration

of the PCT view of the interaction between two individual control

systems I would focus on the interaction part; and I would make it as

simple as possible. The main controlled variable involved in the

interaction of the two players is probably the one you describe as

"Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s court one more

time than the other person". Both players are controlling this

variable but with opposite references, which puts them in conflict.

To make this simpler to model quantitatively, I will define the

controlled variable as the position of the tennis ball after it

bounces in the opponent’s court. Let’s say the two players are Federer

and Sampras (the only two names that come to mind; I don’t even know

if they ever played each other) .Here’s a simplified picture of the

situation when Federer (F) plays Sampras (S):

     F                        S

-10 -5 0 5 10

The numbers are measures of yards from the net (the 0 position); -5

is F’s outside line and 5 is S’s. To win a point, F must bounce the

ball past S’s outside and S must bounce it past F. So I’ll assume

that F’s reference for the controlled variable (ball position) is 10

and S’s is -10. Since the two players are controlling the same

variable relative to different references, there is a conflict.

I have cobbled together a little spreadsheet model of this conflict

which is attached. To “run” it, just hit F9; each press of F9 can be

thought of as a game (4 games for a set; 3 sets for a match; you know

the drill;-). When the controlled variable (cv) ends up positive, the

game goes to F (because his reference for the ball is positive); when

it ends up negative, the game goes to S. The simulation starts with

the gains (skill levels) of the two players (gain F and gain S in the

spreadsheet) exactly equal. So whether S or F wins (whether the cv

ends up positive or negative on after each game) depends mainly on the

state of the random disturbance (which can be though of as wind

direction, I suppose).

If you count the number of wins for S and F after each game you should

end up with a draw (in the long run). If you increase the gain (skill)

slightly for F or S (for example, change F’s gain value from 10 to

10.2) you will see that the person with the higher gain now wins more

often. If the gain for one player is much higher than that for the

other, then that player always wins (which would be what would happen

if either of those guys played me;-)

I know this is a pretty simple minded model but I think it captures

the essentials of the kind of conflictual interaction that occurs in a

game like tennis.

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.27.1000)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.27.0346 EDT)--
Cool Rick.
Can you please explain the equations.

Sure. The equations in row p sets the perception for each player to
the value of the cv (in cell C6). The equations in row e compute the
error signals for each player: r - p. The equations in row o compute
the outputs for each player as a leaky integration of the error
signal: o = o + slow*(gain*e-o). The value of the cv (in cell C6) is
the sum of the outputs of the two players plus the value of the
prevailing disturbance: cv = oF+oS+d

Also, if only the disturbance is acting, what does the cv mean?

The cv is the position of the ball, which is influence by the outputs
of both players as well as by the disturbance. Among the simplifying
assumptions in this simulation is that players have simultaneous
effects on the ball (as in a tug of war); a better simulation (which
would be hard to put into a spreadsheet but could be written in visual
basic) would have the position of the ball affected by each player
only when the ball arrived on that player's side. But then we're
getting into some relatively serious modeling, for which I don't
really have time now. But it might be something you would like to do
as an exercise while waiting for Irene to hit.

Also, if we were going to observe a tennis match, how would we measure the
gain of F and S independent of o?

Precise measures would be impossible. But if one player clearly
dominated the other you could certainly infer that the dominating
player's gain was higher than that of the loser.

Your facts about tennis are a little off.

I was trying to make simplifying assumptions. If you want to write a
model for a real tennis game, incorporating all the rules and physics,
be my guest! I prefer Galileo's approach; try to abstract out the
essence and test that.

Best

Rick

···

Please note:

Tennis Rules Simplified
The rules of tennis are quite simple. The game itself is complex. "
Rule 1. Opponents stand on opposite sides of the court. The player who
delivers the ball to start the point is called the server. The player who
stands opposite and cross-court from the server is the receiver.

Rule 2. The right to serve, receive, choose your side, or give the opponent
these choices is decided by a toss of a coin or racquet. If the choice of
service or receiver is chosen, the opponent chooses which side to start.

Rule 3. The server shall stand behind the baseline on the deuce court within
the boundaries of the singles court when playing singles and within the
doubles sideline when playing doubles. See court dimensions. All even points
are played from the deuce court and odd number points played from the
advantage court. The server shall not serve until the receiver is ready.
Serves are made from the deuce court to the opponents service box on the
deuce court. Advantage court to advantage box. If the server misses his
target twice, he loses the point. If the ball hits the net and goes in the
correct service box, another serve is granted. If the server steps on the
baseline before contact is made, the serve is deemed a fault.

Rule 4. The receiver is deemed ready if an attempt is made to return the
server's ball. The receiver can stand where he likes but must let the ball
bounce in the service box. If the ball does not land in the service box, it
is deemed a fault and a second serve is given. If the ball is hit by either
opponent before the ball bounces, the server wins the point.

Rule 5. The server always calls his score first. If the server wins the
first point, he gets a score of 15. Scoring is done like a clock. See
example below. Love means zero in tennis. The second point is called 30. The
third point is called 45 (now-a-days known as 40) and game is won when the
score goes back to love. If the score is 40-40, also known as deuce, one
side must win by two points. Advantage-In means if the server wins the next
point, he wins the game. Advantage-Out means the receiver has a chance to
win the game on the next point.

LOVE 15-30-40

Rule 5. After the game, the opponents serve. Games equal 1. The first to win
6 games, by two, wins the set. The first to win 2 sets wins the match. If
the score is 6-6, a tie-breaker is played. This is scored by one's. The
first team to score 7 points winning by two wins the set. The tiebreaker
continues until one side wins by two. Hence, Game-Set-Match.

Rule 6. If the ball goes into the net, or outside the boundaries of the
court, the player who hit that ball loses the point. If the ball hits the
net during the point and goes into the opponents court, the ball is in play.
A player loses the point if he touches the net, drops his racquet while
hitting the ball, bounces the ball over the net, hits a part of the
surroundings such as the roof, or a tree, the ball touches him or his
partner, he deliberately tries to distract the opponent.

Rule 7. A let is called during the point if a ball rolls on the court or
there is a distraction from someone besides the players on the court.

Rule 8. A ball that lands on the line is good.

Rule 9. If players serve out of turn or serve to the wrong person or court,
the point or game will stand and order will be resumed following the point
or game.

The dimensions of an actual tennis court are shown in the attached jpg file.

David

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Marken
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 9:30 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)

DG: �Dear Carol and Kenny:
Here is my first try--

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

DG: Controlled Variables�Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and
in the other person�s
court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get
exercise; follow a
strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person

I think these are certainly reasonable possibilities. But going with
the idea that the goal here is to consider �tennis as an illustration
of the PCT view of the interaction between two individual control
systems I would focus on the interaction part; and I �would make it as
simple as possible. The main controlled variable involved in the
interaction of the two players is probably the one you describe as
"Hit the ball over the net and in the other person�s court one more
time than the other person". Both players are controlling this
variable but with opposite references, which puts them in conflict.

To make this simpler to model quantitatively, I will define the
controlled variable as the position of the tennis ball after it
bounces in the opponent's court. Let's say the two players are Federer
and Sampras (the only two names that come to mind; I don't even know
if they ever played each other) .Here's a simplified picture of the
situation when Federer (F) plays Sampras (S):

� � � � F � � � � � � � � � � � �S
�-10 � � -5 � � �0 � � �5 � � 10

The numbers are measures of yards from the net �(the 0 position); -5
is F's outside line and 5 is S's. �To win a point, F must bounce the
ball past S's outside and S must bounce it past F. �So I'll assume
that F's reference for the controlled variable (ball position) is 10
and S's is -10. �Since the two players are controlling the same
variable relative to different references, there is a conflict.

I have cobbled together a little spreadsheet model of this conflict
which is attached. To "run" it, just hit F9; each press of F9 can be
thought of as a game (4 games for a set; 3 sets for a match; you know
the drill;-). When the controlled variable (cv) ends up positive, the
game goes to F (because his reference for the ball is positive); when
it ends up negative, the game goes to S. The simulation starts with
the gains (skill levels) of the two players (gain F and gain S in the
spreadsheet) exactly equal. So whether S or F wins (whether the cv
ends up positive or negative on after each game) depends mainly on the
state of the random disturbance (which can be though of as wind
direction, I suppose).

If you count the number of wins for S and F after each game you should
end up with a draw (in the long run). If you increase the gain (skill)
slightly for F or S (for example, change F's gain value from 10 to
10.2) you will see that the person with the higher gain now wins more
often. If the gain for one player is much higher than that for the
other, then that player always wins (which would be what would happen
if either of those guys played me;-)

I know this is a pretty simple minded model but I think it captures
the essentials of the kind of conflictual interaction that occurs in a
game like tennis.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

(Gavin Ritz 2011.08.28.17.33NZT)
[From Rick Marken (2011.08.27.1000)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.27.0346 EDT)--
Cool Rick.
Can you please explain the equations.

GR: May I also get a copy of the spreadsheet with the equations please.

Sure. The equations in row p sets the perception for each player to
the value of the cv (in cell C6). The equations in row e compute the
error signals for each player: r - p. The equations in row o compute
the outputs for each player as a leaky integration of the error
signal: o = o + slow*(gain*e-o). The value of the cv (in cell C6) is
the sum of the outputs of the two players plus the value of the
prevailing disturbance: cv = oF+oS+d

Also, if only the disturbance is acting, what does the cv mean?

The cv is the position of the ball, which is influence by the outputs
of both players as well as by the disturbance.

GR: Can I get a diagram of this please?

Among the simplifying
assumptions in this simulation is that players have simultaneous
effects on the ball (as in a tug of war); a better simulation (which
would be hard to put into a spreadsheet but could be written in visual
basic) would have the position of the ball affected by each player
only when the ball arrived on that player's side. But then we're
getting into some relatively serious modeling, for which I don't
really have time now. But it might be something you would like to do
as an exercise while waiting for Irene to hit.

Also, if we were going to observe a tennis match, how would we measure the
gain of F and S independent of o?

Precise measures would be impossible. But if one player clearly
dominated the other you could certainly infer that the dominating
player's gain was higher than that of the loser.

Your facts about tennis are a little off.

I was trying to make simplifying assumptions. If you want to write a
model for a real tennis game, incorporating all the rules and physics,
be my guest! I prefer Galileo's approach; try to abstract out the
essence and test that.

Best

Rick

Please note:

Tennis Rules Simplified
The rules of tennis are quite simple. The game itself is complex. "
Rule 1. Opponents stand on opposite sides of the court. The player who
delivers the ball to start the point is called the server. The player who
stands opposite and cross-court from the server is the receiver.

Rule 2. The right to serve, receive, choose your side, or give the

opponent

these choices is decided by a toss of a coin or racquet. If the choice of
service or receiver is chosen, the opponent chooses which side to start.

Rule 3. The server shall stand behind the baseline on the deuce court

within

the boundaries of the singles court when playing singles and within the
doubles sideline when playing doubles. See court dimensions. All even

points

are played from the deuce court and odd number points played from the
advantage court. The server shall not serve until the receiver is ready.
Serves are made from the deuce court to the opponents service box on the
deuce court. Advantage court to advantage box. If the server misses his
target twice, he loses the point. If the ball hits the net and goes in the
correct service box, another serve is granted. If the server steps on the
baseline before contact is made, the serve is deemed a fault.

Rule 4. The receiver is deemed ready if an attempt is made to return the
server's ball. The receiver can stand where he likes but must let the ball
bounce in the service box. If the ball does not land in the service box,

it

is deemed a fault and a second serve is given. If the ball is hit by

either

opponent before the ball bounces, the server wins the point.

Rule 5. The server always calls his score first. If the server wins the
first point, he gets a score of 15. Scoring is done like a clock. See
example below. Love means zero in tennis. The second point is called 30.

The

third point is called 45 (now-a-days known as 40) and game is won when the
score goes back to love. If the score is 40-40, also known as deuce, one
side must win by two points. Advantage-In means if the server wins the

next

point, he wins the game. Advantage-Out means the receiver has a chance to
win the game on the next point.

LOVE 15-30-40

Rule 5. After the game, the opponents serve. Games equal 1. The first to

win

6 games, by two, wins the set. The first to win 2 sets wins the match. If
the score is 6-6, a tie-breaker is played. This is scored by one's. The
first team to score 7 points winning by two wins the set. The tiebreaker
continues until one side wins by two. Hence, Game-Set-Match.

Rule 6. If the ball goes into the net, or outside the boundaries of the
court, the player who hit that ball loses the point. If the ball hits the
net during the point and goes into the opponents court, the ball is in

play.

A player loses the point if he touches the net, drops his racquet while
hitting the ball, bounces the ball over the net, hits a part of the
surroundings such as the roof, or a tree, the ball touches him or his
partner, he deliberately tries to distract the opponent.

Rule 7. A let is called during the point if a ball rolls on the court or
there is a distraction from someone besides the players on the court.

Rule 8. A ball that lands on the line is good.

Rule 9. If players serve out of turn or serve to the wrong person or

court,

the point or game will stand and order will be resumed following the point
or game.

The dimensions of an actual tennis court are shown in the attached jpg

file.

···

David

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Marken
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 9:30 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.26.1830)]

David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)

DG: �Dear Carol and Kenny:
Here is my first try--

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

DG: Controlled Variables�Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and
in the other person�s
court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get
exercise; follow a
strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person

I think these are certainly reasonable possibilities. But going with
the idea that the goal here is to consider �tennis as an illustration
of the PCT view of the interaction between two individual control
systems I would focus on the interaction part; and I �would make it as
simple as possible. The main controlled variable involved in the
interaction of the two players is probably the one you describe as
"Hit the ball over the net and in the other person�s court one more
time than the other person". Both players are controlling this
variable but with opposite references, which puts them in conflict.

To make this simpler to model quantitatively, I will define the
controlled variable as the position of the tennis ball after it
bounces in the opponent's court. Let's say the two players are Federer
and Sampras (the only two names that come to mind; I don't even know
if they ever played each other) .Here's a simplified picture of the
situation when Federer (F) plays Sampras (S):

� � � � F � � � � � � � � � � � �S
�-10 � � -5 � � �0 � � �5 � � 10

The numbers are measures of yards from the net �(the 0 position); -5
is F's outside line and 5 is S's. �To win a point, F must bounce the
ball past S's outside and S must bounce it past F. �So I'll assume
that F's reference for the controlled variable (ball position) is 10
and S's is -10. �Since the two players are controlling the same
variable relative to different references, there is a conflict.

I have cobbled together a little spreadsheet model of this conflict
which is attached. To "run" it, just hit F9; each press of F9 can be
thought of as a game (4 games for a set; 3 sets for a match; you know
the drill;-). When the controlled variable (cv) ends up positive, the
game goes to F (because his reference for the ball is positive); when
it ends up negative, the game goes to S. The simulation starts with
the gains (skill levels) of the two players (gain F and gain S in the
spreadsheet) exactly equal. So whether S or F wins (whether the cv
ends up positive or negative on after each game) depends mainly on the
state of the random disturbance (which can be though of as wind
direction, I suppose).

If you count the number of wins for S and F after each game you should
end up with a draw (in the long run). If you increase the gain (skill)
slightly for F or S (for example, change F's gain value from 10 to
10.2) you will see that the person with the higher gain now wins more
often. If the gain for one player is much higher than that for the
other, then that player always wins (which would be what would happen
if either of those guys played me;-)

I know this is a pretty simple minded model but I think it captures
the essentials of the kind of conflictual interaction that occurs in a
game like tennis.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com



Hi David !

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
David Goldstein

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:30 AM

Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[David Goldstein (2011.08.26.1828 EDT)]

Dear Carol and Kenny:

Here is my first try–

The Game of Tennis from a PCT view

Controlled Variables—Play by the rules; Hit the ball over the net and in the other person’s court one more time than the other person; have fun; socialize; get exercise; follow a strategy based on the specific knowledge about the other person.

I think that problem with Rick lies maybe in the dual nature of Tennis game as probably with any other game.Your “first try” definition above is a little tricky. I’ll try to explain what I think you should make more clear.

You wrote several goals of Tennis game that can be by my oppinion devided among people (so different people can have different goals from your list, why playing Tennis ) or the goals y ou mentioned can be aranged hierarchically in one person. By arranging goals we can probably get several possible reasons why people play Tennis.

If you have in mind “Competition Tennis” then main goal is probaly to win and earn money and other goals can be subordered to the main goal. So behaviors that are subordered to this goal can look like : training (technic, tactics), physical condition, psychical training and so on. This takes 5-8 hours a day and all the life (food, work, rest, slippnig…) is mostly subordered to main startegic goal of winning. I suppose that Rick had in mind this kind of Tennis as simulation and some modeling of the game usually come into players plans of trainning when perfecting the game to win. So if I understood Rick right he wanted to make some modeling of Tennis as PCT analysis. Although his analysis is very simple and in this form useless for any serious talk, I think he can improve it during the discussion if there will be any. I don’t know if he is still playing some similar game to Tennis (I forget the name), bu I know he is very good in using experiances from the “Racket games” and putting them into PCT analysis, as we had quite long conversation some 5 years ago. Well I don’t know, maybe he starts to play Tennis in meanwhile :slight_smile:

If you have in mind Recreatioal Tennis, things are mostly different, although there we can find people with the same goal as Competitive Tennis players : to win. But what is meant here to win ? Does it have the same meanning as in Compettiive Tennis ? I met also many people who play Tennis, as you mentioned, because of fun, socialization, widening social net (knowing new people), doing exrcise for helth, going to drink after Tennis in pub, etc. They train once or twice a week or no training at all. They are probably employed and they go usually in weekends to play with friends. So following all kind of other goals as main, puts the goal of winning in subordered position if there is any winning spirit. The purpose of the game is different.

I see the point of winning in Recreational Tennis somehow useless, as people are not training enough to become fast enough, with strong and precise shots, to perform any of top Tennis tactics to win in the game with serious players. So they probably play with friends and they maybe enjoy beating them. But I still didn’t find out what’s the sense of beating someone they know. To talk arroung how good they are ? That could feet the control nature of human.

I think that b ehavior (actions) in both cases will be different as will follow from different goals or better “perceptual error”, so there can be huge differences in what we are talking about. So what did you mean by your proposal ? I think that in any case we have to start from position of goal directed behavior as control of perception as that is probably the essence of PCT. Maybe Bill could say something ?.

Best,

Boris

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.28.0920)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.08.28.17.33NZT)

David Goldstein (2011.08.27.0346 EDT)--
Cool Rick.
Can you please explain the equations.

GR: May I also get a copy of the spreadsheet with the equations please.

I attached it to the earlier post but here it is again.

RSM

Tennis1.xls (13.5 KB)

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-excel; name="Tennis.xls"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Tennis.xls"
X-Attachment-Id: f_grw82upk0

(Gavin Ritz 2011.08.28.11.29NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.08.28.0920)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.08.28.17.33NZT)

David Goldstein (2011.08.27.0346 EDT)–

Cool Rick.

Can you please explain the equations.

GR: May I also get a copy of the spreadsheet with
the equations please.

I attached it to the earlier post but here it is
again.

Thank you.

What I don’t understand
is this. How come there is only one controlled variable and one disturbance for
both players. If this is the case then the integrity of the control system
seems to break down.

Should there not be separate
controlled variables for each player and hence each one has a separate disturbance.
So the integrity of each control system (tennis player) is maintained. In that
model the feedback loop looks like it’s lost.

How can the cv be the
addition of outputs and a single disturbance. This assumes both disturbances of
each player is identical.

I guess I don’t understand
PCT well enough.

This model makes no sense
too me.

Regards

Gavin

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.29.1630)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.08.28.11.29NZT)

Rick Marken (2011.08.28.0920)--

RM: I attached it to the earlier post but here it is again.

GR: Thank you.

GR: What I don’t understand is this. How come there is only one controlled
variable and one disturbance for both players.

That's because the controlled variable is each player's perceptual
signal. The variable labelled cv is actually an environmental
variable, qi, the position of the ball. Since the perceptual signal
for each player was equivalent to qi in the simulation (a physical
impossibility), I called qi the cv, which is misleading.

I have changed the simulation a bit to make the distinction between
controlled variable and environmental variable clear. The new
simulation is attached. The main change is that I have labelled ball
position -- the environmental variable -- qi. Each player controls a
different perceptual function of qi.

I have assumed that the players are perceiving the visual angle made
by the ball as it travels towards or away from them. The angle is
computed as the arc tangent of the tangent of the ball's optical
position. It's assumed that the ball moves in a straight line 4 ft
above the ground toward the player (no gravity) and that each player
stands 12 yards from the net on opposite sides of the court. So the
tangent of the ball's position relative to player F is 4/(12-qi),where
4 is the length of the opposite and 12-qi the length of the adjacent
side of the right triangle with the player at the the point where
adjacent and hypotenuse meet. The tangent of the ball's position
relative to palyer S is 4/(-12-qi); the difference is only in the
field location of each player; F is at position 12; S is at position
-12. So the controlled variables are the arc tangents of the two
tangents (the perceptual functions for these cvs are shown in the
spreadsheet, where C16 is the location of variable qi).

So each player controls a different controlled variable but _both_ are
functions of the _same_ environmental variable (qi, representing ball
position). The cv for player F is

pF= cvF = ATAN(4/(12-qi))

and the cv for player S is

pS= cvS = ATAN(4/(-12-qi))

There is one disturbance that influences the one environmental
variable. The disturbance can be thought of as a randomly changing
wind that affects the position of the ball independent of the actions
of the two players (control systems).

The reference values for each player have been changed to reflect the
fact that the variable being controlled is an angle (in radians, so
it's range is from 1 to 2 pi). The reference for player F is for a
small positive angle, which will send the ball deep into player S's
territory; the reference for player S is also for a small angle but
the negative sign means that if this perception were achieved it would
put the ball deep into player F's territory.

The simulation is still unrealistic because it assumes that both
players have simultaneous effects on the ball; more like (American)
football than tennis with qi being the line of scrimmage and the
outputs being the force exerted in opposite directions by the linemen.
But if there is any serious interest I might write a program (in
Visual Basic in Excel, which would leave those of you with certain
versions of Excel -- I think it's 2007 out) where the players take
alternate hits at the ball.

GR: If this is the case then the
integrity of the control system seems to break down.

The "integrity" of the control systems in the original simulation was
just fine, in the sense that both systems were controlling; only the
conflict prevented these systems from reaching their goals
(references). The main problem with the original simulation was that
it assumed that both systems perceived the environment in exactly the
same way, so they were both controlling exactly the same variable.
That is unrealistic but not incorrect control system design; the
systems controlled.

RSM

Tennis2.xls (15 KB)

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-excel; name="Tennis2.xls"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Tennis2.xls"
X-Attachment-Id: f_gry2vuhg0

(Gavin Ritz 2011.08.31.9.34NZT)

[From Rick Marken
(2011.08.29.1630)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.08.28.11.29NZT)

Rick Marken (2011.08.28.0920)—

GR: can you please give
me a diagram for your model. I would really appreciate that. I think it’s
a very important model, because this is no different to an economic relationship,
between two people.

RM: I attached it to the earlier post but here
it is again.

GR: Thank you.

GR: What I don’t understand is this.
How come there is only one controlled

variable and one disturbance for both players.

That’s because the controlled variable is each
player’s perceptual

signal. The variable labelled cv is actually an
environmental

variable, qi, the position of the ball. Since
the perceptual signal

for each player was equivalent to qi in the simulation
(a physical

impossibility), I called qi the cv, which is
misleading.

I have changed the simulation a bit to make the
distinction between

controlled variable and environmental variable clear.
The new

simulation is attached. The main change is that I have
labelled ball

position – the environmental variable – qi. Each
player controls a

different perceptual function of qi.

I have assumed that the players are perceiving the
visual angle made

by the ball as it travels towards or away from them.
The angle is

computed as the arc tangent of the tangent of the
ball’s optical

position. It’s assumed that the ball moves in a
straight line 4 ft

above the ground toward the player (no gravity) and
that each player

stands 12 yards from the net on opposite sides of the
court. So the

tangent of the ball’s position relative to player F is
4/(12-qi),where

4 is the length of the opposite and 12-qi the length
of the adjacent

side of the right triangle with the player at
the the point where

adjacent and hypotenuse meet. The tangent of the
ball’s position

relative to palyer S is 4/(-12-qi); the difference is only
in the

field location of each player; F is at position 12; S
is at position

-12. So the controlled variables are the arc
tangents of the two

tangents (the perceptual functions for these cvs are
shown in the

spreadsheet, where C16 is the location of variable
qi).

So each player controls a different controlled
variable but both are

functions of the same environmental variable (qi,
representing ball

position). The cv for player F is

pF= cvF = ATAN(4/(12-qi))

and the cv for player S is

pS= cvS = ATAN(4/(-12-qi))

There is one disturbance that influences the one
environmental

variable. The disturbance can be thought of as a
randomly changing

wind that affects the position of the ball independent
of the actions

of the two players (control systems).

The reference values for each player have been changed
to reflect the

fact that the variable being controlled is an angle
(in radians, so

it’s range is from 1 to 2 pi). The reference for
player F is for a

small positive angle, which will send the ball deep
into player S’s

territory; the reference for player S is also for a
small angle but

the negative sign means that if this perception were
achieved it would

put the ball deep into player F’s territory.

The simulation is still unrealistic because it assumes
that both

players have simultaneous effects on the ball; more
like (American)

football than tennis with qi being the line of
scrimmage and the

outputs being the force exerted in opposite directions
by the linemen.

But if there is any serious interest I might write a
program (in

Visual Basic in Excel, which would leave those of you
with certain

versions of Excel – I think it’s 2007 out) where the
players take

alternate hits at the ball.

GR: If this is the case then the

integrity of the control system seems to break
down.

The “integrity” of the control systems in
the original simulation was

just fine, in the sense that both systems were
controlling; only the

conflict prevented these systems from reaching their
goals

(references). The main problem with the original
simulation was that

it assumed that both systems perceived the environment
in exactly the

same way, so they were both controlling exactly the
same variable.

That is unrealistic but not incorrect control system
design; the

systems controlled.

RSM

···

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.30.1620)]

Gavin Ritz (2011.08.31.9.34NZT)--

GR: can you please give me a diagram for your model. I would really
appreciate that. I think it’s a very important model, because this is no
different to an economic relationship, between two people.

I've re-architected the spreadsheet so that the control systems are
arranged as in the conventional PCT diagrams and and inserted labels
and arrows. This was the easiest way to do it using a spreadsheet; I
think it should be clear.

What we have here is simply two separate input control systems acting
(swinging tennis racquets) on the same environmental variable (the
tennis ball's position), and trying to get that ball's position (as
perceived) into two different reference states; the different
reference states for the perception imply two different physical
states for the ball (qi), so there is a conflict. Each system is
acting to bring the ball's position (as perceived) to two different
states.

There is nothing in this model of interacting control systems that you
could not have derived by simply understanding how any individual
control system works.

RSM

Tennis3.xls (18 KB)

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-excel; name="Tennis3.xls"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Tennis3.xls"
X-Attachment-Id: f_grzi006f0

...the different reference states for the perception imply two different
physical states for the ball (qi), so there is a conflict. Each system is
acting to bring the ball's position (as perceived) to two different
states.

Hi Rick,

quite interesting view point you opened

I think that you are doing fine in simplifying the understanding of tennis
game, although this form is not yet enough to really understand the essence
of it. And there is one thing about your explanation that I didn't
understand quite well. You know my American ...:))

Is everything what you wrote above happening in the same moment ? Is
conflict something that is happening in the same moment ?

Best,

Boris

···

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:18:59 -0700, Richard Marken <rsmarken@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.31.1120)]

BH: I think that you are doing fine in simplifying the understanding of tennis
game, although this form is not yet enough to really understand the essence
of it.

It seems to me I'm capturing the essence but not the "frills" (the
higher level goals like strategy and reasons for playing at all).

BH: And there is one thing about your explanation that I didn't
understand quite well. You know my American ...:))

BH: Is everything what you wrote above happening in the same moment ? Is
conflict something that is happening in the same moment ?

Yes, everything is happening at the same time, in the sense that both
players have opposing references for the state of the ball and are
acting at the same time to bring the ball's perceived position to the
intended state. What is incorrect about the simulation is that both
players affect the ball's position simultaneously. In real tennis, of
course, one person hits the ball and then the other does. I could make
the simulation act this way; maybe I should since it may be confusing
people the way it is. But even when there is alternation in the shots,
both players are controlling for ball position at the same time, they
just can't have an effect on the ball at the same time (as in the
present simulation).

I'm beginning to think that maybe a simulation of a more realistic
tennis dual may be in order. This would mean putting physics into the
simulation, which will be a pain for a soft-headed psychologist like
me. But it may be worth the effort.

Best

Rick

···

2011/8/31 Boris Hartman <boris.hartman@masicom.net>:
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From David Goldstein(2011.08.31.1614 EDT)]

Rick,

The idea of making it sequential makes it more realistic.
Also, I was thinking that the biggest disturbance is where the other
person hits the ball, how far it is from you, whether you are fast enough to reach
the ball, what kind of spin the person puts on the ball (flat, topspin, slice). Each
person is a disturbance for the other person.

This is not taking away from the fact that we have an interpersonal conflict going with
one person winning and the other person losing a point.

David

···

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Marken
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:20 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.31.1120)]

2011/8/31 Boris Hartman <boris.hartman@masicom.net>:

BH: I think that you are doing fine in simplifying the understanding of tennis
game, although this form is not yet enough to really understand the essence
of it.

It seems to me I'm capturing the essence but not the "frills" (the
higher level goals like strategy and reasons for playing at all).

BH: And there is one thing about your explanation that I didn't
understand quite well. You know my American ...:))

BH: Is everything what you wrote above happening in the same moment ? Is
conflict something that is happening in the same moment ?

Yes, everything is happening at the same time, in the sense that both
players have opposing references for the state of the ball and are
acting at the same time to bring the ball's perceived position to the
intended state. What is incorrect about the simulation is that both
players affect the ball's position simultaneously. In real tennis, of
course, one person hits the ball and then the other does. I could make
the simulation act this way; maybe I should since it may be confusing
people the way it is. But even when there is alternation in the shots,
both players are controlling for ball position at the same time, they
just can't have an effect on the ball at the same time (as in the
present simulation).

I'm beginning to think that maybe a simulation of a more realistic
tennis dual may be in order. This would mean putting physics into the
simulation, which will be a pain for a soft-headed psychologist like
me. But it may be worth the effort.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.31.1615)

David Goldstein (2011.08.31.1614 EDT)

DG: The idea of making it sequential makes it more realistic.

Yes, of course. I guess I'll give it a try. It will require a major
rewrite, I think. But maybe it's worth it. Why don't you try it, too?

Also, I was thinking that the biggest disturbance is where the other
person hits the ball, how far it is from you, whether you are fast enough to
reach the ball, what kind of spin the person puts on the ball (flat, topspin,
slice). Each person is a disturbance for the other person.

Yes, this is true in all interpersonal conflicts (and, of course, it's
true in my little simulation). The other person's output joins with
any other prevailing environmental disturbances (like the wind) to
disturb the perception controlled by the other person. The other
person's output in a conflict is, by definition, a disturbance because
it is an effect on a controlled variable that is independent of the
actions of the controller. But whereas environmental disturbances are
random and unsystematic; the disturbance created by an opponent is
systematic -- it is actively working against your efforts to work
against it (and prevent it from affecting the state of the variable
you are controlling).

This is not taking away from the fact that we have an interpersonal conflict
going with one person winning and the other person losing a point.

It's not only not taking away from the fact that there is a conflict;
it is the essence of the conflict.

Best

Rick

···

David
-----Original Message----- From: Richard Marken
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:20 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.31.1120)]

2011/8/31 Boris Hartman <boris.hartman@masicom.net>:

BH: �I think that you are doing fine in simplifying the understanding of
tennis
game, although this form is not yet enough to really understand the
essence
of it.

It seems to me I'm capturing the essence but not the "frills" (the
higher level goals like strategy and reasons for playing at all).

BH: And there is one thing about your explanation that I didn't
understand quite well. You know my American ...:))

BH: �Is everything what you wrote above happening in the same moment ? Is
conflict something that is happening in the same moment ?

Yes, everything is happening at the same time, in the sense that both
players have opposing references for the state of the ball and are
acting at the same time to bring the ball's perceived position to the
intended state. What is incorrect about the simulation is that both
players affect the ball's position simultaneously. In real tennis, of
course, one person hits the ball and then the other does. I could make
the simulation act this way; maybe I should since it may be confusing
people the way it is. But even when there is alternation in the shots,
both players are controlling for ball position at the same time, they
just can't have an effect on the ball at the same time (as in the
present simulation).

I'm beginning to think that maybe a simulation of a more realistic
tennis dual may be in order. This would mean putting physics into the
simulation, which will be a pain for a soft-headed psychologist like
me. But it may be worth the effort.

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

bob hintz - 2011.08.31

I believe that each hit is organized not only to get the ball over the net and in bounds, but also to make it as difficult as possible for the other player to return the ball over the net and in bounds. If one has no awareness of where the other player is on the court, it becomes more difficult to achieve this second part of the reference goal. Each player is simultaneously taking the other player’s observable behavior into account as each continuously organizes his own. I have no idea how this could be included in a spreadsheet.

bob

···

On , Richard Marken rsmarken@gmail.com wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.31.1615)

David Goldstein (2011.08.31.1614 EDT)

DG: The idea of making it sequential makes it more realistic.

Yes, of course. I guess I’ll give it a try. It will require a major

rewrite, I think. But maybe it’s worth it. Why don’t you try it, too?

Also, I was thinking that the biggest disturbance is where the other

person hits the ball, how far it is from you, whether you are fast enough to

reach the ball, what kind of spin the person puts on the ball (flat, topspin,

slice). Each person is a disturbance for the other person.

Yes, this is true in all interpersonal conflicts (and, of course, it’s

true in my little simulation). The other person’s output joins with

any other prevailing environmental disturbances (like the wind) to

disturb the perception controlled by the other person. The other

person’s output in a conflict is, by definition, a disturbance because

it is an effect on a controlled variable that is independent of the

actions of the controller. But whereas environmental disturbances are

random and unsystematic; the disturbance created by an opponent is

systematic – it is actively working against your efforts to work

against it (and prevent it from affecting the state of the variable

you are controlling).

This is not taking away from the fact that we have an interpersonal conflict

going with one person winning and the other person losing a point.

It’s not only not taking away from the fact that there is a conflict;

it is the essence of the conflict.

Best

Rick

David

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Marken

Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:20 PM

To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Singles Tennis Viewed as a PCT Interaction

[From Rick Marken (2011.08.31.1120)]

2011/8/31 Boris Hartman boris.hartman@masicom.net>:

BH: I think that you are doing fine in simplifying the understanding of

tennis

game, although this form is not yet enough to really understand the

essence

of it.

It seems to me I’m capturing the essence but not the “frills” (the

higher level goals like strategy and reasons for playing at all).

BH: And there is one thing about your explanation that I didn’t

understand quite well. You know my American …:))

BH: Is everything what you wrote above happening in the same moment ? Is

conflict something that is happening in the same moment ?

Yes, everything is happening at the same time, in the sense that both

players have opposing references for the state of the ball and are

acting at the same time to bring the ball’s perceived position to the

intended state. What is incorrect about the simulation is that both

players affect the ball’s position simultaneously. In real tennis, of

course, one person hits the ball and then the other does. I could make

the simulation act this way; maybe I should since it may be confusing

people the way it is. But even when there is alternation in the shots,

both players are controlling for ball position at the same time, they

just can’t have an effect on the ball at the same time (as in the

present simulation).

I’m beginning to think that maybe a simulation of a more realistic

tennis dual may be in order. This would mean putting physics into the

simulation, which will be a pain for a soft-headed psychologist like

me. But it may be worth the effort.

Best

Rick

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com

Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com

www.mindreadings.com